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Speaking In Tongues - What Does The Bible Say About Them?

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Biblical tongues (which are in all cases "known" languages) occur curiously consistent with their intended purpose (1 Cor 14:22) as a sign and exclusively within the hearing of their intended audience (1 Cor 1:22) the Jews. Argue this till the cows come home but in the end we're talking about a "sign" gift intended for and found to have occured without exception in the presence of, spoken exclusively within the presence of and without a single Biblical exception to prove (as a sign) something to our Jewish brethren. So what we've got is, for the most part well meaning albeit Biblically niave, those who like Simon are so desirous of getting something "more", something that will gain them a moment of recognition and glory before men, that they'd pay for it, fake it, claim it, fight over it, argue vehemently for it and spend thier life focused on it rather than the Saviour. Of such mindset were the silversmiths at Ephesus (Acts 19:23-29) who bewailed any effort to threaten their beloved Diana and the spotlight which their craft cast upon them.... "you will not take my beloved gift which gains me such attention and prestige down at church"!

I give you a paper bag full of $50 Dollar bills..... you dump them out, ignore them and get all jazzed up and excited about the paper bag. You waive the bag, point at the bag, write books and sing songs about the bag, all the while ignoring the thing of value which the worthless little bag delivered..... this is the modern day tongues movement. Ignore the word of God and get excited about the voice upon which it was delivered. Like a famous person arriving in a fancy car....everyone stomps him to death to get a look at the car. The car is just a means of delivery....like a donkey speaking to Baalam or a rooster delivering the last blow to Peter....what is important is God's word.



:goodpost::amen: Pastor Harrison. :thumb Well, said.

Speaking in tongues has ended because we have the COMPLETE Word of God. :smile

1 Corinthians 13:8-10...8 Charity never faileth: but whether there be prophecies they shall fail; whether there be tongues (it was a tool for the time), they shall cease; whether there be knowledge, it shall vanish away. 9 For we know in part, and we prophesy in part. 10 But when that which is perfect is come, then that which is in part shall be done away. KJV 1611 AV.

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I'm a student at Pillsbury Baptist Bible College in Minnesota' date=' at the moment I'm studying greek. In my study I have found out a very key idea when it comes to Greek. In the Koine Greek there is a tense called pluperfect this tense means that there was an event that came to pass and it had ramifications, or it continued into the future for awhile, but then it stopped. When I learned about this tense, I immediately began to study the aspects of it. I discovered that every time speaking in tongues is written in a verb form(except for once when Paul gives an example), this tense is used. Therefore in my mind, it is concluded that tongues has ceased. - Dean[/quote']

No offense but you are mistaken The pluperfect is a very rare verb, Seldomed used in the New Testament. In Acts 2:4, Acts 10:46, 1Cor. 14:2,4 the present tense is used.

God Bless
John

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Speaking in tongues has ended because we have the COMPLETE Word of God. :smile

1 Corinthians 13:8-10...8 Charity never faileth: but whether there be prophecies they shall fail; whether there be tongues (it was a tool for the time), they shall cease; whether there be knowledge, it shall vanish away. 9 For we know in part, and we prophesy in part. 10 But when that which is perfect is come, then that which is in part shall be done away. KJV 1611 AV.

Couple questions:
Which part of the Bible was not perfect before Revelation?
What part of the Bible was "done away" with after it was finished?
The Bible never refers to itself as a group or whole, because it was individual letters and writings before they were compiled a few hundred years ago. So, why would this be the only reference to a whole Bible that didn't even exist until hundreds of years later?

This Scripture being used to reject tongues is most likely nothing more than the creation of some pastor who wanted to find a convenient Scripture to fit into his theology. It's nothing more than twisting the Bible for one's own agenda because any honest look at it will make it clear that it cannot be speaking about the Bible.

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Couple questions:
Which part of the Bible was not perfect before Revelation?
What part of the Bible was "done away" with after it was finished?
The Bible never refers to itself as a group or whole, because it was individual letters and writings before they were compiled a few hundred years ago. So, why would this be the only reference to a whole Bible that didn't even exist until hundreds of years later?

This Scripture being used to reject tongues is most likely nothing more than the creation of some pastor who wanted to find a convenient Scripture to fit into his theology. It's nothing more than twisting the Bible for one's own agenda because any honest look at it will make it clear that it cannot be speaking about the Bible.



This is one of those things that's taught and preached so much many people simply believe it without ever looking at it.

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Which part of the Bible was not perfect before Revelation? What part of the Bible was "done away" with after it was finished?
None of the Bible was "perfect" before Revelation, because "perfect" in the sense used here means complete. Once Scripture was complete, then the "parts" (spiritual gifts) are done away with. You need to understand why spiritual gifts were used -- for the furtherance of the Gospel. Once the full revelation of God was given, then the gifts were no longer necessary.

God never said His Word would come in the form of one book. The Bible we have today was put together because of confusion surrounding all the writings that were beginning to flourish in early Christianity. A standard needed to be established, and thus, we have a book that is God's Word.

Mitch

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None of the Bible was "perfect" before Revelation, because "perfect" in the sense used here means complete. Once Scripture was complete, then the "parts" (spiritual gifts) are done away with. You need to understand why spiritual gifts were used -- for the furtherance of the Gospel. Once the full revelation of God was given, then the gifts were no longer necessary.

God never said His Word would come in the form of one book. The Bible we have today was put together because of confusion surrounding all the writings that were beginning to flourish in early Christianity. A standard needed to be established, and thus, we have a book that is God's Word.

Mitch

First, why do you assume that it is talking about Scripture? Where does it give any indication that it is referring to Scripture?
If it was referring to Scripture, can you tell me what parts of Scripture were done away?

I would disagree with the purpose of gifts. In 1 Corinthians 12:4 and 5, Paul talks about both diversities of gifts and administrations. Some are given wisdom, others faith, others healing, and many other special gifts for working within the Body of Christ. The whole idea was that we are each given a gift for our role as a member of Christ's Body.

Verse 11 says "dividing to every man severally as he will." Each Christian is given a gift by the Holy Spirit and we each have different roles to fulfill. Some are the hands, some the eyes, others the feet. Some people think that one spiritual gift is better than another and that is why Paul went to great lengths to emphasize the special place each of us occupy in the Body and that they are all equally necessary.

Again, there is nothing to indicate the chapter 13 and verse 10 of 1 Corinthians is referring to Scripture and it would contradict the role of the Holy Spirit outlined in chapter 12.

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Just a few thoughts for consideration:

1. While "all scripture" is given by inspiration of God and "IS" profitable for doctrine...." (II Tim 3:16) and we are to 'study' (II Tim 2:15) the scriptures and search the scriptures (John 5:39) [two verses new versions hate & destroy]; still we know by diligent attention to the scriptures (as a whole) that different portions thereof have differing application depending upon to whom addressed, when addressed and in what context.

2. Though this truth can be and has been distorted by misinterpretation & misapplication in the charismatic denominations, still the reality of it is manifest....for example: There is a ton of scripture specifying the particulars and applications of the Tabernacle, of the offerings, of the atonements, of the sacrifices of goats and bulls. There is no particular verse that says plainly "stop it"....but there are many which say exactly that in every other way....the Gospels, Romans, and Hebrews contain more than could be listed herein.... Does this make those verses unimportant? Paul spent much time arguing that it certainly does not, but rather that we are simply no long under the application of the Law as saved sinners.

3. Such is the case in consideration of the "sign gifts" as opposed to the several gifts which are not given as signs to the Jews but rather as gifts to all the children of God for the edification of the body. Dispensationally some scriptures are in application to the Jews....some to the gentile.....some to the lost....some to the redeemed....some to the age of Grace....some to the tribulation period....some to the millennium. Point being very obviously then that some scripture has a specific application in time and to certain people. The sign gifts are exactly such a subject.... as I said in an earlier post. Consequently you find no "sign" gift used outside its intented purpose of conveying a truth to the Jews - no exception.

4. Does this mean then that pentecostals / charismatics are bad people? Of course not. Does it mean they don't love the Lord and the Bible enough to interpret rightly? No it doesn't. The Apostle Peter himself got his doctrine wrong at one point and Paul had to straiten him out on it.... that doesn't mean Peter wasn't a good man...or a good Christian. It just shows he didn't have his doctrine straight. He let the other Jews influence his thinking and pressure him into joining their movement. He was mis-applying scripture out of it's proper dispensation & audience (Law / O.T.) to saved by Grace gentile believers in the age of grace (N.T.). *Misinterpretation, Misapplication and Misappropriation.

Illustration: I take my 6 ft 3 oldest son to Wal-mart to the little boys section. I stretch a size 2 shirt over one hand, tape 3 little pairs of pants to my son's back and try to make things designed for 2 yr olds fit him. I take 5 little pairs of shoes and stretch those over his toes... I could get him covered up in this ridiculous manner, but I've misapplied clothing not designed for him and he's gonna come out of their looking like a good will delivery truck hit him.

5. Some dear brethren due their circumstance, just need more than faith.... [Remember faith is the substance of things hoped for the evidence of things NOT SEEN]. Which means God expects you to believe without "signs" as he gave in earlier dispensations. He isn't going to send a pillar of fire by night to lead us Christians ...thats over and done with. Some folks though demand that God give them more than the Bible [1 John 5:13] they're like modern day Thomas' who proclaim brashly, unless I get a miraculous sign I will not believe!

6. But we fundamental stodgy old independent Bible believing Baptist have learned that in John 4 our Lord Jesus took a symbolic trip of 2 days (how coincidental?) among gentiles....and that oddly enough during that time with us, he performed 0 signs, and 0 miracles and no one spoke in tongues {how oddly ironic considering the tongues of today?}. Yet many believed vs 39 even without those signs & miracles. I say they saw enough in Jesus to believe without signs! My Lord Jesus doesn't have to prove anything more to me - he proved it all on the cross. My Father God doesn't have to give me a sign, he gave me a Bible and told me to believe it (1 Jhn 5:13)! He gave me his Son and told me to believe Him, He gave me salvation and told me he'd keep me and seal me. Amen?

For those who say "well your a died in the wool Baptist...what would you know about the 'tongues' movement"? I was raised in the Assembly of God, grew up believing the same doctrine they still teach today. Have two cousins who are pentecostal pastors. What happened? The Bible! I got in my Bible! You get in the Bible and false doctrine goes out the window!


Pastor Harrison

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39 But he answered and said unto them, An evil and adulterous generation seeketh after a sign; and there shall no sign be given to it, but the sign of the prophet Jonas:

Matt 12:39 (KJV)

The words Jesus uses are not to kind to those who seek for a sign. But even if they had a sign, would them believe?



Not according to Jesus they wouldn't.

31 And he said unto him, If they hear not Moses and the prophets, neither will they be persuaded, though one rose from the dead.

Luke 16:31 (KJV)



29 Jesus saith unto him, Thomas, because thou hast seen me, thou hast believed: blessed are they that have not seen, and yet have believed.

John 20:29 (KJV)

7 (For we walk by faith, not by sight:)

2 Cor 5:7 (KJV)

Its all about faith, those who seek a sign are really only offering up an excuse for which there will be no excuses accepted.

20 For the invisible things of him from the creation of the world are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even his eternal power and Godhead; so that they are without excuse:

Romans 1:20 (KJV)

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3. Such is the case in consideration of the "sign gifts" as opposed to the several gifts which are not given as signs to the Jews but rather as gifts to all the children of God for the edification of the body. Dispensationally some scriptures are in application to the Jews....some to the gentile.....some to the lost....some to the redeemed....some to the age of Grace....some to the tribulation period....some to the millennium. Point being very obviously then that some scripture has a specific application in time and to certain people. The sign gifts are exactly such a subject.... as I said in an earlier post. Consequently you find no "sign" gift used outside its intented purpose of conveying a truth to the Jews - no exception.


"Sign gifts," another buzz word that people have come up with to do away with any gift that doesn't make sense in our faithless "logical" world in which we live. You won't find the term "sign gifts" anywhere in the Bible. Rather, you have this verse from which people get it:

1 Corinthians 14:22 Wherefore tongues are for a sign, not to them that believe, but to them that believe not: but prophesying serveth not for them that believe not, but for them which believe.

What does this verse say? It says that tongues are a sign. Does it say that tongues, miracles, and prophesying are signs? No, just tongues. It says that tongues are for a sign to those who do not believe. Okay, so maybe one could make an argument against tongues in the church based on that phrase. But the very next phrase talks about prophesying and what does it say about prophesying? Is it a sign? NO. Prophesying serves those who believe, not those who do not believe. The "sign gifts" were not all for unbelievers, ONLY tongues, in this case.

The fact is, not all gifts are supernatural(in the sense that we think of the it). Paul can talk about gifts of knowledge, teaching, or wisdom and we're all fine with that. But let him start talking about something that requires a manifest showing of the power of the Holy Spirit and suddenly we've got to find some way of rationalizing it away.

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Pastor Harrison,Such is the case in consideration of the "sign gifts" as opposed to the several gifts which are not given as signs to the Jews but rather as gifts to all the children of God for the edification of the body. Dispensationally some scriptures are in application to the Jews....some to the gentile.....some to the lost....some to the redeemed....some to the age of Grace....some to the tribulation period....some to the millennium. Point being very obviously then that some scripture has a specific application in time and to certain people. The sign gifts are exactly such a subject.... as I said in an earlier post. Consequently you find no "sign" gift used outside its intented purpose of conveying a truth to the Jews - no exception.


Act 8:13 And Simon also himself believed: and being baptized, he continued with Philip; and beholding signs and great miracles wrought, he was amazed.

Here is a situation of signs being used to win the Gentiles. Also the Church at Corinth used sign gifts 1 Cor 14, deal with their used of speaking in tongues.

God Bless
John

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We don't rationalizing gifts away, we just take God for what he tells us in His Holy Word, no more, no less.

Its been pointed out over and over again from the pages of the Bible. and that is what we are to go by, if we don't, them we will not be following Jesus.

If the Bible actually taught such gifts were still in, we would not teach against them.

But if you want to see an amazing modern day miracle, watch someone get saved, these miracle are happing every day, its just not enough of them taking place. Plus someone getting saved is the much greater miracel than those gifts which have been done away with.

7 I say unto you, that likewise joy shall be in heaven over one sinner that repenteth, more than over ninety and nine just persons, which need no repentance.

Luke 15:7 (KJV)

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"Sign gifts," another buzz word that people have come up with to do away with any gift that doesn't make sense in our faithless "logical" world in which we live. You won't find the term "sign gifts" anywhere in the Bible. Rather, you have this verse from which people get it:

1 Corinthians 14:22 Wherefore tongues are for a sign, not to them that believe, but to them that believe not: but prophesying serveth not for them that believe not, but for them which believe.

What does this verse say? It says that tongues are a sign. Does it say that tongues, miracles, and prophesying are signs? No, just tongues. It says that tongues are for a sign to those who do not believe. Okay, so maybe one could make an argument against tongues in the church based on that phrase. But the very next phrase talks about prophesying and what does it say about prophesying? Is it a sign? NO. Prophesying serves those who believe, not those who do not believe. The "sign gifts" were not all for unbelievers, ONLY tongues, in this case.

The fact is, not all gifts are supernatural(in the sense that we think of the it). Paul can talk about gifts of knowledge, teaching, or wisdom and we're all fine with that. But let him start talking about something that requires a manifest showing of the power of the Holy Spirit and suddenly we've got to find some way of rationalizing it away.



Hi Brother Kevin, Let me see if I can respond to your concerns and questions / comments: I'll try to go in order numerically to keep it somewhat organized.
1. "Buzz words": "thats not in the Bible" - yes, you're right "sign" gifts as a term isn't in the Bible, neither is the word "Korea" or "youth pastor" or "sunday school" or "Pauline epistles" but these terms do have substance and meaning nontheless sound.

2. That this word was created by men to "do away with a gift" I'd disagree with that assessment. Baptist doctrine doesn't "do away with" tongues. That is impossible and violates scripture. What we do is accept what the Bible says about what exactly they really were as opposed to what is claimed by the many who join Elymas in "perverting the right ways of the Lord" and who ever struggle to subtly "pervert the gospel of Christ" (See Acts 13:10 and Gal 1:7).

3. "What you have is this verse (ref 1 Cor 14:22) from which people get it" -- Scripture 'with' scripture must include as well to whom the signs were given friend Kevin. Ref 1 Cor 1:22 the Jews seek a sign. I need not call to your attention that the signs (you will accept that the term signs is Biblical?) begin with Moses (a jew) and are given to the children of Israel (Jews) to prove something (a Biblical truth) to them? Moreover that throughout Scripture no sign (or tongues) ever occurs outside their presence. It is said plainly in scripture tongues are for a sign and who is it that the Bible says seeks signs? The Jews.

4. If indeed the Bible says tongues are for them that don't believe (and it does) isn't it odd that only believers argue it's reality in our time and not unbelievers who got saved under it's application and use? How very strange.... I attended a tongue faking church for many years....same good redneck country folk every service speaking chicken language to impress one another....never a soul saved who otherwise didnt understand the gospel but through tongues heard and believed....how very odd.

5. Your premise that miracles and prophesyings are not signs is incorrect - these are demonstrable "signs" and as such never occur outside the presence of Jews. They are acts of power demonstration which convince one to believe without faith...rather than by faith to beleive and then see the manifestations of power.

6. You said Not all signs are supernatural. I would disagree and say any gift of God is quite wonderful & supernatural! What ever ones gift of God - be it helps, teaching, wisdom.... it is a supernatural empowering of the Holy Spirit and wonderfully wrought in the believer!

7. You say "we rationalize away manifest showings of the Holy Ghost...." Sound doctrine disagrees. Having never seen the pillar of fire for example doesn't mean it didn't exist. It does however follow the instruction to study and rightly divide to know to whom, when, how this wonder was given. The pillar of fire was real, did occur, for a specific time, for a specific people, for a specific purpose. Others beheld it, but it was not for them....and it's time is ended. Is that rationalizing away the pillar of fire? I guess some might say yes.....your just being "logical". In the end the pillar of fire, certainly a manifest working of power of the Holy Spirit, is no longer with us.... that doesn't mean I don't believe it 'once was' with us.

Does this mean the Holy Spirit doesn't manifest himself to believers in many other ways now? He assuredly does and those manifestations are just as wonderous, miraculous and powerful.

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Brother John said "Act 8:13 And Simon also himself believed: and being baptized, he continued with Philip; and beholding signs and great miracles wrought, he was amazed.

Here is a situation of signs being used to win the Gentiles. Also the Church at Corinth used sign gifts 1 Cor 14, deal with their used of speaking in tongues.

Hi Bro John, the Lord bless you. Saw your post! Nice to meet you. Here are some things for you to ponder concerning Simon the sorcerer.

1. Simon is a Samaritan (mixed bloodline Israelite / Ishmaelite - not categorically gentile) in Acts 8 (four years) prior to the gospel being given to the gentiles (Acts 10).
2. Simon believes signs being performed by whom? Phillip (a Jew) for whom? Jews (Acts 8:12) so Simon saw what? Jews performing signs to the Jews and he himself as a Samaritan (vs 14) also believed these Jewish Apostles (only) vs 18 and their signs which he "saw".
3. The gentiles are not who the Apostles were trying to convert in Acts 8. Remember they didn't even believe a gentile could be saved at this point in Bible history, and were ready to trounce Peter for preaching to gentiles in Acts 10. So much so that Peter feared what would happen to him when the Jews of Jerusalem heard he had preached to gentiles and so he rehearsed how he was going to tell them...and he took Jewish witnesses with him as backup (Acts 11:2) to verify his story. So the gentiles who did speak in tongues did so for one purpose....to prove to Jews who didn't think they could be saved, that yes now in Acts 10 salvation had come to the gentiles (Acts 11:18) have now been allowed to accept and believe the gospel!

Summary: Acts 8 is pre-gentile salvation. The gentile is not the intended audience. Simon believes Jewish signs, performed exclusively by Jewish Apostles and he was thereby convinced of the reality of the gospel by this manifestation of signs yet when he believes, he DOES NOT speak in tongues nor perform ANY sign himself as evidence of conversion, nor at any point recorded thereafter.

Lastly - you mentioned Gentiles in Corinth - yes, of a certainty there were gentiles in the church at Corinth... a church started by a Jew, filled with Jews (and gentiles) and wherein signs were performed to win Jews who had not yet believed.

I could write you a book on it if needed, but suffice it to say Jews returning to their homeland, speaking the language of where they may have been born abroad, upon entering the church at the seaport city of Corinth, would be able to hear the gospel of Christ Jesus spoken in thier own tongue as a manifest token of its powerful truth through a gift of the Holy Spirit to a Jew or a gentile at that time for the purpose of convincing Jews only of the truth of the gospel.
*One point to consider though. No gentile is recorded as speaking in tongues outside Acts 10 and then only for the purpose of convincing Jews that salvation (not tongues or signs) had come to the gentile. It is only assumed that gentiles spoke in tongues routinely in the Corinthian church.

Hope that helps a little.

In Christ
Bro Malcolm

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There is no doubt that the modern Charasmaniac movement is un-biblical. PastorHarrison here admits to have attended these, and I am sorry to say, likely never once saw the true manifestation of the spirit. From my earthly perspective, it seems like they have caused a LOT of damage and division to the body of Christ.

That being said, Kevin's points have merit. The ending of these gifts are based on extra-biblical ideas that do not have a strong theological grounding. They are based on a few select passages, that could have plenty of other meanings. Its never wise to build a solid theological stance on such weak hermeneutical ground.

Let's assume for a minute that "the perfect" is not the Bible. If its not, then there is absolutely no reason to assume these gifts are incapable of being used, but that the Spirit reserves their usage for times when they will actually benefit the body. Why don't we see tongues in our churches today? Perhaps there are no lost people in them, so the Holy Spirit realizes it would be fruitless. Why do we not see prophecy in the church today? perhaps because we are so divided over this issue that the church would be driven farther apart.

Instead I ask, why not let God be God. Why not be open to the Holy Spirit's work and see where He takes us. Why close off, through teaching and stereotyping, the spiritual gifts from the Holy Spirit because of some really weak Biblical ideas.

What would happen if the Baptist church today said, "For too long we have lived loving Father, Son, and Holy Scripture. We want to know and understand more of the work of the Holy Spirit. We what to live in all fullness of life, whatever that looks like, and we will rely on you to lead us there." I honestly do not think 10 people would fall out slain in the Spirit. That's just not the God of the Bible. But you might have some godly person speak up and say something like, "I really feel like the Spirit is saying he is pleased with our desire to be grown."

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[quote="dwayner79"]There is no doubt that the modern Charasmaniac movement is un-biblical. PastorHarrison here admits to have attended these, and I am sorry to say, likely never once saw the true manifestation of the spirit. From my earthly perspective, it seems like they have caused a LOT of damage and division to the body of Christ.

That being said, Kevin's points have merit. The ending of these gifts are based on extra-biblical ideas that do not have a strong theological grounding. They are based on a few select passages, that could have plenty of other meanings. Its never wise to build a solid theological stance on such weak hermeneutical ground.

Let's assume for a minute that "the perfect" is not the Bible. If its not, then there is absolutely no reason to assume these gifts are incapable of being used, but that the Spirit reserves their usage for times when they will actually benefit the body. Why don't we see tongues in our churches today? Perhaps there are no lost people in them, so the Holy Spirit realizes it would be fruitless. Why do we not see prophecy in the church today? perhaps because we are so divided over this issue that the church would be driven farther apart.

Instead I ask, why not let God be God. Why not be open to the Holy Spirit's work and see where He takes us. Why close off, through teaching and stereotyping, the spiritual gifts from the Holy Spirit because of some really weak Biblical ideas.

What would happen if the Baptist church today said, "For too long we have lived loving Father, Son, and Holy Scripture. We want to know and understand more of the work of the Holy Spirit. We what to live in all fullness of life, [i]whatever that looks like[/i], and we will rely on you to lead us there." I honestly do not think 10 people would fall out slain in the Spirit. That's just not the God of the Bible. But you might have some godly person speak up and say something like, "I really feel like the Spirit is saying he is pleased with our desire to be grown."[/quote]

Just some thoughts on this:

IMHO one of the dangerous things embraced today is the belief that the Holy Spirit operates independantly of the Scriptures. The work of the Holy Spirit is the application of Biblical truthes from the Scriptures to a believer's life to make him or her more Christlike. He isn't going to "take us" anywhere but closer to being Christlike - which means less of us and more of him. One does not get "more of the Holy Spirit" but rather the Holy Spirit gets more of us. Like John the Baptist said "I must diminish...and he must increase" so directly opposed to the present "me me me" syndrome of the charismatic movement, its rather "living sacrifice" "dead to self" "crucified with Christ" and him him him. Tongues & prophecying in the hands of the modern day pentecostal movement seeks honor and glory and attention to the individual claiming use of such gift, which of course is clear proof the Holy Spirit isn't in it. [u]For in ALL manifestations of tongues the Holy Spirit just has one single thing to say (Acts 2:11) "the wonderful works of God". [/u]

I think (and I stress "I think") that we Baptist have quenched the work of the Spirit due our fear of counterfeiting his workings, we're so afraid of falling into the apostacy that grips our pentecostal & methodist brothers that we refuse to be moved at all. Truly "I shall not be moved" is a Baptist hymn! :) However, great care must be taken in guarding that we not follow after lying vanities or other self focused [so-called] manifestations of the Holy Ghost as so many countless thousands have. How easy it is to let one's desire for self actualization move him or her to utterances and actions which at their heart are simply subconscious efforts to garner attention upon us....and not our Lord Jesus.

Truly Christ said whoso loseth his life....for my sake.... thats our problem. We want to still be "us" and let the Holy Spirit within us get us some attention and stroke our pride. We want Christ to be a part of our lives....the Holy Spirit to be a part of "our" lives but not ALL. Christ said you've got to lose your life and let me have it and you be dead to your self and your life hid with Christ in God (Col 3:2-3) which means.... no attention for us, no glory for us, no honor for us, no one praising the great thing we just said...but rather letting it be "all about Jesus".

We all have a "me" problem...a pride problem. We want to be seen, to be heard, to be known, to be appreciated. We want to matter! Next we all have a flesh problem like Paul said. That flesh demands attention, glory, honor, respect, and recognition. With these two problems we get saved....and then find within us a terrible war raging! On one side Christ...on the other the flesh! The Devil has provided however a wonderful solution.... (Gen 3 all over again) he offers a little 'spiritual' candy for the flesh... a way to be spiritual and get some "me time" in with it! He counterfeits and offers subtle ways for you to belong to God but still have a little honor & glory for you. The pentecostal movement has never been about honoring Christ or his Holy Spirit - its been about people getting "gifted" rather than dying to self. It's been about ME ME ME!!!! Look how I've been led ... look what the Holy Spirit just told me to stand up and say!... How ironic that Jesus never spoke in tongues or fell out in the temple playing slain in the spirit! How odd that Paul never stood up in the temple and said "but the Holy Spirit just told me to tell you all how much he loved that last song special". How odd that tongues are for those who don't believe, but those who profess to possess the gift never stand up in Wal-Mart and use it to lead unbelievers to hear and accept the gospel. How odd that the pentecostal missionaries go to language school before going on the mission field.... if ya really have the gift of tongues I mean isn't that a waste of $? :)

But thats just silly country preacher thinking.
Bro Malcolm

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I think (and I stress "I think") that we Baptist have quenched the work of the Spirit due our fear of counterfeiting his workings, we're so afraid of falling into the apostacy that grips our pentecostal & methodist brothers that we refuse to be moved at all. Truly "I shall not be moved" is a Baptist hymn! :) However, great care must be taken in guarding that we not follow after lying vanities or other self focused [so-called] manifestations of the Holy Ghost as so many countless thousands have. How easy it is to let one's desire for self actualization move him or her to utterances and actions which at their heart are simply subconscious efforts to garner attention upon us....and not our Lord Jesus.

I think your absolutely right. We have swung to the other side of extreme. And while I agree that we need to be careful about self-seeking acts, we do not need to be so concerned that when the Holy Spirit directs us to talk to our fellow believers with a word of encouragement (or rebuke) that we don't.

This is why I say, if we just go to Him in humility, and ask Him to teach us and guide us, and be open to that guiding, then He has the stage, and He will guide with graciousness and patience. If we try to manufacture it, we will always get it wrong.

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I think your absolutely right. We have swung to the other side of extreme. And while I agree that we need to be careful about self-seeking acts, we do not need to be so concerned that when the Holy Spirit directs us to talk to our fellow believers with a word of encouragement (or rebuke) that we don't.

This is why I say, if we just go to Him in humility, and ask Him to teach us and guide us, and be open to that guiding, then He has the stage, and He will guide with graciousness and patience. If we try to manufacture it, we will always get it wrong.


Well said... and wholly agreed.

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:goodpost: :amen: PastorHarrsion and dwayner79. :-)

6. You said Not all signs are supernatural. I would disagree and say any gift of God is quite wonderful & supernatural! What ever ones gift of God - be it helps' date=' teaching, wisdom....[/color'] it is a supernatural empowering of the Holy Spirit and wonderfully wrought in the believer!


dwayner79...how are you, your wife, and your baby in the "womb" doing? :pray

Kevin...have you located the information yet on "Spiritual Gifts?" God bless you over there in Korea.

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What would happen if the Baptist church today said, "For too long we have lived loving Father, Son, and Holy Scripture. We want to know and understand more of the work of the Holy Spirit. We what to live in all fullness of life, whatever that looks like, and we will rely on you to lead us there." I honestly do not think 10 people would fall out slain in the Spirit. That's just not the God of the Bible. But you might have some godly person speak up and say something like, "I really feel like the Spirit is saying he is pleased with our desire to be grown."


One might be tempted to agree with your logical and calm approach brother Dwayne, but we are left to the scriptures as our guide. One, the Holy Spirit will not work outside of the scriptures or their clear implications, two, he will not give witness to himself. That said, if we desire to "know and understand more of work of the Holy Spirit," we must go to the scriptures, and the scriptures alone in order to do that. How we feel, what we may desire, why we believe we might need... all that is so seeker sensitive, experience based, and therefore biased and subjective to human factors not scriptural.

Brother Harrison has presented a clear case for the cessation of tongues, be they the modern understanding of them or be they the biblical presentation of them.

The only thing left at this point is to say Amen, thus saith the Lord... or.... continue looking for experience based interpretations of the Bible.

To live in the fullness of the Holy Spirit? Just what does that mean? Just what does that "look like"? That is the concern I have. Making my experience or feelings the basis for truth in place of the one solid and unchanging basis we have been given. The Bible.

Dwayne, how do you know that you are not at this minute "filled with the Spirit"? (I use that phrase in the germane sense) Would you or I know whether or not we could sense a greater feeling or closeness? Can we trust what we might be feeling at the moment, or what if we are down in the dumps today, does that make me less filled?
I for one have a hard time with that sort of thing, not because I am afraid to feel anything, but more so due to the fact that when I read the early Acts period and the phrases that equate to "filled with the Spirit", most times if not all of them there is a definite demonstration of the working of the Holy Spirit, that is, speaking with boldness. My reading of the book of Acts indicates that preaching, witnessing, and not experience, or sensations of "feeling good" or "overwhelmed with joy" is a result of being filled by the or with the Holy Spirit.

In my personal life I can testify that the few times where I might have been "filled" I was also immediately charged with a self loathing, a helplessness, a dependence upon the grace of the Lord. A serious conviction of and about my true self, the judgment I truly deserve and the sense of a ... well it's hard to describe. I believe that is more in line with what the scriptures say a real meeting of the Spirit and a man will produce. (John 16)

God bless,

Calvary

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Excellent points Calvary.... reminds me of those brothers and sisters we know who (despite a great lack of scripture study or reading) seem ever led to do or say such an such which we find almost invariably in stark opposition to scripture. I know one dear lady named Lisa for point of illustration, who admitted she read very little of the Bible since getting saved. Yet she was always sharing with me at work what she was "led" to do or say "by the Holy Spirit" in counseling friends and fellow church members. With few exceptions I found her advice directly opposed the Bible! pro-abortion, pro-divorce, pro-sodomite union etc.

Of course this makes us "legalists" lol they say! Just stodgy old legalists who don't want anyone to be "moved" by the "spirit" :) One thing is for sure.... Bible thumping, non-modernized, non-charismatic, old fashioned "just believe the Bible" Baptists are in the back of the bus (or maybe even the luggage compartment).

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All I can say to this is that, as a former RCC---this always spooked me. I have many Christian friends who were in the RCC (like myself) and are VERY afraid of "Speaking in Tongues."

:hijack: PastorHarrison---I have heard that the movie "The Exorcist" was taken from the teachings in the Byzantine Catholic Church. Do you, or anyone else know if that is correct? I am curious on that one. :wvlf"

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"slain in the Spirit"

Isn't that the expression used by Benny Hinn and those who teach as he does? Seems to ma much of their teachings are finding their way into the modern day Baptist circles.

Also, does not to many try to use their human logic, worldly reasoning, to determine the truth of the Holy Word?

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