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Churches That Are Against Having Drums In The Music...

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As far as I'm concerned any instrument could conceivably be used in worship, but I've never seen drum kits and electric guitars work well. They're always too loud, too noisy and so drown out the singing. I prefer traditional organ playing; organs are usually designed for the acoustics of the building  they are in, and the playing style is designed to accompany the singing, not take over.

 

That said, I really like the acapella singing, or 'precenting', that goes on in the Free Church of Scotland. Singing psalms without any instruments--what a great idea. An example, though it's in gaelic. I've read that the church voted in 2010 to allow instruments and hymns: that's a great shame if it means the psalm singing will give way to rock concerts.

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Isn't drums refereed to at least one time in the Old Testament being used in a bad way, seems I remember Swath posting those verses sometime back, it may have been under another topic on this subject I'm just not sure. After having surgery on Monday I'm staying out of most discussions for my mind is not working to very good, yet I believe I see something way in the back of my mind remembering some Scriptures being posted by him sometime back on that subject. 

 

As for our young people it can be written in stone & they will still deny its true, yet not only them many adults too.

 

I believe many things within the Bible are vague on purpose, that God had the Bible written in that manner so that we would have to really study, & be saved, it in order to rightly divide the Word of the truth understand it. I believe many there be that feels that Jesus is not worth the trouble of spending hours after hours studying the Word so that they can rightly divide the Word of the truth & truly follow Him.

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What you're asking me to do is dig those books out and start all over.  I have some here, I think, and most are in storage.  I figure the best bet for now is to dig out the list of titles and authors and provide them to you.  If I get caught up with work in the next few weeks I'll go to the storage and start reading again but my memory would require a reminder as I'm apt to forget.  It's weird coming up on seemingly new posts and discovering that I've already been there and commented!

 

Would you be hastened, Swath, if we provided a drum roll? :wink

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As far as I'm concerned any instrument could conceivably be used in worship, but I've never seen drum kits and electric guitars work well. They're always too loud, too noisy and so drown out the singing. I prefer traditional organ playing; organs are usually designed for the acoustics of the building  they are in, and the playing style is designed to accompany the singing, not take over.

 

That said, I really like the acapella singing, or 'precenting', that goes on in the Free Church of Scotland. Singing psalms without any instruments--what a great idea. An example, though it's in gaelic. I've read that the church voted in 2010 to allow instruments and hymns: that's a great shame if it means the psalm singing will give way to rock concerts.

It seems to be rare that drums and electric guitars are used to accompany a song rather than make a song loud, but I've seen them used well a couple of times. When it comes to electric guitars, it's not necessarily the playing that's always the problem, but how the amplifiers and speakers are set up.

 

I love singing and hearing the singing of a congregation singing hymns acapella. It seems only a few churches do this much.

 

I've been in churches that had good songs and instrumentation but they have had their speakers turned up too loud.

 

In these matters we have to be careful how we use everything in our churches, including the sound system.

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I think the question whether an instrument is worldly or Godly brings up another question of what is worldliness?  "We are not of this world" means we are of another world...the Kingdom of God through salvation in Jesus.  In Biblical times there were no cell phones, cars, internet, TV and social media.  Should we not use these things so that we can be separate from the world?  What about watching sports or having birthday parties?  The world does that.  Should we as Christians not participate because the world also participates in these things?  If that is the case, we may as well be as the Amish and remove ourselves from society to make ourselves noticeably different.  The hymns that are sung in our churches today do not sound like and have the same melody as the music of ancient Biblical times. Should we then revise the melody of our beautiful hymns such as "Amazing Grace?  Just some thoughts.

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Welcome, Laura. Interesting that you should choose this topic for your first post.

 

Are you a baptised believer? As IFB isn't a denomination - Independent - so like me you can be Independent, fundamentalist & baptist, without being IFB. I'm with a UK independent group of 500+ churches.

 

Are you a musician - defending your drumming, concerned at drumming to the glory of God, or ...??

 

Regarding the various "worldly activities" you ask about, Scripture gives you freedom subject to your conscience & the conscience of those watching you, whether believers or unbelievers. (1 Cor. 10:23-33, Rom. 14)

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A little of my background.  Yes I am a baptised believer.  I used to be part of the Assemblies of God but was concerned with the teaching of losing one's salvation so now I've been going to an independent, fundamental Baptist church so that was a culture shock for me.  This particular Baptist church is very strict with using only the KJV of the Bible, women wearing dresses and women not preaching or going to a movie theater even if it is a Christian movie.  They don't command these things but teach them.  I feel I'm in a position of needing to really dig into scripture (which is probably a good thing) to come to terms with what I believe and how to live my life according to the Word of God.  With that said, I was searching the topic of music in the Bible and found this forum and is why this was my first post.  I am not a musician but I do admit I love the sound of the drums and never thought it was an issue with some people or churches.  So I guess I'm just questioning it and gave my opinion.  I think if we could hear the music in ancient Bible times, it wouldn't sound anything like the music of today, even our church music whether contemporary or hymns.  Does that make sense?  I believe worship comes from the heart and not what instrument we're using. Thank you for your post.  Replies give me a lot to think about to check on myself and search scripture. 

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Okay, that sounds good.  I haven't run across any classical music I do not like.  It's all good. 

I guess what I'd really like to see is drums used in a spiritual way that is appropriate.  In that regard, classical music does not apply.  Are there examples out there of Christian music where the drums are okay? 

 

Yes indeed there are.  It seems to me that Messiah by George Frideric Handel is a classical as well as a Christian piece of music.  I notice as far back as 1749 and earlier drums were used in Christian classical music.

 

 

The 1749 revival at Covent Garden, under the proper title of Messiah, saw the appearance of two female soloists who were henceforth closely associated with Handel's music: Giulia Frasi andCaterina Galli. In the following year these were joined by the male alto Gaetano Guadagni, for whom Handel composed new versions of "But who may abide" and "Thou art gone up on high". The year 1750 also saw the institution of the annual charity performances of Messiah at London's Foundling Hospital, which continued until Handel's death and beyond.[56] The 1754 performance at the hospital is the first for which full details of the orchestral and vocal forces survive. The orchestra included fifteen violins, five violas, three cellos, two double-basses, four bassoons, four oboes, two trumpets, two horns and drums. In the chorus of nineteen were six trebles from the Chapel Royal; the remainder, all men, were altos, tenors and basses. Frasi, Galli and Beard led the five soloists, who were required to assist the chorus.[57][n 4] For this performance the transposed Guadagni arias were restored to the soprano voice.[59] By 1754 Handel was severely afflicted by the onset of blindness, and in 1755 he turned over the direction of the Messiah hospital performance to his pupil, J.C. Smith.[60] He apparently resumed his duties in 1757 and may have continued thereafter.[61] The final performance of the work at which Handel was present was at Covent Garden on 6 April 1759, eight days before his death.[60]

 

God bless,

Larry

Edited by pilgrim1938

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I listen to Handel's Messiah once a year, around Christmas time.  It is very beautiful music. 

I've sung in the Messiah & Bach's St. Matthew Passion. Music like that is wonderful to be involved with.

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A little of my background.  Yes I am a baptised believer.  I used to be part of the Assemblies of God but was concerned with the teaching of losing one's salvation so now I've been going to an independent, fundamental Baptist church so that was a culture shock for me.  This particular Baptist church is very strict with using only the KJV of the Bible, women wearing dresses and women not preaching or going to a movie theater even if it is a Christian movie.  They don't command these things but teach them.  I feel I'm in a position of needing to really dig into scripture (which is probably a good thing) to come to terms with what I believe and how to live my life according to the Word of God.  With that said, I was searching the topic of music in the Bible and found this forum and is why this was my first post.  I am not a musician but I do admit I love the sound of the drums and never thought it was an issue with some people or churches.  So I guess I'm just questioning it and gave my opinion.  I think if we could hear the music in ancient Bible times, it wouldn't sound anything like the music of today, even our church music whether contemporary or hymns.  Does that make sense?  I believe worship comes from the heart and not what instrument we're using. Thank you for your post.  Replies give me a lot to think about to check on myself and search scripture. 

 

The Pentecostal/charismatic churches are questionable - they preach the Gospel, but add to it - tongues & healings, instant salvation by the "salvation prayer" with resultant loss of salvation, because saying a prayer isn't always true repentance & heart change. Easy salvation does result in easy loss of a salvation that in truth never was. Of course some are genuine, but the result is a church with a mix of converted & unconverted members.

 

Insisting on a dress code again is too far - dressing decently is all we should expect. Our ladies normally wear Indian dress - loose trousers (pants) & a dress - shalwah-chemise - >see also in another thread.

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The Pentecostal/charismatic churches are questionable - they preach the Gospel, but add to it - tongues & healings, instant salvation by the "salvation prayer" with resultant loss of salvation, because saying a prayer isn't always true repentance & heart change. Easy salvation does result in easy loss of a salvation that in truth never was. Of course some are genuine, but the result is a church with a mix of converted & unconverted members.

 

Insisting on a dress code again is too far - dressing decently is all we should expect. Our ladies normally wear Indian dress - loose trousers (pants) & a dress - shalwah-chemise - >see also in another thread.

Unfortunately more than a few Baptists also practice the "pray this prayer and you'll be saved" approach.

 

Indeed a dress code goes a step beyond as specific dress isn't prescribed in Scripture, rather we are called to dress modestly.

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The topic was about music and drums and I gave a little of my background from being in an AOG church and changing to the Baptist church so now after reading some posts I got a little confused in regards to the comments of "salvation."  Please forgive me as I said in my earlier post going from AOG to Baptist is a huge culture change for me.  So now I have to ask...I thought the moment you believed is when salvation occurs instantly.  Doesn't matter how...whether you go up to an alter, say a prayer in your head or even an atheist changing his mind on his death bed.  All the other things come later.  Sanctification, a changed life, gifts...etc.  And for some, the changes are quick and drastic and others may take years before you can even see a hint of a change.  I think for a lot of people they are not being helped to grow.  They may have salvation but are not being made into disciples.  I was not brought up in church. My mother said she would not go to church who are hypocrites during the week and act holy on Sundays.  She must have been burned pretty good cuz that's how she felt.  She had several Bibles around the house and never discouraged me from reading them or going to church with friends.  She believed in Jesus.  She would get mad every time I asked her because I thought she didn't have salvation since she didn't attend church or read her Bible.  But I know she prayed. She knelt with us at bedside when we were young and I saw her pray when her son died.  So I think it's very touchy and difficult and really not our job to know who has salvation and who doesn't.  Belief comes from the heart (only God knows the heart) and what you believe comes out in the way you live even though we make mistakes and have faults.  I don't know why I went on about this but maybe because I questioned my own salvation for years because of what my church taught that I wouldn't want to harm someone else that way who may be reading this.  I would leave the church feeling worse than when I went in like I couldn't possibly live up to those standards.  Now back to the topic of drums.  Although God's principles do not change, people, cultures and traditions do.  Maybe drums back in Bible days were related to worshiping false Gods and that's why they didn't use them?  Didn't Americans use civil war drums?  I'm sure we can all agree that people were closer to God's principles back then compared to today.  It's not common anymore as drums are more sophisticated, but that is the point about how cultures change and use of drums are not the same as in Bible days in a different land and culture and time period.  If God is the creator of everything then didn't he create drums?  For anyone who is interested you can google ancient music and how it sounded.  I listened to some ancient Egyptian music which there were no drums but string instruments and sounded very eerie so any instrument can be used in a Godly or un-Godly manner.  Just some more thoughts to ponder.   

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I listen to Handel's Messiah once a year, around Christmas time.  It is very beautiful music. 

I love the "Little Drummer Boy" classical animated Christmas show I watched as a child.  It is rarely on as there are a lot of shows about Santa Claus these days.  His only gift was to play his drum for baby Jesus.

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Wow!  The sound of that and seeing the way the people were talking and moving reminds me of African tribal rituals, which I have seen videos of.  Totally hypnotic, leading people into highly suggestive states which they then can be programmed.   Not good.

Edited to ask question:

Does anyone have a video example of drums being used in a good way?  I'd like to see what the difference between good drumming and bad drumming is, just out of curiosity.  There have been several statements about instruments being used in a good vs bad way yet no examples have been given of either.  For further clarification on this subject, it would be helpful to see examples of both assertions being demonstrated. 

I'm not for or against instruments being used in church, I don't care either way.  I just would like to see specific examples of both positions. 

Here is a good way?  http://bobb-cypressgrovebluescom.blogspot.com/2009/08/what-did-songs-of-bible-originally.html

Here is a bad way?  http://hubpages.com/hub/Music-Of-Biblical-Times

 

This is only my assumption since one is Hebrew and the other Egyptian.  The Hebrew made me want to worship while the Egyptian felt eerie.

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The topic was about music and drums and I gave a little of my background from being in an AOG church and changing to the Baptist church so now after reading some posts I got a little confused in regards to the comments of "salvation."  Please forgive me as I said in my earlier post going from AOG to Baptist is a huge culture change for me.  So now I have to ask...I thought the moment you believed is when salvation occurs instantly.  Doesn't matter how...whether you go up to an alter, say a prayer in your head or even an atheist changing his mind on his death bed.  All the other things come later.  Sanctification, a changed life, gifts...etc.  And for some, the changes are quick and drastic and others may take years before you can even see a hint of a change.  I think for a lot of people they are not being helped to grow.  They may have salvation but are not being made into disciples.

 

What I was saying is that it is easy to profess conversion by such means as you indicate. Whether that conversion is real, or simply superficial church leaders need to assess - is there evidence of a changed life? should we baptise him? should we welcome him into church membership, with voting rights regarding the running of the church? should he teach in the Sunday school? or preach? Paul writes: .... 10 And let these also first be proved; then let them use the office of a deacon, being found blameless.

 

We do need a level of discernment, but that does not mean a suspicial attitude to new believers - they need all the encouragement they can get, and how they respond to such encouragement is important. We are NOT free to continue in sin, that grace may abound. (Rom. 6:1)

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What I was saying is that it is easy to profess conversion by such means as you indicate. Whether that conversion is real, or simply superficial church leaders need to assess - is there evidence of a changed life? should we baptise him? should we welcome him into church membership, with voting rights regarding the running of the church? should he teach in the Sunday school? or preach? Paul writes: .... 10 And let these also first be proved; then let them use the office of a deacon, being found blameless.

 

We do need a level of discernment, but that does not mean a suspicial attitude to new believers - they need all the encouragement they can get, and how they respond to such encouragement is important. We are NOT free to continue in sin, that grace may abound. (Rom. 6:1)

I understand.  I think I was referring to my parents in whom which did not attend church.  I don't believe the "church" and not all of them...because I haven't attended "all" are not following up on new conversions.  My mother passed in July and my pastor conducted the funeral.  It will be 4 months and not once has he or anyone in the church even asked how our family is doing even though I attend every week and see him.  I understand he's busy but not an email, phone call, pat on the back.  That is very discouraging to me.  We're not free to sin as far as willful sinning but we will sin until we die and are with the Lord.  Does that make sense?  I'm not trying to debate just maybe venting about what goes on in churches?  Just thoughts in my head?  Thank you for your response.

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I understand.  I think I was referring to my parents in whom which did not attend church.  I don't believe the "church" and not all of them...because I haven't attended "all" are not following up on new conversions.  My mother passed in July and my pastor conducted the funeral.  It will be 4 months and not once has he or anyone in the church even asked how our family is doing even though I attend every week and see him.  I understand he's busy but not an email, phone call, pat on the back.  That is very discouraging to me.  We're not free to sin as far as willful sinning but we will sin until we die and are with the Lord.  Does that make sense?  I'm not trying to debate just maybe venting about what goes on in churches?  Just thoughts in my head?  Thank you for your response.

 

They see you attending church services so they feel all is going well with you. I assume at church services all of them are friendly with you. And perhaps they feel that if there was any problem you would mention it to one of them.

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They see you attending church services so they feel all is going well with you. I assume at church services all of them are friendly with you. And perhaps they feel that if there was any problem you would mention it to one of them.

While that's possible, it's still not very friendly, kind or even polite.

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So your saying if they're friendly & speaking to her & their not being polite?

If ones mom passes away, and the pastor conducts the funeral, then never says a word of comfort or even asks how the daughter is doing afterward that's not friendly or polite.

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We've had several saints pass away this year and 3 surviving spouses asked us NOT to keep consoling them.  Just treat them as we did before. 

That's fine, if that's what a person wants, but otherwise if nothing else it's polite to speak to someone about the matter, ask how they are holding up, if they need anything.

 

We are called to love one another, to share one anothers burdens, to weep with those who weep.

 

Some folks prefer privacy, and if they ask for that, then that's what they need. Some folks simply need to know others care, some actually may need some help in some way.

 

When my Mom passed away I had some people I didn't even know come up to me and speak kind words. We should certainly do no less with our brothers/sisters in Christ.

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I have to agree with John on this one.  If a loved one passes, the church family should rally.  That doesn't mean hounding the bereaved, but it does mean checking on them to see how they are doing.  If, as in swath's example, they ask to be treated as before, that is fine...do so!  However, when one loses a parent or a spouse, it can be devastating and a little "I'm thinking of you and praying for you" goes a long way! 

 

That said, though, we need to be cognizant of the fact that our fellow church members also have lives in which things happen.  We are to bear one another's burdens, so, yes, they should acknowledge the grieving one.  But at the same time, the grieving one needs to bear others' burdens.  That helps assuage grief in many ways.

 

Laura, I'm so sorry for your loss. We lost my dad almost 2 years ago (my grandmother 4 months before this) - and the grief is still pretty fresh (My FIL went to glory 9 years ago, and we still miss him).  Then we lost my hubby's oldest brother four months later.  This past June, we lost my MIL.  A couple of months later, we lost a dear friend who was like a brother.  While they are all in glory, we miss them.  And we grieve for their loss to us.  We wouldn't wish them back in the state they were in - they were all in ill health, but we do miss having them to speak with or just knowing they are there.

 

We are not asked how we are doing anymore.  I think part of the reason for that is that none of our family attended church here - they didn't/don't even live in the same state.  But when we lose members of the church, it's a bit different - and rightly so.

 

I'll be praying for you, Laura, and anytime you want to pm me and talk about your mom and your grief, feel free to do so - I would love to chat with you about your mom.  

 

Unless TGL doesn't care that the thread has taken this direction, we really need to get back on topic....

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