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Churches That Are Against Having Drums In The Music...

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It certainly is.

 

Okay, Swath, I agree with you as to the order of good music, but I have to challenge this response. It's not enough to just say 'it's in the Bible' and leave it at that. If it's there, show us. 

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Okay, Swath, I agree with you as to the order of good music, but I have to challenge this response. It's not enough to just say 'it's in the Bible' and leave it at that. If it's there, show us. 

 

I've done it already in past posts.  Yet, the same few (not you) keep asking me to produce evidence when they were involved in those earlier posts themselves and some have even read the same books as I.  

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Well, the past posts aren't here. They may even be archived and unavailable for viewing. Can you copy/paste? Without the proof of the Scriptures, it comes across as if you really don't have any Scriptural proof, but are just saying you do - and that's very frustrating and unlikely to convince anyone. :wink

 

I am asking you because, like I said, although I agree that there is a certain order to good music, I have to confess that I do not see where in the Bible it says that melody must be strongest, followed by harmony, followed by rhythm. If it's there, I'd like to know it. 

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This whole thing leads to what I see as a larger issue: Should music play such a large role in the church as it does?

 

I am not even talking just about the contemporary rock n roll churches but even the good IFB churches, where they have a huge orchestra and choir, and 5 or six songs are 'performed' as well as four or five hymns.

 

When I read anything in the Bible related specifically to the activities of/in the assembly, I see music virtualy absent. I see preach, teach, reprove, reuke, exhort, doctrine, prophecy, prayer. !&2 Timothy and 1Cor are great places to find direction for the church, as well as Acts, for examples of practices. Where is the music?

 

I see we are to speak to one another and ourselves and the Lord with psalms, hymns and spiritual songs-doesn't even say to sing. Two of these could be purely personal, and the other, either among the assembly, or not.

 

So, very little about music, and virtually nothing about music as a part of corporate worship and praise in the church. And yet, it seems to be a major function of the churches anymore, sometimes even to overshadowing the preaching and teaching, which are the absoute primary activity of the churches. Today, we have fifth-Sunday-sings, Christmas and Easter contatas of all music and maybe a little play with it. The church my wife and I attended on our honeymoon had about 40 minutes of music and 15 minutes of preaching and announcements. Very poor percentages.

 

So again, this is my question: Should we even have much music at all in the church? Where is its biblical, NT basis? Sure, lots in the OT Temple worship, but almost nothing in the NT.

This is a good question that a few churches consider, but it seems most either just go with the flow or follow an already established tradition.

 

Music shouldn't be the focus in regular services and absolutely should never be given more time than the sermon.

 

There should also be a purpose behind the music, not just having music or selecting whichever hymn the hymnal opens to.

 

Myself, I'm not in favor of church productions where the congregation sits and watches/listens to the "show". Some churches have big bands, orchestras and/or choirs that basically perform while the congregation enjoys the show.

 

I'm content with how our church uses music. Typically we have one or two hymns near the beginning, then one or two later. The hymns are selected based upon the sermon so they connect together. Sermons are always around 30 minutes, pastoral prayer takes several minutes (I've never timed it, I'm praying), the Scripture the sermon is based upon is read prior to the sermon, and we pass the plates, and once a month we partake of the Lord's Supper.

 

I know of no NT verses to support or give example of music in church so this would primarily be one of those areas where each church is at liberty to set their own policy on such. Music should be down the list in terms of priority for church services. This is one of the reasons I'm typically not for "music ministers" or the "worship leaders" some of the larger, more music-centered churches have.

 

The church myself and a couple others left back in the 90s was one of those that moved music to the primary position, giving about 45 minutes to music, with 10-15 minutes of preaching. No doubt it made the pastors job much easier only having to come up with a very short sermon.

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Well, the past posts aren't here. They may even be archived and unavailable for viewing. Can you copy/paste? Without the proof of the Scriptures, it comes across as if you really don't have any Scriptural proof, but are just saying you do - and that's very frustrating and unlikely to convince anyone. :wink

 

I am asking you because, like I said, although I agree that there is a certain order to good music, I have to confess that I do not see where in the Bible it says that melody must be strongest, followed by harmony, followed by rhythm. If it's there, I'd like to know it. 

That's long been one of the problems with regards to discussions regarding music among Christians, and not just today, but over the centuries. There has been much put forward as if it's biblical truth when the Bible is actually silent on the matter.

 

This reminds me of preachers I've heard preach against certain kinds of music in church, but when you point out their black sister church down the street uses that music, he says it's okay for them.

 

Then there are those who try to impose certain American ideas of music upon Christians in other parts of the world with no biblical basis for this other than they simply believe their way is best.

 

Views regarding music among Christians has long been all over the board, inconsistent and even at times hypocritical.

 

For the most part, we would do well to tend to music in our own churches and not worry ourselves about the music in other churches. It's obvious this is an area Christians are never going to agree upon as there is no set standard, there are varieties of preferences and other considerations, and all of that comes into play before we even try to insert biblical principles.

 

Myself, I've left one church over music but it was because they had turned it into a show and gave it the largest block of time, not because of the songs or style.

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Perhaps the saints, all the saints, are to sing, & God is suppose to be the listener, instead of the congregation, even if your like me, cannot carry a tune even with a radio. Instead of having performers putting on a show & receiving praise.

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So because there's almost nothing in the NT, we don't sing?  We don't use instruments?  Psalms, where we are told to praise the Lord with instruments is moot simply because it's OT?  I don't think so.  There's an awful lot in "corporate worship" that is not in the Bible.  Yes, we can call it tradition of man, but it actually only becomes that if it is anti-Bible...and praising God with instrument and voice is not.   The music would be in the same place that Sunday School, Sunday morning, Sunday night, Wednesday night services are; the same place set visitation times are; and so forth.  If we only do that which is obviously outlined in scripture, we are all wrong, because we aren't meeting daily from house to house...

Ah, you wound me-in no way was my post meant to insinuate that there should be no music or instruments. My point was, first, that church worship is far and away different from temple worship-yes, both worship the same God, but they come from very different perspectives: one from a nation that was not yet regenerated, who had a very strcit set of rules and regulations in everything from clothes to food to how one sows one's fields, etc. The music there was a continual thing-there were singers and musicians who played and sang all the time-it was their entire occupation; it wasn't just believers singing praises together. They were sort of professional musicians, not at all life we have today. we don't get how we serve God, specifically, from the Old testament, but from the New, because the examples and commands are vastly different. 

 

But that being said, I never meant to imply that we chould not, or should not, use music and instruments-I was just questioning how much we use. True, as I said, the Bible says nothing about using it-we have only one example out of the gospels, of them singing, and that was a single hymn mentioned after Passover supper, and in that case, there were very specific songs they sing associated with Passover. Otherwise, we never see it at all mentioned in services. This doesn't mean we don't have liberty to do so, nor that God is displeased by it-just that it has become, in many cases, far too central to services.

 

I totally agree that if the singing overshadows the preaching it's wrong.  But just because some churches do that doesn't mean all do.  God created us as musical beings (yes, I know - some can't sing...but they can enjoy the music) and He encourages us to praise Him with that music (again vocally and instrumentally) in the Psalms.  

 

Guaranteed that those who use drums in an ungodly way would know the difference between their music and godly music.  

Seriously? I mean, Seriously? All the CCM groups that sound no different than any worldly secualr rock band, they all know ther music is ungodly? If so, they don't appear to-many believe it is just fine and glorifying to God-its part of the currrent spiritual blindness going on, as we read of in Rev 3, in Laodicea.

 

The heathen also sing, and yet we are told to praise the Lord with song.  They use other instruments.  And yet we are told to praise the Lord with instruments.  There are a lot of things that have been used for wickedness - that does not make them intrinsically wicked.  Never said they were intrinsically wicked-in fact, I said the opposite. But what we offer to God must be considered in its associations. And drums, in particular, have a long, well-known history of dark associations.

 

Don't get me wrong, Uke. If you don't want to use certain instruments (or any) in your services, kudos to you!  Really and honestly.  But we have to be careful of questioning the holiness of others because they do.  Now, if they use them in a way that links them to heathenish music, yes there is a question of their holiness. But if they don't use it that way, then there oughtn't be question - especially from those who are fellow-Christians. KWIM? 

Like this  (start at about 1 minute, and watch a bit for some great drumming.

:

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Well, the past posts aren't here. They may even be archived and unavailable for viewing. Can you copy/paste? Without the proof of the Scriptures, it comes across as if you really don't have any Scriptural proof, but are just saying you do - and that's very frustrating and unlikely to convince anyone. :wink

 

I am asking you because, like I said, although I agree that there is a certain order to good music, I have to confess that I do not see where in the Bible it says that melody must be strongest, followed by harmony, followed by rhythm. If it's there, I'd like to know it. 

 

Brother John has read some of the same books but apparently has rejected what they had to say and the manner in which they pointed to scripture or he's like me and has an extremely poor memory because he's constantly repeating post #55 on thread after thread on this topic.

 

What you're asking me to do is dig those books out and start all over.  I have some here, I think, and most are in storage.  I figure the best bet for now is to dig out the list of titles and authors and provide them to you.  If I get caught up with work in the next few weeks I'll go to the storage and start reading again but my memory would require a reminder as I'm apt to forget.  It's weird coming up on seemingly new posts and discovering that I've already been there and commented!

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Brother John has read some of the same books but apparently has rejected what they had to say and the manner in which they pointed to scripture or he's like me and has an extremely poor memory because he's constantly repeating post #55 on thread after thread on this topic.

 

What you're asking me to do is dig those books out and start all over.  I have some here, I think, and most are in storage.  I figure the best bet for now is to dig out the list of titles and authors and provide them to you.  If I get caught up with work in the next few weeks I'll go to the storage and start reading again but my memory would require a reminder as I'm apt to forget.  It's weird coming up on seemingly new posts and discovering that I've already been there and commented!

The problem is that leaps and bounds are taken in those books and then there is an attempt to fit verses in. It doesn't matter the book or author, if they are making statements as if they are biblical fact when the Bible doesn't say what they contend, then at the very least they are misleading.

 

Now, if their ideas were put forth as their own view of what they think about music, that would be fine, but to try and say the Bible says what they say when it doesn't is no different than anyone else with a viewpoint or pet theory who attempts to force Scripture to back their view.

 

Likely as not, if God addresses this in heaven, we will discover some songs and music we thought were great actually are not in God's eyes and some that we thought were bad or wrong are actually loved by the Lord.

 

Were music the major issue many make it out to be the Lord would have addressed it directly. As is, individuals and churches have the liberty to study the matter themselves, seek the Lord in prayer and establish their musical stances.

 

I know sound and strong brothers in Christ who hold to very different views regarding music. They serve the same Lord we do, they have within them the same Holy Ghost. If the Lord wishes to convict any or all of them, or me or you, with regards to music, He can and will do so. Then it's up to us to obey the Lord in His leading regarding music and it's not always the same for everyone. Consider "Amazing Grace" and how the song received very tepid acceptance until it came to America, and then only in part of America at first did "Amazing Grace" find folks the song really moved and it became a popular hymn.

 

The Lord moves in His own ways with music as with other things. Just as a hundred people can hear the same sermon and a few are moved to action while the rest are not, the same is true with music, where a hundred people can hear/sing the same song yet only a few may be moved to deep worship and praise through the song while others are not.

 

We need to be careful to follow the convictions the Lord lays upon our hearts while not trying to force them upon others or attacking or condemning our brothers/sisters in Christ who have different convictions.

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Brother John has read some of the same books but apparently has rejected what they had to say and the manner in which they pointed to scripture or he's like me and has an extremely poor memory because he's constantly repeating post #55 on thread after thread on this topic.

 

What you're asking me to do is dig those books out and start all over.  I have some here, I think, and most are in storage.  I figure the best bet for now is to dig out the list of titles and authors and provide them to you.  If I get caught up with work in the next few weeks I'll go to the storage and start reading again but my memory would require a reminder as I'm apt to forget.  It's weird coming up on seemingly new posts and discovering that I've already been there and commented!

 

Thank you, but I don't need those book titles. I probably have the same ones. You stated that the order of music is set out in the Bible, and I want to know where in the Bible it says it is - not in some man's book.  Swath, if it's in the Scriptures, you should be able to give me chapter and verse, or at least principle, without having to dig through a whole box of books!

 

I'm challenging this because it is so easy to say that some specific standard is in the Bible, when really only the principle is there to draw from. Not that principles are unimportant, but if we say something is specifically there, it had better be there. Our young people will find any such inconsistencies (and, frankly, lies) and, all to often, use them as an excuse to discard the standard altogether. If something is based on principle, let's teach them the principles! But let's not just say 'it's in the Bible' without being able to back that up. If it's there, we should be able to share it - always and whenever we are asked to give an answer.

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Does Psalm 150 teach the use of instruments in TEMPLE worship?

 

Surely the worship in the temple was sacrifices & incense, & in no way resembled a church service. Instruments were used in processions & in house worship on the sabbath.

 

Psalm 92:1 It is a good thing to give thanks unto the Lord, and to sing praises unto thy name, O Most High:

To shew forth thy lovingkindness in the morning, and thy faithfulness every night,

Upon an instrument of ten strings, and upon the psaltery; upon the harp with a solemn sound.

 

Tho' the dedication must have been a noisy affair, but is that a pattern for regular worship?

2 CHr. 5:12 Also the Levites which were the singers, all of them of Asaph, of Heman, of Jeduthun, with their sons and their brethren, being arrayed in white linen, having cymbals and psalteries and harps, stood at the east end of the altar, and with them an hundred and twenty priests sounding with trumpets:)

13 It came even to pass, as the trumpeters and singers were as one, to make one sound to be heard in praising and thanking the Lord; and when they lifted up their voice with the trumpets and cymbals and instruments of musick, and praised the Lord, saying, For he is good; for his mercy endureth for ever: that then the house was filled with a cloud, even the house of the Lord;

14 So that the priests could not stand to minister by reason of the cloud: for the glory of the Lord had filled the house of God.

I'm not sure we would recognise it as music. Was that IN the temple - was there that much room inside for hundreds of musicians & singers? They could have been outside the east end, especially as the temple itself was filled with the cloud of glory.

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Does anyone have a video example of drums being used in a good way?  I'd like to see what the difference between good drumming and bad drumming is, just out of curiosity.  There have been several statements about instruments being used in a good vs bad way yet no examples have been given of either.  For further clarification on this subject, it would be helpful to see examples of both assertions being demonstrated. 

I'm not for or against instruments being used in church, I don't care either way.  I just would like to see specific examples of both positions. 

While this is not a church setting (and it's not a church song...but Beethoven wrote some real winners!), I think it shows what a good orchestra does with drums.  Note that the drums never overwhelm.  (It's pretty long, but the first two or three minutes give you the idea)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dPnkrvtuiMQ

 

Sorry, I looked for audio of our church with the orchestra playing, but can't find any online.

 

edited to add: Here's a 15 minute version of Ode to Joy, which is often sung in churches (most might recognize it as Joyful, Joyful, We Adore Thee). It's the 4th movement of Beethoven's 9th.  While churches that play the song would probably not play the entire version, I posted this so you could hear the drums...

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While this is not a church setting (and it's not a church song...but Beethoven wrote some real winners!), I think it shows what a good orchestra does with drums. Note that the drums never overwhelm. (It's pretty long, but the first two or three minutes give you the idea)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dPnkrvtuiMQ

Sorry, I looked for audio of our church with the orchestra playing, but can't find any online.




watch and learn Chinese at the same time. :)

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While this is not a church setting (and it's not a church song...but Beethoven wrote some real winners!), I think it shows what a good orchestra does with drums.  Note that the drums never overwhelm.  (It's pretty long, but the first two or three minutes give you the idea)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dPnkrvtuiMQ

 

Sorry, I looked for audio of our church with the orchestra playing, but can't find any online.


Okay, that sounds good.  I haven't run across any classical music I do not like.  It's all good. 

I guess what I'd really like to see is drums used in a spiritual way that is appropriate.  In that regard, classical music does not apply.  Are there examples out there of Christian music where the drums are okay? 

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Okay, that sounds good.  I haven't run across any classical music I do not like.  It's all good. 

I guess what I'd really like to see is drums used in a spiritual way that is appropriate.  In that regard, classical music does not apply.  Are there examples out there of Christian music where the drums are okay? 

Check what I added to my previous post.  It's Ode to Joy, the 4th movement.  While it would not be played like this in churches, it most certainly would use drums if a church orchestra had it.

 

I do wish I could find songs from our church to post because we do play in an appropriate way.  No, classical doesn't apply to the spiritual, but it does give the picture of proper usage of the drum.

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As to the video - that is obviously not a church (and I know you weren't implying it was).   :( It is horribly sad to see people misled in this way - but it isn't the fault of the drums...yes, they use drums wrongly, but these same types of people use stringed instruments wrongly, too.  It is heartbreaking that this type of stuff is done with the Lord's name applied. :icon_sad:

Actually, they would argue that they are, as would everyone in attendance. However, I agree, they are not, or if they are, if there are any saved there, I suspect it is of the type that Jesus is standing outside of, knocking to enter.

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You stated that the order of music is set out in the Bible, and I want to know where in the Bible it says it is - not in some man's book.  

 

Swath, if it's in the Scriptures, you should be able to give me chapter and verse, or at least principle, without having to dig through a whole box of books!

 

I'm challenging this because... But let's not just say 'it's in the Bible' without being able to back that up. 

 

 

Point 1 - I did that already in many previous discussions.

 

Point 2 - If my mind was only as good as yours I'd be able to do it.

 

Point 3 - I did that already in many previous discussions.  Since you don't want the names of the books I feel freed from the trip to the warehouse now.  The names were all posted 2 or 3 times here anyways too.

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Swath, I have never seen you post them. All I ever see is you saying you've posted them. Until you post the references asked for, I have to believe that they don't exist. Cause I've never found them myself. If you can't prove what you say is true, it's not worth anything. Sorry.

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