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LindaR

Chrislam? Christian Palestinianism?

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The following is excerpted from chapter 10 (The New Covenant) of Dr. Renald Showers’ book “There Really Is a Difference: A Comparison of Covenant and Dispensational Theology”.

 

 I don't think there is a verb "excerpted"  

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4 comments - all :ot:

 

I think my careful examination of Linda's #22 & #24 needs a reasoned reply. And no, despite #22, I do not consider there are any NT Scriptures that teach a glorious future for Israel or anyone else who has not been saved before Jesus returns for resurrection & judgment.

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4 comments - all :ot:

 

I think my careful examination of Linda's #22 & #24 needs a reasoned reply. And no, despite #22, I do not consider there are any NT Scriptures that teach a glorious future for Israel or anyone else who has not been saved before Jesus returns for resurrection & judgment.

If you noticed, I wasn't the one who started the "off topic" comments. 

 

My post #24 is a response to your response of my post #22.  I didn't quote it because of its length.  Since all you do is reject whatever I say (probably because you are a preterist and I'm not), all I am going to say is that I disagree with your preterist theology on eschatology...especially what preterism teaches about Israel and its future 1,000 kingdom (with Christ ruling from David's throne) and restoration.

Edited by LindaR

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If you noticed, I wasn't the one who started the "off topic" comments. 

 

My post #24 is a response to your response of my post #22.  I didn't quote it because of its length.  Since all you do is reject whatever I say (probably because you are a preterist and I'm not), all I am going to say is that I disagree with your preterist theology on eschatology...especially what preterism teaches about Israel and its future 1,000 kingdom (with Christ ruling from David's throne) and restoration.

 

He stands totally opposite of what the Bible teaches on this subject, I see no sense in debating him over it. Of course that's my opinion, do as you think is best.

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Serious question, just how important is this matter anyway?

 

I formed views regarding the modern nation of Israel before I was ever saved and I don't think they changed much after I was saved.

IMO, it is fulfillment of prophecy and demonstrates the hatred of the "professing" church (not the true body of Christ) towards Israel and anti-semitism in particular.  The anit-Israel sentiment is just getting worse and we are closer to the coming of our Lord for His Bride. (1 Thess. 4:13-18).

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Serious question, just how important is this matter anyway?

 

I formed views regarding the modern nation of Israel before I was ever saved and I don't think they changed much after I was saved.

It is important.  The Word of God tells us that we are not to learn the ways of the heathen.

Light can have no fellowship with darkness.

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IMO, it is fulfillment of prophecy and demonstrates the hatred of the "professing" church (not the true body of Christ) towards Israel and anti-semitism in particular.  The anit-Israel sentiment is just getting worse and we are closer to the coming of our Lord for His Bride. (1 Thess. 4:13-18).

There have always been Christians and professing Christians who have loved the Jews, hated the Jews or were indifferent towards them. In many nations we see repeated cycles of all three, where Jews might face heavy persecution, then they come into favor, and prior to and after their time of favor there is usually a time of indifference, and then hatred for them comes about again.

 

Even so, that's not what I was wondering about. My question is about what is the importance of what particular view one holds with regards to the Jews and the land of Israel?

 

Is it important what one believes with regards to the current nation of Israel, which only occupies a very tiny sliver of the land of ancient Israel and exceedingly less land than what God promised the Jews in the OT?

 

Even among those who see Jews having a nation of Israel today as a fulfillment of prophecy are all over the map with regards to their views beyond that.

 

What significance does, or should, this matter have with regards to our walk with Christ, if any?

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It is important.  The Word of God tells us that we are not to learn the ways of the heathen.

Light can have no fellowship with darkness.

Yes, I get that many say it's important, and for many different reasons. This is why I'm asking exactly why it is important and what bearing this has, if any, upon ones walk with the Lord.

 

Over the years I've heard and read many who say this is important, and this coming from those who are on differing sides of the matter, but most typically don't provide details as to why this matter is important and what it has to do with how one lives for the Lord.

 

What are the specific reasons this is such an important matter?

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First of all, blending Islam with biblical Christianity is "yoking" Christ with the antichrist religion of Islam and it's god, Allah. The Scriptures warn against this (2 Corinthians 6:14-18)

 

Second, there will be no true lasting peace in the Middle East until the Prince of Peace (Sar Shalom) Jesus Christ returns to reign on David's throne for 1,000 years. All this manmade "land for peace" garbage will not work and is unbiblical (Leviticus 25:23).

 

Third, the body of Christ needs to expose heresy (Ephesians 5:11), reject heretics (Titus 3:10-11), mark false teachers and avoid them (Romans 16:17-18).

 

We can't just "sweep" all these false, ecumenical teachings "under the rug" and we just shouldn't "ignore" them as if they don't exist.  These false teachings are the "fruit" of "professing" Christians not studying the Scriptures and rightly dividing the Word of truth (2 Timothy 2:15).  The more people neglect studying the Scriptures, the more that will be deceived....which is the sign of the last days.  We are living in perilous times (2 Timothy 3:1-5).

 

I have been to other forums and have seen the "fruit" of those "professing" Christians, which is filled with false teaching, antisemitism, and anti-Israel propaganda. 

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You will have noticed that I was in substantial agreement with Showers about the present Gospel "dispensation" & the new covenant as it presently applies. What neither he, nor anyone on this forum, has shown is the Scripture that actually shows where Jesus & his Apostles explicitly teach a future millennium & restoration of Israel as a nation in the land promised to Abraham. The refs. given are "reading in" an assumed doctrine, but they do not teach what is claimed. 

 

First of all, blending Islam with biblical Christianity is "yoking" Christ with the antichrist religion of Islam and it's god, Allah. The Scriptures warn against this (2 Corinthians 6:14-18)

Agreed

 

Second, there will be no true lasting peace in the Middle East until the Prince of Peace (Sar Shalom) Jesus Christ returns to reign on David's throne for 1,000 years. All this manmade "land for peace" garbage will not work and is unbiblical (Leviticus 25:23).

When Jesus returns, there will be eternal peace for the redeemed & eternal hell for the lost. Not just the Midle East. Whether "land for peace" will work better than continual settlement land grabbing is a political question - I can only guess at the answer.

 

The only antisemitism I've seen on this forum is the teaching of the slaughter of 2/3 of the Jews before the survivors turn to Christ. We have a Gospel that counts in Jews, Muslims, Hindus, communists, etc.

 

Third, the body of Christ needs to expose heresy (Ephesians 5:11), reject heretics (Titus 3:10-11), mark false teachers and avoid them (Romans 16:17-18).

Agreed

 

We can't just "sweep" all these false, ecumenical teachings "under the rug" and we just shouldn't "ignore" them as if they don't exist.  These false teachings are the "fruit" of "professing" Christians not studying the Scriptures and rightly dividing the Word of truth (2 Timothy 2:15).  The more people neglect studying the Scriptures, the more that will be deceived....which is the sign of the last days.  We are living in perilous times (2 Timothy 3:1-5).

Agreed, though we've been in the last days since Apostolic times.,

Acts 2:17 And it shall come to pass in the last days, saith God, I will pour out of my Spirit upon all flesh: and your sons and your daughters shall prophesy, and your young men shall see visions, and your old men shall dream dreams:

 

Heb. 1:2 Hath in these last days spoken unto us by his Son, whom he hath appointed heir of all things, by whom also he made the worlds;

 

I have been to other forums and have seen the "fruit" of those "professing" Christians, which is filled with false teaching, antisemitism, and anti-Israel propaganda. 

The only antisemitism I've seen on this forum is the teaching of the slaughter of 2/3 of the Jews before the survivors turn to Christ. We have a Gospel that counts in Jews, Muslims, Hindus, communists, etc. 

Rom. 16:25 Now to him that is of power to stablish you according to my gospel, and the preaching of Jesus Christ, according to the revelation of the mystery, which was kept secret since the world began,

26 But now is made manifest, and by the scriptures of the prophets, according to the commandment of the everlasting God, made known to all nations for the obedience of faith:

27 To God only wise, be glory through Jesus Christ for ever. Amen.

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Covenanter,

 

Here are numerous Scriptures (mainly Old Testament) which prophesy of the tribulation period, restoration of the nation of Israel, and the Millennium.  It doesn't matter if these Scriptures are OT or NT, they are ALL God's Word and His promises to restore Israel will be fulfilled in the future at the Second Coming of Messiah when He sets up His earthly Millennial Kingdom and rules from David's throne in Jerusalem.

 

Psalms 14:7; 72:1-19; 98

Isaiah 2:1-4; 4:2-6; 11:5-9; 27:2-6; 28:5; 29:17-24; 30:18-26; 35:4-10; 40:1-2,10-11; 43:5-6,25-26; 44:21-23; 51:3-11; 52:9; 54; 55:12-13; 59:20-21; 60; 62:8-12; 65:17-25

Jeremiah 30:10,18-22; 31; 32:37-44; 33:6-26; 46:27-28; 50:17-20

Ezekiel 11:17-21; 28:25-26; 34:11-31; 36:8-12,23-38; 37:12-14,21-28; 39:25-29

Daniel 12:1-3

Hosea 1:9-11; 2:14-23; 14:4-9

Joel 3:16-21;

Amos 9:11-15;

Obadiah 1:21

Micah 4:1-8,13; 5:3-15; 7:12-20

Zephaniah 3:8-20;

Haggai 2:6-9

Zechariah 1:16-17; 2; 3:8-10; 6:12-13; 8:3-8,11-15; 9:7-17; 10:3-12; 12:6-14; 13; 14:4-21

Malachi 1:11; 3:1-5; 4

Matthew 19:28-29; 24:29-30

Luke 2:25

Romans 11:25-27

2 Thessalonians 1:7-10

Revelation 19

 

The Millennium is the glorious earthly kingdom Jesus Christ will establish upon His return, the kingdom foretold by Old Testament prophets. Christ's kingdom will not end at the conclusion of the 1,000 years, but will continue forever (Isaiah 9:7)

Edited by LindaR

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Covenanter,

 

Here are numerous Scriptures (mainly Old Testament) which prophesy of the tribulation period, restoration of the nation of Israel, and the Millennium.  It doesn't matter if these Scriptures are OT or NT, they are ALL God's Word and His promises to restore Israel will be fulfilled in the future at the Second Coming of Messiah when He sets up His earthly Millennial Kingdom and rules from David's throne in Jerusalem.

 

........ see above for Scriptures cited

 

The Millennium is the glorious earthly kingdom Jesus Christ will establish upon His return, the kingdom foretold by Old Testament prophets. Christ's kingdom will not end at the conclusion of the 1,000 years, but will continue forever (Isaiah 9:7)

 

How can I answer that impressive list of Scriptures? I'm surprised you start so late in the Bible - Paul starts with the Gospel preached unto Abraham

Gal. 3:Know ye therefore that they which are of faith, the same are the children of Abraham.

And the scripture, foreseeing that God would justify the heathen through faith, preached before the gospel unto Abraham, saying, In thee shall all nations be blessed.

So then they which be of faith are blessed with faithful Abraham.

 

I haven't looked at all those Scriptures to check their relevance, but I fully agree that Scripture prophesies a glorious future for Israel, & that Israel will have periods of trouble (tribulation) & wonderful restoration. I have insisted on NT refs, as the NT writers freely quote the OT, but NEVER promise a glorious future for unbelieving Israelites, converted after Jesus returns, nor an earthly future apart from the NH&NE. Romans 11 suggests an end times revival, but says nothing about restoration as a nation on earth.

 

Your NT rfs:

Matthew 19:28-29; 28 And Jesus said unto them, Verily I say unto you, That ye which have followed me, in the regeneration when the Son of man shall sit in the throne of his glory, ye also shall sit upon twelve thrones, judging the twelve tribes of Israel.

Does that mean judging in the sense of the earthly rulers - the Judges - or that they will judge the tribes for life or damnation at the resurrection. (see Mat. 25 - sheep & goats) It doesn't teach a millennium.

 

 

24:29-30 teaches tribulation & deliverance of the elect. That is consistent with a time of tribulation before Jesus returns, & resurrection to life or damnation.

 

 

Luke 2:25 25 And, behold, there was a man in Jerusalem, whose name was Simeon; and the same man was just and devout, waiting for the consolation of Israel: and the Holy Ghost was upon him.

26 And it was revealed unto him by the Holy Ghost, that he should not see death, before he had seen the Lord's Christ.

Simeon was waiting for the "consolation of Israel" - the Messiah & he saw Jesus.

 

Romans 11:25-27   25 For I would not, brethren, that ye should be ignorant of this mystery, lest ye should be wise in your own conceits; that blindness in part is happened to Israel, until the fulness of the Gentiles be come in.

26 And so all Israel shall be saved: as it is written, There shall come out of Sion the Deliverer, and shall turn away ungodliness from Jacob:

27 For this is my covenant unto them, when I shall take away their sins.

Jesus Christ is the deliverer who fulfilled that prophecy, and who made the NC by his blood. Note "And so all Israel shall be saved: as it is written,..." Many thousands were save in Apostolic times, and delivered from the AD 70 destruction, and are being saved down the centuries.

 

2 Thessalonians 1:7-10  So that we ourselves glory in you in the churches of God for your patience and faith in all your persecutions and tribulations that ye endure:

Which is a manifest token of the righteous judgment of God, that ye may be counted worthy of the kingdom of God, for which ye also suffer:

Seeing it is a righteous thing with God to recompense tribulation to them that trouble you;

And to you who are troubled rest with us, when the Lord Jesus shall be revealed from heaven with his mighty angels,
In flaming fire taking vengeance on them that know not God, and that obey not the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ:

Who shall be punished with everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord, and from the glory of his power;

10 When he shall come to be glorified in his saints, and to be admired in all them that believe (because our testimony among you was believed) in that day.

Believers suffer tribulation at the hands of the ungodly, and when Jesus returns, the ungodly suffer everlasting destruction (tribulation from God) in hell. That flaming fire destruction corresponds to the fire from God in

Rev. 20:And they went up on the breadth of the earth, and compassed the camp of the saints about, and the beloved city: and fire came down from God out of heaven, and devoured them.

 

Revelation 19 is a graphic account of Christ's return to vindicate his saints & destroy the wicked. There were no survivors to populate the "millennium," it reads more like a the Gog-Magog battle referred to in Rev. 20. Note:

15 And out of his mouth goeth a sharp sword, that with it he should smite the nations: and he shall rule them with a rod of iron: and he treadeth the winepress of the fierceness and wrath of Almighty God.

The sword of his mouth is the final word of judgment (see Mat. 25) neither pottery nor grapes survive to be ruled for a millennium.

 

What of OT refs? Start with Deut, 18:16 According to all that thou desiredst of the Lord thy God in Horeb in the day of

the assembly, saying, Let me not hear again the voice of the Lord my God, neither let me see this great fire any more, that I die not.

17 And the Lord said unto me, They have well spoken that which they have spoken.

18 I will raise them up a Prophet from among their brethren, like unto thee, and will put my words in his mouth; and he shall speak unto them all that I shall command him.

19 And it shall come to pass, that whosoever will not hearken unto my words which he shall speak in my name, I will require it of him.

That alludes to Ex. 20:20, following the commandments, & in 19, the glorious promise Peter claims for Christians in 1 Pet. 2. Peter quotes it in Acts 3:

22 For Moses truly said unto the fathers, A prophet shall the Lord your God raise up unto you of your brethren, like unto me; him shall ye hear in all things whatsoever he shall say unto you.

23 And it shall come to pass, that every soul, which will not hear that prophet, shall be destroyed from among the people.

24 Yea, and all the prophets from Samuel and those that follow after, as many as have spoken, have likewise foretold of these days.

25 Ye are the children of the prophets, and of the covenant which God made with our fathers, saying unto Abraham, And in thy seed shall all the kindreds of the earth be blessed.

26 Unto you first God, having raised up his Son Jesus, sent him to bless you, in turning away every one of you from his iniquities.

Notice "these days." There is no suggestion of a postponement of the promises to Israel for a future millennial fulfilment. Come to Jesus NOW or be destroyed. You refer to Mal. 4:

Remember ye the law of Moses my servant, which I commanded unto him in Horeb for all Israel, with the statutes and judgments.

Behold, I will send you Elijah the prophet before the coming of the great and dreadful day of the Lord:

And he shall turn the heart of the fathers to the children, and the heart of the children to their fathers, lest I come and smite the earth with a curse.

Jesus made it clear, & the disciples understood, that John was the prophesied Elijah. Those who did not take warning suffered the curse. Note 1 Thes. 2:

14 For ye, brethren, became followers of the churches of God which in Judaea are in Christ Jesus: for ye also have suffered like things of your own countrymen, even as they have of the Jews:

15 Who both killed the Lord Jesus, and their own prophets, and have persecuted us; and they please not God, and are contrary to all men:

16 Forbidding us to speak to the Gentiles that they might be saved, to fill up their sins alway: for the wrath is come upon them to the uttermost.

 

You are imposing an "end times" dispensational system on Scripture, but it just isn't there when we simply read the living word. The Apostles never suggested to the Jews who rejected the Gospel that they could wait until Jesus comes again & then they could be saved. There is no such suggestion anywhere in Scripture. There is certainly the repeated prophecy that he would come & save them, & establish his eternal & glorious kingdom. He has come; he has FINISHED his saving work.

John 1:11 He came unto his own, and his own received him not.

12 But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name:

13 Which were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God.

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Amos 9 - the tabernacle of David - is quoted by James (Acts 15) to show that the conversion of the pagans in Gospel days is according to prophecy.

 

Obadiah is concerned with the judgement of Edom & concludes with the kingd987 om shall be the LORD'S.

 

Micah 4:1-8,13; 5:3-15; 7:12-20

Micah 4 (Isaiah 2) is a vision of the true temple - comprising believers from all nations, living at peace with each other & their God.

Micah 5 - (why not include v. 2 ?) is about Jesus, born at Bethlehem, being our peace.

Micah 7 (& many other Scriptures) sing of the perfect restoration of the believing remnant of Israel 18 Who is a God like unto thee, that pardoneth iniquity, and passeth by the transgression of the remnant of his heritage? he retaineth not his anger for ever, because he delighteth in mercy.

 

Zephaniah is a prophecy from the time of Josiah - before the Babylonian captivity - & is concerned with the judgement, destruction & captivity of Jerusalem, the preservation of the remnant & ultimately the restoration.

 

Certainly in all these there is a glorious restoration of Israel, & punishment of the wicked nations. When we look at these prophecies the way Jesus & the Apostles looked them, we see tribulation & we see eternal blessing for Israel & we see that the LORD is King. We do not see the elaborate dispensational scheme you are defending.

 

You claim:

The Millennium is the glorious earthly kingdom Jesus Christ will establish upon His return, the kingdom foretold by Old Testament prophets. Christ's kingdom will not end at the conclusion of the 1,000 years, but will continue forever (Isaiah 9:7)

No. If the millennium does end with a world wide, Satan-led rebellion, as Scripture indicates, then it is NOT the fulfilment of prophecy for Israel. Christ is reigning on earth, & saving his redeemed people. The glorious reign of Christ on earth does not fail (is it does in the premil scheme). The next prophetic event is Christ bring fire from heaven to save the day, & then God brings about a NH&NE.

 

The Rev. 20 millennium reads like the present Gospel age, with the souls of the martyrs in heaven, NOT on earth. Satan is a defeated enemy, so that the Gospel spreads among all nations. That is accompanied by persecution by the ungodly, so we are waiting for Jesus' return to vindicate us. As 2 Thes. 1 says, that coming will be final for the ungodly, & glorious for the saved. At Jesus coming, the tares will be gathered & burnt, not kept alive for 1000 years. Now is the time when the tares are allowed to grow together with the wheat - & many of those tares are changing - God has power to save.

Edited by Covenanter

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