God Created Evil

[TheSword]

I'm sure in your head you're already formulating arguments against the title of this thread and you're probably thinking I've gone of the theological deep end. It seems to fly in the face of everything we think about God as being good and loving right? I too, was a bit taken aback when I read the following verse:

 

Isaiah 45:7 - I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I the Lord do all these things.

 

I read this in my early-morning Bible time yesterday (incidentally I'm also taking a seminary classes on Isaiah and the Doctrine of God at the moment). At first I thought I read that wrong or maybe didn't catch the context. However, this verse lies in the middle of a series of emphatic statements by God about Himself and His absolute sovereignty. I then thought well maybe there's some deeper meaning in the Hebrew that I'm missing. Nope, it's almost always translated evil throughout the KJV OT (shocker...I know). It's right there plain as day. God created evil and there's no way around it.

 

I was semi-troubled about this so I prayed that He would illuminate this passage for me so that I could better understand why. I went back to it this morning and something else caught my attention. It is mentioned in parallel to His creation of light and darkness. As darkness is the absence of light, it was a natural result of the creating of light. By creating light, He simultaneously created darkness. It is one creative act. Similarly, as defined in the Hebrew, evil boils down to the absence of good/peace/righteousness. By being and creating good/peace/righteousness He necessarily creates evil. If there were no evil, then the concept of good would have meaning. This is not to be construed as saying God causes evil or sin, but rather His creation of all things good brought it into existence as a potentiality.

 

Thoughts?

[Ukulelemike]

I'm sure in your head you're already formulating arguments against the title of this thread and you're probably thinking I've gone of the theological deep end. It seems to fly in the face of everything we think about God as being good and loving right? I too, was a bit taken aback when I read the following verse:

 

Isaiah 45:7 - I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I the Lord do all these things.

 

I read this in my early-morning Bible time yesterday (incidentally I'm also taking a seminary classes on Isaiah and the Doctrine of God at the moment). At first I thought I read that wrong or maybe didn't catch the context. However, this verse lies in the middle of a series of emphatic statements by God about Himself and His absolute sovereignty. I then thought well maybe there's some deeper meaning in the Hebrew that I'm missing. Nope, it's almost always translated evil throughout the KJV OT (shocker...I know). It's right there plain as day. God created evil and there's no way around it.

 

I was semi-troubled about this so I prayed that He would illuminate this passage for me so that I could better understand why. I went back to it this morning and something else caught my attention. It is mentioned in parallel to His creation of light and darkness. As darkness is the absence of light, it was a natural result of the creating of light. By creating light, He simultaneously created darkness. It is one creative act. Similarly, as defined in the Hebrew, evil boils down to the absence of good/peace/righteousness. By being and creating good/peace/righteousness He necessarily creates evil. If there were no evil, then the concept of good would have meaning. This is not to be construed as saying God causes evil or sin, but rather His creation of all things good brought it into existence as a potentiality.

 

Thoughts?

Evil has different meaning-the evil we tend to think of is wickedness-that is one. However, evil also refers to trouble and tribulation and even destruction, which the Lord also creates. For instance, when he rained fire on Sodom and the cities of the plain-at first, they enjoyed peace, which the Lord created and allowed for them until their wickedness, THEIR evil, became too much, then God rained fire upon them- destruction-evil in their eyes. This is the evil it is speaking of. Or th evil spirit sent from before the Lord to trouble Saul-he wasn't evil, as in wicked, but evil as in troubling.  

 

So evil can mean that which is wicked, that which is destructive and that which is troubling. God didn't create wickedness, though He did allow it.

[TheSword]

Evil has different meaning-the evil we tend to think of is wickedness-that is one. However, evil also refers to trouble and tribulation and even destruction, which the Lord also creates. For instance, when he rained fire on Sodom and the cities of the plain-at first, they enjoyed peace, which the Lord created and allowed for them until their wickedness, THEIR evil, became too much, then God rained fire upon them- destruction-evil in their eyes. This is the evil it is speaking of. Or th evil spirit sent from before the Lord to trouble Saul-he wasn't evil, as in wicked, but evil as in troubling.  

 

So evil can mean that which is wicked, that which is destructive and that which is troubling. God didn't create wickedness, though He did allow it.

 

Some very good points and I mostly agree with you here. I think the thought process still works for wickedness though, does it not? If nothing came into being without Him (John 1:3), then anything in existence, whether physical or conceptual, came into being as a result of His creative acts. Otherwise we have to conclude that either wickedness pre-existed with God or that something/someone else had the power to bring it to existence.

 

It appears (to me at this present time at least..I'm still thinking through it as we discuss), that once God began creating He set a standard of good/bad based on His nature. That which was according to His nature is good and that which goes against His nature is bad/evil/wickedness. Therefore, by creating anything and defining good, bad/evil/wickedness came into being as anything on the other side of the demarcation line.

 

Consider this crude analogy. I have a 19-month-old son. He has very little idea about what good and bad is, merely certain things that draw a consequence or rebuke at this point. If I were to set an arbitrary rule based on my preference for something, breaking that rule becomes disobedience and thus wickedness in terms of parent-child relationship. Let's say it's something like no electronics like phones or tv are allowed at dinner time so that we can have a nice family meal. If, as he gets older, he gets up from the table to go turn on the tv, he's just sinned against me. So it is with divine righteousness and wickedness. God created a definition of righteousness based on His nature and thus simultaneously created a definition for wickedness.

[irishman]

Sword, with your reasoning then, in Heaven where no evil exists, a "lesser good" would have to be considered evil, right?  Different levels of good would then be "good and evil", while evil, as we understand it, would be non-existent--that is if the opposite must exist and the contrast seen. 

[TheSword]

Sword, with your reasoning then, in Heaven where no evil exists, a "lesser good" would have to be considered evil, right?  Different levels of good would then be "good and evil", while evil, as we understand it, would be non-existent--that is if the opposite must exist and the contrast seen. 

 

That's an intriguing point; though I'm inclined to disagree. That would assume that there are simultaneous varying levels of good and evil in all things as opposed to definitively one or the other. If evil is the absence of good then the presence of good necessitates lack of evil. Following the parallel in Isaiah 45:7 above, where light shines, there is no darkness (John 1:5) because God made a distinction between the two and separated them (Gen 1:3). There may be varying levels of the brightness of that light, but no darkness because it is the absence of light.

 

If I were to compare it to cake (because I love cake)...Vanilla cake is good and chocolate cake is good. Chocolate cake is way better than vanilla cake; but that does not make vanilla bad. Chocolate cake just has more good than vanilla cake. Both can be good without either being bad. You therefore have good and not as good. So it would be in heaven. God is good and we will be less good in our glorified bodies (for we are not good here on earth, but bad/evil; Rom 3:10-23). There can be contrasts in levels of goodness without the presence of evil. This is where the logic takes me anyway.

 

I think, perhaps, the way God has declared good/evil appears to be a high-set demarcation between the two where everything above is good and everything below is evil. If everything in heaven is above the cut line, then it is all good. That would not necessitate evil existing along side it, but rather elsewhere as it always has here on earth and in hell. In the final judgement when all that is evil is thrown into the lake of fire, that's where it will be. Makes me wonder if the lake of fire will cease to exist, thus taking evil with it and returning existence to a state of perfection being without an observable good-bad dichotomy...hmmm maybe I shouldn't type while I think 

[Ukulelemike]

Some very good points and I mostly agree with you here. I think the thought process still works for wickedness though, does it not? If nothing came into being without Him (John 1:3), then anything in existence, whether physical or conceptual, came into being as a result of His creative acts. Otherwise we have to conclude that either wickedness pre-existed with God or that something/someone else had the power to bring it to existence.

 

It appears (to me at this present time at least..I'm still thinking through it as we discuss), that once God began creating He set a standard of good/bad based on His nature. That which was according to His nature is good and that which goes against His nature is bad/evil/wickedness. Therefore, by creating anything and defining good, bad/evil/wickedness came into being as anything on the other side of the demarcation line.

 

Consider this crude analogy. I have a 19-month-old son. He has very little idea about what good and bad is, merely certain things that draw a consequence or rebuke at this point. If I were to set an arbitrary rule based on my preference for something, breaking that rule becomes disobedience and thus wickedness in terms of parent-child relationship. Let's say it's something like no electronics like phones or tv are allowed at dinner time so that we can have a nice family meal. If, as he gets older, he gets up from the table to go turn on the tv, he's just sinned against me. So it is with divine righteousness and wickedness. God created a definition of righteousness based on His nature and thus simultaneously created a definition for wickedness.

Basically, then, what you're saying, is that, while God did not, per se, "create' evil, or wickedness, by defining righteousness according to His character, he made provision for the existence of wickedness, and by default, 'created' evil. I can see your point. Not sure I fully agree, just because we are still struggling to view the eternal through our temporal vision, but an intriguing thought. 

 

However, the verse in question is not referring to the original creation of evil, but an ongoing process, as the Lord is peaking in the present tense, "I create evil", not, "I created evil", which is why I understand it the way that I do: God can give peace, or he can take it away, and create evil where there had been peace:  Opposites, here: light and darkness, peace and evil, (trouble/destruction/war?) Even the first part seems a comment on an ongoing process: form the light, create darkness. Darkness is the absence of light-the Lord daily forms the light, and each night, as the light withdraws, he creates darkness: a dissertation on the hand of God being continually involved even in the natural world. His sustaining power. As well, the hand of God on the events of the world and man, in peace and trouble.

[brosmith]

I was semi-troubled about this so I prayed that He would illuminate this passage for me so that I could better understand why. I went back to it this morning and something else caught my attention. It is mentioned in parallel to His creation of light and darkness. As darkness is the absence of light, it was a natural result of the creating of light. By creating light, He simultaneously created darkness. It is one creative act. Similarly, as defined in the Hebrew, evil boils down to the absence of good/peace/righteousness. By being and creating good/peace/righteousness He necessarily creates evil. If there were no evil, then the concept of good would have meaning. This is not to be construed as saying God causes evil or sin, but rather His creation of all things good brought it into existence as a potentiality.

 

There is a big problem with your analogy and conclusion.

 

Genesis 1:1-5, "In the beginning God created the heaven and the earth. And the earth was without form, and void; and darkness was upon the face of the deep. And the Spirit of God moved upon the face of the waters. And God said, Let there be light: and there was light. And God saw the light, that it was good: and God divided the light from the darkness. And God called the light Day, and the darkness he called Night. And the evening and the morning were the first day."

 

Darkness was before light. God created the darkness then he created light. Darkness and light are separate and distinct. The absence of light does not create darkness and the absence of darkness does not create light. Light and darkness are unique creations of God.

 

Bro Steve Smith

brosmith@pioneerbaptist.org

www.pioneerbaptist.org

[TheSword]

However, the verse in question is not referring to the original creation of evil, but an ongoing process, as the Lord is peaking in the present tense, "I create evil", not, "I created evil", which is why I understand it the way that I do: God can give peace, or he can take it away, and create evil where there had been peace:  Opposites, here: light and darkness, peace and evil, (trouble/destruction/war?) Even the first part seems a comment on an ongoing process: form the light, create darkness. Darkness is the absence of light-the Lord daily forms the light, and each night, as the light withdraws, he creates darkness: a dissertation on the hand of God being continually involved even in the natural world. His sustaining power. As well, the hand of God on the events of the world and man, in peace and trouble.

 

That's a great point on it being an ongoing process. Do you think, perhaps, that one is a consequence of the other's presence? It is often talked about God removing His hand of protection or blessing as a means of judgement. Is it possible that to create evil means to cease making peace and letting the sin-ridden world loose?

[TheSword]

There is a big problem with your analogy and conclusion.

 

Genesis 1:1-5, "In the beginning God created the heaven and the earth. And the earth was without form, and void; and darkness was upon the face of the deep. And the Spirit of God moved upon the face of the waters. And God said, Let there be light: and there was light. And God saw the light, that it was good: and God divided the light from the darkness. And God called the light Day, and the darkness he called Night. And the evening and the morning were the first day."

 

Darkness was before light. God created the darkness then he created light. Darkness and light are separate and distinct. The absence of light does not create darkness and the absence of darkness does not create light. Light and darkness are unique creations of God.

 

Bro Steve Smith

brosmith@pioneerbaptist.org

www.pioneerbaptist.org

 

Wow, excellent point on darkness existing before light! Not really sure how I missed that. However, I would still maintain that darkness is the absence of light, for light always overtakes darkness and yet darkness can never overtake light. A single match in the deepest and darkest cave is still visible. There are no degrees of darkness, but there is a continuous spectrum of light from none to unquantifiable. Your argument that darkness existed before light supports this point. There was no light, therefore darkness was the only thing in existence. I'm not prepared to be dogmatic on this, but the language seems to indicate that when God created light, darkness was not present until God purposely separated them in verse 4.

 

Your reasoning that the creation of darkness is not predicated on the creation of light though is good. Though I am reminded of 1 John 1:5 that says "God is light." Would this mean that light indeed pre-existed darkness as a quality of God? Otherwise 1 John 1:5 should be taken metaphorically because God does not change (Mal 3:6; Heb 13:8) correct?

[No Nicolaitans]

I agree with Ukulelemike on this.  The verse in question is dealing with opposites.  Yes, there is "spiritual" peace and evil; however, the verse is talking of literals...in my view.  Literal peace and literal evil.

 

This verse from Amos may shed light on it...

 

Amos 3:6 

Shall a trumpet be blown in the city, and the people not be afraid? shall there be evil in a city, and the LORD hath not done it?

 

The evil being spoken of here is calamity (or destruction) to a city...against the entire city...and it's clear that the LORD is in control of it. Such is the evil spoken of in Isaiah...  

[Ukulelemike]

That's a great point on it being an ongoing process. Do you think, perhaps, that one is a consequence of the other's presence? It is often talked about God removing His hand of protection or blessing as a means of judgement. Is it possible that to create evil means to cease making peace and letting the sin-ridden world loose?

I think it would be fair to say, yes, at least to a point. If God removes His hand of blessing, or protection, often because have have done that which causes it, it opens us up to trouble we don't need. More often than not, though, I suspect we step out of His protective boundaries, and get in trouble.

[ASongOfDegrees]

I agree with Ukulelmike. Evil in the context of Isaiah 45:7 is "bad things, man" not immorality. 

[heartstrings]

A great white shark eats a little seal pup...bad thing for the seal pup.

A pod of orcas harasses, kills and eats a baby grey whale....not good for the baby whale.

A vampire bat sucks blood from a cow, chicken, deer, human etc....bad thing for the victim.

A pack of wolves kills a caribou calf and begins eating before it's dead...bad.

Two bull moose, two whitetailed deer, or two bighorn sheep battle it out until one is badly injured and dies....bad for the loser.

What...they weren't meant to battle until "after the fall"??? Then why did God give them horns? horns are  weapons.....

These are all "bad"/"evil"....but NOT sin.

[irishman]

Very interesting conjectures.  Keep in mind that even when there is light, a certain amount of darkness can be present, awaiting it's chance to jump in and consume the light. 

 

Illustration: At the darkest hour of the night, flip on the light switch.  Notice there are still shadows in certain places, different stages of light, they are not complete darkness until the switch if turned off again, then light lingers on the fringes of the darkness.  A simple analogy, but I believe it makes the point well. 

 

God did create the light out of darkness, even before the sun, but He could see in the dark, and, of course, made no mistake when we banished the darkness.  Still, he made provision for darkness to have its rein also, when the time was right.

[heartstrings]

2 Chronicles 6:1 is another intriguing verse.......