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Donald

The Answer

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I just finished listening to(or rather paused in the middle), of a wonderful message preached by CH Spurgeon,....
http://www.crosscco.com/sermons/dare-to-be-daniel-by-charles-haddon-spurgeon/

In part of this message, Spurgeon was preaching about first, “not bringing the theater into the Church”, but then went on to preach(in so many words), that we should not ever attend the theater ourselves, etc.  and told us that “this was a general principle” and that we should apply it ourselves. Praise the Lord I was listening to this message on MP3 and was able to pause it and pray then to continue.  

But it was during one of these times of prayer, that I think the Lord gave me an answer to the apparent disagreement that I seem to have with lots of the people here on this forum.  We are all professing Christians and professing IFB’s and many of us are ministers, yet I seem to hit a brick wall with most of you over this subject.
I believe the answer is, “THE APPLICATION OF OUR CALLING”!

Each of us have a calling, to minister to others(whether in the ministry or not).  And it’s the application of that calling, that is in question.  Many of you(along with Spurgeon), choose a “stricter” application of your calling, in hopes that this stricter application will make your ministry more effective.

Most conservative preachers, feel that the world is so wicked and there are so many temptations that all of us face, that our preaching needs to be as “tight” as we can preach it.  Just as with Spurgeon; There was nothing “sinful” about the theater itself(although it had no place in the Church), but because some plays were wicked and some actors were ungodly, the best way to preach, in order to “protect the people” he was preaching to, was to suggest that they totally avoid the theater.  This was his “application of his calling”.

Now my application of my calling, is to simply preach what the Bible says and allow the Lord to do the same thing in other people’s lives, as He did(and is doing), in my life.  Now although Spurgeon was a GREAT PREACHER, he was just a man(just like me).  And I think the mistake that Spurgeon made in this area, was taking the people “out of the Lord’s care” and putting them “into his own care”.

This application of ministry, is wrong because it forgets that God is still on His throne in heaven and that He is able to WORK in the lives of the people that we preach to.  Therefore(because we have forgotten this), we try to work in people’s lives by building our own fences around them to protect them from themselves.

Now for sure, very young Christians can use “some guidance”, but we need to be careful not to overdo this guidance, so that they can learn to seek guidance from the Lord!

 

Edited by Donald

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This is what I see as the problem.

I am willing to give you the benefit of the doubt, and operate under the principle that perhaps the Lord has given you liberty in areas that I don't have liberty in.  I am going to assume that maybe the Lord is letting you listen to some rock music, and not chastise you over it. 

The problem is that just because God allows YOU to do it does not mean that this same God will allow ME to do it. 

The great Biblical example is David.  David committed to sins worthy of death under the OT Law - adultery and murder.  Yet the Lord in His grace and mercy pardoned David and let him live.  Does that mean that we can all commit adultery and murder now? 

The obvious answer is an emphatic and resounding NO! 

And so it is with the arguments you are advancing here.  Maybe the Lord really IS letting you listen that music - but does that give you the right to brag about what is so offensive to so many others?  This is indeed the stumblingblock of liberty the apostle Paul warned us against in Romans 14 and I Cor. 8.

I cannot begin to explain how and why God uses the people He does - but He does.  The Lord takes a yielded person and uses them "lock, stock, and barrel" for His own purposes.  The Lord might even let those called people "get away" with doing things that you and I would never dream of doing - and yet the Lord's hand of blessing is so evident upon the man and his ministry, that we cannot help but say that the Lord has used that person in a mighty way.

But just because that ONE MAN did something and the Lord did not stop him from doing it, does not necessarily mean that EVERYONE can do that same thing.

 

Example:

Countless multitudes were saved under the preaching of John Wesley and George Whitefield - yet they were Episcopalian, who endorsed baby-sprinkling.  Why did God use them?   Beats the fire out of me!  But the facts are the facts, and God used those two men to start many great things in England and America. 

 

Example:

An evangelist friend of mine told me that he had a meeting up in the mountains of NC - way back up in the hills.  When he pulled into the church parking lot on Sunday morning, he saw a bunch of them outside the door, smoking cigarettes and spitting tobacco.  He asked the Lord, "Can I smoke too?"  The Lord told him, "NO!"  My friend responded, "But Lord, you are letting these folks smoke and chew, why can't I?"  And the Lord told him, "Son, those are my kids over there.  You do what I tell you, and let me take care of them, OK?" 

 

I hope you get the point.  God may let you personally "get away" with things that He may not allow everyone else to "get away" with - for whatever reason.  Fine.  But let's not make the false presumption that just because God is letting YOU get away with something that this is now the "new normal" and that EVERYONE can do it.   That simply is not the case.

 

And if the vast majority of KJV, Bible-Believing IFB churches are preaching against something, maybe you should stop to consider WHY they are doing it, and re-evaluate your position.  If nothing else, just assume that maybe you are one of God's "special kids" that He has chosen to spoil a little bit.  And that means, assume that God has a higher standard that He is going to hold everyone else to.

 

My advice to you is (1) thank the Lord for your liberty, but at the same time (2) stop bragging about it, and (3) stop trying to encourage everyone else to do as you do in regards to your liberties....maybe the Lord will take them to task over it!

 

In the meantime, I will continue to preach against the evils of rock music, the evils of modern TV and entertainment, and won't give much room for liberty in it.  The simple reasons I have already given before.  Those things have an adverse affect upon the thought, speech, and activity patterns.  We are to seek after HOLINESS, and we can't do that if we are rolling around in the muck of the world.

 

In Christ,

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Why enjoy sins being portraying against God? How can a Christian enjoy sins being portrayed against the God they claim to love & obey? We who belong to God are supposed to have been transformed, changed, to have overcome the world, & as we live our life prove what is good, and acceptable, and perfect, will of God, Romans 12:1,2.

 

1Pe 1:15 But as he which hath called you is holy, so be ye holy in all manner of conversation;

1Pe 1:16 Because it is written, Be ye holy; for I am holy.
 
None of us are perfect {holy}, yet we really need to strive to become perfect, {holy}, & not go out of our way to not be holy by enjoying worldly entertainment that's sensual. Especially if your one of the called. 

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Hello Steve

Did you even read my OP?

No, you don’t see the problem.
I am not talking about music at all; I am talking about “our ministry to others”!
(Your ministry and my ministry!)

First of all, I am not calling your ministry “wrong” and mine “right”, I am simply pointing out differences in them.
------------------------
In your ministry to “Christians”, you are building theological fences around them, to protect them; The fences you are building around them are barriers to keep them from hurting themselves.
You are telling them, that certain things are “SIN”, when these things are not sin!
(This is to keep them from viewing or listening certain things that you think will hurt them.)

Even though you have the purest of intentions, you are hurting them even more;

By preventing them from being forced to go to the Lord for guidance.

This is just like the theological fences that the pharisees used to build around the people they ministered to; By teaching them that they had to do all of these ceremonial washings, before they ate.
(Now I am NOT calling you a “pharisee”, I am just pointing out that they did the same thing.)
------------------------
On the other hand, in my ministry to Christians, I preach to them, the whole counsel of God and trust the Lord, to use the preaching of His Word, to guide them into all righteousness.

This has been my point, from my very first thread.
 

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I'm with Steve, I saw your reference of Spurgeon's message and how it directly relates to your rock-n-roll.  The Lord will chastise you for continuing to listen to it and it will stunt your growth in sanctification.  As for that application calling and hangman's noose, that went over my head.  I use the uni-knot for fishing.   :D

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Donald,

 

Basically you are like many I´ve met over the years. It´s just trying to justify the non separation form the world and maintain that one is still a spiritual person.

The word of God teaches that what we put in our minds will in fact affect or lead to actions.

It´s not really complicated.

 

It´s not so much about standards that are pleasing to the Lord, as that of course does depend upon ones´personal views. What true spirituality deals with is not tolerance or acceptance, but what the mind is fixed upon.

 

Dozens of verses speak of the mind, of bringing into subjection to Christ, filling it with thoughts that are godly, pious and wholesome.

 

Colossians 3 says, If ye then be risen with Christ, seek those things which are above, where Christ sitteth on the right hand of God. Set your affection on things above, not on things on the earth. The key word is not IF, but the key words here are imperative verbs, SEEK and SET. You are commanded to take your mind of of the things of this world. This world is a system of thought, a philosophical mindset, a world view. If you are in agreement with the current of the world, (it´s styles, it´s fashions, it´s habits, it´s politics, it´s speech, it´s music, it´s religions....) then you have your affections on the things of the earth.

 

Paul continues and gives specific examples, but before he does notice that the things above are not "heavenly" but "in" heaven. There is a big differencve. Heavenly is more of an emotion, a sentiment, while in heaven speaks to specific tangible items. Jesus is in heaven, He is not "heavenly". Next to Him is the Father. Sitting on throne. That throne speaks of authority, which in turn tells us of submission to rule, to creed, to edicts. Your loyalties must be to that throne, not the system of the world.

 

Paul´s list says plainly,

Mortify therefore your members which are upon the earth; fornication, uncleanness, inordinate affection, evil concupiscence, and covetousness, which is idolatry: For which things' sake the wrath of God cometh on the children of disobedience:In the which ye also walked some time, when ye lived in them.

 

Fornication is wrong. Relationships outside of marriage are just wrong.

Uncleanness - Impurity, contamination, dirt, (does that movie you just watched promote God? Does it make light of the consecuences of sin? Did it in fact show people making decisions that are sinful? Robbing banks, flaunting authority, recklessness? What the world calls Action and Adventure movie is mostly the glorification of sinful behavior and the bad guy is actually the hero!!  How many Christians watch Dexter? The man is a cold blooded murderer who is gruesome in his form of justice, taking vengeance in his own hands in violation of God´s word. Yet many love the show, hope Dexter gets away, are worried he´ll get caught!! It´s just an example, I don´t know what you watch. But if a Christian can watch wickedness like that and then say it´s not really a problem, therein lies the problem.

Inordinate affection - lust, extravagant desires, immoderate (like the idea that a Christian can moderately imbibe alcohol)
Evil concupiscence - Covetousness, .... I think we agree that these things ought not to be a part of our thought life or process.

But the amazing thing that Paul says, at least to me is this, In the which ye also walked some time, when YE LIVED IN THEM.

Pauls says, I cannot for the life of me understand how a person, freed from the bondage of sin, freed form the slavery to wickedness in their right mind could ever want to go back to that!

 

My speech patterns, my thought life, my dress and style, my habits, my music, my fiends, my way of life.... How in the world could I ever desire to go back to that!!?? How could I EVER want to incorporate that kind of lifestyle into my new life I have with Christ!!??

 

You must be insane. You must be insane.

 

You argument is a thinly veiled attempt at libertine theology, it´s hedonism for Christians and if you can´t see it, my beloved brother, therein lies the problem. You affections are not set on things above, but on things on the earth.

 

God bless,

calvary
 

Edited by Calvary

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Did you even read my OP?

 

Yes....

 

I am not talking about music at all; I am talking about “our ministry to others”!

 

Music was the example....and despite your denial, you come back to the same general issue, as noted here in your OP:

 

 Most conservative preachers, feel that the world is so wicked and there are so many temptations that all of us face, that our preaching needs to be as “tight” as we can preach it.  Just as with Spurgeon; There was nothing “sinful” about the theater itself(although it had no place in the Church), but because some plays were wicked and some actors were ungodly, the best way to preach, in order to “protect the people” he was preaching to, was to suggest that they totally avoid the theater.  This was his “application of his calling”.

 

You make it sound like we are preaching our opinions, or like we are overprotective mothers all worried about our children or something.....Why make this assumption?  Why can you not accept that what we are preaching comes from our very own convictions about the things of the world, and things that are inherently sinful, evil, and harmful to the Christian?  Why do you ASSUME that this is our motive?

 

In your ministry to “Christians”, you are building theological fences around them, to protect them; The fences you are building around them are barriers to keep them from hurting themselves.
You are telling them, that certain things are “SIN”, when these things are not sin!
(This is to keep them from viewing or listening certain things that you think will hurt them.)

 

1.  My manner of preaching is to show them FROM THE BIBLE why I believe a thing is sin.  It is not fence building, it is BIBLE PREACHING. 

2.  My manner of preaching is to present the truth, and bring them to the point of decision.  If they choose to partake in an activity that I have demonstrated from the Bible is sin, that is their decision.  But they have been warned. 

3.  THE LAST THING ON MY MIND WHEN I PREACH IS erecting "fences."  The FIRST thing on my mind is "will this sermon please the Lord, and bring glory to Jesus Christ." 

 

On the other hand, in my ministry to Christians, I preach to them, the whole counsel of God and trust the Lord, to use the preaching of His Word, to guide them into all righteousness.

 

Brother, this is an absurd statement. 

You are implying that I do NOT preach the whole counsel of God to our church, that I do NOT trust the Lord to guide them to all righteousness through the preaching of the word. 

What utter nonsense! 

What presumption and arrogance!

To accuse us of acting like the PHarisees, of making man-made doctrines, and ASSUMING that we have no Biblical Authority to declare rock music evil, or TV evil, etc, etc. etc.  is simply ridiculous. 

I do not preach anything without studying the matter out, and making a case for or against a thing without sufficient CONCLUSIVE evidence FROM THE BIBLE.

I do not ride hobby horses - I do my best to give a good balance in the preaching.  Some messages are pure doctrine, some are more practical, some address current problems within our society from Biblical perspective.  You are making a lot of assumptions on my ministry (and others) with absolutely no knowledge of our ministries.  You have painted with such a broad brush that you assume anyone who preaches against rock music is just like somebody you heard.  Your assumptions are false, and your presumptions are offensive.

 

In Christ,

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Hello Steve and thanks for getting back with me.

You said.........
“You make it sound like we are preaching our opinions, or like we are overprotective mothers all worried about our children or something.....Why make this assumption?  Why can you not accept that what we are preaching comes from our very own convictions about the things of the world, and things that are inherently sinful, evil, and harmful to the Christian?  Why do you ASSUME that this is our motive?”

My assumption was that you truly care about the people you are ministering to:
And I know that is true.

As for the fact that your preaching “comes from your very own convictions”:
This is the issue.

Back in 1982, a few months after my wife trusted Christ as her Savior, she shared with me that the Lord has “convicted” her that she should stop wearing pants; And immediately she threw all of her pants away and to this day she only wears dresses or skirts.
(But even as a baby Christian, she knew that this “CONVICTION” was for her only!)
And not once has she ever(even as a pastor’s wife), told any other Christian woman not to wear pants.

Do you know why?
Because the Bible doesn’t say anything about women wearing pants!

Now you have a “CONVICTION” that secular music is wrong and sinful.  Fine.
But have the good sense not to preach about it, because IT IS NOT IN THE BIBLE!

Oh by the way, MUSIC has been around a long, long time!  And as we all know Satan used to be a kind of song leader, before he was kicked out of heaven.
If music is such a powerful tool to turn people away from the Lord, why is there not even one example of Satan using it to do that, in the Bible?
------------------------
After I accused you of “building theological fences” to protect people from things that you believe can hurt them, you said........
1.  My manner of preaching is to show them FROM THE BIBLE why I believe a thing is sin.  It is not fence building, it is BIBLE PREACHING.
2.  My manner of preaching is to present the truth, and bring them to the point of decision.  If they choose to partake in an activity that I have demonstrated from the Bible is sin, that is their decision.  But they have been warned.
3.  THE LAST THING ON MY MIND WHEN I PREACH IS erecting "fences."  The FIRST thing on my mind is "will this sermon please the Lord, and bring glory to Jesus Christ."


#2 was interesting to me....
“If they choose to partake in an activity that I have demonstrated from the Bible is sin, that is their decision.  But they have been warned.”

Brother, from my very first thread on this subject, this is what I have been begging for.
(Please show me some Scripture that will demonstrate to me that secular music is sin.)

Your most compelling Scripture has been Ephesians 5:
And here is a good verse from that chapter.......
“And have no fellowship with the unfruitful works of darkness, but rather reprove [them].” (Ephesians 5:11)

I believe that my response to you about this list of Scriptures was they can only be applied to secular music, if it has already been established that all secular music is sinful.  Scripture does not establish that.

Someone else responded to me in one of these threads(trying to help me see the light), and they shared how “they” had learned the truth about the sinfulness of secular music.
They recounted how years ago, they had asked their pastor about this issue and he was also unable to show them any Scripture on the subject.  So he gave him some books on the subject and asked him to read these books and pray about it; And after reading what “other men” had to say about the subject, he came to understand the evils of secular music.

This is the WRONG WAY for any of us, to shape our beliefs!
------------------------
Next you said.......
To accuse us of acting like the PHarisees, of making man-made doctrines, and ASSUMING that we have no Biblical Authority to declare rock music evil, or TV evil, etc, etc. etc.  is simply ridiculous.
I do not preach anything without studying the matter out, and making a case for or against a thing without sufficient CONCLUSIVE evidence FROM THE BIBLE.
I do not ride hobby horses - I do my best to give a good balance in the preaching.  Some messages are pure doctrine, some are more practical, some address current problems within our society from Biblical perspective.  You are making a lot of assumptions on my ministry (and others) with absolutely no knowledge of our ministries.  You have painted with such a broad brush that you assume anyone who preaches against rock music is just like somebody you heard.  Your assumptions are false, and your presumptions are offensive.


Steve, one can only assume that you ride the “hobby horse” of “the evils of secular music”, because of how strongly you have responded to my threads.  

As for being “like” the Pharisees; Remember they were the IFB’s of their time.  They told others they believed God’s Word and made a big deal of it, but they had lost their way.

They were so busy rebuking people for picking corn on the Sabbath day or spending time with sinners, that they forgot the truly important things.

This is the danger of wasting one minute of our valuable pulpit time talking about the evils of TV or secular music.  What good does it do to get our people to toss out their TV’s and burn their secular music, when they are living like the devil in the rest of their life.  
If we preach against lying, cheating and stealing and the hypocrisy of saying you’re a Christian and doing these things...Now that is preaching.

I have seen so many of my Christian Brothers, who were caught up in the condemnation of superficial things like rock music or dancing or TV or women wearing pants....
Who’s lives were filled with truly wicked and selfish things!

It’s almost like their hearts(our hearts), are only able to examine and sift out a limited amount of JUNK from our lives.  And those of us who waste our time concentrating on these superficial things, end up overlooking the truly important areas of our life.

I have NEVER met a legalist, who had a sweet Christlike spirit!
They are ALWAYS bitter finger pointing hypocrites; And they don’t even realize this about themselves.

Steve, I don’t know the first thing about your ministry and I apologize for offending you. But I don’t apologize, for taking a stand for preaching “sound Biblical Doctrine”; And casting aside superficial pet doctrines, that men have convinced us are sin.
 

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 As for the fact that your preaching “comes from your very own convictions”:

 

Brother, the context of my statements should have been clear to you.  I am not speaking of man-made convictions, but rather, BIBLE BASED convictions.  I believe and practice the Baptist principle that the Bible is the final authority in ALL MATTERS of faith (what I believe) and practice (what I do.)  And I don't believe in "proof-texting" my "convictions," but rather base my beliefs and subsequent practices on a THOROUGH study of Scripture.

It goes without saying, if you pay attention to the context of my statements. 

 And not once has she ever(even as a pastor’s wife), told any other Christian woman not to wear pants.

 Do you know why?

 Because the Bible doesn’t say anything about women wearing pants!

 

Look I understand what you are getting at.  There are some preachers out there who ride the hobby horses...I get that.  But not everyone does.  This is a personal conviction that she has - fine.  I get it.  This is not what we are discussing though, now is it?  You continue to introduce different ideas that require more discussion.  You are putting too many issues into one basket, trying to find a "one size fits all" answer to it.  It is not that easy.  Women's dress, modesty, etc. is a far cry from music....so why introduce the subject? 

When it comes to a personal conviction about something, yes, this is the proper response. 

but that is not what we are discussing.  We are discussing BIBLE BASED convictions on CLEAR topics.

 Now you have a “CONVICTION” that secular music is wrong and sinful.  Fine.

 But have the good sense not to preach about it, because IT IS NOT IN THE BIBLE!

 

 Oh by the way, MUSIC has been around a long, long time!  And as we all know Satan used to be a kind of song leader, before he was kicked out of heaven.

 If music is such a powerful tool to turn people away from the Lord, why is there not even one example of Satan using it to do that, in the Bible?

 

1.  It is not a "personal preference" type of conviction.  It is a conviction based on much study, prayer, and Biblical meditation.

2.  It IS in the Bible

3.  I DID give you an example of Satan using music to turn people from the Lord - you just ignored it.  I will give it to you AGAIN - Daniel 3:1-7 - Nebuchadnezzar ordered everyone to bow down and worship his idol WHEN THEY STARTED PLAYING THE MUSIC.  Got it???

 

 I believe that my response to you about this list of Scriptures was they can only be applied to secular music, if it has already been established that all secular music is sinful.  Scripture does not establish that.

 

Circular reasoning....

You are saying that I cannot apply the aforementioned Scriptures to secular music until I first prove that secular music is evil. 

Uh, but, the Scriptures I gave you give you the WORKING PRINCIPLES TO COME TO THAT CONCLUSION.  

You want the blanket statement like this:

II Opinions 4:5 "Thou shalt not listen to any secular music because all secular music is evil, Thus saith the Lord..."

Well, I admit - that type of language is not in the Bible.  But just because that kind of statement is not in the Bible does not mean that the Lord has not spoken on the subject.  He has - definitively and clearly.  You just have to study the thing out. 

 

You have effectively ignored everything the Bible has to say on the subject of music because you became to preoccupied looking for the magic verse.

 

Look, I understand the problem you and so many other Christians are facing. 

When a preacher carries on about "dresses on women" and you find that the only NT teaching is "modesty," then you begin to suspect EVERYTHING on his list of "rules."

But just because they may have gone too far on ONE issue, does not mean that their position on EVERY issue is wrong.

 They recounted how years ago, they had asked their pastor about this issue and he was also unable to show them any Scripture on the subject.  So he gave him some books on the subject and asked him to read these books and pray about it; And after reading what “other men” had to say about the subject, he came to understand the evils of secular music.

 

 This is the WRONG WAY for any of us, to shape our beliefs!

 

I agree!  The problem is not that the Bible does not speak on the subject.  The problem is that (1) the pastor was too lazy to dig it out.  Secondly, while the Bible does give us clear guidelines on acceptable music, the Bible is not a textbook on music theory.  It is extremely helpful to READ AND STUDY the subject of music including works on the history of music, the development of music, music theory, and differences between the different genres of music.  How can anyone speak intelligently on a subject - either for or against - if they have not done their homework?   THis is part of the problem in our churches - the pastors are simply TOO LAZY to work this stuff out.

 

And brother, you are taking a very strong stand on this issue, but it sounds like to me that you have not done much studying on it either, and you have summarily DISMISSED everything the Bible has to say on the subject because you never found your magic verse.  You take that as permission to listen to anything you want to, regardless of the source, and in the face of a mountain of Scripture. 

 

 Steve, one can only assume that you ride the “hobby horse” of “the evils of secular music”, because of how strongly you have responded to my threads. 

 

I responded passionately to your threads because of the great dangers your philosophy brings to our churches. 

Rock music is evil, and it brings an evil spirit into the church.  If you say it is acceptable to listen to at HOME, it will only be a matter of time before it creeps into the church services in the form of CCM, and before you know it, there will be a rock band on stage, with long-haired sissies with their little sissy ear-rings, nose-rings, tattoos, and everything else.

A pastor is a shepherd, and yes he does protect his sheep...that's part of the job!

 

But just because I responded to your posts so strongly does not mean that I preach on the subject every week.  It means that I have as strong a passion AGAINST your position that you have FOR it.  You keep posting on the same issue, so maybe you are the one with the hobby-horse???

No, I don't think that.  I think you have a decided opinion on the subject, and you are trying to convince us that your position is best.

All I am doing is holding your position up to the Scripture, in light of my study on the subject, and showing that your position is off-base. 

I do believe strongly on this subject, but no more strongly on this subject than I do on any number of subjects.

 

 This is the danger of wasting one minute of our valuable pulpit time talking about the evils of TV or secular music.  What good does it do to get our people to toss out their TV’s and burn their secular music, when they are living like the devil in the rest of their life. 

 If we preach against lying, cheating and stealing and the hypocrisy of saying you’re a Christian and doing these things...Now that is preaching.

Maybe your position on music is dead wrong - did you ever think about that?

Maybe one of the reasons why they live like the devil the rest of their life is because they have allowed the devil so much influence in their lives. 

Matthew 12:34 tells us that what a man speaks comes out of his heart.  You have FAILED (miserably) to apply this teaching directly from Jesus Christ to secular rock music.  The stuff they sing about comes from their hearts, and it is evident from their lifestyles what their heart is like - it is wicked.  This includes ALL SECULAR ROCK BANDS. 

But you somehow think that this music has absolutely NO AFFECT on a person's mind or lifestyle????

Incredible!

 

I just finished a series on the 10 commandments - 1 commandment per week (yes, that means it took us 10 weeks to cover them all....)  So don't go accusing me of this stuff....and don't accuse others of it either.  Yes, some people ride their hobby horses, but I know that even those guys preach on these other areas of sin as well.  You just get so rabid about the areas in your life that keep getting hit that you fail to hear the rest of the message.

 

 

 

 I have seen so many of my Christian Brothers, who were caught up in the condemnation of superficial things like rock music or dancing or TV or women wearing pants....

 

What we see on the outside of a person is the result of what is going on in their heart.  Thus, your accusation of rock music, dancing, or TV being "superficial" is WAY OFF.  It reveals the inner condition of the heart.

 

Now, my belief is that the most important thing for a Christian to do is maintain their fellowship with Jesus Christ.  If they do this, all the outside stuff falls off. 

So I understand where you are coming from.  Too many preachers put too much emphasis on external things, which creates a level of self-righteousness in their churches because the focus in on the exterior, not on the inner condition of their heart.  In these cases, the terms "Pharisee" and "legalist" are accurate.   

The problem is that you are so rabid on your position that you have not really read or truly comprehended anything I have written.  I should have made it clear to you by now that I (for one) do not fall into that category, and neither do many others.  Just because they take a position against rock music does not make a person a Pharisee or a legalist.  This is the fallacy of your argument.  You have already determined that listening to secular music is acceptable because...well, because, after all YOU LISTEN TO IT.  So any argument made against it is AUTOMATICALLY Pharisaical and non-essential and superficial - NO MATTER HOW MUCH SCRIPTURE IS GIVEN TO PROVE THEIR CASE.

 

Well, brother - THAT approach is wrong.

 

 Steve, I don’t know the first thing about your ministry and I apologize for offending you.

 

Thank you....it would help if you would stop making such grand assumptions, and stop painting with such a broad brush...

 

 

But I don’t apologize, for taking a stand for preaching “sound Biblical Doctrine”; And casting aside superficial pet doctrines, that men have convinced us are sin.

 

Music is a Bible doctrine and it is hardly a "superficial" issue.  Music has a powerful influence on man, as the Bible demonstrates. 

So when I preach that listening to rock music is SIN, it is based upon Biblical study - regardless of your endless mantra that it "isn't in the Bible."  It IS, It IS important, it DOES affect your life, your manner of thinking, your world view, etc. 

 

I do my best to preach the "whole counsel of God"

Edited by Steve Schwenke

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In Heaven our life is going to revolve around our Father & Savior, should it not be the same on earth?

 

Mt 6:10 Thy kingdom come. Thy will be done in earth, as it is in heaven.
 
Lu 11:2 And he said unto them, When ye pray, say, Our Father which art in heaven, Hallowed be thy name. Thy kingdom come. Thy will be done, as in heaven, so in earth.
 
It seems not many of us are following the example set by the early church that Jesus founded. 
 
Ac 2:42 ¶ And they continued stedfastly in the apostles' doctrine and fellowship, and in breaking of bread, and in prayers.
 
It seem their lives shows a very good example of being transformed, not conformed to this secular world.
 
Ro 12:1 ¶ I beseech you therefore, brethren, by the mercies of God, that ye present your bodies a living sacrifice, holy, acceptable unto God, which is your reasonable service.
Ro 12:2 And be not conformed to this world: but be ye transformed by the renewing of your mind, that ye may prove what is that good, and acceptable, and perfect, will of God.

 

Oh, how many of us really wants God will to be done on earth as it is in Heaven?

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Brother, the context of my statements should have been clear to you.  I am not speaking of man-made convictions, but rather, BIBLE BASED convictions.  I believe and practice the Baptist principle that the Bible is the final authority in ALL MATTERS of faith (what I believe) and practice (what I do.)  And I don't believe in "proof-texting" my "convictions," but rather base my beliefs and subsequent practices on a THOROUGH study of Scripture.

It goes without saying, if you pay attention to the context of my statements. 

Look I understand what you are getting at.  There are some preachers out there who ride the hobby horses...I get that.  But not everyone does.  This is a personal conviction that she has - fine.  I get it.  This is not what we are discussing though, now is it?  You continue to introduce different ideas that require more discussion.  You are putting too many issues into one basket, trying to find a "one size fits all" answer to it.  It is not that easy.  Women's dress, modesty, etc. is a far cry from music....so why introduce the subject? 

When it comes to a personal conviction about something, yes, this is the proper response. 

but that is not what we are discussing.  We are discussing BIBLE BASED convictions on CLEAR topics.

1.  It is not a "personal preference" type of conviction.  It is a conviction based on much study, prayer, and Biblical meditation.

2.  It IS in the Bible

3.  I DID give you an example of Satan using music to turn people from the Lord - you just ignored it.  I will give it to you AGAIN - Daniel 3:1-7 - Nebuchadnezzar ordered everyone to bow down and worship his idol WHEN THEY STARTED PLAYING THE MUSIC.  Got it???

 

Circular reasoning....

You are saying that I cannot apply the aforementioned Scriptures to secular music until I first prove that secular music is evil. 

Uh, but, the Scriptures I gave you give you the WORKING PRINCIPLES TO COME TO THAT CONCLUSION.  

You want the blanket statement like this:

II Opinions 4:5 "Thou shalt not listen to any secular music because all secular music is evil, Thus saith the Lord..."

Well, I admit - that type of language is not in the Bible.  But just because that kind of statement is not in the Bible does not mean that the Lord has not spoken on the subject.  He has - definitively and clearly.  You just have to study the thing out. 

 

You have effectively ignored everything the Bible has to say on the subject of music because you became to preoccupied looking for the magic verse.

 

Look, I understand the problem you and so many other Christians are facing. 

When a preacher carries on about "dresses on women" and you find that the only NT teaching is "modesty," then you begin to suspect EVERYTHING on his list of "rules."

But just because they may have gone too far on ONE issue, does not mean that their position on EVERY issue is wrong.

I agree!  The problem is not that the Bible does not speak on the subject.  The problem is that (1) the pastor was too lazy to dig it out.  Secondly, while the Bible does give us clear guidelines on acceptable music, the Bible is not a textbook on music theory.  It is extremely helpful to READ AND STUDY the subject of music including works on the history of music, the development of music, music theory, and differences between the different genres of music.  How can anyone speak intelligently on a subject - either for or against - if they have not done their homework?   THis is part of the problem in our churches - the pastors are simply TOO LAZY to work this stuff out.

 

And brother, you are taking a very strong stand on this issue, but it sounds like to me that you have not done much studying on it either, and you have summarily DISMISSED everything the Bible has to say on the subject because you never found your magic verse.  You take that as permission to listen to anything you want to, regardless of the source, and in the face of a mountain of Scripture. 

 

I responded passionately to your threads because of the great dangers your philosophy brings to our churches. 

Rock music is evil, and it brings an evil spirit into the church.  If you say it is acceptable to listen to at HOME, it will only be a matter of time before it creeps into the church services in the form of CCM, and before you know it, there will be a rock band on stage, with long-haired sissies with their little sissy ear-rings, nose-rings, tattoos, and everything else.

A pastor is a shepherd, and yes he does protect his sheep...that's part of the job!

 

But just because I responded to your posts so strongly does not mean that I preach on the subject every week.  It means that I have as strong a passion AGAINST your position that you have FOR it.  You keep posting on the same issue, so maybe you are the one with the hobby-horse???

No, I don't think that.  I think you have a decided opinion on the subject, and you are trying to convince us that your position is best.

All I am doing is holding your position up to the Scripture, in light of my study on the subject, and showing that your position is off-base. 

I do believe strongly on this subject, but no more strongly on this subject than I do on any number of subjects.

 

Maybe your position on music is dead wrong - did you ever think about that?

Maybe one of the reasons why they live like the devil the rest of their life is because they have allowed the devil so much influence in their lives. 

Matthew 12:34 tells us that what a man speaks comes out of his heart.  You have FAILED (miserably) to apply this teaching directly from Jesus Christ to secular rock music.  The stuff they sing about comes from their hearts, and it is evident from their lifestyles what their heart is like - it is wicked.  This includes ALL SECULAR ROCK BANDS. 

But you somehow think that this music has absolutely NO AFFECT on a person's mind or lifestyle????

Incredible!

 

I just finished a series on the 10 commandments - 1 commandment per week (yes, that means it took us 10 weeks to cover them all....)  So don't go accusing me of this stuff....and don't accuse others of it either.  Yes, some people ride their hobby horses, but I know that even those guys preach on these other areas of sin as well.  You just get so rabid about the areas in your life that keep getting hit that you fail to hear the rest of the message.

 

 

 

What we see on the outside of a person is the result of what is going on in their heart.  Thus, your accusation of rock music, dancing, or TV being "superficial" is WAY OFF.  It reveals the inner condition of the heart.

 

Now, my belief is that the most important thing for a Christian to do is maintain their fellowship with Jesus Christ.  If they do this, all the outside stuff falls off. 

So I understand where you are coming from.  Too many preachers put too much emphasis on external things, which creates a level of self-righteousness in their churches because the focus in on the exterior, not on the inner condition of their heart.  In these cases, the terms "Pharisee" and "legalist" are accurate.   

The problem is that you are so rabid on your position that you have not really read or truly comprehended anything I have written.  I should have made it clear to you by now that I (for one) do not fall into that category, and neither do many others.  Just because they take a position against rock music does not make a person a Pharisee or a legalist.  This is the fallacy of your argument.  You have already determined that listening to secular music is acceptable because...well, because, after all YOU LISTEN TO IT.  So any argument made against it is AUTOMATICALLY Pharisaical and non-essential and superficial - NO MATTER HOW MUCH SCRIPTURE IS GIVEN TO PROVE THEIR CASE.

 

Well, brother - THAT approach is wrong.

 

Thank you....it would help if you would stop making such grand assumptions, and stop painting with such a broad brush...

 

 

Music is a Bible doctrine and it is hardly a "superficial" issue.  Music has a powerful influence on man, as the Bible demonstrates. 

So when I preach that listening to rock music is SIN, it is based upon Biblical study - regardless of your endless mantra that it "isn't in the Bible."  It IS, It IS important, it DOES affect your life, your manner of thinking, your world view, etc. 

 

I do my best to preach the "whole counsel of God"

 

Thank you Steve.

That was a very respectful and informative response and it has given me something to think and pray about.

Just the other day, my wife and I were talking about the error that so many good preachers have fallen into, by “going to seed” on things.  I have a personal friend who has gone to seed on the subject of homosexuality; And I know of another pastor, who has gone to seed on the subject of our nations support of Israel, etc.  The list seems to go one and one.

As my wife and I talked and also later, I started wondering what area I may have gone to seed in. This isn’t new for me, I regularly ask the Lord to reveal any area in my file, that is out of balance.

Then you wrote.......
“Too many preachers put too much emphasis on external things, which creates a level of self-righteousness in their churches because the focus in on the exterior, not on the inner condition of their heart.  In these cases, the terms "Pharisee" and "legalist" are accurate.   
The problem is that you are so rabid on your position that you have not really read or truly comprehended anything I have written.”


Having gone “rabid” on something, is having “gone to seed” on it.
For sure, I do see a big problem with preachers teaching people to be so careful to avoid the “ways of the world”, that they forget to teach them to remember their own wicked hearts, etc.

I have a lot to learn(that is why I come here).
------------------------
Today I was thinking about why the Lord would make some Christians, kind of hyper sensitive to something, while at the same time, causing other Christians to not see any harm in it.

My conclusion was, that maybe it’s because when it comes to “secular music”, it’s no big deal with me(I could take it or leave it).  But someone else, may have a real problem with it(feeling that it’s something that they need), etc.
------------------------
Anyway, this has been a good discussion for me!

Thanks again Steve
 

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Hello Jerry Numbers

You concluded your response with this question.....
“Oh, how many of us really wants God will to be done on earth as it is in Heaven?”

Well I think anyone who’s heart is right with God, want’s His will to be done.
But what these threads have been about is another question.....

What is, “God’s Will”?
------------------------
As we have seen, I think God’s will is one thing, while Steve thinks it is something else, while you may think it’s something else.

This is why I seem to make such a big deal out of always going back to Scripture for the answer to this question!

I KNOW(and admit), that my view of God’s will is not perfect, because my mind has been effected by sin’s contamination.  None of us can trust ourselves 100%, because of the fact that we live in a Christ rejecting world every day.

Paul said something about this.....
1 Corinthians 5:9-10
V.9 ¶ I wrote unto you in an epistle not to company with fornicators:
V.10 Yet not altogether with the fornicators of this world, or with the covetous, or extortioners, or with idolaters; for then must ye needs go out of the world.


According to the Bible, we would have to get “out of this world”, before we will be able to see things absolutely clear.

This is why I am so dependant upon God’s Word and am always asking Steve and others to “show me the Scripture” that supports their views.

As I have said, I have NEVER(from the pulpit), said one word about secular music being okey!  So also have I NEVER preached one word against it!
(That may come in the distant future, but now I have bigger fish to fry!)

I need to make sure, that I am not going overboard, in my criticism of other pastors, who do preach against it.  God calls different men to do different things; He may indeed have called some to preach against rock music and although He may never use me to do so, maybe I should have a more charitable view of others who do.

As for conforming to this world(as you talked about it in your response), praise the Lord, I am daily staying alert, to this danger and avoiding it as much as I can.
 

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...when it comes to “secular music”, it’s no big deal with me(I could take it or leave it).  

 

It is a BIG DEAL and affects you in ways that you've yet to learn.  Rebellion is at the center of all un Godly secular music.

 

Have you learned yet the biblical order of music with regards to rhythm, melody and harmony?  How does it compare with the world's music?  Please read and study these things.   :icon_pray:   

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It is a BIG DEAL and affects you in ways that you've yet to learn.  Rebellion is at the center of all un Godly secular music.

 

Have you learned yet the biblical order of music with regards to rhythm, melody and harmony?  How does it compare with the world's music?  Please read and study these things.   :icon_pray:   

Could you post the verses explaining this?

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Hello Jerry Numbers

You concluded your response with this question.....
“Oh, how many of us really wants God will to be done on earth as it is in Heaven?”

Well I think anyone who’s heart is right with God, want’s His will to be done.
But what these threads have been about is another question.....

What is, “God’s Will”?
------------------------
As we have seen, I think God’s will is one thing, while Steve thinks it is something else, while you may think it’s something else.

This is why I seem to make such a big deal out of always going back to Scripture for the answer to this question!

I KNOW(and admit), that my view of God’s will is not perfect, because my mind has been effected by sin’s contamination.  None of us can trust ourselves 100%, because of the fact that we live in a Christ rejecting world every day.

Paul said something about this.....
1 Corinthians 5:9-10
V.9 ¶ I wrote unto you in an epistle not to company with fornicators:
V.10 Yet not altogether with the fornicators of this world, or with the covetous, or extortioners, or with idolaters; for then must ye needs go out of the world.


According to the Bible, we would have to get “out of this world”, before we will be able to see things absolutely clear.

This is why I am so dependant upon God’s Word and am always asking Steve and others to “show me the Scripture” that supports their views.

As I have said, I have NEVER(from the pulpit), said one word about secular music being okey!  So also have I NEVER preached one word against it!
(That may come in the distant future, but now I have bigger fish to fry!)

I need to make sure, that I am not going overboard, in my criticism of other pastors, who do preach against it.  God calls different men to do different things; He may indeed have called some to preach against rock music and although He may never use me to do so, maybe I should have a more charitable view of others who do.

As for conforming to this world(as you talked about it in your response), praise the Lord, I am daily staying alert, to this danger and avoiding it as much as I can.
 

 

No, the post I made is not changing topics. If you want God's will to be done on this earth them your life will revolve around Jesus, & there will be no space in your life for secular stuff, like secular music & so on. 

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