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Donald

Should I Be A Channel?

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Hello

I do, much appreciate this discussion.

Yes, my pastor does make a point of saying that we won’t make God mad at us if we don’t tithe, but only that we are hurting ourselves.  This is how I have also looked at it over the years. 

I just(as a pastor), NEVER made “giving”, such a big deal, as he does.
------------------------
Standing Firm In Christ; Your opposition to Steve should have ended, when he wrote....
“We agree that there is no direct NT statement that demands a tithe.
We disagree on the practical application of the general principle of giving, where it starts, how it operates, and the example given to us in the OT.”


Are you totally against anyone ever giving money to a Church?

Generally I see or Lord as teaching the principle in the Gospels, of “live and let live”.
Therefore do you see Steve’s view as hurtful to Christians, in any way?
 

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Hello

I do, much appreciate this discussion.

Yes, my pastor does make a point of saying that we won’t make God mad at us if we don’t tithe, but only that we are hurting ourselves.  This is how I have also looked at it over the years. 

I just(as a pastor), NEVER made “giving”, such a big deal, as he does.
------------------------
Standing Firm In Christ; Your opposition to Steve should have ended, when he wrote....
“We agree that there is no direct NT statement that demands a tithe.
We disagree on the practical application of the general principle of giving, where it starts, how it operates, and the example given to us in the OT.”


Are you totally against anyone ever giving money to a Church?

Generally I see or Lord as teaching the principle in the Gospels, of “live and let live”.
Therefore do you see Steve’s view as hurtful to Christians, in any way?
 

Donald, I am not against giving to a Church one is a member of.  There are bills that need to be met.

What I am against is pastors that lie to their flocks, telling them that God requires the monetary tithe.  That instruction is not taught in Scripture anywhere.  It is the invention of man.

We are told to Preach the Word.  When we interject something into that Word that Scripture never instructs, we cease preaching the Word.

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SFIC seems to have a problem with things unmentioned in the Bible, rather, I suppose his problem is more with the things that are written.  Once you reject truth, the lie seems accurate.

 

Here is something to dwell on:(don't bother responding until you read it thru entirely.  Too many accusations and errors are supposed by a scanning through a post. Can you read it impartially?  It is long, and thorough.

 

 

The Tithe
(13 references in the Bible)

Gen 14:18  And Melchizedek king of Salem brought forth bread and wine: and he was the priest of the most high God.
Gen 14:19  And he blessed him, and said, Blessed be Abram of the most high God, possessor of heaven and earth:
Gen 14:20  And blessed be the most high God, which hath delivered thine enemies into thy hand. And he gave him tithes of all.

    I suppose, when it comes to discussing the tithe, that we must start at the beginning.  In Gen 14, we see two things that should be of interest to us:

1.  That Melchizedek initiated the “bread and wine” of communion in honor of Abraham.
2. That Abraham gave a tithe of all that he had taken, lest some claim to have favored Abraham, and made him rich through the tithe.  

    The “tithe” in Gen. 14 was given in response to the communion of victory that Melchizedek initiated.  It was also in response to the blessing that Melchizedek bestowed upon him.  The picture here is that the Lord blesses us, and we give to him that which we know He has given to us!  It seems, to the human mind, a bit redundant to give from what He gives us, but the beauty of the whole scene is the communion that we have with Christ.  The Lord shows, in many ways, that a little bit can do a lot when it is given with a pure heart.  So, here one might see the establishment of the tithe, and the “why” behind it.  Everything the Lord does has reason, and that includes the tithe.
    Sometimes the reason is for teaching; sometimes it is for celebration (as here); and sometimes it for reasons perhaps unknown to us, but not without merit.  The tithe was for Israel, God’s chosen people.  It was an important part of their worship, showing that God is greater than man, and is worthy of all our attentions.  This is the first reference to the tithe in the Bible.

    The next reference is in Leviticus 27:30:

Lev 27:30  And all the tithe of the land, whether of the seed of the land, or of the fruit of the tree, is the LORD'S: it is holy unto the LORD.     

    Here we find that God has sanctified the tithe, and “It is holy”.  Abraham seems to have impressed God greatly with the tithe, and the Lord adapted it into His law; it remains a tribute to the righteousness of God, and the subjection of man to His will.  Verse 32 carries it a little further:

Lev 27:32  And concerning the tithe of the herd, or of the flock, even of whatsoever passeth under the rod, the tenth shall be holy unto the LORD.

    The tithe covered everything that is important to man, the fruit of the land, and the wealth of the livestock.  It becomes a sacrifice.
Mans sustenance , all that he has, (Gen. 14:20) was what the Lord has allowed him, and the tithe the Lord kept for Himself.  Some refute the tithe because our God owns the cattle on a thousand hills, and He has no need of a tithe, but in so doing, they question the veracity of the Lord, and His Word, and dishonor Him by holding back that which is holy unto Him.  

    In Numbers 18:26 we have another reference to the tithe:

“Thus speak unto the Levites, and say unto them, When ye take of the children of Israel the tithes which I have given you from them for your inheritance, then ye shall offer up an heave offering of it for the LORD, even a tenth part of the tithe.”

    First, we have here an explanation of what the tithe was for.  God had given it to the Levites instead of an inheritance in Israel.   He demanded a tithe from the people, and passed it on to the Levites, much of what we do today in the church.   Remember the Old Testament was a shadow of things to come, it was a picture of God dealing with His people, and today, if we are born from above, we are His people.  In Numbers 18:23, we have the duty of the Levites, and the expression that they shall have no inheritance among the children of Israel.  Several verses in that text reiterate the purpose of the tithe.


    Here is a reference that deserves consideration in Deut. 12:11 :

 Then there shall be a place which the LORD your God shall choose to cause his name to dwell there; thither shall ye bring all that I command you; your burnt offerings, and your sacrifices, your tithes, and the heave offering of your hand, and all your choice vows which ye vow unto the LORD:

    Doesn’t this sound as if it could also refer to the church?  Is not the church a “place which the LORD your God shall choose to cause His name to dwell there”?  He is providing a place for us today also called “the church“ and is specific in what we are to bring there.  Not that is not “smoking gun” proof, I realize, but let us continue our study:

Deuteronomy 14:22:
“And thou shalt eat before the LORD thy God, in the place which he shall choose to place his name there, the tithe of thy corn, of thy wine, and of thine oil, and the firstlings of thy herds and of thy flocks; that thou mayest learn to fear the LORD thy God always.”

    An interesting verse indeed; here, the Lord is again very specific as to wht the tithe is, and more so He offers the real and best reason behind the tithe--“That thou mayest learn to fear the LORD thy God always” (Note the word “always”)  The tithe is to glorify the Lord always.  
    “Always” means forever, every generation, till the end of time; it was given to the Jew, because the Gentiles were heathen and had no part in the things of God, but it was for all of God’s children everywhere, and in every age.   If this were not true, we make God a liar in saying that it is “forever”, do we not?  We must all ask ourselves why we don’t want to tithe, or rather why we don’t believe the tithe is God’s forever.  Giving back 10% is not easy for any of us, but the investment is well worth the sacrifice.  Jn the text of Deut. 14, we see more about the blessing of the tithe (v. 29), and verse 28 speaks of a special tithe of the land to be brought every third year.  If the tithe is too much to be easily transported, the Levites were to exchange it for money, but money was only conditional concerning the tithe.  Most of the “average” people were pour, and lived off the land and the livestock that the Lord had supplied them, so money was not as prominent in their societies as it is in our culture today, but a tithe is still a tithe.  


In 2 Chronicles 31:5 we read as follows:

 “And as soon as the commandment came abroad, the children of Israel brought in abundance the firstfruits of corn, wine, and oil, and honey, and of all the increase of the field; and the tithe of all things brought they in abundantly.”

    The command here spoken of referred to the portion of the tithe that was to be given to the priests and Levites.  The abundance of the peoples first-fruits was given insomuch as they had far more than was needed.  God had blessed them abundantly, and they in turn were to be a blessing to the priests and Levites so that they might be encouraged in the law of the Lord. “Moreover he commanded the people that dwelt in Jerusalem to give the portion of the priests and the Levites, that they might be encouraged in the law of the LORD” (v.  4).  So, the tithe was also given for encouraging the full time workers of the Lord.  

Nehemiah dealt with the tithe also:

Neh 10:35  And to bring the firstfruits of our ground, and the firstfruits of all fruit of all trees, year by year, unto the house of the LORD:
Neh 10:36  Also the firstborn of our sons, and of our cattle, as it is written in the law, and the firstlings of our herds and of our flocks, to bring to the house of our God, unto the priests that minister in the house of our God:
Neh 10:37  And that we should bring the firstfruits of our dough, and our offerings, and the fruit of all manner of trees, of wine and of oil, unto the priests, to the chambers of the house of our God; and the tithes of our ground unto the Levites, that the same Levites might have the tithes in all the cities of our tillage.
Neh 10:38  And the priest the son of Aaron shall be with the Levites, when the Levites take tithes: and the Levites shall bring up the tithe of the tithes unto the house of our God, to the chambers, into the treasure house.

    The Levites were not exempt from tithing, they were to tithe from the tithe they received from the people of God.  The church follows this same pattern today, that the tithe would not be ignored, but remain in perpetuity as the Lord commanded Israel.   The dispensationalists of today have a problem with this, and separate the nation of Israel from the children of God today, but we are all spiritual Jews in the eyes of the Lord (read Galations 3).  The Levites did not tithe to themselves, but to the Lord that His work might continue without interruption.


New Testament Tithing
    As already mentioned several times, the tithe was perpetual, an everlasting honor, if you will, to the Lord as well as a token of thanksgiving and an encouragement to those who live off the tithes and offerings of the congregations.  They continue to supply the needs that otherwise would overwhelm the church, and the gates of hell then could prevail against it.  Thirteen times in the Old Testament we have seen the tithe mentioned, and only two mentions in the Gospels, but they are not without significance until you throw out the instruction and principle of the Old Testament, which is what the dispensationalist seems to want to do.  

In Matt. 23:23 we have one of two references to tithing in the New Testament.
Here and Luke 11:42 say virtually the same thing:

Mat 23:23  “Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye pay tithe of mint and anise and cummin, and have omitted the weightier matters of the law, judgment, mercy, and faith: these ought ye to have done, and not to leave the other undone.”

Luk 11:42  “But woe unto you, Pharisees! for ye tithe mint and rue and all manner of herbs, and pass over judgment and the love of God: these ought ye to have done, and not to leave the other undone.”

    The last line says it all, “…And not left the other undone.”  Our Lord is admonishing them to keep on tithing of the things mentioned, and not to leave them undone.  The Pharisee’s still paid tithes, and they were not rebuked for doing so, the fact is, they were encouraged to keep doing it!   I know that to some, the New Testament grace has not yet been ushered in, but again, the dispensationalist must interpret this in a way to make it fit because many do not want to tithe!  
    The lack of any mention other than this is not a valid argument.  Since the church is different than the tabernacle, and functions differently in some areas, the lack of the word “tithe” becomes questionable to many.  In 1 Cor. 8 we find some interesting evidences of giving by percentage.

2Co 8:13  For I mean not that other men be eased, and ye burdened:
2Co 8:14  But by an equality, that now at this time your abundance may be a supply for their want, that their abundance also may be a supply for your want: that there may be equality:

So that one brother is not overburdened, the Lord does not ask them to give excessively, but equally.  The only way they can give equally is to give a percentage.  Ten percent is ten percent for everyone, and is no more of a burden for a rich man than for a poorer man.  Verse 15, the next verse, shows us that the Old testament principles are applicable in the New Testament too.  Here is what v. 15 says:

2Co 8:15  As it is written, He that had gathered much had nothing over; and he that had gathered little had no lack.

    You may recall that this statement was made concerning the Israelites and the gathering of manna, as the Lord provided.  (Exodus 16, read entire text)   Note that the last verse qualifies the matter with “an omer is the tenth part of an ephah” (That which they used to dole it out). The tenth part, this is the meaning of “tithe” it means “tenth”.  They measured out a tenth of an ephah for each man, and double on the day before the Sabbath. If any of us would have applied this verse the way that Paul did, we would hear from a dozen people that we took it out of context!   Again, let me say, the Old testament supports the New.  
    Though the eighth chapter of 2 Corinthians is speaking of charitable giving and not tithing specifically, we can glean some information from these instances.  They gave out of love; love should be the reason we give also.  They gave in faith; faith must apply to tithing as well.  If we cannot trust God to keep His promises to us, we are of all men most miserable.  We should see the ned of the church, and understand that it takes money to make things happen as they should, and out of love for the work, we ought to tithe.   I believe that those who do not tithe are too self-centered to exercise faith in giving, and do not fully trust their Lord as they might think they do.  

    Most of us know that you will not find a “chapter and verse” for New Testament tithing, but there are very strong implications, for instance:

Paul aid he could take pay as a full time worker, but chose not to (1 Cor. 9:6).

1Co 9:9  For it is written in the law of Moses, Thou shalt not muzzle the mouth of the ox that treadeth out the corn. Doth God take care for oxen?

I find it strange that Paul wouid apply this Old testament verse to New Testament support, don’t you?

We finish this passage with the following:

1Co 9:10  Or saith he it altogether for our sakes? For our sakes, no doubt, this is written: that he that ploweth should plow in hope; and that he that thresheth in hope should be partaker of his hope.
1Co 9:11  If we have sown unto you spiritual things, is it a great thing if we shall reap your carnal things?
1Co 9:12  If others be partakers of this power over you, are not we rather? Nevertheless we have not used this power; but suffer all things, lest we should hinder the gospel of Christ.
1Co 9:13  Do ye not know that they which minister about holy things live of the things of the temple? and they which wait at the altar are partakers with the altar?
1Co 9:14  Even so hath the Lord ordained that they which preach the gospel should live of the gospel.
1Co 9:15  But I have used none of these things: neither have I written these things, that it should be so done unto me: for it were better for me to die, than that any man should make my glorying void.


    If the church was not expected to tithe, Paul’s words would be meaningless.  This idea of giving according to your own whim would not work because most of us do not easily part with our “hard earned” money.  Most non-tithers do not give enough to support the ministry in any fashion.  His heart is not on tithing:

Psa. 23:7  For as he thinketh in his heart, so is he: Eat and drink, saith he to thee; but his heart is not with thee.

    The non-tither is doing things his way, and not God’s way:

Pro 14:12  There is a way which seemeth right unto a man, but the end thereof are the ways of death.

    Though the verses immediately above have little, or nothing to do with tithing, they do show human nature, which often dictates what we want, and not necessarily what we should do.  I think you get my point.


Take a look at this verse:

2Co 8:12  For if there be first a willing mind, it is accepted according to that a man hath, and not according to that he hath not.

    Our giving is not according to whether we have the money or not, but to equal giving, which, as stated before, demands a percentage giving.  Ten percent it what the lord has commanded in the past, and it is carried over into the church age, or present. (reference given earlier)

    The command and promise of Luke 6:38 still applies today:

Luk 6:38  Give, and it shall be given unto you; good measure, pressed down, and shaken together, and running over, shall men give into your bosom. For with the same measure that ye mete withal it shall be measured to you again.
What would a discourse on tithing be without quoting that time-tested verse, MalachI 3:10?

 “Bring ye all the tithes into the storehouse, that there may be meat in mine house, and prove me now herewith, saith the LORD of hosts, if I will not open you the windows of heaven, and pour you out a blessing, that there shall not be room enough to receive it.”

    The New Testament reference in 2 Corinthians 9, though it has more to do with charitable giving, proves the accuracy of this verse.   

2Co 9:6  But this I say, He which soweth sparingly shall reap also sparingly; and he which soweth bountifully shall reap also bountifully.
2Co 9:7  Every man according as he purposeth in his heart, so let him give; not grudgingly, or of necessity: for God loveth a cheerful giver.
2Co 9:8  And God is able to make all grace abound toward you; that ye, always having all sufficiency in all things, may abound to every good work:

    Some take issue with the phrase “Every man according as he purposeth in his heart. So let him give”, they allow this to be the standard for giving of tithes, and any other means of giving.   Don’t we know that the “heart is deceitful above all things, and desperately wicked” (Jer. 17:9) and none can really know how much?   The purpose if their heart in this verse means having the right attitude for giving, as the last part of the verse clarifies.  We are to give out of a good motive, a motive of love, and not necessarily out of command or any other rule or emotion.  It does not mean let him give whatever he wants to give for that week or month, else he would always find excuse not to tithe.  We need to quit looking for “loopholes” in the law, and in the commands of God; a loophole is merely unbelief in disguise, and affords many excuses to go contrary to the Lord’s will and the Word of God.  
 

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Irishman, good post.

As an aside, not all dispensationalists go the same extremes as others.  I am a dispensationalist, but I recognize the points you make as valid, and teach them myself.  We do ourselves great disservice by dismissing the OT.  I believe Romans 15:4 is the operative verse in this case.  The OT has many great examples and admonitions that are still relevant today.  What we all recognize (I hope) is the futility of keeping the Law in light of Christ's atonement for us.   That does not mean we completely ignore everything in the Law - murder is still murder, sodomy is still sodomy, etc. 

 

Anyway, thanks for the input....

 

:11backtotopic:

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Irishman,

While I am sure you mean well, your long dissertation is really meaningless given the fact that the New Testament reveals that the ordinances were abolished by Jesus Christ Himself.  Hebrews says the commandment going before would be disannulled. 

What commandment?  The commandment to tithe.

Many may fall for your plea for tithes to continue, but the Word of God clearly says they are cancelled.  I'll stick with the Word of God.

As to Abram's tithe, God did not give him those spoils, He gave him the battle.  Abram promised God he would not keep any of the spoils for his own lest he give occasion for Bera to say he had made Abram rich.

If those spoils that Abram gave to Melchizedek were his due to winning the battle, then Bera's property had made Abram that much richer than he was prior to going on his rescue mission and defeating those wicked kings.

Yet, Bera never said anything (nor did Abram) about Abram being ten percent richer through those spoils. 

The Bible says Abram tithe spoils.  Can you provide Scripture that says he tithed any of his own assets?  I already know the answer to that.

And the tithes under the Mosaic Law?  Not the same as Abram's tithe.  Why not?

The fact is, Numbers 31 reveals that that which God required of the spoils of war was far, far less than a tithe.  Yet a tithe of war spoils was what was given to Melchizedek.

The Law tithe was not monetary, nor was it required of everybody.  Only of farmers and herders... even though money was quite available.  The farmers had money with which they could buy back the tithe if they so chose.  They could sell the Feast tithe if they needed to, but had to buy it back once they arrived in Jerusalem.

Sorry you don't see it, but the tithe is not for New Testament Christians.  To say it is is to tempt God, who tells us the ordinances were abolished.

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I haven't tithed in over 20 years.

Thus far, all of my prayers have been answered with "yes," "no," or "wait."

So many want to ascribe blessings that they receive from time to time as a result of tithing.  Yet, in light of the fact that God's Word says the tithing command has been disannulled (cancelled) I cannot see why God would bless someone for observing something that His Son abolished.

The primary definition for the word "abolished" in Ephesians 2:15 is "to render entirely idle; useless"  Christ Jesus has made the commandment to tithe useless.  It is ineffective, in other words. 

We must remember that God's sun shines upon all and he maketh His rain to fall on the just as well as the unjust.  Blessings received may be for some other reason; an act of kindness, for instance.

To argue that tithing is still binding today is to argue against the written Word of God.

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While I am sure you mean well, your long dissertation is really meaningless given the fact that the New Testament reveals that the ordinances were abolished by Jesus Christ Himself.  Hebrews says the commandment going before would be disannulled. 

 

I appreciate Irishman's explanation and argument for his position, as it closely mirror the one I gave. However, this is why I didn't want to bother posting it again. You completely missed, or ignored, the point that it is based on principle and not ordinance. I'm not sure how many other ways to say that yes, we agree the Law and its ordinances are abolished; however, we believe that the principles behind the Law are still valuable in knowing and following God.

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What is the principle? Abram is said only to have tithed once, and that of property that belonged to someone else.

Where is the principle there?

And under the Law, only farmers and herders were required to tithe. People of other occupations did not tithe. What is the principle there? I don't see any principle whatsoever.

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Since Abram's tithe was only of the spoils of war according to the Word of God, what is the principle?  Only those who win a war are required to tithe?

Since only farmers and herders were required to tithe under the Law and no one else, what is the principle?  That only farmers and herders are required to tithe?

We are all made priests in the New Covenant.  Priests didn't tithe under the Law.  Nor were they said to have tithed prior to the Law.  I guess the principle is since we are all priests, we don't have to tithe.

Hey, I like this principle game... works quite well.

The fact is, these so-called "principles" of yours just do not pan out when Scripture is compared with Scripture.

Why didn't the Apostle's teach your so-called "principles"?  Not even in the pastoral epistles.
 

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Nevermind. If you can't see the explanation of principle in Irishman's exhaustive post then there's nothing else I can say to turn the light on for you.

 

As a side note, if you dismiss or explain away everything that occurs only one time in Scripture you're not going to have much of a Bible left to work with.

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Yes, my voice is there. But you are overlooking one important fact...

Those discussions are closed. If Donald wants to dialog, he has not the opportunity.

Here, he can. Don't ruin it.

 

 

But the thread had nothing to do with tithing until you inserted your hobby horse soap box. You already ruined the thread and forced yet another thread into your anti tithe mantra, that seems to be the case with you in almost every thread your post on. I for one am just plain tired of hearing about your obsession. It is clear to me and to many others on this site that your heart is obviously hard against giving. You slander, you cavil, you mis quote, you falsely accuse just about any one who even mentions any standard of giving.

I read your blog the other day. You sir are seriously obsessed with money in general which simply tells me you are in fact consumed with greed. Out of the mouth comes the issues of your life. Money becomes a stumbling block for you, you constantly stalk this site for any whisper of giving and then you pounce upon any mention and berate any one who dares to suggest that tithing is a good place to start with regular giving.

 

If I do tithe, it is in no way an OT law tithe. It could´t be, we are not obligated to any OT tithe. Tithe is simply 10% of what I have. A tithe is a simple mathematical equation to help one understand a percentage point of a given quantity. You have yet to produce one shred of evidence that any one on this site ever posted that tithing is an obligation for any Christian.

 

I personally an just plain sick and tired of you and your endless tirades. Give it a rest. Trust God to lead a soul here without your 2 cents worth. You demonstrate very little grace, very little kindness and very little faith in God to lead His people (NOT YOURS!) in what He would have them do.

 

I have said it before and i will say it again. Your spirit is miserly, your attitude is spiteful and you come across as an angry man very often. Whatever Bible knowledge you may posses, I wouldn´t give you the time of day to listen to it. There is no meekness in your tirades and endless belittling rem,arks.

 

If I was the mod here, I´d simply ban you. Not because I cant handle the truth, (You have never heard me tell any one to tithe, and you never will) but simply due to your contentious spirit and quarrelsome nature. You are a lousy example of godliness, sir, and that is said with much charity.

 

calvary

 

I have stated several times before, I could care a whit what you do or don´t do with your goods.

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I have misquoted no one.  Nor have I falsely accused anyone.

And now, in order to justify putting yourself under the Law, you falsely accuse me.

Figures.

 

You couldn´t find a quote of mine anywhere that I tithe or do not. Again you falsely accuse me of putting myself under the law. You are a liar. You just attributed to me a statement that is patently false.

Edited by Calvary

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But the thread had nothing to do with tithing until you inserted your hobby horse soap box. You already ruined the thread and forced yet another thread into your anti tithe mantra, that seems to be the case with you in almost every thread your post on. I for one am just plain tired of hearing about your obsession. It is clear to me and to many others on this site that your heart is obviously hard against giving. You slander, you cavil, you mis quote, you falsely accuse just about any one who even mentions any standard of giving.

I read your blog the other day. You sir are seriously obsessed with money in general which simply tells me you are in fact consumed with greed. Out of the mouth comes the issues of your life. Money becomes a stumbling block for you, you constantly stalk this site for any whisper of giving and then you pounce upon any mention and berate any one who dares to suggest that tithing is a good place to start with regular giving.

 

If I do tithe, it is in no way an OT law tithe. It could´t be, we are not obligated to any OT tithe. Tithe is simply 10% of what I have. A tithe is a simple mathematical equation to help one understand a percentage point of a given quantity. You have yet to produce one shred of evidence that any one on this site ever posted that tithing is an obligation for any Christian.

 

I personally an just plain sick and tired of you and your endless tirades. Give it a rest. Trust God to lead a soul here without your 2 cents worth. You demonstrate very little grace, very little kindness and very little faith in God to lead His people (NOT YOURS!) in what He would have them do.

 

I have said it before and i will say it again. Your spirit is miserly, your attitude is spiteful and you come across as an angry man very often. Whatever Bible knowledge you may posses, I wouldn´t give you the time of day to listen to it. There is no meekness in your tirades and endless belittling rem,arks.

 

If I was the mod here, I´d simply ban you. Not because I cant handle the truth, (You have never heard me tell any one to tithe, and you never will) but simply due to your contentious spirit and quarrelsome nature. You are a lousy example of godliness, sir, and that is said with much charity.

 

calvary

 

I have stated several times before, I could care a whit what you do or don´t do with your goods.

After you have walked a mile or two in our shoes, then feel free to come back here and judge our "journey"...then you can tell us how "greedy" and "obsessed with money" we really are.  I sure do hope you have a liking for Ramen noodles because that is what you will be eating for a month....plus alot of "crow".

Edited by LindaR

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You don't have to say, "I tithe" verbatim.  If you didn't believe in the monetary tithe, you wouldn't be attacking my character as you do. 

It has been my experience with everyone I have ever conversed with concerning the unscriptural monetary tithe doctrine that, if they believed in it, they attacked me and accused me of being greedy and and all kinds of lies.

As I said, you don't have to say it verbatim.  Your posts reveal your stance.

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As my wife said, our meal is Ramen noodles.  We live on a scant disability check each and that goes to bills; i.e. rent, car payment, gas and utilities.

We do not live extravagantly, have not bought any new clothes in several years, nor do we have expensive clothes or expensive furniture.  We barely get by each month.

If you're tired of my reading my posts about tithes, the simple solution would be to just not read my posts.  I am sure there is an ignore feature provided that you could use.  Problem solved.

 

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The fact is, everyone who knows us personally knows I am not greedy, nor is my wife.

We have worked on people's PC's at no charge. Printed out page after page of materials for people at no charge, and done many things for others at no charge.

My articles about the tithe are not because of greed at all.  They are because of dishonest pastors extorting money from unlearned Church members.

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Sounds like Calvary hit a nerve!

 

By the way, Levites tithed too, or don't they count?  As for "ordinances", they are a synonym for "Law" (Used many times in Psa. 119) and verse 7 (Malachi) is true, they have not kept Gods laws, even in failing to tithe.

 

By the way what does "forever" mean?  In my post, i believe I said at least a few times that the tithe was a perpetual command, therefore it was not done away with.

 

I too became weary with your constant harping about not tithing, that is what prompted my post.  If you do not want to tithe, then don't, but please don't spread your poison around.

 

 

To get back on subject, 2 Cor 9 gives us a picture of "channeling" funds to others in need.

Edited by irishman

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Irishman,

Let's suppose that the tithes were perpetual.  (I do not see Scripture saying they are, but just suppose)

You still run into a huge problem.  The tithes that you say are "forever" were not tithes of money... they were tithes of crops and livestock, oil,  wine, and flour.

So where do you get the authority to change these tithes that you say are "forever" from crops, livestock, oil, wine and flour to money?  Scripture and verse please?

It saddens me that you think the Word of God is poison.

Edited by Standing Firm In Christ

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Well, we know that the OT tithe, even though agricultural, had monetary value.  We know this because of the allowance the Law makes to change the tithe into money, then buy back the produce at the Temple.  So it is not like they just brought 1/10th of their grain down to the Levitical city or the Temple, it was a valued commodity that had monetary value. 

Yes, we know and understand that the Lord did not tell the bankers to "tithe" and the tithe as described in the Law was from the fields or cattle.  We got that.  But the principle of it is that it was a valuable commodity.  It had real monetary value assigned to it.  It was a sacrifice for those agricultural people to give a tithe.  I believe the Lord did not mention the business men in the Law because the Lord's intentions for Israel was to be a rural society, and minimize the power of corrupt people in the cities.  I believe the Lord desired an agriculturally based economy for the nation of Israel, thus the instructions on the tithe.  I don't think for one minute that the Lord exempted the city dwellers from the tithe, I just think that some things go without saying.  (City dwellers deal in cold, hard currency.)  If God demanded a tithe from the farmers and ranchers, then why would God NOT require a tithe from the business men and bankers?   It doesn't make sense (cents? :icon_redface: ).  It just goes without saying. 

And as Irishman pointed out, the NT is built upon the foundation of the apostles and PROPHETS (i.e. the OT).  Maybe the Lord did not put this issue in the NT because He figured we would be smart enough to pick up on the idea that we should give generously and sacrificially to the Lord's work, and that a good principle to work from is the tithe. 

 

Again, not "demanding" a tithe, I just think it is a good principle to follow...

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"I believe" is opinion... speculation.  Not the written Word.

Written Word reveals that there were many trades at the time the Law was given to Moses. 

In the book of Leviticus, God is specific as to what was to be tithed.  And that is consistent even to Jesus' day... crops and livestock.   Leviticus is clear what God expected as tithe.  And there is no mention of anything other than that which was grown in gardens or vineyards or orchards or of livestock that was said to be tithed.

To say bankers tithed is adding to the Word of God... something we are warned against doing.  God said His tithe was eaten, not spent.

I'll stick with what the Word of God says.  It was consistently food from the time God instituted it in the Mosaic Law to the time Jesus commended the Pharisees.

The burden of proof lies with you.  Where is the Scripture that says it was changed from what was written in the Law to money?

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Have you considered there's a chance you may be wrong? Does it not seem odd to you that in a group of fundamentalists with a quite conservative view of Scripture all of them (at least the ones that are speaking up) are on the opposing side? Is it more likely that all of us who are Biblically sound and consistent of the other topics frequented here are blatantly wrong? Or is it more likely that you as the one standing in opposition may be missing something? You keep asking "where's the principle" and people keep trying to show you; but rather than consider what is said about the principle you would rather throw down strawmen of technicality without ever thoughtfully interacting with the point being made. Steve made a valid point about it all being a valuable commodity and all you care to respond about is a flimsy argument about direct commands to bankers and other tradesmen. Did you consider that even bankers, and coppersmiths, and potters likely had crops and livestock to some extent? Did you consider that they may be tithing out of that? Did you consider they may be tithing out of the crops and livestock they purchased with money from their other trade? Or are you so stuck on your insistence that only farmers and herdsmen tithed that you can't see any other possibility? Did you also consider that when the Law was actually given there were no farmers at all? They were still wandering in the wilderness eating manna. Did they tithe out the manna they collected??

 

When the overwhelming majority of people you otherwise agree with on many other subjects disagree with you on something in unison, your first response shouldn't be to insist everyone else is wrong. Rather, a better approach is to consider that you might be missing something and ask God to illuminate the subject and when both sides of the argument are thoughtfully engaged, make a judgement on the truth of it.  Consider actually engaging people's arguments instead of assuming they're wrong and searching for some way to get around it.

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