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Donald

Should I Be A Channel?

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Tithing for believers today is no doubt unScriptural. Jesus and His Apostles taught far more than 10%, just 10% or less is sin. And we know that no sinner can inherit the Kingdom of God

 

Professing christians who give 10% or less were never truly saved to begin with or have not worked hard enough to "keep" their salvation

 

What's good for the goose, as they say.

 

If it stands to reason that those born again believers who drink wine were never actually saved or have not worked hard enough to keep their salvation than it also stands to reason that those that claim to be saved and keep back anything they have or make; Those that won't sell all they have and follow Jesus, trusting Him completely for all their needs are obviously following a different false Jesus then that of God's Word.

(hic) Perhaps this rings a bell to those who have followed some recent threads :mock:

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The Lord said it repeatedly in several places throughout the Gospels, give all and live by faith, anything not of faith is sin. No sinner can inherit the Kingdom of God.

Look it up yourself but not in a commentary or "christian fiction" book. Try the actual Word.

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Concerning Galatians 6, the verses should be read from verse 1 through verse 10.  Then, one can see Paul is not speaking about tithing.  For he ends the paragraph with

Galatians 6:10 As we have therefore opportunity, let us do good unto all men, especially unto them who are of the household of faith.

The instruction in verse 6 to communicate in all good things is accented with "do good unto all men, especially unto them who are of the household of faith." 

The communication is "do good to all".  It is not speaking of tithes.

 

Not arguing about the tithe....just saying that I think your interpretation of Gal. 6 is incorrect.

 

"Communication" in the passage is a reference to giving, albeit not tithing.

 

Galatians 6:6 Let him that is taught in the word communicate unto him that teacheth in all good things.

 

Philippians 4:15 Now ye Philippians know also, that in the beginning of the gospel, when I departed from Macedonia, no church communicated with me as concerning giving and receiving, but ye only.

 

Hence we interpret the unclear passage of Gal. 6:6 in light of the crystal clear passage of Phil 4:15 - "as concerning giving and receiving..."  Scripture defines itself.

  It is about giving to the preacher who teaches "good things."   It fits this cross-reference:

1Ti 5:17 ¶ Let the elders that rule well be counted worthy of double honour, especially they who labour in the word and doctrine.
1Ti 5:18 For the scripture saith, Thou shalt not muzzle the ox that treadeth out the corn. And, The labourer is worthy of his reward.

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Phil. 4:15 defines it...

As does Romans 15:27 It hath pleased them verily; and their debtors they are. For if the Gentiles have been made partakers of their spiritual things, their duty is also to minister unto them in carnal things.

 

And I Cor. 9

 

adios

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Maybe this will help, From Websters  1828 dictionary 

 

COMMUNICATE, v.t.
1. To impart; to give to another, as a partaker; to confer for joint possession; to bestow, as that which the receiver is to hold, retain, use or enjoy; with to.
Where God is worshiped, there he communicates his blessings and holy influences.
Let him that is taught in the word communicate to him that teacheth in all good things. Gal. 6.

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Good morning Steve

In your response to “Standing Firm In Christ”, you said........
“Not arguing about the tithe....just saying that I think your interpretation of Gal. 6 is incorrect.

"Communication" in the passage is a reference to giving, albeit not tithing.
Galatians 6:6 Let him that is taught in the word communicate unto him that teacheth in all good things.

Philippians 4:15 Now ye Philippians know also, that in the beginning of the gospel, when I departed from Macedonia, no church communicated with me as concerning giving and receiving, but ye only.
Hence we interpret the unclear passage of Gal. 6:6 in light of the crystal clear passage of Phil 4:15 - "as concerning giving and receiving..."  Scripture defines itself.

  It is about giving to the preacher who teaches "good things."   It fits this cross-reference:
1Ti 5:17 ¶ Let the elders that rule well be counted worthy of double honour, especially they who labour in the word and doctrine.
1Ti 5:18 For the scripture saith, Thou shalt not muzzle the ox that treadeth out the corn. And, The labourer is worthy of his reward.”


I agree about the meaning of the word “communicate” in this passage and elsewhere;
(And “Standing Firm In Christ”’s contention that “the context” doesn’t agree with that definition, doesn’t hold water; Because the words are what make the context.)

But my question to you is, are you saying that you don’t think Galatians 6: is talking about tithing?
And if you believe in tithing, what Scriptures to you use to support that belief?

See you later
 

Edited by Donald

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Hello Donald,

Could you darken your font?  Cyan is so hard on the eyes.

Here is the Greek word that 'communicate is translated from in Galatians 6:6:

Strong's Greek Dictionary
2841. koinoneo
Search for G2841 in KJVSL koinwnew koinoneo koy-no-neh'-o

from 2844; to share with others (objectively or subjectively):--communicate, distribute, be partaker.

See Greek 2844

To share with others does not necessitate tithing or money
distribute does not necessitate tithing or money
partake of does not necessitate tithing or money.

The context of Galatians is not speaking of tithing at all.  If it were speaking of tithing, it would not say 'in all good things."

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Hello Standing Firm In Christ

Let me be perfectly honest; I never thought in a millions years that I would ever be even considering “questioning” the Doctrine of tithing; But my previous encounters on this site and my personal insistence that others produce SCRIPTURE to back up their beliefs, has caused me to apply that same rule to myself.

Tithing is something that I was taught from a very young age as a Christian, and I have never questioned it: Because I can see it in the Bible and I couldn’t see any other way that God’s Church could keep it’s doors open.

Now this second statement about needing money from God’s people to keep the Church’s doors open, can clearly been seen in Galatians 6: (but is this a tithe)
And just because the Bible “says something” about tithing, doesn’t always mean that it means what I think it says.
------------------------
Probably the one thing that has opened my mind to even consider “questioning my practice of tithing”, is my present pastor’s attitude toward giving.  He makes it clear, that he doesn’t question ANYTHING he does that gets people in Church to give their money; Because he honestly believes that “they can’t ever hurt themselves, giving to God’s work”.

Now this “may” be true, but it has opened the door for him to get very creative and bold, in his methods of getting people to “give”.
------------------------
So now you know, where I am coming from in this discussion.
 

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Is it really "money" that keeps the church doors open?

1 Peter 5:2 Feed the flock of God which is among you, taking the oversight thereof, not by constraint, but willingly; not for filthy lucre, but of a ready mind;

 

1 Timothy 6:9 But they that will be rich fall into temptation and a snare, and into many foolish and hurtful lusts, which drown men in destruction and perdition.
1 Timothy 6:10 For the love of money is the root of all evil: which while some coveted after, they have erred from the faith, and pierced themselves through with many sorrows.

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You've lost me, Donald.

Where does Galatians 6 say to give money to keep Church doors open?

 

Galatians 6:6-8
V.6 Let him that is taught in the word communicate unto him that teacheth in all good things.
V.7 Be not deceived; God is not mocked: for whatsoever a man soweth, that shall he also reap.
V.8 For he that soweth to his flesh shall of the flesh reap corruption; but he that soweth to the Spirit shall of the Spirit reap life everlasting.



------------------------
“Let him that is taught in the word” (THE LOCAL CHURCH MEMBER)

“communicate unto him that teacheth” (GIVE TO THE WORK OF THE CHURCH)
   BECAUSE THE CHURCH NEEDS MONEY TO KEEP THE LIGHTS ON!

“in all good things.”  (GIVE OF YOUR GOOD THINGS TO YOUR CHURCH)

“Be not deceived;” (HERE IS AN AREA IN OUR LIVES, THAT CAN CAUSE US TROUBLE)
WE CAN DECEIVE OURSELVES INTO THINKING OUR LOCAL CHURCH DOESN’T NEED OUR SUPPORT.

“God is not mocked:” (THE LORD IS TOTALLY AWARE OF OUR HEARTS ATTITUDE TOWARD OUR LOCAL CHURCH:)
AND HE WILL RESPOND ACCORDINGLY.

“for whatsoever a man soweth, that shall he also reap.”  (WHERE WE PUT OUR MONEY AND SUPPORT WILL BRING FORTH SOME KIND OF FRUIT IN OUR LIVES)

“For he that soweth to his flesh” (SOWING TO THE FLESH IS FORGETTING ABOUT THE LORD AND OTHERS IN OUR LIFE’S RESOURCES)

“shall of the flesh reap corruption;” (THIS PRACTICE OF NOT CONSIDERING THE LORD AND HIS MINISTRY TO YOUR LIFE AND THE LIVES OF OTHERS, WILL BRING FORTH CORRUPTION IN YOUR LIFE)


“but he that soweth to the Spirit” (SOWING TO THE SPIRIT IS REMEMBERING THAT THE LORD HAS GIVEN YOU EVERYTHING YOU HAVE AND BEING WILLING TO USE IT FOR HIS WORK IN YOUR LIFE AND THE LIVES OF OTHERS)

“shall of the Spirit reap life everlasting.” (THE THINGS WE DO WITH OUR RESOURCES DIRECTLY EFFECTS OUR LIVES HERE AND OUR LIFE IN ETERNITY).....

Luke 16:11
“If therefore ye have not been faithful in the unrighteous mammon, who will commit to your trust the true [riches]?”

 

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Donald said:

Tithing is something that I was taught from a very young age as a Christian

 

And I was also taught that from a very young age too.  But at a certain point in life, I began to, not just read the Word of God, but to study the Word of God; looking up verses and comparing Scripture with Scripture.  It was not until then that I realized that what I was taught concerning tithing did not line up with what the Bible actually says.

There are many doctrines that I was taught growing up, raised in a Pentecostal denomination and even being ordained to preach the Gospel by a Pentecostal Church.  (yes, I do have a certificate of ordination)

But it was not until after my ordination that I began having doubts about some of the doctrines of that faith.  Doctrines such as tongues, slain in the Spirit, etc..  I began studying more and more, searching, searching through the Word, listening to sermons, and began seeing that the doctrines just did not match the Scriptures.

I left the Pentecostal faith in '88,  being compelled by the doctrines taught in the Baptist denomination.  They were closer to what i believed than anything other.  I prayed about it and felt the Lord wanted me to start a new Church in the community in which I lived.  And so, MorningStar was formed, Baptistic in beliefs (except for the doctrine of tithes)  I pastored that Church for two years before moving to North Carolina and opening a satellite Church also called MorningStar.  There, I pastored for six years before having to step down due to health issues.

Both Churches are still in operation, and last I heard each had more than 80 members.

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You've totally destroyed the true meaning of those verses, Donald.

They are not speaking of keeping a Church doors open. 

 

I thought that the main point of the passage(that I put forth), wasn’t keeping the Church doors open, but our attitude about giving to God’s work.

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In light of other Scripture, I cannot see how Paul could have been saying that pastors should be paid for their ministering in Galatians 6.

Notice:

1 Corinthians 9:18 What is my reward then? Verily that, when I preach the gospel, I may make the gospel of Christ without charge, that I abuse not my power in the gospel.

Here Paul stated that he did not charge for the preaching of the Gospel.  His reason?  He did not want to want to abuse his power (or effectiveness) in the Gospel. 

Elsewhere, he wrote:

Acts 20:33-35 I have coveted no man's silver, or gold, or apparel. Yea, ye yourselves know, that these hands have ministered unto my necessities, and to them that were with me. I have shewed you all things, how that so labouring ye ought to support the weak, and to remember the words of the Lord Jesus, how he said, It is more blessed to give than to receive.

Paul was telling the Elders that they should work as he worked, not taking a salary for the ministry.

2 Thessalonians 3:7-9 For yourselves know how ye ought to follow us: for we behaved not ourselves disorderly among you; Neither did we eat any man's bread for nought; but wrought with labour and travail night and day, that we might not be chargeable to any of you: Not because we have not power, but to make ourselves an ensample unto you to follow us.

Again, Paul stresses that his labouring (working) should be an example... in other words, they should work as he worked.

In Ephesus, we see the same thing...

Acts 18:3 And because he was of the same craft, he abode with them, and wrought: for by their occupation they were tentmakers.

Paul worked as a tentmaker.  He abode there three years, not receiving salary, nor receiving tithes.  He worked to support himself as he later attested before the Elders in chapter 20 of Acts.

2 Corinthians 12:14-18 Behold, the third time I am ready to come to you; and I will not be burdensome to you: for I seek not yours, but you: for the children ought not to lay up for the parents, but the parents for the children. And I will very gladly spend and be spent for you; though the more abundantly I love you, the less I be loved. But be it so, I did not burden you: nevertheless, being crafty, I caught you with guile. Did I make a gain of you by any of them whom I sent unto you? I desired Titus, and with him I sent a brother. Did Titus make a gain of you? walked we not in the same spirit? walked we not in the same steps?

Again, Paul and his faithful companions did not take remuneration for their preaching the Gospel to the Churches in several cities.  It is just unimaginable that Paul would give license to the pastors in Galatia to accept payment for preaching after setting an example in other Churches that told pastors to work as he worked.

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Good morning Steve

In your response to “Standing Firm In Christ”, you said........
“Not arguing about the tithe....just saying that I think your interpretation of Gal. 6 is incorrect.

"Communication" in the passage is a reference to giving, albeit not tithing.
Galatians 6:6 Let him that is taught in the word communicate unto him that teacheth in all good things.

Philippians 4:15 Now ye Philippians know also, that in the beginning of the gospel, when I departed from Macedonia, no church communicated with me as concerning giving and receiving, but ye only.
Hence we interpret the unclear passage of Gal. 6:6 in light of the crystal clear passage of Phil 4:15 - "as concerning giving and receiving..."  Scripture defines itself.

  It is about giving to the preacher who teaches "good things."   It fits this cross-reference:
1Ti 5:17 ¶ Let the elders that rule well be counted worthy of double honour, especially they who labour in the word and doctrine.
1Ti 5:18 For the scripture saith, Thou shalt not muzzle the ox that treadeth out the corn. And, The labourer is worthy of his reward.”


I agree about the meaning of the word “communicate” in this passage and elsewhere;
(And “Standing Firm In Christ”’s contention that “the context” doesn’t agree with that definition, doesn’t hold water; Because the words are what make the context.)

But my question to you is, are you saying that you don’t think Galatians 6: is talking about tithing?
And if you believe in tithing, what Scriptures to you use to support that belief?

See you later
 

I believe the NT standard for giving is based in II Cor. 9:6-9. 

However, the NT is built upon the foundation of the OT.  Therefore, Rom. 15:4 is the operative principle.  The OT exists to give us an example.  While we are not under the Law in regards to salvation, we can't entirely dismiss the Law as a rule of living either.  Murder is still murder, theft is still theft, sodomy is still sodomy.

Since Abraham tithed before the Law, and tithing was commanded under the Law, then I see the "tithe" as simply the baseline model for the NT Christian to follow by example.  While there is no specific command in the NT to "tithe," it does not hurt the Christian to start their, with the understanding the NT believer is to give out of a willing, cheerful heart, out of love for our Saviour.  But that does not mean that our giving is not sacrificial, or without purpose. 

The issue is further complicated when people say "tithe" when they really mean "give."  Some people really mean "tithe" as 10% of their income, others use it as a generic reference to giving.

Thus, at our church I do not enforce a tithe on anyone.  I don't check the giving records, I don't demand a financial statement from our members and then check their giving records to see if they are actually "tithing" as some churches do.  I preach that if we in the NT cannot do better under grace than the OT saints did under the Law, then something is wrong somewhere.  Therefore, we START with the "tithe" as a baseline example from the OT, and then go beyond that if at all possible.  But again, that is my exhortation, not my demand.  It is entirely up to the individual as to how much they give.  I don't check it.  It is between them and the Lord.

 

Hopefully that helps you understand my position.

There are several other threads on this forum about this topic, I just can't find them right now...

 

In Christ,

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I might regret interjecting into this topic again for it seems a fruitless effort every time. :bonk: However...I sometimes think all of this quibbling and equivocation about things such as whether the tithe is/was crops or currency and the process it was to be taken up and transferred and frequency and on and on ad nauseum misses the point of of the whole thing. As I recall Jesus consistently rebuked the Scribes and Pharisees for ahering to the strict letter of the Law and missing important spiritual matters of the heart behind it. Indeed, this was the entire thrust of Matthew 5 and 23. Legalism is strict adherance to the letter of the law rather than the spirit and it goes both ways on the issue. Demanding people pay 10% of their income to the church to maintain membership (or any other similar form of prerequisite) is legalism. Rebuking any practice of tithing because we're not an agrarian theocracy with an official priesthood under Mosaic Law is likewise legalism.

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I suppose we'll just have to agree to disagree. I see it in terms of Biblical principle (which I laid out in another thread, and  so won't rehash here) and you see it only in terms of Law.  I acknowledge that the Law in its entirety is abolished but you don't see or disagree with the principle aspect.  There doesn't seem to be any room for movement on either side so there really isn't anything else to discuss on it.

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If there were such a "principle", why no mention of it in the Word of God? Where are the New Testament writers teaching this "principle"?

Perhaps you are referring to one of these principles? http://www.tithing-russkelly.com/id39.html

Edited by Standing Firm In Christ

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