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Should I Be A Channel?


Donald

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But the thread had nothing to do with tithing until you inserted your hobby horse soap box. You already ruined the thread and forced yet another thread into your anti tithe mantra, that seems to be the case with you in almost every thread your post on. I for one am just plain tired of hearing about your obsession. It is clear to me and to many others on this site that your heart is obviously hard against giving. You slander, you cavil, you mis quote, you falsely accuse just about any one who even mentions any standard of giving.

I read your blog the other day. You sir are seriously obsessed with money in general which simply tells me you are in fact consumed with greed. Out of the mouth comes the issues of your life. Money becomes a stumbling block for you, you constantly stalk this site for any whisper of giving and then you pounce upon any mention and berate any one who dares to suggest that tithing is a good place to start with regular giving.

 

If I do tithe, it is in no way an OT law tithe. It could´t be, we are not obligated to any OT tithe. Tithe is simply 10% of what I have. A tithe is a simple mathematical equation to help one understand a percentage point of a given quantity. You have yet to produce one shred of evidence that any one on this site ever posted that tithing is an obligation for any Christian.

 

I personally an just plain sick and tired of you and your endless tirades. Give it a rest. Trust God to lead a soul here without your 2 cents worth. You demonstrate very little grace, very little kindness and very little faith in God to lead His people (NOT YOURS!) in what He would have them do.

 

I have said it before and i will say it again. Your spirit is miserly, your attitude is spiteful and you come across as an angry man very often. Whatever Bible knowledge you may posses, I wouldn´t give you the time of day to listen to it. There is no meekness in your tirades and endless belittling rem,arks.

 

If I was the mod here, I´d simply ban you. Not because I cant handle the truth, (You have never heard me tell any one to tithe, and you never will) but simply due to your contentious spirit and quarrelsome nature. You are a lousy example of godliness, sir, and that is said with much charity.

 

calvary

 

I have stated several times before, I could care a whit what you do or don´t do with your goods.

After you have walked a mile or two in our shoes, then feel free to come back here and judge our "journey"...then you can tell us how "greedy" and "obsessed with money" we really are.  I sure do hope you have a liking for Ramen noodles because that is what you will be eating for a month....plus alot of "crow".

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You don't have to say, "I tithe" verbatim.  If you didn't believe in the monetary tithe, you wouldn't be attacking my character as you do. 

It has been my experience with everyone I have ever conversed with concerning the unscriptural monetary tithe doctrine that, if they believed in it, they attacked me and accused me of being greedy and and all kinds of lies.

As I said, you don't have to say it verbatim.  Your posts reveal your stance.

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As my wife said, our meal is Ramen noodles.  We live on a scant disability check each and that goes to bills; i.e. rent, car payment, gas and utilities.

We do not live extravagantly, have not bought any new clothes in several years, nor do we have expensive clothes or expensive furniture.  We barely get by each month.

If you're tired of my reading my posts about tithes, the simple solution would be to just not read my posts.  I am sure there is an ignore feature provided that you could use.  Problem solved.

 

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The fact is, everyone who knows us personally knows I am not greedy, nor is my wife.

We have worked on people's PC's at no charge. Printed out page after page of materials for people at no charge, and done many things for others at no charge.

My articles about the tithe are not because of greed at all.  They are because of dishonest pastors extorting money from unlearned Church members.

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Sounds like Calvary hit a nerve!

 

By the way, Levites tithed too, or don't they count?  As for "ordinances", they are a synonym for "Law" (Used many times in Psa. 119) and verse 7 (Malachi) is true, they have not kept Gods laws, even in failing to tithe.

 

By the way what does "forever" mean?  In my post, i believe I said at least a few times that the tithe was a perpetual command, therefore it was not done away with.

 

I too became weary with your constant harping about not tithing, that is what prompted my post.  If you do not want to tithe, then don't, but please don't spread your poison around.

 

 

To get back on subject, 2 Cor 9 gives us a picture of "channeling" funds to others in need.

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Irishman,

Let's suppose that the tithes were perpetual.  (I do not see Scripture saying they are, but just suppose)

You still run into a huge problem.  The tithes that you say are "forever" were not tithes of money... they were tithes of crops and livestock, oil,  wine, and flour.

So where do you get the authority to change these tithes that you say are "forever" from crops, livestock, oil, wine and flour to money?  Scripture and verse please?

It saddens me that you think the Word of God is poison.

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Well, we know that the OT tithe, even though agricultural, had monetary value.  We know this because of the allowance the Law makes to change the tithe into money, then buy back the produce at the Temple.  So it is not like they just brought 1/10th of their grain down to the Levitical city or the Temple, it was a valued commodity that had monetary value. 

Yes, we know and understand that the Lord did not tell the bankers to "tithe" and the tithe as described in the Law was from the fields or cattle.  We got that.  But the principle of it is that it was a valuable commodity.  It had real monetary value assigned to it.  It was a sacrifice for those agricultural people to give a tithe.  I believe the Lord did not mention the business men in the Law because the Lord's intentions for Israel was to be a rural society, and minimize the power of corrupt people in the cities.  I believe the Lord desired an agriculturally based economy for the nation of Israel, thus the instructions on the tithe.  I don't think for one minute that the Lord exempted the city dwellers from the tithe, I just think that some things go without saying.  (City dwellers deal in cold, hard currency.)  If God demanded a tithe from the farmers and ranchers, then why would God NOT require a tithe from the business men and bankers?   It doesn't make sense (cents? :icon_redface: ).  It just goes without saying. 

And as Irishman pointed out, the NT is built upon the foundation of the apostles and PROPHETS (i.e. the OT).  Maybe the Lord did not put this issue in the NT because He figured we would be smart enough to pick up on the idea that we should give generously and sacrificially to the Lord's work, and that a good principle to work from is the tithe. 

 

Again, not "demanding" a tithe, I just think it is a good principle to follow...

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"I believe" is opinion... speculation.  Not the written Word.

Written Word reveals that there were many trades at the time the Law was given to Moses. 

In the book of Leviticus, God is specific as to what was to be tithed.  And that is consistent even to Jesus' day... crops and livestock.   Leviticus is clear what God expected as tithe.  And there is no mention of anything other than that which was grown in gardens or vineyards or orchards or of livestock that was said to be tithed.

To say bankers tithed is adding to the Word of God... something we are warned against doing.  God said His tithe was eaten, not spent.

I'll stick with what the Word of God says.  It was consistently food from the time God instituted it in the Mosaic Law to the time Jesus commended the Pharisees.

The burden of proof lies with you.  Where is the Scripture that says it was changed from what was written in the Law to money?

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Have you considered there's a chance you may be wrong? Does it not seem odd to you that in a group of fundamentalists with a quite conservative view of Scripture all of them (at least the ones that are speaking up) are on the opposing side? Is it more likely that all of us who are Biblically sound and consistent of the other topics frequented here are blatantly wrong? Or is it more likely that you as the one standing in opposition may be missing something? You keep asking "where's the principle" and people keep trying to show you; but rather than consider what is said about the principle you would rather throw down strawmen of technicality without ever thoughtfully interacting with the point being made. Steve made a valid point about it all being a valuable commodity and all you care to respond about is a flimsy argument about direct commands to bankers and other tradesmen. Did you consider that even bankers, and coppersmiths, and potters likely had crops and livestock to some extent? Did you consider that they may be tithing out of that? Did you consider they may be tithing out of the crops and livestock they purchased with money from their other trade? Or are you so stuck on your insistence that only farmers and herdsmen tithed that you can't see any other possibility? Did you also consider that when the Law was actually given there were no farmers at all? They were still wandering in the wilderness eating manna. Did they tithe out the manna they collected??

 

When the overwhelming majority of people you otherwise agree with on many other subjects disagree with you on something in unison, your first response shouldn't be to insist everyone else is wrong. Rather, a better approach is to consider that you might be missing something and ask God to illuminate the subject and when both sides of the argument are thoughtfully engaged, make a judgement on the truth of it.  Consider actually engaging people's arguments instead of assuming they're wrong and searching for some way to get around it.

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Does it seem odd to anyone that the conservative fundamentalists of the past held to much different views in several areas than those who call themselves conservative fundamentalists today?

 

Does anyone find it telling that so many today are willing to write volumes to promote various viewpoints that's nowhere found in the New Testament for Christians?

 

Does anyone see that IFBs are a rather small group and yet they are often greatly divided over several matters?

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Conservative view of Scripture????

I have Scripture to back every bit of what I teach concerning tithes.  At best, you have twisted Scripture to say something it does not say.

Where is the Scripture that says the tithe of crops and livestock was changed to a tithe of money?
Where is the Scripture that says the once a year tithe was changed to weekly/b-weekly?
Where is the Scripture that says the tithe is now to pay Church overhead?

Obviously, your "conservative view of Scripture" isn't as conservative as you want to believe it is.  You have to add to Scripture in order to justify the doctrine you teach... I don't.

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Case in point. All of that and you zone in on one thing you think you can tear down and avoid all the rest. I, as well as others, have offered multiple Scriptures with explanation in multiple threads and you've either rejected or ignored them and offered only pithy strawmen in return. You clearly don't want to hear anything but agreement and aquiescence to your interpretation. All done here. I won't engage in this exercise in futility anymore.

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Case in point. All of that and you zone in on one thing you think you can tear down and avoid all the rest. I, as well as others, have offered multiple Scriptures with explanation in multiple threads and you've either rejected or ignored them and offered only pithy strawmen in return. You clearly don't want to hear anything but agreement and aquiescence to your interpretation. All done here. I won't engage in this exercise in futility anymore.

Which explains why I offered the links to Donald in the first place.... ;)

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I'm positive that I can. :biggrin:


The Scripture you have offered, you have had to twist into suppositions.

The Bible is not a book of suppositions. It is a book of absolutes.

You have consistently taken New Testament verses out of context to try to prove your monetary tithe doctrine.

The facts remain, the apostles never taught a monetary tithe. The first eighteen centuries after the death, burial and resurrection of our Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ, the Christian Church never taught a monetary tithe. It was not until 1873 A.D. That the Protestant Churches began teaching the monetary tithe. It would be some fifty years after that before the Baptists began teaching the monetary tithe.

Who first taught the monetary tithe? The Roman Catholic Religious System in 777 A.D..

You are embracing and teaching a Catholic doctrine... POPERY!

I'll just stick to what the Bible reveals and to solid Christian doctrine. God abolished the tithe through His Son Jesus Christ.
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