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Hebrew Roots Sacred Name


2T3:16

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I forgot one last group in my list. Jews for Jesus. A lot of people erroneously call Messianic Jews "Jews for Jesus". Jews for Jesus is actually its own separate entity. Jews for Jesus is a group of evangelical Christians who converted to Christianity from Judaism, reject the Torah, do not have anything to do with Judaica, and do not celebrate the feasts. They are completely assimilated to the "Gentile" way and they go into Jewish communities to convert Jews to Christianity. They do so by employing deceptive tactics and confusing language in their missionary work.

I have a friend (also Jewish) who was a personal friend of Moishe Rosen, the founder of J4J.  She told me that Moishe Rosen,  "in the time leading up to his death just a few years ago, he was quite concerned about "the Tora Observant crowd" which is so foolishly influenced by not wanting to displease our mainstream-rabbinic Kinsmen in the Flesh."  IOW, the direction of J4J is headed toward the "Hebrew Roots" direction in order to please the Rabbinic Jews.  I observed this also.  The ministry didn't start out that way, but it is certainly headed in that direction....plus they are becoming very ecumenical.   They used to be very evangelical and I used to support the ministry back in the 80s.
 

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I think it's vital to understand that there are three different factions being discussed here.

1. Messianic Jews are people who are Jewish by virtue of birth or legitimate conversion into Judaism who later accept Jesus Christ as the Messiah. They are still, for all intents and purposes, ethnic Jews who have denied the Jewish belief that the Messiah of Israel has not yet come although Orthodox and Reform Jews reject them as no longer being Jewish.

2. Hebrew Roots Movement is a vast group that is as diverse as Pagans. There is no central authority of leadership and there is heavy emphasis on non-trinitarian beliefs and replacement theology (that there is a "spiritual Israel" and a "physical Israel"). Some will observe Torah laws that don't even pertain to today, including Jews, such as blood sacrifice.

3. Torah Observant Christians are Christians who believe in the Trinity, believe in the second coming of Christ, believe in Jesus as the Messiah...but, there is heavy emphasis on learning Hebrew as a language to better understand the Bible, following the laws of the Torah which pertain to modern times (i.e., Jews today typically do not observe Torah laws that pertain to the Levitical priesthood or temple worship), observing a Saturday Shabbat, and celebrating the traditional Jewish feasts.

.

I'm finding this discussion quite timely; I just ran into an example of group #3 on the internet today for the first time, and was going to bring them up here as well! The one Torah ministry page I read through sounded good...it specifically Dennie's that they were Judaizers... but it basically said that since the Torah was God's original message to man on how to live, it was relevant for us today to teach us how to live. I'm all for learning God's principles as revealed through the OT, but... there didn't seem to be any recognizance of the difference between the Old Covenant and the New.
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They don't know how to do this:

 

 "Study to shew thyself approved unto God, a workman that needeth not to be ashamed, rightly dividing the word of truth." - 2 Timothy 2:15

 

And they ignore this:

 

"And that from a child thou hast known the holy scriptures, which are able to make thee wise unto salvation through faith which is in Christ Jesus.  All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness:  That the man of God may be perfect, throughly furnished unto all good works." - 2 Timothy 3:15-17

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They get around that by claiming...

 

1 Samuel 15:22 
And Samuel said, Hath the LORD as great delight in burnt offerings and sacrifices, as in obeying the voice of the LORD? Behold, to obey is better than sacrifice, and to hearken than the fat of rams.

and...
 
Hosea 6:6 
For I desired mercy, and not sacrifice; and the knowledge of God more than burnt offerings.
 
Well...let me recant.  I don't know if "they" claim that or not.  I did hear a Jewish man use those verses to explain away their lack of sacrifice though.  It wouldn't surprise me if "they" do the same.
 
 

 

Yeah, what a bunch of frauds. The Lord didn't say not to keep the sacrifices just that they don't amount to anything if they were disobeying every other part of the law.

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Yeah, I've run into a few that claimed that "Jesus" is Zeus and we should not use the name.

This is funny because the name for Zeus in Greek, is literally Zeus, not Iesous (Jesus). Also, the contemporary translation for Zeus is no longer Zeus in Greek, but Dias.

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I have a friend (also Jewish) who was a personal friend of Moishe Rosen, the founder of J4J.  She told me that Moishe Rosen,  "in the time leading up to his death just a few years ago, he was quite concerned about "the Tora Observant crowd" which is so foolishly influenced by not wanting to displease our mainstream-rabbinic Kinsmen in the Flesh."  IOW, the direction of J4J is headed toward the "Hebrew Roots" direction in order to please the Rabbinic Jews.  I observed this also.  The ministry didn't start out that way, but it is certainly headed in that direction....plus they are becoming very ecumenical.   They used to be very evangelical and I used to support the ministry back in the 80s.
 

Do you remember the debate I had with that nutjjob on the 'other' forum over this LOL. Most of the followers of this movement don't understand a lick of Hebrew, or know the difference between translation and transliteration. They insist on using the literal English tetragrammaton, but then spell it backwards LOL

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I think it's vital to understand that there are three different factions being discussed here.

 

 

3. Torah Observant Christians are Christians who believe in the Trinity, believe in the second coming of Christ, believe in Jesus as the Messiah...but, there is heavy emphasis on learning Hebrew as a language to better understand the Bible, following the laws of the Torah which pertain to modern times (i.e., Jews today typically do not observe Torah laws that pertain to the Levitical priesthood or temple worship), observing a Saturday Shabbat, and celebrating the traditional Jewish feasts. 

This is changing. Their are mock temples set up where even Hasidic, Sephardic, Mazrahi Jews are practicing temple rituals and sacrifices (without actual animals) in expectation of the rebuilding of the temple. All of the relics, Urim and Thummim, Mitre, etc..have all been recast and remade.

 

And many of the newer followers in America mistake the Torah for the entire OT which is not correct. Properly, the OT is the Tanakh, and the Torah are the first 5 books-Bereishit, Shemot, Vayikra, Bamidbar, and Devarim.

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.

I'm finding this discussion quite timely; I just ran into an example of group #3 on the internet today for the first time, and was going to bring them up here as well! The one Torah ministry page I read through sounded good...it specifically Dennie's that they were Judaizers... but it basically said that since the Torah was God's original message to man on how to live, it was relevant for us today to teach us how to live. I'm all for learning God's principles as revealed through the OT, but... there didn't seem to be any recognizance of the difference between the Old Covenant and the New.

Of course, the problem with this, is that the Torah, which even the Jews themselves understand to be specifically that which was given at Sinai, including the 10 commandments, was given, what, some 3-4,000 years after creation, meaning it wasn't God's "original message to mankind", but was specifically God's message given to Israel. God's original message, if one wants to be technical, was separation-'eat of all the trees of the garden, except the one in the midst of the garden'-separation has been a primary command of God since Eden, and man insists on breaking it.

 

  The reason for the flood was a breaking of separation-the sons of God with the daughters of men, (regardless of what it actually refers to) brought about wickedness and the entire earth was punished for it.  

 

A big part of the Sinaitic laws was separation: eat this, not that; don't mix the materials of your garments, don't mix your seed in your fields; dress diffeently than the nations, worship God differently than the nations-all designed to teach them separation between holy and unholy. 

 

Separation has permeated God's will for mankind since the beginning, and man's insistence in breaking separation keeps bringing about God's discipline against them. Today, the insistence of many that call themselves Christians and churches, to break biblical separation between themselves and the world and sin will bring about the end soon enough. Worldly dress, music, amusements, recreations and desires have permeated Christian thought as well as ecumenical-mindedness, which will bring about the one-world church, which will worship the antichrist.

 

Sorry-kind of went off-topic. Back to the main OP!

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This is changing. Their are mock temples set up where even Hasidic, Sephardic, Mazrahi Jews are practicing temple rituals and sacrifices (without actual animals) in expectation of the rebuilding of the temple. All of the relics, Urim and Thummim, Mitre, etc..have all been recast and remade.

 

And many of the newer followers in America mistake the Torah for the entire OT which is not correct. Properly, the OT is the Tanakh, and the Torah are the first 5 books-Bereishit, Shemot, Vayikra, Bamidbar, and Devarim.

So they remade the Urim and Thummim? Cool! I have always wondered what they were. Anyone know? I know the litersl meaning, lights and perfections, (I believe), and I know that somehow they gained God's will through them, but what were they? Who were they actually used? Anyone? Anyone?

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This is changing. Their are mock temples set up where even Hasidic, Sephardic, Mazrahi Jews are practicing temple rituals and sacrifices (without actual animals) in expectation of the rebuilding of the temple. All of the relics, Urim and Thummim, Mitre, etc..have all been recast and remade.

 

And many of the newer followers in America mistake the Torah for the entire OT which is not correct. Properly, the OT is the Tanakh, and the Torah are the first 5 books-Bereishit, Shemot, Vayikra, Bamidbar, and Devarim.

It's neat you brought this up, as I was talking about the Hasidic community in Brooklyn with my father just this morning. I asked my dad if he knew whether or not they followed all 613 mitzvot, or only the ones that pertain to today. He wasn't sure. It's interesting to learn that temple rituals are being practiced in Hasidism. 

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Do you remember the debate I had with that nutjjob on the 'other' forum over this LOL. Most of the followers of this movement don't understand a lick of Hebrew, or know the difference between translation and transliteration. They insist on using the literal English tetragrammaton, but then spell it backwards LOL

Yes!  That guy was clueless, as are many, many 'wannabes'!

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Of course, the problem with this, is that the Torah, which even the Jews themselves understand to be specifically that which was given at Sinai, including the 10 commandments, was given, what, some 3-4,000 years after creation, meaning it wasn't God's "original message to mankind", but was specifically God's message given to Israel. God's original message, if one wants to be technical, was separation-'eat of all the trees of the garden, except the one in the midst of the garden'-separation has been a primary command of God since Eden, and man insists on breaking it.

 

  The reason for the flood was a breaking of separation-the sons of God with the daughters of men, (regardless of what it actually refers to) brought about wickedness and the entire earth was punished for it.  

 

A big part of the Sinaitic laws was separation: eat this, not that; don't mix the materials of your garments, don't mix your seed in your fields; dress diffeently than the nations, worship God differently than the nations-all designed to teach them separation between holy and unholy. 

 

Separation has permeated God's will for mankind since the beginning, and man's insistence in breaking separation keeps bringing about God's discipline against them. Today, the insistence of many that call themselves Christians and churches, to break biblical separation between themselves and the world and sin will bring about the end soon enough. Worldly dress, music, amusements, recreations and desires have permeated Christian thought as well as ecumenical-mindedness, which will bring about the one-world church, which will worship the antichrist.

 

Sorry-kind of went off-topic. Back to the main OP!

 

Yes, but the morals given in them have not changed.

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Yes, but the morals given in them have not changed.

Here is my take on the Torah. Torah is for everyone. There is something we all can glean from reading the first five books of the Bible. What is not for everyone, however, (not even every Jewish person) is the mitzvot. Jesus said He came to fulfill the law, not abolish it. With that said. Jesus was saying He loved the law, but He came to be the final sacrificial Lamb. He was the ultimate blood sacrifice. His finished work on the cross means that we don't need a high priest to throw blood on the mercy seat to atone for our sins. 

 

Now, when we have the indwelling of the Holy Spirit, there are obviously mitzvahs that we, as Christians, will feel lead to keep. Such as:

 

To know there is a God.

Not to even think there are any other Gods besides Him.

To love Him.

To fear Him.

To emulate His ways.

To not bear a grudge.

To not blaspheme.

To make no graven idols.

To not listen to false prophets.

To not practice divination or medium work.

To repent and confess of wrongdoings.

To not have relations with your father's wife.

To give charity.

To not sit idly by while someone's life is in danger.

 

Some we obviously would not need to keep, such as:

 

To salt all sacrifices.

To not shave your beard or clip the sides of your head.

To not plants greens or grains in a vineyard.

To not eat raisins.

The first shearing of a sheep must be given to a Kohen.

To redeem the firstborn donkey by giving a lamb to a Kohen.

To burn incense every day.

To wear tzitzit on a four-cornered garment.

 

Now, we don't keep these because of any sort of archaic claim to Jewish heritage or to make an idol out of Judaica, but because we love God. We don't follow His ways because it's what redeems us. Christ redeems us. We don't celebrate Passover seders, because Christ is our Passover Lamb. 

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This is funny because the name for Zeus in Greek, is literally Zeus, not Iesous (Jesus). Also, the contemporary translation for Zeus is no longer Zeus in Greek, but Dias.

One of them told me that the Pope underhandedly corrupted the name of Jesus when it was translated into Latin; to which I say, even if it were true, who cares. I don't believe God is concerned with etymology. Nobody believes Jesus is Zeus or vice versa.

 

http://www.plim.org/JesusOrigin.htm

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