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I ran into some folks on the internet who say things like: " If you follow a Christ that teaches obedience to Torah, good. If not, then we bow before opposing masters. And can have no accord...." or "and the separator is Torah.
Those that DO verses those that DON'T
Those that do, love Yeshua, the Jewish Messiah.
Those that don't, love the impostor, that Greek lawless false Messiah, taught by those gentile "church fathers", that polluted the truth of who Yeshua is, after the death of the early Apostles."

 

Anybody ever run into this? What is this group about?

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  • Independent Fundamental Baptist

I ran into some folks on the internet who say things like: " If you follow a Christ that teaches obedience to Torah, good. If not, then we bow before opposing masters. And can have no accord...." or "and the separator is Torah.
Those that DO verses those that DON'T
Those that do, love Yeshua, the Jewish Messiah.
Those that don't, love the impostor, that Greek lawless false Messiah, taught by those gentile "church fathers", that polluted the truth of who Yeshua is, after the death of the early Apostles."

 

Anybody ever run into this? What is this group about?

I was part of that "group" for almost 10 years.  I was a member of a Messianic congregation in Colorado.  At least 85% of its members were Gentiles (I called them wannabe Jews).  This congregation was Torah observant and more focused on "Jewish" identity and tradition than they were Christ.  As a matter of fact, we were not allowed to use the name "Jesus"....we had to use "Yeshua".   Even the ministry "Jews for Jesus", which began in the early 70s (I think) by Moishe Rosen (now deceased) as strictly a Jewish evangelism ministry, has become very "Hebrew Roots"

I am an ethnic Jew.  I was born again almost 40 years ago.  The Hebrew Roots/Messianic movement is pretty much a cult with many schisms.

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Here, another quote from my "conversation", one of "them" said: "God's Word and Torah is the first fives books of the Bible. In the Torah God allows for more prophesies and Words to be added SO LONG as they don't change the Torah or diminish it (Deu 13), and the one giving these new words MUST tell people to follow Torah and the God who gave it. The whole Bible as I have studied has nothing in it that goes against the Torah and so in my opinion is God's inspired Word. This includes the Old and New Testaments

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Of the three Messianic Congregations in my city, one follows this strict Jewish tradition.

I met one member and debated with him for about 2 hours.  He finally "gave up" but

did not change his beliefs.  I think Paul called them "Judaizers".  There is nothing "new" here.

The name "Jesus" is directly from the Koine Greek (they had no "j", so "i" is changed to the English "j").

They borrow the doctrine of the Hebrew name from the "Divine Name" movement.

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These people claim if you worship Jesus, you do not worship yeshua. They claim Jesus is actually Zeus.

They are both dangerous, and deluded

Yeah, I've run into a few that claimed that "Jesus" is Zeus and we should not use the name.

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Here, another quote from my "conversation", one of "them" said: "God's Word and Torah is the first fives books of the Bible. In the Torah God allows for more prophesies and Words to be added SO LONG as they don't change the Torah or diminish it (Deu 13), and the one giving these new words MUST tell people to follow Torah and the God who gave it. The whole Bible as I have studied has nothing in it that goes against the Torah and so in my opinion is God's inspired Word. This includes the Old and New Testaments

None of these people follow the law. If they did they'd perform the sacrifices which was part of the law. None of them do. It would be hard too since there's no temple.

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None of these people follow the law. If they did they'd perform the sacrifices which was part of the law. None of them do. It would be hard too since there's no temple.

 

They get around that by claiming...

 

1 Samuel 15:22 
And Samuel said, Hath the LORD as great delight in burnt offerings and sacrifices, as in obeying the voice of the LORD? Behold, to obey is better than sacrifice, and to hearken than the fat of rams.

and...
 
Hosea 6:6 
For I desired mercy, and not sacrifice; and the knowledge of God more than burnt offerings.
 
Well...let me recant.  I don't know if "they" claim that or not.  I did hear a Jewish man use those verses to explain away their lack of sacrifice though.  It wouldn't surprise me if "they" do the same.
 
 
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I think it's vital to understand that there are three different factions being discussed here.

 

1. Messianic Jews are people who are Jewish by virtue of birth or legitimate conversion into Judaism who later accept Jesus Christ as the Messiah. They are still, for all intents and purposes, ethnic Jews who have denied the Jewish belief that the Messiah of Israel has not yet come although Orthodox and Reform Jews reject them as no longer being Jewish.

 

2. Hebrew Roots Movement is a vast group that is as diverse as Pagans. There is no central authority of leadership and there is heavy emphasis on non-trinitarian beliefs and replacement theology (that there is a "spiritual Israel" and a "physical Israel"). Some will observe Torah laws that don't even pertain to today, including Jews, such as blood sacrifice. 

 

3. Torah Observant Christians are Christians who believe in the Trinity, believe in the second coming of Christ, believe in Jesus as the Messiah...but, there is heavy emphasis on learning Hebrew as a language to better understand the Bible, following the laws of the Torah which pertain to modern times (i.e., Jews today typically do not observe Torah laws that pertain to the Levitical priesthood or temple worship), observing a Saturday Shabbat, and celebrating the traditional Jewish feasts. 

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Boy, I've gone around and around with many of those of the Hebrew Roots movement. Currently my wife is reading a book called, "Finding Jesus in the Jewish Feasts", or something like that, by Richard Booker. He doesn't seem to be Hebrew Roots, per se, but he thinks keeping the feasts, while not necessary, are important for Christians to see Jesus in al the types, to see Him in the pictures. I think understanding them is good-it IS scripture, but I think a keeping of them all is a mistake, because we were given ONE 'feast;, as it were, by Jesus for us to observe to see Jesus, and that is the Lord's Supper, and I think, rather than keeping the feasts that looked forward to the Messiah, we should keep the one that looks back to Him and what He did for us.

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Boy, I've gone around and around with many of those of the Hebrew Roots movement. Currently my wife is reading a book called, "Finding Jesus in the Jewish Feasts", or something like that, by Richard Booker. He doesn't seem to be Hebrew Roots, per se, but he thinks keeping the feasts, while not necessary, are important for Christians to see Jesus in al the types, to see Him in the pictures. I think understanding them is good-it IS scripture, but I think a keeping of them all is a mistake, because we were given ONE 'feast;, as it were, by Jesus for us to observe to see Jesus, and that is the Lord's Supper, and I think, rather than keeping the feasts that looked forward to the Messiah, we should keep the one that looks back to Him and what He did for us.

By a sheer technicality, no one in today's times can "keep" the feasts, since keeping the feasts were relevant to the places where God, Himself, ordained the practices to be observed. Since the literal temple has been destroyed, there is no way that Jews, or Messianics, or those belonging to the HRM can keep the feasts. They can observe, or celebrate, the feasts, but not keep them.

 

Now, here is my whole take. I don't observe traditional holiday practices that have Pagan roots and practices that were adopted by the early Catholic church and have been sanitized and secularized to appeal to consumerism. I take no part in Halloween, Christmas trees, Easter egg hunts, etc. Those are man made, Pagan in origin, and no amount of "Christianizing" them can redeem them, in my eyes. Perhaps it's my background in the occult that I see these things for what they are. Most people see them as innocuous, but if you've never worshiped a tree or seen the fertility aspects in a wreath you wouldn't understand the Pagan significance behind them. Nowhere does the Bible tell us to celebrate the birth of Jesus through the exchanging of presents, decorating a tree (in fact, God warned against the practice of cutting down a tree and adorning it with silver and gold in the book of Jeremiah), singing "Jingle Bells", etc. As a matter of fact, nowhere does the Bible say we are to observe the birth of Christ at all, particularly in December, when He wasn't really born, on a date that directly coincides with ancient Pagan sun deity worship. 

 

I, personally, don't see the danger in observing the feasts under two conditions:

 

1. They don't present a stumbling block to other believers or members of the Jewish faith/race. Some Jewish people take great offense when Gentiles hijack the traditional Jewish holy days for themselves.

 

2. They do not turn into a situation of works-righteousness. The feasts are not an atonement for our sin. They do not supersede Christ's finished work on the cross. They do not make a person more holy or sanctified than someone who does not observe the feasts. They are not salvation. They do not replace salvation through faith alone. 

Edited by JimsHelpmeet
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I forgot one last group in my list. Jews for Jesus. A lot of people erroneously call Messianic Jews "Jews for Jesus". Jews for Jesus is actually its own separate entity. Jews for Jesus is a group of evangelical Christians who converted to Christianity from Judaism, reject the Torah, do not have anything to do with Judaica, and do not celebrate the feasts. They are completely assimilated to the "Gentile" way and they go into Jewish communities to convert Jews to Christianity. They do so by employing deceptive tactics and confusing language in their missionary work.

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I forgot one last group in my list. Jews for Jesus. A lot of people erroneously call Messianic Jews "Jews for Jesus". Jews for Jesus is actually its own separate entity. Jews for Jesus is a group of evangelical Christians who converted to Christianity from Judaism, reject the Torah, do not have anything to do with Judaica, and do not celebrate the feasts. They are completely assimilated to the "Gentile" way and they go into Jewish communities to convert Jews to Christianity. They do so by employing deceptive tactics and confusing language in their missionary work.

I have a friend (also Jewish) who was a personal friend of Moishe Rosen, the founder of J4J.  She told me that Moishe Rosen,  "in the time leading up to his death just a few years ago, he was quite concerned about "the Tora Observant crowd" which is so foolishly influenced by not wanting to displease our mainstream-rabbinic Kinsmen in the Flesh."  IOW, the direction of J4J is headed toward the "Hebrew Roots" direction in order to please the Rabbinic Jews.  I observed this also.  The ministry didn't start out that way, but it is certainly headed in that direction....plus they are becoming very ecumenical.   They used to be very evangelical and I used to support the ministry back in the 80s.
 

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I think it's vital to understand that there are three different factions being discussed here.

1. Messianic Jews are people who are Jewish by virtue of birth or legitimate conversion into Judaism who later accept Jesus Christ as the Messiah. They are still, for all intents and purposes, ethnic Jews who have denied the Jewish belief that the Messiah of Israel has not yet come although Orthodox and Reform Jews reject them as no longer being Jewish.

2. Hebrew Roots Movement is a vast group that is as diverse as Pagans. There is no central authority of leadership and there is heavy emphasis on non-trinitarian beliefs and replacement theology (that there is a "spiritual Israel" and a "physical Israel"). Some will observe Torah laws that don't even pertain to today, including Jews, such as blood sacrifice.

3. Torah Observant Christians are Christians who believe in the Trinity, believe in the second coming of Christ, believe in Jesus as the Messiah...but, there is heavy emphasis on learning Hebrew as a language to better understand the Bible, following the laws of the Torah which pertain to modern times (i.e., Jews today typically do not observe Torah laws that pertain to the Levitical priesthood or temple worship), observing a Saturday Shabbat, and celebrating the traditional Jewish feasts.

.

I'm finding this discussion quite timely; I just ran into an example of group #3 on the internet today for the first time, and was going to bring them up here as well! The one Torah ministry page I read through sounded good...it specifically Dennie's that they were Judaizers... but it basically said that since the Torah was God's original message to man on how to live, it was relevant for us today to teach us how to live. I'm all for learning God's principles as revealed through the OT, but... there didn't seem to be any recognizance of the difference between the Old Covenant and the New.
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They don't know how to do this:

 

 "Study to shew thyself approved unto God, a workman that needeth not to be ashamed, rightly dividing the word of truth." - 2 Timothy 2:15

 

And they ignore this:

 

"And that from a child thou hast known the holy scriptures, which are able to make thee wise unto salvation through faith which is in Christ Jesus.  All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness:  That the man of God may be perfect, throughly furnished unto all good works." - 2 Timothy 3:15-17

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They get around that by claiming...

 

1 Samuel 15:22 
And Samuel said, Hath the LORD as great delight in burnt offerings and sacrifices, as in obeying the voice of the LORD? Behold, to obey is better than sacrifice, and to hearken than the fat of rams.

and...
 
Hosea 6:6 
For I desired mercy, and not sacrifice; and the knowledge of God more than burnt offerings.
 
Well...let me recant.  I don't know if "they" claim that or not.  I did hear a Jewish man use those verses to explain away their lack of sacrifice though.  It wouldn't surprise me if "they" do the same.
 
 

 

Yeah, what a bunch of frauds. The Lord didn't say not to keep the sacrifices just that they don't amount to anything if they were disobeying every other part of the law.

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Yeah, I've run into a few that claimed that "Jesus" is Zeus and we should not use the name.

This is funny because the name for Zeus in Greek, is literally Zeus, not Iesous (Jesus). Also, the contemporary translation for Zeus is no longer Zeus in Greek, but Dias.

Edited by Dr James Ach
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I have a friend (also Jewish) who was a personal friend of Moishe Rosen, the founder of J4J.  She told me that Moishe Rosen,  "in the time leading up to his death just a few years ago, he was quite concerned about "the Tora Observant crowd" which is so foolishly influenced by not wanting to displease our mainstream-rabbinic Kinsmen in the Flesh."  IOW, the direction of J4J is headed toward the "Hebrew Roots" direction in order to please the Rabbinic Jews.  I observed this also.  The ministry didn't start out that way, but it is certainly headed in that direction....plus they are becoming very ecumenical.   They used to be very evangelical and I used to support the ministry back in the 80s.
 

Do you remember the debate I had with that nutjjob on the 'other' forum over this LOL. Most of the followers of this movement don't understand a lick of Hebrew, or know the difference between translation and transliteration. They insist on using the literal English tetragrammaton, but then spell it backwards LOL

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I think it's vital to understand that there are three different factions being discussed here.

 

 

3. Torah Observant Christians are Christians who believe in the Trinity, believe in the second coming of Christ, believe in Jesus as the Messiah...but, there is heavy emphasis on learning Hebrew as a language to better understand the Bible, following the laws of the Torah which pertain to modern times (i.e., Jews today typically do not observe Torah laws that pertain to the Levitical priesthood or temple worship), observing a Saturday Shabbat, and celebrating the traditional Jewish feasts. 

This is changing. Their are mock temples set up where even Hasidic, Sephardic, Mazrahi Jews are practicing temple rituals and sacrifices (without actual animals) in expectation of the rebuilding of the temple. All of the relics, Urim and Thummim, Mitre, etc..have all been recast and remade.

 

And many of the newer followers in America mistake the Torah for the entire OT which is not correct. Properly, the OT is the Tanakh, and the Torah are the first 5 books-Bereishit, Shemot, Vayikra, Bamidbar, and Devarim.

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.

I'm finding this discussion quite timely; I just ran into an example of group #3 on the internet today for the first time, and was going to bring them up here as well! The one Torah ministry page I read through sounded good...it specifically Dennie's that they were Judaizers... but it basically said that since the Torah was God's original message to man on how to live, it was relevant for us today to teach us how to live. I'm all for learning God's principles as revealed through the OT, but... there didn't seem to be any recognizance of the difference between the Old Covenant and the New.

Of course, the problem with this, is that the Torah, which even the Jews themselves understand to be specifically that which was given at Sinai, including the 10 commandments, was given, what, some 3-4,000 years after creation, meaning it wasn't God's "original message to mankind", but was specifically God's message given to Israel. God's original message, if one wants to be technical, was separation-'eat of all the trees of the garden, except the one in the midst of the garden'-separation has been a primary command of God since Eden, and man insists on breaking it.

 

  The reason for the flood was a breaking of separation-the sons of God with the daughters of men, (regardless of what it actually refers to) brought about wickedness and the entire earth was punished for it.  

 

A big part of the Sinaitic laws was separation: eat this, not that; don't mix the materials of your garments, don't mix your seed in your fields; dress diffeently than the nations, worship God differently than the nations-all designed to teach them separation between holy and unholy. 

 

Separation has permeated God's will for mankind since the beginning, and man's insistence in breaking separation keeps bringing about God's discipline against them. Today, the insistence of many that call themselves Christians and churches, to break biblical separation between themselves and the world and sin will bring about the end soon enough. Worldly dress, music, amusements, recreations and desires have permeated Christian thought as well as ecumenical-mindedness, which will bring about the one-world church, which will worship the antichrist.

 

Sorry-kind of went off-topic. Back to the main OP!

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This is changing. Their are mock temples set up where even Hasidic, Sephardic, Mazrahi Jews are practicing temple rituals and sacrifices (without actual animals) in expectation of the rebuilding of the temple. All of the relics, Urim and Thummim, Mitre, etc..have all been recast and remade.

 

And many of the newer followers in America mistake the Torah for the entire OT which is not correct. Properly, the OT is the Tanakh, and the Torah are the first 5 books-Bereishit, Shemot, Vayikra, Bamidbar, and Devarim.

So they remade the Urim and Thummim? Cool! I have always wondered what they were. Anyone know? I know the litersl meaning, lights and perfections, (I believe), and I know that somehow they gained God's will through them, but what were they? Who were they actually used? Anyone? Anyone?

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This is changing. Their are mock temples set up where even Hasidic, Sephardic, Mazrahi Jews are practicing temple rituals and sacrifices (without actual animals) in expectation of the rebuilding of the temple. All of the relics, Urim and Thummim, Mitre, etc..have all been recast and remade.

 

And many of the newer followers in America mistake the Torah for the entire OT which is not correct. Properly, the OT is the Tanakh, and the Torah are the first 5 books-Bereishit, Shemot, Vayikra, Bamidbar, and Devarim.

It's neat you brought this up, as I was talking about the Hasidic community in Brooklyn with my father just this morning. I asked my dad if he knew whether or not they followed all 613 mitzvot, or only the ones that pertain to today. He wasn't sure. It's interesting to learn that temple rituals are being practiced in Hasidism. 

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Do you remember the debate I had with that nutjjob on the 'other' forum over this LOL. Most of the followers of this movement don't understand a lick of Hebrew, or know the difference between translation and transliteration. They insist on using the literal English tetragrammaton, but then spell it backwards LOL

Yes!  That guy was clueless, as are many, many 'wannabes'!

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Of course, the problem with this, is that the Torah, which even the Jews themselves understand to be specifically that which was given at Sinai, including the 10 commandments, was given, what, some 3-4,000 years after creation, meaning it wasn't God's "original message to mankind", but was specifically God's message given to Israel. God's original message, if one wants to be technical, was separation-'eat of all the trees of the garden, except the one in the midst of the garden'-separation has been a primary command of God since Eden, and man insists on breaking it.

 

  The reason for the flood was a breaking of separation-the sons of God with the daughters of men, (regardless of what it actually refers to) brought about wickedness and the entire earth was punished for it.  

 

A big part of the Sinaitic laws was separation: eat this, not that; don't mix the materials of your garments, don't mix your seed in your fields; dress diffeently than the nations, worship God differently than the nations-all designed to teach them separation between holy and unholy. 

 

Separation has permeated God's will for mankind since the beginning, and man's insistence in breaking separation keeps bringing about God's discipline against them. Today, the insistence of many that call themselves Christians and churches, to break biblical separation between themselves and the world and sin will bring about the end soon enough. Worldly dress, music, amusements, recreations and desires have permeated Christian thought as well as ecumenical-mindedness, which will bring about the one-world church, which will worship the antichrist.

 

Sorry-kind of went off-topic. Back to the main OP!

 

Yes, but the morals given in them have not changed.

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Yes, but the morals given in them have not changed.

Here is my take on the Torah. Torah is for everyone. There is something we all can glean from reading the first five books of the Bible. What is not for everyone, however, (not even every Jewish person) is the mitzvot. Jesus said He came to fulfill the law, not abolish it. With that said. Jesus was saying He loved the law, but He came to be the final sacrificial Lamb. He was the ultimate blood sacrifice. His finished work on the cross means that we don't need a high priest to throw blood on the mercy seat to atone for our sins. 

 

Now, when we have the indwelling of the Holy Spirit, there are obviously mitzvahs that we, as Christians, will feel lead to keep. Such as:

 

To know there is a God.

Not to even think there are any other Gods besides Him.

To love Him.

To fear Him.

To emulate His ways.

To not bear a grudge.

To not blaspheme.

To make no graven idols.

To not listen to false prophets.

To not practice divination or medium work.

To repent and confess of wrongdoings.

To not have relations with your father's wife.

To give charity.

To not sit idly by while someone's life is in danger.

 

Some we obviously would not need to keep, such as:

 

To salt all sacrifices.

To not shave your beard or clip the sides of your head.

To not plants greens or grains in a vineyard.

To not eat raisins.

The first shearing of a sheep must be given to a Kohen.

To redeem the firstborn donkey by giving a lamb to a Kohen.

To burn incense every day.

To wear tzitzit on a four-cornered garment.

 

Now, we don't keep these because of any sort of archaic claim to Jewish heritage or to make an idol out of Judaica, but because we love God. We don't follow His ways because it's what redeems us. Christ redeems us. We don't celebrate Passover seders, because Christ is our Passover Lamb. 

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This is funny because the name for Zeus in Greek, is literally Zeus, not Iesous (Jesus). Also, the contemporary translation for Zeus is no longer Zeus in Greek, but Dias.

One of them told me that the Pope underhandedly corrupted the name of Jesus when it was translated into Latin; to which I say, even if it were true, who cares. I don't believe God is concerned with etymology. Nobody believes Jesus is Zeus or vice versa.

 

http://www.plim.org/JesusOrigin.htm

Edited by ASongOfDegrees
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Not eat raisins. Really. Why?

I think it has something to do with kosher rules. A Jewish person is not supposed to eat any grape derived product unless from sowing the seeds to the bottling/packaging, every aspect has been handled by Jews. A Gentile cannot touch any part of the process. That's why they have kosher wines and grape juices specifically for seders. 

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I think this is relevant (but may deserve it's own thread). It is 2 hours and presented by a NONBELIEVER (warning) who in the 1st hour explains pharisees, the Torah, and modern day orthodox Jews. In the 2rd hour he presents an argument for Shem-Tov's Matthew being orginal (predating the Greek Matthew). At some point this stuff will probably have to be "confronted". I gave the description in case you don't want to hear anything a non-believer has to say about this stuff:

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Hi everyone!  I just came back to OB, yesterday.  I know this thread is over a month old, but this is timely for me as well.  I left the Internet b/c, after 6 years, the Messianic Jews haven't stopped their heresy on the web.  They are deluded.  I believe the "Messy Antics" came about in the 1970's via Martin Rosen (Moishe Rosen) who wasn't even a Jew.  Jewish law states that to be a Jew, one must be "halachically" Jewish.  For those who don't know, this means the bloodline is from the maternal side of the family.  This is a manmade law, by the Beis Din, the highest Rabbinal council in Judaism.  It doesn't hold any Biblical merit, whatsoever.  Over 90% of MJ's aren't Jewish by blood.  The ones that are, they parade around in their temples and worship like a god.  They play Jewish dress up, or as another post said, they are "wannabe Jews."  Jews, who go to these temples are out in 3 years max.  They head straight back to Judaism and are stronger than ever.  They go straight to Orthodox - Hasidic shuls or synangoes.  Statistics prove that Messianic Jews don't win people to the Lord.  How could they when they practice heresey.  Statistically speaking, Jews are won to the Lord, by Bible Believing Christians.

Someone mentioned Jews for Jesus.  J4J's are not Messianic Jews.  They do believe in salvation "by grace through faith in Jesus Christ."  However, they have become very weak evangelicals.  Some time ago, Jews also started a counter missionary group called "Jews for Judaism."  It is especially big in Israel.  Also, many Jews believe that MJ's are Christians.  They don't know that MJ's don't believe in the deity of Jesus Christ.  In reality, they are a parasite that attempts to proselytize both Christians and Jews, although they are a cult.  





 

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