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All Preachers Should Have A Conceal Weapon Permit

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Um... what is "to tick the box"?

My venting has offended you because it seems contradictory to now?

If you put the context of one to the other, there is no contradiction. Since the question involved them joining the church, not attending it.

You need to reread the original 2014 thread.

Thanks anyway.

Sure it's contradictory. In your earlier statement you call homosexuals animals, call for people not to have compassion on them, and make a statement to the effect that you want them out of sight. Then in your latest statement you call for people not to focus on condemning sinners.

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Sure it's contradictory. In your earlier statement you call homosexuals animals, call for people not to have compassion on them, and make a statement to the effect that you want them out of sight. Then in your latest statement you call for people not to focus on condemning sinners.

Good grief. Don't you have some body else to pick on today.

Obviously since one subject had to do with JOINING the church, and the other had to do with preaching salvation, that makes it quite different subjects.

Just what is your point?

You want to point out flaws in me? 

Go ahead. Throw the first stone.

Edited by Genevanpreacher

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I don't see how some random guy sneaking into your house at night and raping your wife, or children, like what happened to a girl down the road from me, is a case of martyrdom. 

And even so, if someone busts into your church and starts blowing people away are you saying it's ungodly to fire back if you have a gun? How 'bout if you have a baseball bat and you bash his brains in instead? Is that wrong? Is that really any different than if you blast him with a gun? If he begins to rape your children do you tell them to take it for Jesus? Seems like a man would do all he could to stop that guy. And too bad if he didn't have things right with God. He had his chance before he decided to bust into your home or church and begin to kill and/or rape people.

Still seems like a martyr complex is going on here.

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I don't see how some random guy sneaking into your house at night and raping your wife, or children, like what happened to a girl down the road from me, is a case of martyrdom. 

And even so, if someone busts into your church and starts blowing people away are you saying it's ungodly to fire back if you have a gun? How 'bout if you have a baseball bat and you bash his brains in instead? Is that wrong? Is that really any different than if you blast him with a gun? If he begins to rape your children do you tell them to take it for Jesus? Seems like a man would do all he could to stop that guy. And too bad if he didn't have things right with God. He had his chance before he decided to bust into your home or church and begin to kill and/or rape people.

Still seems like a martyr complex is going on here.

Thats just simply because of the public being inbibed with the notion of 'rights'.

Our rights come from God.

If a proper thinking on defense were common in Christianity, there would be no discussion here about whether we should 'kill' a lost person.

And since you brought It up, just how often do you think something like your scenario really occurs?

And since it hardly ever will, why 'plan' for such?

Living life in fear of something that may never occur in your lifetime seems to be a waste of valuable time.

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I don't see how some random guy sneaking into your house at night and raping your wife, or children, like what happened to a girl down the road from me, is a case of martyrdom. 

And even so, if someone busts into your church and starts blowing people away are you saying it's ungodly to fire back if you have a gun? How 'bout if you have a baseball bat and you bash his brains in instead? Is that wrong? Is that really any different than if you blast him with a gun? If he begins to rape your children do you tell them to take it for Jesus? Seems like a man would do all he could to stop that guy. And too bad if he didn't have things right with God. He had his chance before he decided to bust into your home or church and begin to kill and/or rape people.

Still seems like a martyr complex is going on here.

You live in a violent country which people who  have views like you have created,

Back in the days when we had the death penalty there were few gun crimes, because we had "Joint Responsibility" where if one member of a gang killed someone, they could all be guilty of Murder. This happened in (I think 1947) when a 17 year old, Craig, shot and killed a police officer, Craig was too young to hang, but his accomplice, Bennett who was already captured by the Police was hung.  We had unarmed police at the time.  Today we have Armed Repose Units, Diplomatic Protection Units, and no doubt others as well.  Most police officers now carry Tazers which have been fatal in a number of cases.  Oh for the old days.

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Being a convicted felon, I am not allowed to have a gun in my house, or I go back to prison.

 

No doubt, if someone were to break into my house and I killed that person with a baseball bat, or some other instrument, I would go back to prison.  Oh well, trusting the Lord is far more advantageous than trusting in a weapon anyway.

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Someone is hacking my onlinebaptist  name, using my user name Jerrynumbers, in this forum. Because I did not make the post about that has the user name Jerrynumbers in it.
 
I’ve been reading this tread, and signed in to post a thought. And when I did I saw that someone is using my username, I tried to click on my messages, seems I have a new one from someone, but it will not come up.
 
Seems we Christians are scared to death of death and many of us Christians are scared of death do not believe this verse, but know that no one can kill them and actually get rid of them, for if they get shot and their life leavers their body, if they’re saved, they will continue to live, at Home, in Heaven, which will be much better than this life, living with God and our Savior along with those relatives and friends who have gone Home before us, and their sorrows and tears will be wiped from their face..
 
Php 1:21 ¶ For to me to live is Christ, and to die is gain.
 
Re 21:4 And God shall wipe away all tears from their eyes; and there shall be no more death, neither sorrow, nor crying, neither shall there be any more pain: for the former things are passed away.

 

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And all the while let's ignore the verses that teach that men are responsible for their families. To be spiritual, according to what seems to be the idea of a few men on this thread, means to sit back and let someone who might be lost do whatever they want to anyone they want. So long as you witness to them, it's all okay, because we're going to heaven anyway.

The truth is, not everyone who gets attacked dies. At least not right away. Some live in agony, whether physical or mental, for many years after an attack. But, hey, the Lord protected them, right? Really? Then why did the bad thing happen to them? Simply put: we live in a sin-filled world. And because of that, bad things do happen. Being able to physically "equalize" a situation is in no way not trusting the Lord. Each one of us has to make a decision as to whether or not we will carry a gun, a stun gun, a baseball bat, or a sock filled with coins, etc. Or nothing at all.

That's the beauty of of God leading the individual - including pastors.  It's kinda silly to claim in one breath that having guns comes from the notions of our rights, and then say that our rights come from God. SMH.

The fact of the matter is, we do have the right - even under God - to defend ourselves. I guarantee you that if someone were to come and try to attack me, or my mother, or my nieces while they are under my care, etc., I'm not going to sit back and just pray. Why? Because God has provided a way for me to defend myself and my loved ones (if my hubby is not home...if he is, he'll take care of us, as the Bible instructs men to do). And I'll do that without apology and without sin.

It's a real  shame when folks try to make people who believe that it's okay or even correct to have defense of some sort out to be unspiritual. There is no biblical basis for it. You can use any verses you want to try to paint the person who has a gun as not trusting the Lord, but you don't know the heart of the person. 

If you don't want to attend a church where the pastor has a gun, don't. But don't try to come off as more spiritual because of it. The Pharisees thought they were more spiritual, too.

_______

By all means, apply scripture that you want for your personal reasons, but stop trying to make folks that disagree with your thoughts (in other words, folks that have guns or approve of having them) appear unspiritual.

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. If you guys trust the Lord so thoroughly, there should be no need for doctors and hospitals anymore. And, if it isn't required in your state, might as well drop all your insurance policies too.  :)

 

Edited by heartstrings

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. If you guys trust the Lord so thoroughly, there should be no need for doctors and hospitals anymore. And, if it isn't required in your state, might as well drop all your insurance policies too.  :)

 

Funny thing, I recall Jesus saying that the sick have need of a physician.  Can't find the verse where He said the oppressed need a gun though.

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We see in the sermon on the mount, and other teachings, Jesus astounded the people of His day by His teaching which seemed so different than what they were used to under the OT. Jesus said we are to pray for our enemies, bless them, give them food and drink, not strike back at them, if they rob us to give them even more, if they force us to go with them, go even further, to not seek revenge, to consider them even above our own selves.

We read in the NT of Paul and other Christians having been afflicted by robbers, attackers of various sorts and carrying on by the grace of God, not through force of arms.

One of the hallmarks of Christians for about the first four centuries was their refusal to engage in defensive or offensive fighting or war. We read nothing of Christians using aggression or engaging in war until Constantine adopted Christianity and the Catholic Church rose to prominence and dominated "Christianity". Even from that point to the Reformation there are examples of actual Christians (non-RCC) who remained steadfast in the former teachings and refused to engage in physical battle of any kind. They recognized and followed the biblical recognition that our fight is with spiritual forces, not physical, and God preserved His remnant despite the continual attempts of the RCC and various governmental powers which attempted to exterminate them.

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Ok. I will confess, that I am no more spiritual than anyone here, even if it looks like I am saying that.

If you can show one verse that says a 'man' should take care of his family, in the NT, by using force, by all means do quote the verse HP.

Greater love hath no man than this...that he shoot/stab/beat with a baseball bat, etc., to protect his family?

No.

John 15 -

12 This is my commandment, That ye love one another, as I have loved you.

13 Greater love hath no man than this, that a man lay down his life for his friends.

14 Ye are my friends, if ye do whatsoever I command you.

15 Henceforth I call you not servants; for the servant knoweth not what his lord doeth: but I have called you friends; for all things that I have heard of my Father I have made known unto you.

16 Ye have not chosen me, but I have chosen you, and ordained you, that ye should go and bring forth fruit, and that your fruit should remain: that whatsoever ye shall ask of the Father in my name, he may give it you.

17 These things I command you, that ye love one another.

18 If the world hate you, ye know that it hated me before it hated you.

19 If ye were of the world, the world would love his own: but because ye are not of the world, but I have chosen you out of the world, therefore the world hateth you.

20 Remember the word that I said unto you, The servant is not greater than his lord. If they have persecuted me, they will also persecute you; if they have kept my saying, they will keep yours also.

21 But all these things will they do unto you for my name's sake, because they know not him that sent me.

22 If I had not come and spoken unto them, they had not had sin: but now they have no cloke for their sin.

23 He that hateth me hateth my Father also.

24 If I had not done among them the works which none other man did, they had not had sin: but now have they both seen and hated both me and my Father.

25 But this cometh to pass, that the word might be fulfilled that is written in their law, They hated me without a cause.

26 But when the Comforter is come, whom I will send unto you from the Father, even the Spirit of truth, which proceedeth from the Father, he shall testify of me:

27 And ye also shall bear witness, because ye have been with me from the beginning.

 

No where in these set of verses is defense stated.

The Lord never defended, the disciples never defended, the families of the disciples never defended, Mary, the mother of our Lord, never defended... I could go on.

Where is it stated that a man of God should defend his congregation during a church service, thus needing a conceal and carry permit?

No where.

 

All situations are going to be different, and the Lord knows we can choose to do what he wants us to do, but if I choose to act like the disciples, and Apostles of the Lord in his time here on earth, why do you think I am less faithful to take care of my family than you? (as per - "...if he is, he'll take care of us, as the Bible instructs men to do")

A NT verse reference for that?

What gets me is that most people who say we have the right from God to 'kill' or other harm to someone who is attacking us for our faith, and might kill one of our family, is that they have NO NT verses that say such, but will quote the OT for verses. The problem is that the same people will say that we are not under the Law anymore and refuse ANY references from the OT about other issues.

I am sorry but that screams of hypocrisy.

I DO understand the breaking in verses from the OT, and agree. But when it comes to being in a service of worship? No, I don't see applying the same answer to the service as at your home. If you read the verses about the breaking in to your home in Exodus 22, you will notice that when it was daylight, that there shall be guilt for the murder of the thief.

21 hours ago, heartstrings said:

. If you guys trust the Lord so thoroughly, there should be no need for doctors and hospitals anymore. And, if it isn't required in your state, might as well drop all your insurance policies too.  :)

 

Maybe we already do this. We don't do 'doctors' nor hospitals, and since we have homebirthed 3 out of our 4 children, and homeschooled them all, don't really rely on anyone else. Not bragging, just saying that trusting the Lord has been very successful so far.

22 hours ago, HappyChristian said:

And all the while let's ignore the verses that teach that men are responsible for their families.

By all means, apply scripture that you want for your personal reasons, but stop trying to make folks that disagree with your thoughts (in other words, folks that have guns or approve of having them) appear unspiritual.

Oh yeah, this too.

Let's see some of these verses from the NT?

Edited by Genevanpreacher

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On 10 September 2013, Salyan said:

I don't know... I think we have clear permission to defend ourselves/families in case of attacks by those with evil intent, BUT if the attack is not just a random act of violence, but rather actual persecution for the cause of Christ (like might take place in a church setting), I am not at all sure that we have the right to defend ourselves then.

clear permission? random ? if all things work together for a purpose how could something be random? i dont think 'time and chance' is the same as random.if we retaliate we are acting naturaly if we turn the oher cheek we are acting like a follower of Christ. one will make even and one will bring gloryto Christ.

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On 11 September 2013, Invicta said:

It seems that to many Americans, their gun is their god.

 

The Anabaptists did not fight again st the king when persecuted, in fact they said the sword was to be borne by the magistrate to use as they thought fit.

Some of those Anabaptists just believed and did it, they saw tribulation, and now they shine like stars as a witness. The world and the religious hated them with zeal.

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Wow. I was amazed at the heat this simple question caused. My only answer is "what saith the scriptures?"

When Jesus sent out the disciples he gave them a command: Luke 22:36 "Then said he unto them, But now, he that hath a purse, let him take it, and likewise his scrip: and he that hath no sword, let him sell his garment, and buy one."

My life is worth protecting. My wife's life is worth protecting. My kid's life is worth protecting. My grandkid's lives are worth protecting. My Christian brother's and sister's lives are worth protecting. 

Yes, I have a carry license. In fact I am licensed in 38 states. I teach firearm safety classes. I teach the proper use of firearms. And I carry every time I step out of my house. :) 

church and guns.jpg

church protected by gun.jpg

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19 hours ago, HappyChristian said:

I Timothy 5:8 " But if any provide not for his own, and specially for those of his own house, he hath denied the faith, and is worse than an infidel"

Yep, the context of this verse centers around taking care of widows. But since verses that have been quoted to support the idea that defending oneself with a gun is unbiblical aren't in context, this one will do for defending oneself...with a gun, a bat, or a sock full of coins, etc. Same/same. And, since it's God's Word, the one is quite enough. And "those of his own house" would indicate that is speaking to more than just a widow for whom he is responsible.

A man is to provide for his own - especially those of his own house. Providing doesn't just mean food, clothes, and a roof. Or even Bible teaching and training. There's a whole lot more that goes into taking care of one's family. PROTECTION being one.

And, don't worry, GP - I'm not one who says OT verses don't apply. So if you were intimating that I was being hypocritical, you're wrong. If not, okay.

________

Fine and dandy if folks want to believe that it's not loving for someone to use a gun against someone who has broken into one's home and is in the process of raping or killing a loved one. Doesn't seem to me to be too loving toward one's supposed loved ones, but, hey. It is what it is. The excuse for it would be that God protects. Okay.

Then make sure you don't ever lock your doors. House doors or car doors. Don't lock your windows, either. Because locking doors and windows isn't trusting God to keep bad folks out...

And if you seriously think that someone who is intent on raping or murdering is going to stop and listen to you witness, go for it. 

Accepting being persecuted for your faith is NOT in any way the same as not stopping someone from hurting you or your loved ones.

Neither is it stated anywhere that a pastor cannot carry a gun to protect his flock. After all, he is the undershepherd...and shepherds DO carry things to protect their flocks. David used a rock to protect his sheep...people, who are made in the image of God, are more important than sheep

 

..........and God even gave sheep horns to protect themselves.

 

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19 hours ago, HappyChristian said:

I Timothy 5:8 " But if any provide not for his own, and specially for those of his own house, he hath denied the faith, and is worse than an infidel" [No, I do not agree that this applies at all.]

[Because of this statement.]Yep, the context of this verse centers around taking care of widows. **But since verses that have been quoted to support the idea that defending oneself with a gun is unbiblical aren't in context, this one will do for defending oneself...with a gun, a bat, or a sock full of coins, etc. Same/same. And, since it's God's Word, the one is quite enough. And "those of his own house" would indicate that is speaking to more than just a widow for whom he is responsible.

A man is to provide for his own - especially those of his own house. Providing doesn't just mean food, clothes, and a roof. Or even Bible teaching and training. There's a whole lot more that goes into taking care of one's family. PROTECTION being one.

And, don't worry, GP - I'm not one who says OT verses don't apply. So if you were intimating that I was being hypocritical, you're wrong. If not, okay.

________

Fine and dandy if folks want to believe that it's not loving for someone to use a gun against someone who has broken into one's home and is in the process of raping or killing a loved one. Doesn't seem to me to be too loving toward one's supposed loved ones, but, hey. It is what it is. The excuse for it would be that God protects. Okay.

Then make sure you don't ever lock your doors. House doors or car doors. Don't lock your windows, either. Because locking doors and windows isn't trusting God to keep bad folks out...

And if you seriously think that someone who is intent on raping or murdering is going to stop and listen to you witness, go for it. 

Accepting being persecuted for your faith is NOT in any way the same as not stopping someone from hurting you or your loved ones.

Neither is it stated anywhere that a pastor cannot carry a gun to protect his flock. After all, he is the undershepherd...and shepherds DO carry things to protect their flocks. David used a rock to protect his sheep...people, who are made in the image of God, are more important than sheep. 

 

Ok, I know I might have jumbled a few things in my postings - so here it is finely tuned - I believe in defense in one's home if someone breaks in, that you have the 'right' to defend against that, and if death occurs it is not your fault. But, as the OP was discussing, in the service of God, whether in Church or outside of Church, that it is not a convenient choice that God ok's.

When Paul was being stoned, where were the other believers? 

When Paul was shipped to judgement, why didn't the disciples take off with him when the soldiers let him visit brethren?

When Steven was being stoned, where were the other believers? When James was being beheaded, why was there no uprising by the brethren?

 

And, no HP, I was not talking about you personally, about people's view of the OT verses NT separation.

 

**What verses are you suggesting that do not apply?

 

I do think you are reaching a bit on your last couple of sections though.

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Thanks for the clarification, GP - and I'm glad to see you believe in defense of your home. I, personally, would go one further and say that even outside the physical boundaries of the house, protection is the responsibility of the father. Whether he equips in some way his family to protect themselves or is with them when they leave the home in order to protect them (probably not something that can be done in this society nowadays due to crazy schedules on everyone's parts). And that would include in church, as well, IMO. 

Please note that I never called for any uprising on any believer's part. Let's look at the most recent church shooting. The shooter who entered the church in Charleston did not come in planning to shoot people BECAUSE OF THEIR FAITH. He shot them because of their color. So, being in church was incidental. He simply knew that there would be a number of black people there. So they were not shot as a form of persecution for their faith in Christ (in fact, I do believe that the church was on the liberal side religious belief wise). In that case, had even one of the people there carried, the carnage could have been avoided. It could have been done without killing the shooter, as well - a well-aimed shot at the shoulder of his shooting arm would have decommissioned him nicely. And there would be no uprising. However, after this fellow did the shooting, the haters came to town and tried to create a riot. There is the only uprising that would have happened, had the town not resorted to prayer and praise instead of vengeance. Self-defense is not vengeance. In or out of a church building.

As to verses that don't apply: I never suggested that any didn't apply. I said the verses given were not in context - meaning that the context surrounding the given verses were not at all about a preacher carrying a gun in church. 

Of course you think I'm stretching...you don't agree, so you would think that. That's fine. I'm not sure which parts your think are stretching, but that's okay. Because I think it's all apropos. =D

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1 hour ago, HappyChristian said:

As to verses that don't apply: I never suggested that any didn't apply. I said the verses given were not in context - meaning that the context surrounding the given verses were not at all about a preacher carrying a gun in church. 

Of course you think I'm stretching...you don't agree, so you would think that. That's fine. I'm not sure which parts your think are stretching, but that's okay. Because I think it's all apropos. =D

Yes. But we can disagree in peace. Sorry if I sounded overly defensive. :)

I did have to look up apropos though.

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Just now, Genevanpreacher said:

Yes. But we can disagree in peace. Sorry if I sounded overly defensive. :)

I did have to look up apropos though.

Disagreeing in peace was the purpose of my post from the other day. Too often it seems that Christians (not just on the forum) feel that because they've studied scripture they know all the answers to everything - even things that are not included in scripture. And then they work hard at making it seem as though those who disagree are stupid or unspiritual. Or at least not as spiritual. And it ought not be.

Dictionaries are a wonderful thing. :clap:

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