The Lord’S Intent

[swathdiver]

Hide the biblical songs that glorify God in your heart Donald and you'll have no use for secular music, especially the kind typically found on the radio.

[Donald]

Hello swathdiver

You said.....
“Hide the biblical songs that glorify God in your heart Donald and you'll have no use for secular music, especially the kind typically found on the radio.”
 
This is great advice, that I have followed over the years.
I love and still use that old traditional music at Church and at home(“Power in the blood”, “Are you washed in the blood”), etc.  (Hundreds & hundreds more).
Also, the Church that I am now attending, uses the same kinds of songs in their worship service; And although I never make a bid deal out of it, I very rarely have to open a song book, because I know all of these songs by heart!

 

For the last 20 years at my last pastorate, I was the song leader and we did not have a piano player(even though we has a piano), so we sang all of these songs a-cappella.  I love this music and my mind and heart is filled with it all the time and IT’S GREAT.
------------------------
But the point of these threads, isn’t the fact that occasionally I like to listen to some secular music.

The point is, “calling this practice SIN”, when no one has been able to show me a single Bible verse that tells me it is sin.

The Bible says.......
Psalms 119:11
“Thy word have I hid in mine heart, that I might not sin against thee.”

Your response is a vague reference to this verse; But what does this verse say?
(If we hide GOD’S WORD in our hearts, is will help us NOT TO SIN!)
Can’t you see the point that I am making!?!?

GOD’S WORD, MUST BE OUR “ONLY” SOURCE OF DETERMINING WHAT IS SIN OR EVEN WHAT IS UNWISE!

There are hundreds of things that God’s Word tells us are UNWISE, that are not a sin!
(Can you show me “one single verse”, that tells us that secular music is unwise???)
------------------------
Some have said, that the issue of music should not be included in our list of “gray areas”, because “music is a more complicated subject”!  This has yet been proved by Scripture, but what if it is!

If this subject is so important, WHY DIDN’T GOD SPELL THIS OUT TO US IN HIS WORD?
 

[swathdiver]

Hello swathdiver
 

Can you show me “one single verse”, that tells us that secular music is unwise???

If this subject is so important, WHY DIDN’T GOD SPELL THIS OUT TO US IN HIS WORD?
 

 

Hello,

 

Point one:  No, there are hundreds but here are a few below:

Point Two:  He did.  Several times on this forum I have posted the list of books that my pastor asked me to read when I asked him about music.  They thoroughly show one who earnestly wants to know what God says about music using the King James of course.  My suggestion to you is to search out this list and grab a couple of titles and read them and pray, read them and pray.  You'll eventually see what many of us now see.

 

 

“If any man …consent not to wholesome words, even the words of our Lord Jesus Christ, and to the doctrine which is according to godliness; He is proud, knowing nothing, but doting about questions and strifes of words, whereof cometh envy, strife, railings, evil surmisings, Perverse disputings of men of corrupt minds, and destitute of the truth, supposing that gain is godliness: from such withdraw thyself.” – 1 Timothy 6:3-5

 

“Now I beseech you, brethren, mark them which cause divisions and offences contrary to the doctrine which ye have learned; and avoid them.” – Romans 16:17

 

“Be ye not unequally yoked together with unbelievers: for what fellowship hath righteousness with unrighteousness? and what communion hath light with darkness?” – 2 Corinthians 6:14

 

“Stand fast therefore in the liberty wherewith Christ hath made us free, and be not entangled again with the yoke of bondage.”

 

“Go from the presence of a foolish man, when thou perceivest not in him the lips of knowledge.” – Galatians 5:1

 

“But seek ye first the kingdom of God, and his righteousness;” – Matthew 6:33

 

Most secular music is not scriptural, promotes sin and is contrary to God's Word.  The doctrine of separation commands us to stay away from such so that we protect ourselves from evil.  Do you see Donald how these verses apply to the singer and songs typically played on secular radio and even CCM?  

[John81]

 

 

Most secular music is not scriptural, promotes sin and is contrary to God's Word.  The doctrine of separation commands us to stay away from such so that we protect ourselves from evil.  Do you see Donald how these verses apply to the singer and songs typically played on secular radio and even CCM?  

 

Indeed, MOST, but not ALL secular music is not Scriptural. That still leaves some secular music falling into a "gray area" where some might find some use for music there and others wouldn't. Some could listen to some of that music with no harm while others may not.

 

For instance, some Christians can listen to a patriotic secular song with no harm, but other Christians listen to the same song and their flesh is stirred up, they become filled with pride, sometimes anger and a desire for violence.

 

As with the meats offered to idols issue Paul addressed in First Corinthians, these matters are not always sin or not sin, but rather an area where some need to avoid it because it could lead to sin for them but others can partake with no sin involved.

 

If a Christian likes to listen to some Johnny Horton songs (just an example) who am I to tell them that's sin when those songs don't elicit sin in their lives?

 

There is room for personal preference and liberty in the "gray areas", but at the same time I want to be clear, the "gray areas" are small and the songs which fall into that category are few. You are certainly correct that MOST secular music is not Scriptural.

[robmac68]

How about 2 Peter 1:19-20?

 

Better than hearing from God and Jesus with our own ears, Peter tells us to follow the Scriptures.

 

The Lord also tells us not to trust our hearts and feelings; we are to learn and trust his Word

The 2 greatest commandments are to love the Lord with all our heart and to love our neighbor as ourself.  These 2 great commandemnts are all about the heart and emotion and feeling. 

 

So many seem to want to take the Ten Commandments, read the Bible and add 100 or more "commandments" to a list and then go about obeying the list.  This makes someone more of a legalist than of the true religion of Christ. There was a group of religious people in the Bible that was very good at following a list of commandments but Jesus didn't think too highly of them.

 

And, no, Swathdiver, I am not making an accusation towards you because I quoted you. 

[robmac68]

 

Hello,

 

Point one:  No, there are hundreds but here are a few below:

Point Two:  He did.  Several times on this forum I have posted the list of books that my pastor asked me to read when I asked him about music.  They thoroughly show one who earnestly wants to know what God says about music using the King James of course.  My suggestion to you is to search out this list and grab a couple of titles and read them and pray, read them and pray.  You'll eventually see what many of us now see.

 

 

“If any man …consent not to wholesome words, even the words of our Lord Jesus Christ, and to the doctrine which is according to godliness; He is proud, knowing nothing, but doting about questions and strifes of words, whereof cometh envy, strife, railings, evil surmisings, Perverse disputings of men of corrupt minds, and destitute of the truth, supposing that gain is godliness: from such withdraw thyself.” – 1 Timothy 6:3-5

 

“Now I beseech you, brethren, mark them which cause divisions and offences contrary to the doctrine which ye have learned; and avoid them.” – Romans 16:17

 

“Be ye not unequally yoked together with unbelievers: for what fellowship hath righteousness with unrighteousness? and what communion hath light with darkness?” – 2 Corinthians 6:14

 

“Stand fast therefore in the liberty wherewith Christ hath made us free, and be not entangled again with the yoke of bondage.”

 

“Go from the presence of a foolish man, when thou perceivest not in him the lips of knowledge.” – Galatians 5:1

 

“But seek ye first the kingdom of God, and his righteousness;” – Matthew 6:33

 

Most secular music is not scriptural, promotes sin and is contrary to God's Word.  The doctrine of separation commands us to stay away from such so that we protect ourselves from evil.  Do you see Donald how these verses apply to the singer and songs typically played on secular radio and even CCM?  

 

Reading these verses you quoted, followed by your last paragraph, I hope you live in the woods away from everyone, do not work outside the church, do not have a TV or read a newspaper. 

[JerryNumbers]

Why use something that has, secular stuff,  nothing whatsoever to do with Christ to relax & rest? Why not relax & rest in the Lord, that's were we should be the happiest.

 

So many seems to leave Christ out when it comes to vacations, relaxing, resting, hobbies, taking time off & or when we step out the door leaving church services. Whey would a child of God want to take time off from Christ? Shouldn't we want Jesus to live in us every moment of our life?

 

Ga 2:20 I am crucified with Christ: nevertheless I live; yet not I, but Christ liveth in me: and the life which I now live in the flesh I live by the faith of the Son of God, who loved me, and gave himself for me.

 

Ps 18:2 The LORD is my rock, and my fortress, and my deliverer; my God, my strength, in whom I will trust; my buckler, and the horn of my salvation, and my high tower.

[Steve Schwenke]

I only have a second to post this right now, but.....

I wanted to make it CLEAR, that none of what I have been saying, is concerning “MUSIC USED IN MINISTRY”, or Church music.
------------------------
When we are ministering to others(or being ministered to ourselves), it is very important that Biblical, Christ centered music be used.........
2 Kings 3:10-15
V.10 And the king of Israel said, Alas! that the LORD hath called these three kings together, to deliver them into the hand of Moab!
V.11 But Jehoshaphat said, [is there] not here a prophet of the LORD, that we may enquire of the LORD by him? And one of the king of Israel’s servants answered and said, Here [is] Elisha the son of Shaphat, which poured water on the hands of Elijah.
V.12 And Jehoshaphat said, The word of the LORD is with him. So the king of Israel and Jehoshaphat and the king of Edom went down to him.
V.13 And Elisha said unto the king of Israel, What have I to do with thee? get thee to the prophets of thy father, and to the prophets of thy mother. And the king of Israel said unto him, Nay: for the LORD hath called these three kings together, to deliver them into the hand of Moab.
V.14 And Elisha said, [As] the LORD of hosts liveth, before whom I stand, surely, were it not that I regard the presence of Jehoshaphat the king of Judah, I would not look toward thee, nor see thee.
V.15 But now bring me a minstrel. And it came to pass, when the minstrel played, that the hand of the LORD came upon him.
------------------------
I have only been talking about, music that WE listen to, as a diversion and to relax.
I personally believe that human beings, physically and emotionally need these times of relaxation.
 

So then you are advocating a DOUBLE STANDARD. 

This is what your congregation and your advocates are hearing:

When we are at church we should only sing these songs.......

BUT

When we are at home or in the car, it is acceptable to listen these other songs.

Just as long as we sing the "right" songs at church, then everything is OKEY-DOKEY....

 

Hypocrisy.  double standards.  Confusion. 

 

I also believe that we need diversion and relaxation, but I also believe that we should not give ourselves over to the lusts of the flesh in so doing.  Rock music is nothing but flesh.  We are to walk after the Spirit, not after the flesh.  (Gal. 5:16ff)

 

In Christ,

[Steve Schwenke]

------------------------
But the point of these threads, isn’t the fact that occasionally I like to listen to some secular music.

The point is, “calling this practice SIN”, when no one has been able to show me a single Bible verse that tells me it is sin.

The Bible says.......
Psalms 119:11
“Thy word have I hid in mine heart, that I might not sin against thee.”

Your response is a vague reference to this verse; But what does this verse say?
(If we hide GOD’S WORD in our hearts, is will help us NOT TO SIN!)
Can’t you see the point that I am making!?!?

GOD’S WORD, MUST BE OUR “ONLY” SOURCE OF DETERMINING WHAT IS SIN OR EVEN WHAT IS UNWISE!

There are hundreds of things that God’s Word tells us are UNWISE, that are not a sin!
(Can you show me “one single verse”, that tells us that secular music is unwise???)
------------------------
Some have said, that the issue of music should not be included in our list of “gray areas”, because “music is a more complicated subject”!  This has yet been proved by Scripture, but what if it is!

If this subject is so important, WHY DIDN’T GOD SPELL THIS OUT TO US IN HIS WORD?
 

Donald, again, we have come full circle.  You want the ONE VERSE to tell you something is sin.  But you are not willing to do any STUDYING on the subject (or so it seems.) 

For the life of me, I cannot understand what your objections are to a comprehensive study of the subject.   We are supposed to STUDY, aren't we???

 

Now, there is an entire section of this forum devoted to the subject of music.  In that section we have had several heated debates on the subject, and in those debates some people have given several resources that can help in your understanding of music, and broaden your Biblical view of music.

 

I can tell you this much:

1.  Music always ends up as a vehicle of worship

2.  Music was created to worship the Lord - Rev. 4:11, Job 38:7, Ezek. 28:13, and a whole host of other verses, in fact the entire book of Psalms

3.  Man corrupted music and used to worship himself - this is illustrated for us in I Sam 18:6-7.   The women were not worshipping the Lord for the defeat of the Philistines, as they did in Exo. 15.  Nope, they were praising SAUL and DAVID - men! 

This is where all of the pop "romance" and "soft rock" songs end up - worshipping that "one and only true love"

4.  The Devil corrupted music and uses it in the worship of false gods - Daniel 3:1-7

 

Anytime we as human beings try to take God's creation, and redirect it for our own benefit while ignoring the Lord our Saviour, then it ends up being given over to the devil.     That is exactly what happened with music when we mixed in the African beat that was used in pagan idol worship.  Rock music is demonic BY NATURE.  If you doubt me, just check out the people who are producing the albums.  Not only are many of the performers given over to New Age occultism and demonism, but the PRODUCERS are even more so. 

 

And we can NEVER forget the universal rule that our Saviour Jesus Christ gave to us:

Matthew 12:34 O generation of vipers, how can ye, being evil, speak good things? for out of the abundance of the heart the mouth speaketh.

 

They write trash because that is all that is in their hearts.  They write "clean" songs to HOOK YOU into their trash.   And they do it ON PURPOSE to lure you into their trash.  They have an agenda, and their agenda is ANTI CHRIST and ANTI BIBLE. 

 

Now that is about all I am going to say about music here.  If you want to know more (and apparently YOU DON"T), then read those other debates, get some books, and do a comprehensive study of the subject.  Don't just sit there demanding ONE SINGLE VERSE, and then pretend that you can listen to the devil's music because "NOBODY SHOWED ME ONE VERSE."   Grow up a little bit (Heb. 5:12-14!), and DIG INTO THE SCRIPTURE.

 

Proverbs 25:2 It is the glory of God to conceal a thing: but the honour of kings is to search out a matter.

 

Just because the Lord didn't lay out your one little verse for you doesn't mean He didn't speak on the matter.  The Bible is a Book that must speak to ALL generations in ALL cultures, in ALL countries for ALL time.  That means that in some cases, we are going to have to do a little bit of "homework" to get our answers.  The Lord most CERTAINLY DID speak on the matter, but He requires YOU to study it out!!!  He did not "spell it out" for a reason! 

 

Thus, the Biblical admonition:

2 Timothy 2:15 Study to shew thyself approved unto God, a workman that needeth not to be ashamed, rightly dividing the word of truth.

Yep - real study takes WORK.  But if you don't study, and don't do the work, you will not be approved by God!!!

 

And, the Biblical approach to study:

Isa 28:9 ¶ Whom shall he teach knowledge? and whom shall he make to understand doctrine? them that are weaned from the milk, and drawn from the breasts.
Isa 28:10 For precept must be upon precept, precept upon precept; line upon line, line upon line; here a little, and there a little:
Isa 28:11 For with stammering lips and another tongue will he speak to this people.
Isa 28:12 To whom he said, This is the rest wherewith ye may cause the weary to rest; and this is the refreshing: yet they would not hear.
Isa 28:13 But the word of the LORD was unto them precept upon precept, precept upon precept; line upon line, line upon line; here a little, and there a little; that they might go, and fall backward, and be broken, and snared, and taken.
 

Thus:

1.  Spiritual babies are not going to be able to handle doctrine (see II Tim. 2:15 and Heb. 5:12-14!)

2.  Doctrinal matters are built upon foundational precepts (the principles I referred to earlier!), we add "line upon line" to those principles, and then we find supports throughout the Bible. 

Therefore, we will not find ONE SINGLE VERSE that has a direct answer to all of our questions.  In some matters, it will take time to dig out the working principles, add to those principles, and find supports for those principles scattered across the pages of Scripture.

3.  The Lord is going to speak to His people in a language they don't always understand. 

The reason for this is given in v. 13 - the people who don't want the truth won't dig for it.  As a result, they will continue on in their delusion, and be destroyed in the deception they brought upon themselves.  If they had WORKED at it, they would have seen the truth. 

It is important to note here that the Lord PURPOSEFULLY hid the truth from these self-deluded fools.  The ones who want the truth will go to HIM to get it!  (See Matthew 13:10-18!)

 

But those who really want the truth will do what Solomon said:

Pr 2:1 ¶ My son, if thou wilt receive my words, and hide my commandments with thee;
Pr 2:2 So that thou incline thine ear unto wisdom, and apply thine heart to understanding;
Pr 2:3 Yea, if thou criest after knowledge, and liftest up thy voice for understanding;
Pr 2:4 If thou seekest her as silver, and searchest for her as for hid treasures;
Pr 2:5 Then shalt thou understand the fear of the LORD, and find the knowledge of God.
Pr 2:6 For the LORD giveth wisdom: out of his mouth cometh knowledge and understanding.
Pr 2:7 He layeth up sound wisdom for the righteous: he is a buckler to them that walk uprightly.
Pr 2:8 He keepeth the paths of judgment, and preserveth the way of his saints.
Pr 2:9 Then shalt thou understand righteousness, and judgment, and equity; yea, every good path.

 

If you really want the truth, you won't be looking for it ON THE SURFACE.   We know that as a general rule, gold nuggets are not just laying around on the top of the soil.  You have to dig an entire mine to get to the gold.  And that is the illustration the Lord used to help us understand how much effort we will have to give in order to obtain wisdom and understanding from the Lord. 

 

So, put your work gloves on, and be prepared to get a few blisters on your hands and feet (and knees!)....

Otherwise, you can just continue on in your deception.

 

I am done here....moving on....

 

In Christ,

[JerryNumbers]

Indeed, MOST, but not ALL secular music is not Scriptural. That still leaves some secular music falling into a "gray area" where some might find some use for music there and others wouldn't. Some could listen to some of that music with no harm while others may not.

 

For instance, some Christians can listen to a patriotic secular song with no harm, but other Christians listen to the same song and their flesh is stirred up, they become filled with pride, sometimes anger and a desire for violence.

 

As with the meats offered to idols issue Paul addressed in First Corinthians, these matters are not always sin or not sin, but rather an area where some need to avoid it because it could lead to sin for them but others can partake with no sin involved.

 

If a Christian likes to listen to some Johnny Horton songs (just an example) who am I to tell them that's sin when those songs don't elicit sin in their lives?

 

There is room for personal preference and liberty in the "gray areas", but at the same time I want to be clear, the "gray areas" are small and the songs which fall into that category are few. You are certainly correct that MOST secular music is not Scriptural.

 

No, it seems to me some feel they have to take a vacation from God, get Him out of their mind. Now why would a child of God ever feel that way? My answer is that there's many that believes they can leave God out of certain parts of their life, yet if they truly love Him they will not want to leave Him out the lest bit.

[JerryNumbers]

So then you are advocating a DOUBLE STANDARD. 

This is what your congregation and your advocates are hearing:

When we are at church we should only sing these songs.......

BUT

When we are at home or in the car, it is acceptable to listen these other songs.

Just as long as we sing the "right" songs at church, then everything is OKEY-DOKEY....

 

Hypocrisy.  double standards.  Confusion. 

 

I also believe that we need diversion and relaxation, but I also believe that we should not give ourselves over to the lusts of the flesh in so doing.  Rock music is nothing but flesh.  We are to walk after the Spirit, not after the flesh.  (Gal. 5:16ff)

 

In Christ,

 

Boy, there's much of that.

 

Sometime back a lady at our churches daughter's husband killed himself & they live several miles north of us in an even smaller town. I attended the funeral services held at a Baptist church. I don't recall how many songs they had, several, yet two of them were country western songs. Setting there thinking about him killing himself during the time those two songs were being played I was thinking. That was the type song he was probably listening to when he was doing his drinking building up his courage to raise the gun to his head & shoot. And probably the only kind of music him & wife, his wife attends church teaching children listen to away from church.

 

This man a veteran of Vietnam i had met & talked with a few times. Yet I did not have a good view of what kind of person he was until his death. I found out from some that knew him that he drank, drank, & drank all the time, mostly by himself. I feel sure putting all of that depressant in his body while listening to those country songs gave him no hope at all except by putting a bullet in his head.

 

Everyone of us saved people have way to much Hypocrisy & double standards in our life's without adding to it with secular music & alcohol  giving a bad influence, witness, to those that are lost & have not the 'Blessed Hope.'  

 

Another sad thing about this event his son, about 32 -35, was not far from him when the gun went off, so his son hearing the shot went to see what was going on, he found his father laying in his pickup truck shot in the head with a shotgun. he was still alive, called 911, & from what was said he was still breathing when he was flown to the hospital, but he hardly had any face left. They had him on life support but even that could not keep him alive.

 

At the funeral the pastor spoke about the Sunday he got saved back in the 80's. Yet his life never gave any evidence of having been saved, His favorite pass time was to take off in his pickup with only the bottle, more especially during deer season.

 

In a way I feels that family & friends may have let this man down by having way to much 'Hypocrisy & Double Standards' in their life, that we are just not consistent enough with our Lord for people such as him to see the faith we have in our Lord. Yet too I feel sure that he probably suppressed any talk about the good Lord whenever he was around.

[John81]

No, it seems to me some feel they have to take a vacation from God, get Him out of their mind. Now why would a child of God ever feel that way? My answer is that there's many that believes they can leave God out of certain parts of their life, yet if they truly love Him they will not want to leave Him out the lest bit.

That's a different subject, but I do agree that one should not even want a vacation from God, let alone actually taking one. I've heard of a few pastors who take vacations far from home so they can leave all that "religion" behind for a few days or weeks. They talk of the freedom and relaxation of not having to read the Word each day, hearing music other than hymns, not having to preach, and being able to "be themselves" because no one around knows they are a pastor. How sad!

[JerryNumbers]

That's a different subject, but I do agree that one should not even want a vacation from God, let alone actually taking one. I've heard of a few pastors who take vacations far from home so they can leave all that "religion" behind for a few days or weeks. They talk of the freedom and relaxation of not having to read the Word each day, hearing music other than hymns, not having to preach, and being able to "be themselves" because no one around knows they are a pastor. How sad!

 

 

There's many that vacations from God, many do so from Sunday evening till Sunday morning of the next week every week & during that week never let anything about God enter their mind unless its by accident

 

Them there's some that do so from Sunday evening till Wednesday evening, them once again from Wednesday evening till Sunday morning

 

Others do so from holiday to holiday, for they never enter a church until a holiday comes along.

 

And even others do so year in & year out yet claim to be a child of God while loving Jesus.

 

So in reality it is not a different subject, they love the worldly stuff more than godly stuff. 

[John81]

Back in the 90s a couple Christians I knew once actually said to me that "everything doesn't have to be about God and Jesus" and "we don't have to talk about the Bible all the time, we can just talk about and do regular things". They said many other statements similar to that. It was obvious to me and a friend of mine these two were beginning to wonder off the straight and narrow and in danger of outright backsliding but they wouldn't hear of it. Sure enough, it wasn't long before they were "Sunday Christians" and then they became "some Sunday Christians". The last I saw them there was little evidence at all in their lives that they were Christians.

 

I want more of Jesus in my life, more of the Word, not less.

[JerryNumbers]

Back in the 90s a couple Christians I knew once actually said to me that "everything doesn't have to be about God and Jesus" and "we don't have to talk about the Bible all the time, we can just talk about and do regular things". They said many other statements similar to that. It was obvious to me and a friend of mine these two were beginning to wonder off the straight and narrow and in danger of outright backsliding but they wouldn't hear of it. Sure enough, it wasn't long before they were "Sunday Christians" and then they became "some Sunday Christians". The last I saw them there was little evidence at all in their lives that they were Christians.

 

I want more of Jesus in my life, more of the Word, not less.

 

That seems to happen to many, they just do not have any thirst for the Word of God, & living life is all about them. 

they're selfish, & do not allow Jesus to live thought them.