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Early Church Fathers Were Premillennial, Pre-Tribulation Rapture

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Contrary to the falsehood being spread, the pre-tribulation rapture doctrine was not "cooked-up" by Darby in 1830.

The early church fathers followed the Apostle Paul's teaching.  When Christianity was adopted as the State Religion,

such ideas were dismissed as they conflicted with the absolute authority of the Roman Emperor and were considered

to be the cause of "discord" among the citizens of the Roman Empire, so Amillennialsim and  "spiritualization" of Scripture

were "cooked-up" for the Catholic Church and then adopted by the Protestant "Reformers".

 

Papias (60-130)

Clement of Rome (90-100)

The Sherpherd of Hermas (96-150)

Ignatius of Antioch (98-117)

Barnabas (100)

The Didache (100-160)

Justin Martyr (110-165)

The Epistle of Barnabas (117-138)

Irenaeus (120-202)

Tertullian (145-220)

Hippolytus (185-236)

Cyprian (200-250)

Lactantius (260-330)

 

http://www.essentialchristianity.com/pages.asp?pageid=21918

 

Edited by beameup

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The problem with the "church fathers" is the question of whether or not they are reliable about anything. We can't denounce them on 99 points and then turn around and site them as a sound source for point 100.

 

Most Baptists reject the "church fathers" as being "fathers" or reliable sources.

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Honestly, I wouldn't care what they were. There's a false assumption that they knew more of the truth because they were part of the early church but this isn't so. Also, there's a false assumption that they knew all the truth because they were part of the early church. Nothing to support this but pure conjecture. 

 

 

The only reason I would point out what they believe is to expose another false assumption, that John Darby "invented" pretribulationalism and the rapture. It's in the bible no matter who "invented" the doctrine.

Edited by ASongOfDegrees

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Though things like this are interesting to show that the Pre-Trib/Mil teaching isn't something new, I have to agree with John and ASOD...

 

Don't get me wrong; I'm Pre-Mil and Pre-Trib, but just because the early "fathers" or early "church" believed something, that doesn't make it gospel.

 

You can't get "too" much earlier than the church at Thessalonica, yet they were caught up in a false belief about this very thing.  They believed a false letter supposedly authored by Paul; therefore, the "early church" at Thessalonica held to a false teaching until Paul cleared the matter up.

 

I've seen too many examples of people using "the early church believed this" to prove a point.  I don't care what the early church believed if it doesn't agree with scripture.

 

No offense intended beameup!

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I doubt the OP's point was the inaccuracy of the early church folks. The OPs point is disputing the main argument of the preterist and amil handfuls out there that these Bible truths were recent beliefs by born again folks. When the real truth is that their beliefs were imagined by the RCC.

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It is interesting that no one commented on this:

 

 

 

When Christianity was adopted as the State Religion, such ideas were dismissed as they conflicted with the absolute authority of the Roman Emperor and were considered to be the cause of "discord" among the citizens of the Roman Empire, so Amillennialsim and "spiritualization" of Scripture were "cooked-up" for the Catholic Church and then adopted by the Protestant "Reformers".

 

There is very clear evidence that Origen (Church Father) "cooked-up" the spiritualization of scripture (ie: allegorical, symbolic) and

Augustine of Hippo (Church Father) "cooked-up" replacement theology (Israel replaced by "spiritual Israel" the Church)

for precisely the reasons mentioned.

Shall we jump to the conclusion that these "Church Fathers" are irrelevant as well?  You do realize that some of the names

that I listed were discipled by the Apostles or first-generation church leaders mentioned in the New Testament (implying

that the Apostles were heretical).

 

For example, Papias was a disciple of John (writer of the gospel and Revelation).  Does the name Barnabas sound familiar?

Edited by beameup

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"And I looked, and behold a white cloud, and upon the cloud one sat like unto the Son of man, having on his head a golden crown, and in his hand a sharp sickle. And another angel came out of the temple, crying with a loud voice to him that sat on the cloud, Thrust in thy sickle, and reap: for the time is come for thee to reap; for the harvest of the earth is ripe. And he that sat on the cloud thrust in his sickle on the earth; and the earth was reaped.

 And another angel came out of the temple which is in heaven, he also having a sharp sickle. And another angel came out from the altar, which had power over fire; and cried with a loud cry to him that had the sharp sickle, saying, Thrust in thy sharp sickle, and gather the clusters of the vine of the earth; for her grapes are fully ripe. And the angel thrust in his sickle into the earth, and gathered the vine of the earth, and cast it into the great winepress of the wrath of God. And the winepress was trodden without the city, and blood came out of the winepress, even unto the horse bridles, by the space of a thousand and six hundred furlongs."  (Rev 14:14-20)

 

What is this event that occurs just prior to the outpouring of God's wrath?

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"And I looked, and behold a white cloud, and upon the cloud one sat like unto the Son of man, having on his head a golden crown, and in his hand a sharp sickle. And another angel came out of the temple, crying with a loud voice to him that sat on the cloud, Thrust in thy sickle, and reap: for the time is come for thee to reap; for the harvest of the earth is ripe. And he that sat on the cloud thrust in his sickle on the earth; and the earth was reaped.

  (Rev 14:14-20)

 

What is this event that occurs just prior to the outpouring of God's wrath?

The Bride of Christ is the "firstfruits" harvested at the Rapture.  Next is the Main "Harvest" of souls during the first 1/2 of the Tribulation. 

The Next 3 1/2 years is punishment/wrath, however, there will be a few "gleanings" that will survive the wrath and live into the Millennium.

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How does this fit in all this?

 

2 Thessalonians 2:1-4

 

Now we beseech you, brethren, by the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, and by our gathering together unto him,

That ye be not soon shaken in mind, or be troubled, neither by spirit, nor by word, nor by letter as from us, as that the day of Christ is at hand.

Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition;

Who opposeth and exalteth himself above all that is called God, or that is worshipped; so that he as God sitteth in the temple of God, shewing himself that he is God.

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How does this fit in all this?

 

2 Thessalonians 2:1-4

 

Now we beseech you, brethren, by the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, and by our gathering together unto him,

That ye be not soon shaken in mind, or be troubled, neither by spirit, nor by word, nor by letter as from us, as that the day of Christ is at hand.

Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition;

Who opposeth and exalteth himself above all that is called God, or that is worshipped; so that he as God sitteth in the temple of God, shewing himself that he is God.

 

"falling away" should have been translated "departure" as was the case in the five English translations prior to the King James.

Thus it would indicate a "departure" of the Saints (harpazo) as well as a "departure" to a different Gospel (Antichrist, "the Lie").

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The Bride of Christ is the "firstfruits" harvested at the Rapture.  Next is the Main "Harvest" of souls during the first 1/2 of the Tribulation. 

The Next 3 1/2 years is punishment/wrath, however, there will be a few "gleanings" that will survive the wrath and live into the Millennium.

Show me in scripture where this 'firstruits' harvest takes place.  The one in Rev 14 is so amazingly clear as to what it is, yet we don't see the first. And please don't direct me to Rev 4:1, because this very specifically is pertaining only to John, no one else.

 

As for the 'gleanings', that's no rapture-it is those from the nations of the world who are allowed to phisically live into the kingdom-no born-again believers will go through the wrath of God.

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Have we - amillennialists & preterists - asserted that that the premil, pretrib teaching was invented around 1800 ???

 

No - it is the Darby system of dispensationalism that is the recent invention. The writer of the article cited has misquoted his opponents so he can refute what he says we assert. It's an effective tactic that encourages disps but will not convince us.

 

I have the same problem - it is claimed that preterism was invented by the Jesuits to "prove" that the Pope was not antichrist, as was obvious from the way the RCs persecuted Christians.

 

But - there are different ways at reading Scripture - Scripture teaches the removal of the saints (from Jerusalem 3 1/2 years before the ad 70 destruction) before the great tribulation before the coming of Jesus to destroy those husbandmen who rejected him, so that following the AD 70 destruction the millennium began. It's church history - but fulfilled prophecy is no use for teachers who want to show their new insights - or for those who want to make their fortune from prophecy fiction.

 

Mark 12:But those husbandmen said among themselves, This is the heir; come, let us kill him, and the inheritance shall be ours.'

And they took him, and killed him, and cast him out of the vineyard.

What shall therefore the lord of the vineyard do? he will come and destroy the husbandmen, and will give the vineyard unto others.

10 And have ye not read this scripture; The stone which the builders rejected is become the head of the corner:

11 This was the Lord's doing, and it is marvellous in our eyes?

12 And they sought to lay hold on him, but feared the people: for they knew that he had spoken the parable against them: and they left him, and went their way.

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"falling away" should have been translated "departure" as was the case in the five English translations prior to the King James.

Thus it would indicate a "departure" of the Saints (harpazo) as well as a "departure" to a different Gospel (Antichrist, "the Lie").

 

Rubbish.  Departure refers to the departure from the faith which occurred gradually in the church and ended up with full grown papism.  The mystery of iniquity which had already begun.  

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Have we - amillennialists & preterists - asserted that that the premil, pretrib teaching was invented around 1800 ???

 

I am not a-mil or preterist, but my studies have shown that the pre trib teaching was invented about that time.  Pre-mil is something completely different and is now usually associated with pre trib although it wass not preveiously.

 

No - it is the Darby system of dispensationalism that is the recent invention. The writer of the article cited has misquoted his opponents so he can refute what he says we assert. It's an effective tactic that encourages disps but will not convince us.

 

Agreed

 

I have the same problem - it is claimed that preterism was invented by the Jesuits to "prove" that the Pope was not antichrist, as was obvious from the way the RCs persecuted Christians.

 

It is documented that preterism was invented, or at least, strongly advocated by the Jesuit Alcazar.  It is said that some of the writings of Victorianus suggested a pre mil teaching, but it seems that these writings were adulterated by later writers, or as we say today, were hacked.

But - there are different ways at reading Scripture - Scripture teaches the removal of the saints (from Jerusalem 3 1/2 years before the ad 70 destruction) before the great tribulation before the coming of Jesus to destroy those husbandmen who rejected him, so that following the AD 70 destruction the millennium began. It's church history - Agreed, scriptuure plainly teaches that. but fulfilled prophecy is no use for teachers who want to show their new insights - or for those who want to make their fortune from prophecy fiction.

 

Mark 12:But those husbandmen said among themselves, This is the heir; come, let us kill him, and the inheritance shall be ours.'

And they took him, and killed him, and cast him out of the vineyard.

What shall therefore the lord of the vineyard do? he will come and destroy the husbandmen, and will give the vineyard unto others.

10 And have ye not read this scripture; The stone which the builders rejected is become the head of the corner:

11 This was the Lord's doing, and it is marvellous in our eyes?

12 And they sought to lay hold on him, but feared the people: for they knew that he had spoken the parable against them: and they left him, and went their way.

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How does this fit in all this?

 

2 Thessalonians 2:1-4

 

Now we beseech you, brethren, by the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, and by our gathering together unto him,

That ye be not soon shaken in mind, or be troubled, neither by spirit, nor by word, nor by letter as from us, as that the day of Christ is at hand.

Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition;

Who opposeth and exalteth himself above all that is called God, or that is worshipped; so that he as God sitteth in the temple of God, shewing himself that he is God.

 

Can anyone explain just what this means, the timing, and how this piece fits into the end times puzzle?

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Can anyone explain just what this means, the timing, and how this piece fits into the end times puzzle?

When the Bride of Christ ("Church") is taken to meet Jesus "in the air" and taken to heaven,

and the indwelling Holy Spirit simultaneously removed, Satan and his angels will be cast to the earth.

It's all a matter of "timing".  It could happen at any moment.  Time is short.

Edited by beameup

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Not sure-did anyone go into the temple in 70ad and declare themself God?

Sorry, I'm confused. I asked the question regarding those verses with a totally open mind wondering what the answer is. I don't already have a view on this so I need some detail and/or context.

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When the Bride of Christ ("Church") is taken to meet Jesus "in the air" and taken to heaven,

and the indwelling Holy Spirit simultaneously removed, Satan and his angels will be cast to the earth.

It's all a matter of "timing".  It could happen at any moment.  Time is short.

You are saying 2 Thessalonians 2:1-4 is referring to the rapture?

 

Is the rest of what you mentioned in those verses somewhere or something from other Scripture you are using to help establish timing?

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You are saying 2 Thessalonians 2:1-4 is referring to the rapture?

 

Is the rest of what you mentioned in those verses somewhere or something from other Scripture you are using to help establish timing?

That section of scripture goes through vs. 12.

Compare scripture with scripture, rightly dividing,

and be filled with the H.S. as you do.  1 Thes 4:13-18

 

PS: you need to stick with Paul, as to him was revealed

the "mystery" of the Church - "the bride of Christ".

Edited by beameup

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That section of scripture goes through vs. 12.

Compare scripture with scripture, rightly dividing,

and be filled with the H.S. as you do.  1 Thes 4:13-18

 

PS: you need to stick with Paul, as to him was revealed

the "mystery" of the Church - "the bride of Christ".

Do you believe this is speaking of the rapture?

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"caught up (harpazo) together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air[from 1 Thes 4:17 KJV]

 

harpazo - to (violently) snatch out or away

harpazo is rendered rapturo in the Latin Vulgate

Note that it is "in the air" not upon the earth. This is not the "second coming" where Jesus returns TO the earth.

 

 

And when they were come up out of the water, the Spirit of the Lord caught away (harpazo)
Philip, that the eunuch saw him no more: and he went on his way rejoicing. Acts 8:39
Edited by beameup

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