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Absent From The Body Present With The Lord....dead In Christ Shall Rise


Jesuspaiditall4all

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Lazarus was carried by the angels to "Abraham's bosom" ...the rich man died and was buried (Luke 16:22).  Abraham's bosom refers to a place OF paradise (not paradise itself) where believing Jews rested after death.  There was a great gulf fixed between Abraham's bosom and hell (Luke 16:26). 

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I didn't say there were two "paradises".  There is only one paradise and one place that was called "Abraham's bosom", which is not paradise, but a place where believing Jews rested after death, before the resurrection of Christ.  Does one rest in hell?  Paradise has always been  located in the third heaven (2 Cor. 12:2-4).  When was "paradise" moved?

 

2 Corinthians 12:2 I knew a man in Christ above fourteen years ago, (whether in the body, I cannot tell; or whether out of the body, I cannot tell: God knoweth;) such an one caught up to the third heaven.
2 Corinthians 12:3 And I knew such a man, (whether in the body, or out of the body, I cannot tell: God knoweth;)
2 Corinthians 12:4 How that he was caught up into paradise, and heard unspeakable words, which it is not lawful for a man to utter.

 

Salyan, why do you say we are off topic?

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I didn't say there were two "paradises".  There is only one paradise and one place that was called "Abraham's bosom", which is not paradise, but a place where believing Jews rested after death, before the resurrection of Christ.  Does one rest in hell?  Paradise has always been  located in the third heaven (2 Cor. 12:2-4).  When was "paradise" moved?

 

2 Corinthians 12:2 I knew a man in Christ above fourteen years ago, (whether in the body, I cannot tell; or whether out of the body, I cannot tell: God knoweth;) such an one caught up to the third heaven.
2 Corinthians 12:3 And I knew such a man, (whether in the body, or out of the body, I cannot tell: God knoweth;)
2 Corinthians 12:4 How that he was caught up into paradise, and heard unspeakable words, which it is not lawful for a man to utter.

 

Salyan, why do you say we are off topic?

 

I agree that there may not be two paradises, but what about the place Paul was caught up into (2 Cor. 12:4) , was that not paradise?  If so, it is not the same as the paradise Jesus spoke of on the cross, or is it? Lk. 23:43) if so,  It cannot be hades then.

 

I have to agree with SFIC this time.

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Doesn't the Bible say that Christ was in the heart of the earth? Thus paradise/Abraham's bosom/Hades had to be in the middle of the earth, rather than up in heaven.  Also, doctrinally wouldn't there be issues with believers saved by faith being in heaven when Christ had not yet died on the cross.

The lower parts of the earth MAY refer to the grave (Eph 4:9).  Remember the graves were opened and people were seen walking around after Christ's resurrection.  Leading "captivity captive" could refer to lost people being set free from the clutches of Satan (saved).  Why preach to those in hell, when it's too late to repent?

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I believe Christ preached to the righteous dead who, by faith received a good report. He had to free them from the grave, the chains of death... not from the torments of hell.

Preaching to those in torment would have been fruitless. They made their choice in life.

Luke 16:25 (KJV) 25 But Abraham said, Son, remember that thou in thy lifetime receivedst thy good things, and likewise Lazarus evil things: but now he is comforted, and thou art tormented.

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I am not sure if this has already been discussed here anywhere, but if it has I am sorry I missed it.

 

This has been a puzzling area for me and I would love to read and receive some insight on it.  It's regarding being a Christian and passing on versus the Resurrection.  
 

 

2 Corinthians 5:8 (KJV 1900)

8 We are confident, I say, and willing rather to be absent from the body, and to be present with the Lord.

 

 

This verse says to me, to be absent from our body (death) is to be present with the Lord.  

 

 

 

1 Corinthians 15:51–54 (KJV 1900)

51 Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed, 52 In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed. 53 For this corruptible 

must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality. 54 So when this corruptible shall have put on incorruption, and this mortal shall have put on immortality, then shall be brought to pass the saying that is written, Death is swallowed up in victory.

 

It appears to me that these two areas of scripture are opposing each other.  I have read that when a Christian dies they go to sleep per say and will remain that way until Jesus comes again and at that time the souls in Christ will rise first and become present with the LORD.  

 

Another area that needs clarifying is God's judgement....are we judged when we die or when we are resurrected?  

 

Looking for biblical truth.

 

 

Sister "Jesuspaiditall4all,"

 

I believe that the answer to you dilemma (what appears to you as a contradiction between the above two passages) may be found through an understanding concerning the condition of an believer's body at death and concerning the condition of a believer's soul-spirit at death.  At the moment of physical death, the soul-spirit of the believer departs from the believer's body, so that the believer's physical body would then be defined as "dead."  Indeed, this was the point that Paul was making (under the inspiration of God the Holy Spirit) in 2 Corinthians 5:8, when he made reference to being "absent from the body." 

 

In fact, the apostle Paul's statement in 2 Corinthians 5:8 was delivered contextually in direct contrast to the statement that he had previously made in verse 6 -- "Therefore we are always confident, knowing that, whilst we are at home in the body, we are absent from the Lord."  Herein the apostle refers to the physical body as a type of "home" (or, "house") for the soul-spirit of the believer.  Yea, in verses 1-4 he had already emphasized this "physical body as a house" picture.  Furthermore, in verse 6 the apostle indicated that while we (our soul-spirit, the essential part of us that makes us to be us) are "at home" in the house of our physical body, we (our soul-spirit) are "absent from the Lord."  On the other hand, in verse 8 the apostle indicated the opposite condition (the condition that he personally desired) -- that when we (our soul-spirit) is "absent from the body" in and through death, then we (our soul-spirit) is "present with the Lord." 

 

In this manner, 2 Corinthian 5:6 & 8 teach the following truths of contrast:

          At home (present) in the body = Absent from the Lord

          Absent from the body (in death) = Present with the Lord

 

(Note:  It is true that 2 Corinthians 5:8 is often misquoted to say, "To be absent from the body is to be present with the Lord," when it actually says, "To be absent from the body, and to be present with the Lord."  However, in considering the grammar and context of 2 Corinthians 5:8, we are to understand that the conjunction "and" is employed as a term of equivalency.  As such, this conjunction "and" indicates that the two statements which it connects occur in direct union with one another.)

 

Yet what about those passages (such as 1 Corinthians 15:51) that employ the word "sleep" in relation to the death of a believer?  Such passages employ the word "sleep," not in relation to the soul-spirit of the believer, but to the dead body (from which the soul-spirit has departed in death) of the believer.  As such, the word "sleep" is employed as a picturesque figure of speech for the condition of the dead body, since in death the body has an appearance of being asleep.  Indeed, within its immediate context, the truths of 1 Corinthians 15:51-56 concerning our change from corruptible to incorruptible and from mortal to immortality specicially refers to the believers physical body.  In fact, 1 Corinthians 15:51-56 actually serves as the immediate conclusion for the previous discussion that encompasses verses 35-50 (wherein the word "body" is employed ten times).  That particular discussion begins with the questions of verse 35, "But some man will say, How are the dead raised up?  And with what body do they come?"

 

So then, God's Word employs the idea of "sleep" as picture for the dead physical body of the believer; but God's Word teaches that the soul-spirit of the beleiver is immediately "present with the Lord" at the moment of death.  Indeed, the teaching of 1 Thessalonians 4:13-18 supports this understanding (even as Brother Jerry attempted to reveal).  In verse 13 those who are "dead in Christ" are described as "those which are asleep," and in verse 14 they are described as "them also which sleep in Jesus."  Now, verse 14 indicates that when the Lord Jesus Christ HImself "shall descend from heaven," He will "bring with him" these believers (which would seem to imply that they were originally "with him" in heaven).  Yet verse 16 indicates that when the Lord Jesus Christ Himself "shall descend from heaven," these believers "shall rise first" out from the dead."  How then can these same believers both come back with the Lord from heaven and rise again from the dead of this earth?  The answer is that their soul-spirit, which in the moment physical death was "present with the Lord," shall be that part of them which comes back with the Lord and that their physically dead bodies which remained upon the earth shall be raised up from that death.

 

I pray that my lengthy ramblings will be of some help inanswering your questions.

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Sister "Jesuspaiditall4all,"

 

I believe that the answer to you dilemma (what appears to you as a contradiction between the above two passages) may be found through an understanding concerning the condition of an believer's body at death and concerning the condition of a believer's soul-spirit at death.  At the moment of physical death, the soul-spirit of the believer departs from the believer's body, so that the believer's physical body would then be defined as "dead."  Indeed, this was the point that Paul was making (under the inspiration of God the Holy Spirit) in 2 Corinthians 5:8, when he made reference to being "absent from the body." 

 

In fact, the apostle Paul's statement in 2 Corinthians 5:8 was delivered contextually in direct contrast to the statement that he had previously made in verse 6 -- "Therefore we are always confident, knowing that, whilst we are at home in the body, we are absent from the Lord."  Herein the apostle refers to the physical body as a type of "home" (or, "house") for the soul-spirit of the believer.  Yea, in verses 1-4 he had already emphasized this "physical body as a house" picture.  Furthermore, in verse 6 the apostle indicated that while we (our soul-spirit, the essential part of us that makes us to be us) are "at home" in the house of our physical body, we (our soul-spirit) are "absent from the Lord."  On the other hand, in verse 8 the apostle indicated the opposite condition (the condition that he personally desired) -- that when we (our soul-spirit) is "absent from the body" in and through death, then we (our soul-spirit) is "present with the Lord." 

 

In this manner, 2 Corinthian 5:6 & 8 teach the following truths of contrast:

          At home (present) in the body = Absent from the Lord

          Absent from the body (in death) = Present with the Lord

 

(Note:  It is true that 2 Corinthians 5:8 is often misquoted to say, "To be absent from the body is to be present with the Lord," when it actually says, "To be absent from the body, and to be present with the Lord."  However, in considering the grammar and context of 2 Corinthians 5:8, we are to understand that the conjunction "and" is employed as a term of equivalency.  As such, this conjunction "and" indicates that the two statements which it connects occur in direct union with one another.)

 

Yet what about those passages (such as 1 Corinthians 15:51) that employ the word "sleep" in relation to the death of a believer?  Such passages employ the word "sleep," not in relation to the soul-spirit of the believer, but to the dead body (from which the soul-spirit has departed in death) of the believer.  As such, the word "sleep" is employed as a picturesque figure of speech for the condition of the dead body, since in death the body has an appearance of being asleep.  Indeed, within its immediate context, the truths of 1 Corinthians 15:51-56 concerning our change from corruptible to incorruptible and from mortal to immortality specicially refers to the believers physical body.  In fact, 1 Corinthians 15:51-56 actually serves as the immediate conclusion for the previous discussion that encompasses verses 35-50 (wherein the word "body" is employed ten times).  That particular discussion begins with the questions of verse 35, "But some man will say, How are the dead raised up?  And with what body do they come?"

 

So then, God's Word employs the idea of "sleep" as picture for the dead physical body of the believer; but God's Word teaches that the soul-spirit of the beleiver is immediately "present with the Lord" at the moment of death.  Indeed, the teaching of 1 Thessalonians 4:13-18 supports this understanding (even as Brother Jerry attempted to reveal).  In verse 13 those who are "dead in Christ" are described as "those which are asleep," and in verse 14 they are described as "them also which sleep in Jesus."  Now, verse 14 indicates that when the Lord Jesus Christ HImself "shall descend from heaven," He will "bring with him" these believers (which would seem to imply that they were originally "with him" in heaven).  Yet verse 16 indicates that when the Lord Jesus Christ Himself "shall descend from heaven," these believers "shall rise first" out from the dead."  How then can these same believers both come back with the Lord from heaven and rise again from the dead of this earth?  The answer is that their soul-spirit, which in the moment physical death was "present with the Lord," shall be that part of them which comes back with the Lord and that their physically dead bodies which remained upon the earth shall be raised up from that death.

 

I pray that my lengthy ramblings will be of some help inanswering your questions.

 

 

I believe your explanation has made it clearer for me and if I understood what you stated from the scripture I quoted, I understand it to mean.....

When a believer dies their soul goes directly to be with the LORD and then in the future when Jesus returns, at that time those bodies who are asleep (dead in Christ)  will be transformed to their new heavenly bodies and will rise first and go directly to heaven?

So if I have understood correctly, that leads me to wonder what their bodies are now?  All those currently in heaven are they just a group of heavenly souls without a body or face?  How will they recognize their loved ones who have gone on before them??

This explanation has opened up a whole new set of questions for me....that is if I understood you properly??

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The lower parts of the earth MAY refer to the grave (Eph 4:9).  Remember the graves were opened and people were seen walking around after Christ's resurrection.  Leading "captivity captive" could refer to lost people being set free from the clutches of Satan (saved).  Why preach to those in hell, when it's too late to repent?

 

 

 

 

Eph 4:8 Wherefore he saith, When he ascended up on high, he led captivity captive, and gave gifts unto men.
Eph 4:9 (Now that he ascended, what is it but that he also descended first into the lower parts of the earth?
Eph 4:10 He that descended is the same also that ascended up far above all heavens, that he might fill all things.)

 

Surely no one would deny that Jesus did this.

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