2 Thessalonians 2:3 - "falling Away" Or "departure"?

[AVBibleBeliever]

seems some of you like going to the Greek to change the word of God.

[Kleptes]

I have long questioned the translation of apostasia to "falling away" in the King James version.

I have learned that the 5 English translations prior to the King James rendered the word "departure".

 

The King James reads: Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come,

except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition;

 

The word apostasia was directly brought from the Koine Greek into the English language

long before the King James version (changing the ia into y).  To me, the correct translation

would refer to the rapture of the Church and then the revealing of the Antichrist. 

I feel that the deception (supernatural) of the Antichrist will be overwhelming

and the Church must be removed first.

 

Here is a link concerning this topic: http://www.raptureready.com/featured/ice/TheRapturein2Thessalonians2_3.html

The translator Tyndale use the word departing. I believe the word departing meant a departing from the truth and into apostasy teaching.  If I remember correctly the 47 translators of the KJB.  Used along with the original tongues, the former translations diligently compared and revised.  They compared those other translations with the original tongues and revised it in the KJB. Thus making it the only accurate English translation to date.

The Greek word Apostasia translated to falling away is accurate.

[beameup]

The translator Tyndale use the word departing. I believe the word departing meant a departing from the truth and into apostasy teaching.  If I remember correctly the 47 translators of the KJB.  Used along with the original tongues, the former translations diligently compared and revised.  They compared those other translations with the original tongues and revised it in the KJB. Thus making it the only accurate English translation to date.

The Greek word Apostasia translated to falling away is accurate.

I'm not quite sure what they meant by using "falling away" 400 years ago. 

The other verse using apostasia is in Acts 28:28 "forsaking" Moses.

Since the Greek word has become an English word, then apostasy could be used.

Since apostasy is now an English word, translaterated from the Greek, then apostasy is "fair game" for examination.

It is composed of two words: apo and stasis.  Apo - away from, stasis - a condition of stability or permanence

To me, it tends to mean a rather sudden event, as is the case of transating it departure in older English versions.

 

The CONTEXT of the whole section of 2 Thes 2:1-5 is our gathering together unto him,

I've heard IFB false teaching that the "falling away" is a trend (gradual) and not a sudden event as the passage clearly teaches.

Also, the "falling away" occurs PRIOR TO the unveiling of the "man of sin".  The sudden revelation of a "new gospel" with signs and wonders would certainly fall into this category, as well.

Edited May 12, 2014 by beameup

[prophet1]

Of course, falling away is not resurrecting.
No body falls upward to the sky.
Rapture is a feeling, not an event.

But, because some here are set in the ways of the error of the Bible Correctors, certainly there must be some prOBlem with the wording, or our perception of it.

If your eschatology isn't skewed by men's teachings, then you understand this plainly, that falling away is of those who are supposed to be watching.
PreTrib dispy teaching fits the bill.

Anishinaabe

[AVBibleBeliever]

Of course, falling away is not resurrecting.
No body falls upward to the sky.
Rapture is a feeling, not an event.

But, because some here are set in the ways of the error of the Bible Correctors, certainly there must be some prOBlem with the wording, or our perception of it.

If your eschatology isn't skewed by men's teachings, then you understand this plainly, that falling away is of those who are supposed to be watching.
PreTrib dispy teaching fits the bill.

Anishinaabe

A gathering into the clouds does not seem like a falling away to me either.

 

the falling away is already upon us.  It is the rejection of the word of God.  Even among the church there is less and less true teaching from the word of God..

 

All we need now is the revelation of the man of sin and we are out of here.

[prophet1]

A gathering into the clouds does not seem like a falling away to me either.

the falling away is already upon us. It is the rejection of the word of God. Even among the church there is less and less true teaching from the word of God..

All we need now is the revelation of the man of sin and we are out of here.

After he makes war against us, and wins...temporarily.

Anishinaabe

[AVBibleBeliever]

After he makes war against us, and wins...temporarily.

Anishinaabe

Naw, IMO, the elect he makes war with is not the Body of Christ but Israel and that would happen after we are gathered together.

 

One step a lot of people fail in study is asking the "which " question.

 

Which elect?

 

in the OT and the gospels up to Acts 7 the Elect is Israel.  Today in this age the elect is the Body of Christ.  After our gathering Israel will once again be the elect Hebrew-Rev.

 

Which People?

 

the people, my people and the people from Exodus to Acts 7 is Israel. Today from Acts 13 to Philemon that term is used of the Body of Christ.  from Heb-rev it is Israel.

 

Which church?

 

From Exodus to Act 7 it is Israel (church in the wilderness/church of the first born).  today from Acts 13-Philemon the church is the body of Christ.  from Hebrews to revelation it is Israel.

 

Which chosen?

 

From Genesis to Act 7 the chosen is Israel.  Today from Act 13-Philemon the chosen is the Body of Christ. From Heb-rev the chosen is Israel.

 

It is important to study out using all the tools God gave us Who, What, When, Why, Where, Which and How.  These seven tools help us to rightly divide the word of truth.

Edited May 12, 2014 by AVBibleBeliever

[prophet1]

Naw, IMO, the elect he makes war with is not the Body of Christ but Israel and that would happen after we are gathered together.

One step a lot of people fail in study is asking the "which " question.

Which elect?

in the OT and the gospels up to Acts 7 the Elect is Israel. Today in this age the elect is the Body of Christ. After our gathering Israel will once again be the elect Hebrew-Rev.

Which People?

the people, my people and the people from Exodus to Acts 7 is Israel. Today from Acts 13 to Philemon that term is used of the Body of Christ. from Heb-rev it is Israel.

Which church?

From Exodus to Act 7 it is Israel (church in the wilderness/church of the first born). today from Acts 13-Philemon the church is the body of Christ. from Hebrews to revelation it is Israel.

Which chosen?

From Genesis to Act 7 the chosen is Israel. Today from Act 13-Philemon the chosen is the Body of Christ. From Heb-rev the chosen is Israel.

It is important to study out using all the tools God gave us Who, What, When, Why, Where, Which and How. These seven tools help us to rightly divide the word of truth.

The Elect, from Israel, are in the Body of Christ. The unbelieving Israelites are in Hell.

Anishinaabe

[AVBibleBeliever]

The Elect, from Israel, are in the Body of Christ. The unbelieving Israelites are in Hell.

Anishinaabe

I am not Israel/ a blue blood Jew I am a Gentile and I am called elect today along with any believing man of any race.  But in the OT economy only Israel, ALL Israel was called the Elect.

 

No one under the OT economy or during the Great Tribulation will be added to the Body of Christ.  for there was no such thing in the OT and their is none added in the Tribulation.  They are added to the kingdom not the body, for the body has been removed at the gathering.

Edited May 12, 2014 by AVBibleBeliever

[prophet1]

I am not Israel/ a blue blood Jew I am a Gentile and I am called elect today along with any believing man of any race. But in the OT economy only Israel, ALL Israel was called the Elect.

No one under the OT economy or during the Great Tribulation will be added to the Body of Christ. for there was no such thing in the OT and their is none added in the Tribulation. They are added to the kingdom not the body, for the body has been removed at the gathering.

Every 'body' of every one who has ever believed, will be gathered at the first resurrection, including the Tribulation Martyrs, who aren't called Jews, so don't try to say that they are.

Rev 20:4-6
4 And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them:and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years.
5 But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection.
6 Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection:on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years.

Saying something on purpose, that you don't know to be true, is a lifestyle of lying. Habitual. Dispensational.

If you try to say that the martyrs in Rev. 20 are Jews, I will, from now on, call you a liar for it.

Anishinaabe

[Ukulelemike]

I am not Israel/ a blue blood Jew I am a Gentile and I am called elect today along with any believing man of any race.  But in the OT economy only Israel, ALL Israel was called the Elect.

 

No one under the OT economy or during the Great Tribulation will be added to the Body of Christ.  for there was no such thing in the OT and their is none added in the Tribulation.  They are added to the kingdom not the body, for the body has been removed at the gathering.

What about the spirits in prison that Jesus preached to while He was in the grave? Aren't these the OT righteous who waited in Paradise until Christ came? Why was Crist preaching to them? Might He have given them the gospel, showing them that He was the One they had waited for, and giving them the opportunity to accept Him as such? And then He took them to Heaven, correct? Would they not be part of the body of Christ?

 

These OT saints in are a difficulty-the Bible really doesn't say much about them, and we must assume certain things, but we KNOW Jesus preached to them, and if He preached to them, what else would it be but the gospel?

[AVBibleBeliever]

What about the spirits in prison that Jesus preached to while He was in the grave? You mean while he was in Hell because none of them were in the grave with him.  But he went to hell whee they were.

 

Aren't these the OT righteous who waited in Paradise until Christ came? Yes Jew and Gentile unless there is something the word of God is not telling us about those two places known as torments and Paradise.

 

Why was Crist preaching to them? Might He have given them the gospel, showing them that He was the One they had waited for, and giving them the opportunity to accept Him as such?  I believed He preached the righteousness of God of which he fulfilled no one in the torments side of hell would be given a chance to accept Christ and get saved.  Those on the Paradise side were already written in the book of life and Christ preaching was to them assurance.

 

And then He took them to Heaven, correct?  We can not say without doubt that they went to heaven for the scriptures do not say they went to heaven.  Mt 27:50 ¶  Jesus, when he had cried again with a loud voice, yielded up the ghost.  51 And, behold, the veil of the temple was rent in twain from the top to the bottom; and the earth did quake, and the rocks rent;  52 And the graves were opened; and many bodies of the saints which slept arose,  53 And came out of the graves after his resurrection, and went into the holy city, and appeared unto many.  Is there an empty place that was called paradise or known as Abraham's bosom and it was really emptied?  we can not without a doubt say that is true either.  Men have made a doctrine that says he took them to heaven because of the scripture that said he led captivity captive or he set the prisoners free.  But that may not mean what they have made it out to be. we have a belief in mens teaching over the clear evidence of the KJV.  I am not saying they aren't in heaven right now with Christ but the word of God does not tell us that. 

 

How would anyone during that time recognize David, Johnathan or any other Saint who was buried in Jerusalem under Gogatha if they walked through Jerusalem?

 

They would not. But if it had been Simeon, Anna, a prophetess, the daughter of Phanuel, or even some of those who had believed on Jesus Christ as the son of God and true king of Israel that had died before he went to the cross, Now they would have walked through that city and could appear to many that had known them and that would make better sense seeing people knew who they were.  when you present yourself to people generally they know you. No one of that day would have known anyone buried in that grave 150 to 2000 years before.

 

Would they not be part of the body of Christ?  NO. No one was made part of the Body of Christ until Paul preached the gospel of the Grace of God and presented the doctrine of the Body of Christ.  Peter knew of no such thing nor John or any other Apostle or disciple before Paul revealed it. Romans 7:4, 1 Cor 10:16: 12:27 and Eph 4:12.  Christ did not teach this nor Peter nor any other Apostle only Paul.    

 

These OT saints in are a difficulty-the Bible really doesn't say much about them, and we must assume certain things, but we KNOW Jesus preached to them, and if He preached to them, what else would it be but the gospel? It is always best not to assume anything we can guess but we must admit we could be wrong if the Bible is not clear on any subject.  I presented what I believe he preached unto them the righteousness of God more specifically His judgement 1Peter 4:6.  Those in the torments are still lost, those in paradise are still saved.

Edited May 14, 2014 by AVBibleBeliever

[Genevanpreacher]

I have long questioned the translation of apostasia to "falling away" in the King James version.

I have learned that the 5 English translations prior to the King James rendered the word "departure".

 

The King James reads: Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come,

except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition;

 

The word apostasia was directly brought from the Koine Greek into the English language

long before the King James version (changing the ia into y).  To me, the correct translation

would refer to the rapture of the Church and then the revealing of the Antichrist. 

I feel that the deception (supernatural) of the Antichrist will be overwhelming

and the Church must be removed first.

 

Here is a link concerning this topic: http://www.raptureready.com/featured/ice/TheRapturein2Thessalonians2_3.html

If you read the note for that verse in the 1560 Geneva, you will see -

"A wonderful departing of the most part from the faith" 

Not a 'rapture' issue from these translators view. But false 'christians' seperating themselves from the elect of God.

[DaveW]

This is a KJV site - no place for you to promote your favourite version....

[Genevanpreacher]

This is a KJV site - no place for you to promote your favourite version....

​Uh, Beameup started this discussion and involved the pre-1611 bibles himself. I was just informing what that set of translators thought, not promoting the text. Observe Beameup's quote:

"I have long questioned the translation of apostasia to "falling away" in the King James version.

I have learned that the 5 English translations prior to the King James rendered the word "departure".

 

[You should stop being so worried that someone might look at another bible used by the 'faithful' believers of the past.]

Which, by the way, why is it that AVBiblebeliever is marked an IFB on this page but not an IFB on his profile page?

Edited April 18, 2015 by Genevanpreacher