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Tithe With Out A Cheerful Heart?


The Glory Land

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SFIC you and your wife use the Old Testament tithing law to make your point, but deny it when it comes to tihting!  How hypocritical that is! 

 

The tribes did tithe, and A PORTION went to the Levites, from which they also tithed. 

 

Lev. 27:30 emphatically says "The tithe is the Lords" and it is Holy:

 

"And all the tithe of the land, whether of the seed of the land, or of the fruit of the tree, is the LORD'S: it is holy unto the LORD."
 

Perhaps He changed His mind in the N.T.?

 

Sure, they tithed from crops, money was scarce for the average person, the poor could afford to tithe that which they had, but few had much money.

 

Jesus mentioned tithing in the N.T. too, and said that ye ought to have done AND NOT LEFT THE OTHER UNDONE.

 

 Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye pay tithe of mint and anise and cummin, and have omitted the weightier matters of the law, judgment, mercy, and faith: these ought ye to have done, and not to leave the other undone. (Mt 23:23)

 

But woe unto you, Pharisees! for ye tithe mint and rue and all manner of herbs, and pass over judgment and the love of God: these ought ye to have done, and not to leave the other undone. (Lk. 11:42)

 

I have tried to avoid a long drawn out discussion the last time, but I see that you are obsessed with this falsehood, and figured, for the sake of others, that we might as well go over some old ground again.  Not that I suppose you will be convinced, you are to hung up on the thought that God doesn't deserve a tithe, but for the sake of a few others who have not studied so much that they have become dogmatically, stubborn.  "Much study has made (some) mad"

 

 

First, let me say your attitude stinks.  No one that I know of feels compelled to tithe "forcibly", as you seem to think the teaching implies.  That is a matter of attitude.  It is obvious that you cannot give cheerfully, as was already mentioned that we should.

 

Secondly, The idea of "grace giving" (as so called by John MacArthur, who denied the blood of Christ) opens the door to no giving at all "if you feel you can't afford it".  That leaves it up to man to decide if the tithe is the Lord's or his.

 

IN 2 Cor. 9:7, which is often quoted in the subject of tithing, bears out a blessing for those that give--contrary to what you sem to believe.  If one would read the rest of the text, they would see that we are still not to ignore the poor, which you say we do if we tithe. 

 

Can you read?

 

2Co 9:7  Every man according as he purposeth in his heart, so let him give; not grudgingly, or of necessity: for God loveth a cheerful giver.
2Co 9:8  And God is able to make all grace abound toward you; that ye, always having all sufficiency in all things, may abound to every good work:
 

God is able to provide that which you lack.

 

2Co 9:9  (As it is written, He hath dispersed abroad; he hath given to the poor: his righteousness remaineth for ever.
2Co 9:10  Now he that ministereth seed to the sower both minister bread for your food, and multiply your seed sown, and increase the fruits of your righteousness;)
 

then,backing up to verse 6:

 

2Co 9:6  But this I say, He which soweth sparingly shall reap also sparingly; and he which soweth bountifully shall reap also bountifully.

The implication is that God blesses a faithful giver.

 

Now, concerning percentage giving (remember, "tithe" means "the tenth") we are to give equally.  The only way to do that is percentage giving.  10% is always 10%, not matter what the income.

 

2Co 8:12  For if there be first a willing mind, it is accepted according to that a man hath, and not according to that he hath not.
2Co 8:13  For I mean not that other men be eased, and ye burdened:
2Co 8:14  But by an equality, that now at this time your abundance may be a supply for their want, that their abundance also may be a supply for your want: that there may be equality:

 

One of the biggest problems in the church today is applying scripture to our own beliefs.  Every post (nearly) that is doctrinal, will have many say why it doesn't apply today (dispensationalists?) or that it doesn't mean what it says, literally; most of us give it our own private interpretation.  I am afraid that is the problem here. 

 

There is not much more for me to say, take it or leave it, and let the Lord sort things out when He comes.
 



 

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I was told that a Christian must tithe, with or without a cheerful heart. I cannot see this, that a person tithe when he is not right with God or with the church he is a member of. Can a person receive a blessing with anger in his heart?

No. Any giving in anger, whether one calls it a tithe or offering, will not reap a good reward.

 

In anything we claim to do for the Lord, unless we do it with a proper heart, it isn't done truly unto the Lord and we won't receive any reward for what we did from a sinful heart.

 

If a person tithes or gives cheerfully, and as he believes the Lord leads, doing so out of love, the Lord will reward such. The opposite is also true. If a person tithes or gives begrudgingly, not cheerfully, not in love, it doesn't matter how much they put in the collection, they can expect no good reward for their actions.

 

This not only applies to giving, but to all aspects of our Christian walk.

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No. Any giving in anger, whether one calls it a tithe or offering, will not reap a good reward.

In anything we claim to do for the Lord, unless we do it with a proper heart, it isn't done truly unto the Lord and we won't receive any reward for what we did from a sinful heart.

If a person tithes or gives cheerfully, and as he believes the Lord leads, doing so out of love, the Lord will reward such. The opposite is also true. If a person tithes or gives begrudgingly, not cheerfully, not in love, it doesn't matter how much they put in the collection, they can expect no good reward for their actions.

This not only applies to giving, but to all aspects of our Christian walk.



I agree, 10 % I mean 100 % with you. :)
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No. Any giving in anger, whether one calls it a tithe or offering, will not reap a good reward.

 

In anything we claim to do for the Lord, unless we do it with a proper heart, it isn't done truly unto the Lord and we won't receive any reward for what we did from a sinful heart.

 

If a person tithes or gives cheerfully, and as he believes the Lord leads, doing so out of love, the Lord will reward such. The opposite is also true. If a person tithes or gives begrudgingly, not cheerfully, not in love, it doesn't matter how much they put in the collection, they can expect no good reward for their actions.

 

This not only applies to giving, but to all aspects of our Christian walk.

 

Might I also add --

 

For a believer to say, "I recognize that the Lord my God desires for me to give, but that He also desires for me to give with a cheerful heart.  Therefore, because I do not have a cheerful heart concerning giving, I will just give nothing at all." -- Such a decision simply indicates that this believer has added sin upon sin.  This believer is sinning against the Lord in not possessing a cheerful heart for giving.  Indeed, the Lord our God "loveth a cheerful giver."  To not possess a cheerful heart in giving is to stand contrary to that which the Lord our God Himself loves.  To stand contrary to that which the Lord our God Himself loves is a sin.  Furthermore, to choose not to give at all, when the Lord our God indicates His desire that we should give, is an additional sin.  The Biblically correct step for the believer who does not possess a cheerful heart in giving is not that of adding sin upon sin by choosing not to give at all.  Rather, the Biblically correct step for this believer is that of repenting before the Lord concerning his or her sinful heart attitude concerning giving.

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I have seen nothing to say that we must give 10% of income.  Yes, it can be a good guideline, but it is not a command.  In the New Testament, we are to give how God leads us to give.  Some that may be 10%.  Others may be 5%.  Others may be 90% (I knew a man who gave 90% of his income to the church.  He was extremely wealthy, and gave most to the church).  

 

And if you say you must give 10%, 10% of what?  Gross income?  Taxable income?  Net income after family expenses?  If you go down that road you have to start making many rules.  

 

God will call each of us to give differently.  We must listen and obey.  

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SFIC

You jumped to some conclusions there:

 

First, I didn't say anything about your particular family or situation - I was responding to the idea that you stated the family that is not nearby is automatically resolved from responsibility as evidenced here

I don't expect anything from the church...except truth and obedience to God's Word. Obviously, with mother's pastor, thos qualities mean nothing. As a widow who had no immediate family members living near her, the church's responsibility was to provide for her as the Word says... Not the other way around.

Secondly, you don't know anything about me or our church, nor was I even dealing with the treatment (reported, reputed, perceived, or actual) of the relationship between your mother and her church. In fact, I wasn't defending, taking up for, or sticking with anyone.

 

Nothing can be farther from the truth, OFB. All of mother's children are handicapped and are in no position to support her.

You want to judge those who are on disability? Amazing. Anything to condone the ungodly actions of a greedy preacher.

Gotta stick together, I suppose.

 

 

According to Paul's epistle to Timothy, the Church was to employ widows who reach the age of 60.  This means that the Church should have hired my mother 60 years ago and been supporting her... not her supporting them.

 

Thirdly, according to "1Ti 5:4  But if any widow have children or nephews, let them learn first to shew piety at home, and to requite their parents: for that is good and acceptable before God."  her FAMILY is responsible before the church would be. 1Ti 5:16  If any man or woman that believeth have widows, let them relieve them, and let not the church be charged; that it may relieve them that are widows indeed. 

 

 

Again, I wasn't referring to your specific circumstance (considering you didn't provide any details, nor should you be required to) but to your insinuation that proximity (or lack thereof) constitutes responsibility (or relief thereof).

 

Fourthly, the passage refers to provision by, not employment by, the church. Would you suggest that when she is too feeble to work the church cut off support? I doubt you believe such, but that is what your post implies.

 

 

Most Baptist want to use 1Ti 5:8  But if any provide not for his own, and specially for those of his own house, he hath denied the faith, and is worse than an infidel. to say you should work (2Th_3:10  For even when we were with you, this we commanded you, that if any would not work, neither should he eat.  does that) but the context of this passage is taking care of widows in your family.

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SFIC you and your wife use the Old Testament tithing law to make your point, but deny it when it comes to tihting!  How hypocritical that is! 

Actually, we do not deny the Old Testament at all.  So your claim that we do is erroneous and misleading to say the least.

The tribes did tithe, and A PORTION went to the Levites, from which they also tithed. 

Only of the second and third year tithes did a portion go to the Levites. (see Deuteronomy 14:22-29) The first year tithe went wholly to the Levites. (see Numbers 18:24-26; Nehemiah 10:37-38)

Lev. 27:30 emphatically says "The tithe is the Lords" and it is Holy:
Correct.

 

"And all the tithe of the land, whether of the seed of the land, or of the fruit of the tree, is the LORD'S: it is holy unto the LORD."
 

Perhaps He changed His mind in the N.T.?
Not at all.  This is where I point out that it is not me, nor my wife, who is denying the Old Testament. You fail to give the Scripture that clearly states that the tithe is limited to Israel only.  Notice:
Leviticus 27:34 These are the commandments, which the LORD commanded Moses for the children of Israel in mount Sinai.

For the children of Israel, Irishman... not for America, not for Europe, not for any other country or nation but Israel alone.  Why did you skip over that part of the Old Testament?  And you have the nerve to call me and my wife hypocritical!

 

Sure, they tithed from crops, money was scarce for the average person, the poor could afford to tithe that which they had, but few had much money.
Again, you are wrong.  Money was not scarce for the average person.  All peoples of Israel had money... even the poor. 
Exodus 30:15 The rich shall not give more, and the poor shall not give less than half a shekel, when they give an offering unto the LORD, to make an atonement for your souls.

 

 

Jesus mentioned tithing in the N.T. too, and said that ye ought to have done AND NOT LEFT THE OTHER UNDONE.

 

 Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye pay tithe of mint and anise and cummin, and have omitted the weightier matters of the law, judgment, mercy, and faith: these ought ye to have done, and not to leave the other undone. (Mt 23:23)

 

But woe unto you, Pharisees! for ye tithe mint and rue and all manner of herbs, and pass over judgment and the love of God: these ought ye to have done, and not to leave the other undone. (Lk. 11:42)

Of course, Jesus said "this ye ought to have done."  Why would He not have said it?  He was talking to the scribes and Pharisees who were living in the land of Israel who by Mosaic Law were required to tithe.  Jesus was not speaking to the New Testament Church... He was speaking to a peoples who were under the Law of Moses.
 

I have tried to avoid a long drawn out discussion the last time, but I see that you are obsessed with this falsehood, and figured, for the sake of others, that we might as well go over some old ground again.  Not that I suppose you will be convinced, you are to hung up on the thought that God doesn't deserve a tithe, but for the sake of a few others who have not studied so much that they have become dogmatically, stubborn.  "Much study has made (some) mad"
I never said God didn't deserve a tithe.  Why do you continue to falsely misrepresent me as you do, Irishman?  What I have consistently said is God never required us to tithe.  As Leviticus 27 clearly says, the tithe was "for the children of Israel." 
It isn't that God doesn't deserve the tithe.  What it is, is that God doesn't want the tithe.  Ephesians makes that abundantly clear.  God abolished the commandments written in the ordinances.  Tithing was an ordinance.
Malachi 3:7-8 Even from the days of your fathers ye are gone away from mine ordinances, and have not kept them. Return unto me, and I will return unto you, saith the LORD of hosts. But ye said, Wherein shall we return? Will a man rob God? Yet ye have robbed me. But ye say, Wherein have we robbed thee? In tithes and offerings.

Ephesians 2:14-15 For he is our peace, who hath made both one, and hath broken down the middle wall of partition between us; Having abolished in his flesh the enmity, even the law of commandments contained in ordinances; for to make in himself of twain one new man, so making peace;

 

 

 

First, let me say your attitude stinks.  No one that I know of feels compelled to tithe "forcibly", as you seem to think the teaching implies.  That is a matter of attitude.  It is obvious that you cannot give cheerfully, as was already mentioned that we should.
You say no one you know of feels compelled to tithe forcefully, yet you say that Jesus says "this ye ought to have done".  Seems someone here is being "forced" and doesn't even realize it.

 

Secondly, The idea of "grace giving" (as so called by John MacArthur, who denied the blood of Christ) opens the door to no giving at all "if you feel you can't afford it".  That leaves it up to man to decide if the tithe is the Lord's or his.
God has already said in His Word that He abolished the tithe.  So how can one decide to tithe and go against God?  You are advocating we rebel against God.  Many cannot afford to give that 10% that the Church (not God) demands of them.  Paul said in 2 Corinthians 8 that our giving should not cause us to lack.
 

 

IN 2 Cor. 9:7, which is often quoted in the subject of tithing, bears out a blessing for those that give--contrary to what you sem to believe.  If one would read the rest of the text, they would see that we are still not to ignore the poor, which you say we do if we tithe. 

 

Can you read?

 

2Co 9:7  Every man according as he purposeth in his heart, so let him give; not grudgingly, or of necessity: for God loveth a cheerful giver.
2Co 9:8  And God is able to make all grace abound toward you; that ye, always having all sufficiency in all things, may abound to every good work:

I have no problem with reading at all.  Why be so condescending in your posts, Irishman?  Regardless of the fact that the passage says God is able to make all grace abound toward you, you are still denying the previous verse when you teach that I, or anyone else, should tithe our money.  The previous verse clearly says we are to decide of our own accord what amount we want to give.  If we choose to give 15%, God will be happy with that.  If we choose 40%, God will be happy with that.  If we choose 1%, God will be happy that we gave.  God said it is our choice.  That means others are not to dictate what we give.  You didn't underline "as he purposeth in his heart, so let him give" but I can see why you might want to overlook that when telling others what God allegedly requires of them.
 

God is able to provide that which you lack.

 

2Co 9:9  (As it is written, He hath dispersed abroad; he hath given to the poor: his righteousness remaineth for ever.
2Co 9:10  Now he that ministereth seed to the sower both minister bread for your food, and multiply your seed sown, and increase the fruits of your righteousness;)
 

then,backing up to verse 6:

 

2Co 9:6  But this I say, He which soweth sparingly shall reap also sparingly; and he which soweth bountifully shall reap also bountifully.

The implication is that God blesses a faithful giver.

God does bless a cheerful giver.  But He lets that cheerful giver choose what he wants to give.  "as he purposeth in his heart, so let him give."

 

Now, concerning percentage giving (remember, "tithe" means "the tenth") we are to give equally.  The only way to do that is percentage giving.  10% is always 10%, not matter what the income.

 

2Co 8:12  For if there be first a willing mind, it is accepted according to that a man hath, and not according to that he hath not.
2Co 8:13  For I mean not that other men be eased, and ye burdened:
2Co 8:14  But by an equality, that now at this time your abundance may be a supply for their want, that their abundance also may be a supply for your want: that there may be equality:

10% is 10%.  But you are inserting into that text something it does not say.  Where are the words "ten percent" written in that text, Irishman?  Why are you adding to the Word of God?  Have you no fear of the consequences of adding to His Word?  A little leaven leaveneth the whole lump.  When you add to the Word of God, you corrupt that Word.  Those who put out the modern (per)versions do that.  But in your commentaries, you are just as guilty of adding to the Word as they are.  When you add to the Word of God, it no longer is His Word, it is yours.  God did not say that equality means 10%.  Nor did He say that equality means any percentage at all.

 

One of the biggest problems in the church today is applying scripture to our own beliefs. Something that you have done yourself in your post here.  Every post (nearly) that is doctrinal, will have many say why it doesn't apply today (dispensationalists?) or that it doesn't mean what it says, literally; most of us give it our own private interpretation.  I am afraid that is the problem here. 
I agree, your post does show your own private interpretation.

 

There is not much more for me to say, take it or leave it, and let the Lord sort things out when He comes.
I'll leave it, since it doesn't agree with what the Lord has given us in His Word.
 


 

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God will call each of us to give differently.  We must listen and obey.  

 

The Scriptures teach otherwise.  However, the Holy Spirit may place a burden to give offerings for other things, such as missions or to help a struggling family member.  The tithe is for the storehouse, your offerings can be given as the Lord leads through the Holy Ghost.

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The Tithe WAS for the storehouse. The storehouse was part of the Temple in Jerusalem, which no longer exists.

Any Bible studying Jew can testify to that fact.

God commanded that the tithes be taken to the storehouse. The storehouse was in Israel, not in any other nation.

There is no Scripture that says God had tithing storehouses anywhere outside of Israel.

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Actually, 2 Corinthians 9 does not say it is a special offering for a special need and a special time.  Read it again.

2 Corinthians 9:1-7 For as touching the ministering to the saints, it is superfluous for me to write to you: For I know the forwardness of your mind, for which I boast of you to them of Macedonia, that Achaia was ready a year ago; and your zeal hath provoked very many. Yet have I sent the brethren, lest our boasting of you should be in vain in this behalf; that, as I said, ye may be ready: Lest haply if they of Macedonia come with me, and find you unprepared, we (that we say not, ye) should be ashamed in this same confident boasting. Therefore I thought it necessary to exhort the brethren, that they would go before unto you, and make up beforehand your bounty, whereof ye had notice before, that the same might be ready, as a matter of bounty, and not as of covetousness. But this I say, He which soweth sparingly shall reap also sparingly; and he which soweth bountifully shall reap also bountifully. Every man according as he purposeth in his heart, so let him give; not grudgingly, or of necessity: for God loveth a cheerful giver.

The offering is for the ministering to the saints.  Doesn't say it is a special need or a special offering or a special time.   Nice try though.

You sport your ignorance as if you're proud of it! Wow! This offering was a special offering to the saints in Jerusalem due to the drought that brought on them. Ever read Acts 11?? Paul is being sarcastic in verse 1, he is still waiting for these Corinthians to send what they had promised a year earlier.

 

Mine was no nice try, it was simple Bible. Sometimes your forcing of the letter is a joke Standing. It completely ignores context and is lazy for looking for the cross references. Any simple search would have revealed to you that this chapter and the previous are dealing with an offering that was being collected for the saints in Jerusalem as a result of a drought there. These are not instructions for the regular giving of a church as they would be found in 1 Corinthians 16.

 

All I can do is shake my head at your complete ignorance on the context of this chapter, even for you that´s a mind blower. But I guess in your great zeal to make sure no one ever , ever , ever tithes and feels good about, you jump in and inserted foot in mouth.

 

:puzzled3:

 

God bless

calvary

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Can't prove me wrong, attack my character. No surprise though. I'e come to expect it of you.

You have yet to produce the verses where Paul, or any othe Apostle, tells the Believer of the Gospel to tithe. Is that in 1 Opinions? or 2 Imaginations?

I detect no sarcasm in Paul's statement in verse 1. Nor do I see where Paul said it was for Jerusalem. Matter of fact, paul doesn't mention Jerusalem in that chapter, nor in either of its immediate surrounding chapters.

Nice try though.

By the way... 1 Corinthians 16 is not a collection for the Church. THAT collection was for the saints at Jerusalem. Obviously, you have your collections confused.

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SFIC, you are proving an enigma to me. You produce very well thought out, reasonable posts on many subjects, and I generally appreciate your input, but something about this topic produces Mr. Hyde!

 

It is not reasonable to argue against tithing as a requirement each and every time the opportunity arises even when others are obviously tired of hearing those arguments. It is not reasonable to repeatedly insist that others are producing no Scripture to back up their beliefs, only to accuse them of misinterpreting it whenever Scripture is produced.  It is not reasonable to expect people to resist passively when they or their godly pastors are receiving character assassinations for teaching tithing. And it is not reasonable to react as a martyr when your own attitude is reflected back to you.

 

Let me quote two of your responses:

 

Can't prove me wrong, attack my character.

 

 

You feel your character is being attacked? What were you doing in this earlier post?

 

You want to judge those who are on disability? Amazing. Anything to condone the ungodly actions of a greedy preacher.  Gotta stick together, I suppose.

 

 

In this post, you have called your debaters (or their pastors that teach tithing):

Oppressors of the poor
In rebellion against God

Hypocritical

Suppressors of the truth

Teachers of disobedience and rebellion

Dishonest

Having no fear of God (I'll skip the one about being a disgrace to the ministry, because the specific example you were citing there was a disgrace to the ministry.)

Wolves in sheep's clothing

Sticking together with ungodly, greedy preachers (I'll skip the ungodly & greedy because that particular one was)

Deceiving

Robbing the flock

Teaching a man-made doctrine

Misinterpreting Scripture

Adding to the Word

And then you feel attacked when they respond roughly themselves! Pot calling the kettle black, sir.

 

I understand you truly feel the tithe is not required. Fine. Great! There are those on here that truly feel it is. Frankly, I don't think it's something to separate over. Since it isn't something of sufficient weight to separate over... perhaps it is not necessary to stubbornly debate it at every possible opportunity? 

 

And yes, I called you stubborn. Cause on this topic, you be the stubbornest person I ever done met! :wink

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Can't prove me wrong, attack my character. No surprise though. I'e come to expect it of you.

You have yet to produce the verses where Paul, or any othe Apostle, tells the Believer of the Gospel to tithe. Is that in 1 Opinions? or 2 Imaginations?

I detect no sarcasm in Paul's statement in verse 1. Nor do I see where Paul said it was for Jerusalem. Matter of fact, paul doesn't mention Jerusalem in that chapter, nor in either of its immediate surrounding chapters.

Nice try though.

By the way... 1 Corinthians 16 is not a collection for the Church. THAT collection was for the saints at Jerusalem. Obviously, you have your collections confused.

Standing, you would be charged with the impossible task of finding any post where I ever told anyone to tithe. I care not a whit what you do with your money or what anyone does with their money. Again, your inability to actually do any due diligence in studying out what the saints needed, who these particular saints were and why was Paul asking them to get it together for the 3 men who are on their way to collect it? Do you suggest that all local churches send their offerings to a central clearinghouse?

 

According to your sloppy study habits, since you always seem to tell us what the text in any given situation does not say, thereby absolving all and any of whatever it you

 stand against, I could easily say, the Bible does not state that I cannot smoke cigarettes, therefore if I so chose to do so, I am not violating the scriptures.

 

 Now concerning the collection for the saints, as I have given order to the churches of Galatia, even so do ye.

Obviously a standard that Paul has taught in many places. I am aware of what verse 3 says,  but it does not annul what he said in verse 1.

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Jesus identified religious leaders as hypocrites (and other harsh words) when they were wrong.

Unless you can prove me wrong with Scripture, (that doesn't mean taking them out of context ) you can't prove me wrong when I say a preacher is greedy, ignorant of Scripture, or deceitful when teaching a monetary tithe.

Where are those verses that prove me wrong, Salyan. Don't just say I am wrong, present the proof that I am.

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