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Donald

Promoting Strength

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The kind of “strength” that I am talking about is “Spiritual strength”....
“Him that is weak in the faith receive ye, [but] not to doubtful disputations.”
(Romans 14:1)


This passage in Romans talks about two different kinds of Christians: Those that are “weak in the faith”, and those that are strong in the faith.  And a big problem that a lot of pastors have had over the centuries, has been promoting weakness instead of strength. Now before I get into “how we can promote Spiritual strength”, lets look at how “Spiritual weakness” is promoted.

One way a pastor promotes weakness, is by “throwing blankets” on things.
For instance, preaching against having a TV in your home.  This is throwing a blanket over everything that can come out of a TV, as evil or wicked or ungodly.
This is just like throwing a blanket over sex, as evil or wicked and ungodly, when sex in marriage is a pure and beautiful thing.

Every time a preacher preaches against “TV” or “Rock and Roll” or “the internet” etc, he is promoting weakness in his congregation.  Because in reality, none of these things are evil or wicked or ungodly......
“Unto the pure all things [are] pure: but unto them that are defiled and unbelieving [is] nothing pure; but even their mind and conscience is defiled.” (Titus 1:15)

This has been done for hundreds of years and it always brings the same result.  One of my favorite preachers Charles Spurgeon, used to regularly preach against gong to the theater, but the “Downgrade” continued!
------------------------
Now for promoting strength, all a preacher has to do is “PREACH THE WORD”; And not what he has heard other preachers preach about.
You can’t find one single word in the Bible about TV or Secular music, yet a lot of good men preach against these things, because “it is expected out of every solid preacher”, to preach against these things.

If the man of God “Preaches the Word” alone, this will promote Spiritual strength, because it will “GROW” Christians in the faith.
 

Edited by Donald

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Every time a preacher preaches against “TV” or “Rock and Roll” or “the internet” etc, he is promoting weakness in his congregation.  Because in reality, none of these things are evil or wicked or ungodly......


You can’t find one single word in the Bible about TV or Secular music, 

 

Yes Rock-n-Roll is evil, wicked and ungodly.  The term itself promotes sin in more ways than one.

 

When referring to the hellavision and secular music, God gave us principals to follow which can be learned through his Word.  Many of those have to do with the doctrine of separation but the Good Lord also tells us the kinds of music that He wants us to make and sing for Him.  The opposite of which is ungodly and therefore sinful.

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Yes Rock-n-Roll is evil, wicked and ungodly.  The term itself promotes sin in more ways than one.

 

When referring to the hellavision and secular music, God gave us principals to follow which can be learned through his Word.  Many of those have to do with the doctrine of separation but the Good Lord also tells us the kinds of music that He wants us to make and sing for Him.  The opposite of which is ungodly and therefore sinful.

 

Hello swathdiver

As I have said before, the main reason I post here is to be corrected and convinced that I am wrong, so that I can repent: And although I truly believe what I wrote in this OP, I also welcome a convincing argument that will set me straight.

As for the argument that you have presented(with no Scripture).....
I have heard it before and the Holy Spirit doesn’t seem to convict me that it holds water.
------------------------
Yes, I do agree that principles taught in Scripture should guide our lives; Yet I have never seen such principles concerning secular music or entertainment, derived from Scripture.
 

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Yes, if those who hear it will use it instead of thinking its not meant for them but for another person who is setting in the pews.

 

Our only responsibility is PREACHING IT!  (And that is all!)

It’s when we start trying to ..... somehow make it work better, that we start adding to it!
(And encouraging people to trust in “what we have added”, instead of God’s Word!)
 

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Hello swathdiver

As I have said before, the main reason I post here is to be corrected and convinced that I am wrong, so that I can repent: And although I truly believe what I wrote in this OP, I also welcome a convincing argument that will set me straight.

As for the argument that you have presented(with no Scripture).....
I have heard it before and the Holy Spirit doesn’t seem to convict me that it holds water.
------------------------
Yes, I do agree that principles taught in Scripture should guide our lives; Yet I have never seen such principles concerning secular music or entertainment, derived from Scripture.
 

 

 

Do you know the verses that make up the doctrine of separation?  

 

On that basis alone we should separate from nearly all secular music and the hellavision.  

 

How does 1 Corinthians 14:40 "Let all things be done decently and in order" square with Elvis Presley pumping his hips and jumping around on stage to loud music?  Or 5,000 members of a "church" jumping up and down, writhing on the ground to rock music so loud that it hurts your brain?  Or watching a television show where the character mixes Scripture with Eastern Mysticism or scantily clad women or the promotion of alcohol and adultery?

 

As for Godly music, yes, that does take some study and in previous posts we've given the verses here but the principles are best learned by reading the books written by the composers and musicians who've shown us the verses from the Bible.  

Edited by swathdiver

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Our only responsibility is PREACHING IT!  (And that is all!)

It’s when we start trying to ..... somehow make it work better, that we start adding to it!
(And encouraging people to trust in “what we have added”, instead of God’s Word!)
 

 

I don't suppose you saw my if, my if was not placing any blame on the pastor, preacher.

 

A pastor, preacher, has much more responsibility than just preaching. No pastors responsibility ends at the end of the preaching. Although many pastors thinks their only responsibility is to preach, & after preaching they have nothing whatsoever to do until the next preaching service.

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I had intended not to use this thread to “defend” TV or secular music at all; but just to point out how blankets should not be thrown over them, as being completely wicked.

But.... it occurred to me, that an example might be helpful.

Note: Embedded video removed by moderator. Discussion is welcome, but rock music is not permitted on this forum.

--------------------------------------------------
Now these have nothing to do with my “Spiritual life”, but they are pleasant to my ear.

And although they are both just “songs”, I pay close attention to every word of the lyrics or the message they send.  I do this with EVERYTHING in my life, from every sermon I listen to, to every movie I watch, to every song that I listen to.

At this point in my walk with the Lord, I see some of the simple pleasures of this life as being gifts, the Lord has given me to enjoy.
 

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This has nothing to do with your spiritual life? And to think, I thought Jesus was to be the saved person whole life, that is surrender to Him letting Him live though you.If your keeping Him out of part of your life, your not dead to self letting Him live though you.

 

Ga 2:20 I am crucified with Christ: nevertheless I live; yet not I, but Christ liveth in me: and the life which I now live in the flesh I live by the faith of the Son of God, who loved me, and gave himself for me.

 

I fall way of short of this as well.

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This has nothing to do with your spiritual life? And to think, I thought Jesus was to be the saved person whole life, that is surrender to Him letting Him live though you.If your keeping Him out of part of your life, your not dead to self letting Him live though you.

 

Ga 2:20 I am crucified with Christ: nevertheless I live; yet not I, but Christ liveth in me: and the life which I now live in the flesh I live by the faith of the Son of God, who loved me, and gave himself for me.

 

I fall way of short of this as well.

 

But then the Bible says, that God has given us this life to “enjoy”.....
Ecclesiastes 3:12-13
V.12 I know that [there is] no good in them, but for [a man] to rejoice,
and to do good in his life.
V.13 And also that every man should eat and drink, and enjoy the good
of all his labour, it [is] the gift of God.

------------------------
Like I have always said, I DO NOT HAVE ALL THE ANSWERS.

But at this point in my life with Christ, I understand that for some reason, God made our “human bodies” with certain physical and emotional needs; And when we (on our own), turn our back on these needs, it adversely effects our entire life; Including our Spiritual life.  (This is why Jesus needed to take a vacation from His ministry every so often.)

Now, I NEVER take a vacation from my faith; Just as even when Jesus was taking a needed rest, He was still following His Father’s instructions.....

That is enough for now.
 

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You're right Donald, these songs don't feed our spirit, just our flesh.  Please don't take this as us being harsh, just trying to help each other out.

 

There are thousands of fleshly songs that I used to listen to that fed the lust of my flesh.  Just because they are pleasing to our untrained (untrained in the music of God) ears, doesn't mean they are ok to listen to.

 

I liked the song Rocket Man by Elton John.  It played on the tv on the cruise ship all day long, after listening to it for most of my life I finally paid attention to the words, it was about a drug trip!  Many of these songs are memories from my childhood, Saturday mornings spent playing with my parents on the carpet while Dad played his records.  But they are evil and we should serve God and not Man.

 

It's not easy, I had a weak moment last night and played the Wreck of the Edmund Fitzgerald on youtube while I worked.

 

As for the songs posted there are several things wrong with them.  First applies to separation.  Second, the structure and sound of the music is far more important than the lyrics, they're used to control our moods and they do.  Is it Christ-honoring or does it feed the flesh with sorrow or sensualness for example?   Least important are the lyrics, but what message is the author trying to convey?  Does it honor God?

 

Debbie Boone's song, "You Light Up My Life" some have said could be a picture of Jesus Christ.  But one verse says, "It can't be wrong, if it feels so right".  That's contrary to the Bible.  We're to Trust God's Word, not ourselves!  Our hearts are deceitful and desperately wicked.

 

I feel like doing a lot of things but God's Word and the Ten Commandments written on my conscience keeps me in check, sort of.   :icon_rolleyes:

Edited by swathdiver

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We need to be careful to leave room for grace. Not everyone is at the same level of maturity, not in the natural or the spiritual. Not everyone is convicted of the same thing at the same time. There are some things one can do and another can't.

 

Whether music, TV or other forms of entertainment, just because it's not specifically Christian doesn't mean it can't feed ones spirit or that it feeds the flesh. If such were the case we would have to condemn most patriotic and children's songs and stories.

 

I've been in Christ for almost 32 years. I can look back over my life and see many changes during that time. There are forms of entertainment I would have enjoyed at one time that I don't know, and didn't then but do now. Anyone who has been in Christ for some years should be aware of this.

 

I know many good Christians who listen to music I don't, watch shows I don't, enjoy sports and other forms of entertainment I don't, read books I don't, vacation where I wouldn't, etc. One could look at me over the course of my life in Christ and say the same things.

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I know many good Christians who listen to music I don't, watch shows I don't, enjoy sports and other forms of entertainment I don't, read books I don't, vacation where I wouldn't, etc. One could look at me over the course of my life in Christ and say the same things.

 

Correct, but that doesn't make what they're doing right or in Liberty if it doesn't honor the Lord.

 

So to see a fellow church member at a Gaither concert or parking their car at the nude beach doesn't mean its ok because they've been members of the church and in good standing for 20 years.  Wrong is still wrong. 

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Correct, but that doesn't make what they're doing right or in Liberty if it doesn't honor the Lord.

 

So to see a fellow church member at a Gaither concert or parking their car at the nude beach doesn't mean its ok because they've been members of the church and in good standing for 20 years.  Wrong is still wrong. 

I never said that whatever one is doing is necessarily right, only that they may be at a different point of growth than we are and it's possible that's not an area the Lord is dealing with in their lives at the moment.

 

There is nothing wrong with pointing out biblical truth if we do so in kindness and love with the intent to help. The problem comes when we try to force someone to accept what's being said or to change, or we speak ill of them or question their salvation because of that one matter.

 

Just as with soul winning, we are to present the truth and then let the Holy Ghost do His work in the hearers hearts. Too often we try to do the Holy Ghost's job using our own "wisdom and power".

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........

So to see a fellow church member at a Gaither concert.......


Swathdiver, what are you doing at a Gaither concert? You better hope THEY don't see YOU there!

:D :D :D

only joking.... I know what you mean, but you worded it funny.... ;)

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I never said that whatever one is doing is necessarily right, 

 

Just as with soul winning, we are to present the truth and then let the Holy Ghost do His work in the hearers hearts. Too often we try to do the Holy Ghost's job using our own "wisdom and power".

 

Point One:  I didn't mean to convey that John, sorry.  Was trying to expound upon your thought.

 

Point Two:   :amen:  

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Hello HappyChristian
Thanks for your response.

I am going to try hard, not to “defend myself or my posts”: Because they are just not that important.  But I would like to get to the bottom of this issue.

You said....
“Enjoying life doesn't mean hedonism...and enjoying the good of all of a man's labor really doesn't have a lot to do with listening to music that creates fleshly desires in one...”

The most important statement in this paragraph, are the last 7 words...
“music that creates fleshly desires in one”

A Christian should NEVER do ANYTHING, that “creates fleshly desires” in himself.
(This is feeding the flesh!)
-----------------------
Brother, I would not have posted those links to these songs, “if” I thought that there was any danger of them, creating fleshly desires in anyone; And I don’t believe that they do.
What I think is happening here, is more of a “theological” problem, than a “practical” one.

What I mean is, your response talks of hedonism(the pursuit of pleasure and sensual self-indulgence), when my OP is talking about “faith” and how calling something “sin” when it is not “sin”, promotes weak faith.
Now hedonism is sin; But is listening to these songs sin?

When we start to call something sin, that isn’t sin we are creating our own doctrine...
“Howbeit in vain do they worship me, teaching for doctrines the commandments of men.” (Mark 7:7)
--------------------------------------------------
I am also aware that “your background” may be different than mine.
For instance, although I didn’t get saved until the age of 27, I had never sat foot in a bar.  But, people who lived a wild life before they got saved, should avoid the kind of music etc.  they listened to in their old life, so as to avoid being reminded of that old life.

For me, this music doesn’t remind me of anything!
------------------------
I am disappointed in this response, because I don’t believe it got to the heart of our disagreement.
Please bear with me.
 

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Hi swathdiver

You said........
“You're right Donald, these songs don't feed our spirit, just our flesh.  Please don't take this as us being harsh, just trying to help each other out.”

I need all the help I can get.
As for these songs, “feeding my flesh”..... I don’t think they do.
Because they don’t seem to hinder my walk with the Lord at all.

(Although I don’t listen to music while studying or praying, because they distract me.)
But on occasion when I need a distraction, they are useful.
------------------------
You also said.....
“There are thousands of fleshly songs that I used to listen to that fed the lust of my flesh.  Just because they are pleasing to our untrained (untrained in the music of God) ears, doesn't mean they are ok to listen to.”

I believe that my ears have been trained in the area of God’s music.  (I know it and enjoy singing it and listening to it.) But secular songs that “don’t fed the lust of my flesh”, are also pleasant to listen to.
The fact that your background differs from mind, will dictate what each of us should allow ourselves to be exposed to.
------------------------
Next you said.......
“I liked the song Rocket Man by Elton John.  It played on the tv on the cruise ship all day long, after listening to it for most of my life I finally paid attention to the words, it was about a drug trip!  Many of these songs are memories from my childhood, Saturday mornings spent playing with my parents on the carpet while Dad played his records.”

My dad, didn’t show much interest in me, but I did have some music that I liked when I was unsaved.  Oh, by the way; As a young Christian, I decided one day that all of my old music was wicked and that it would be good for me, to burn all of my old records.  So I did.  As I look back on it, this decision didn’t do anything for my Spiritual life, because I was the one who decided to do it.
It wasn’t until years later, when I caught myself resisting the “temptation” to listen to a 50's & 60's radio station, that I asked myself a question; (What was the difference in this “secular” music and all the other “secular” things that I allow myself to experience?)

I realized that if it was “wrong” to listen to secular music, than everything else in my life that was secular must also be “wrong”.  But if it was wrong, why wasn’t the Lord convicting me of it?
------------------------
Now in the last line of your second paragraph you said.....
“But they are evil and we should serve God and not Man.”

Brother, please listen to me; If God has told you that they are evil, than you had better not listen to them; Because THEY ARE EVIL FOR YOU!
------------------------
You also said.....
“It's not easy, I had a weak moment last night and played the Wreck of the Edmund Fitzgerald on youtube while I worked.”

Brother I am truly sorry for that.  I hope and pray that I(this thread), is not responsible.
------------------------
My question about this statement you made....
“As for the songs posted there are several things wrong with them.”
(1)First applies to separation.  (PLEASE EXPLAIN)
(2)Second, the structure and sound of the music is far more important than the lyrics, they're used to control our moods and they do.  (PLEASE EXPLAIN THIS ALSO)
------------------------
This is a good question you asked.......
“Is it Christ-honoring or does it feed the flesh with sorrow or sensualness for example?   Least important are the lyrics, but what message is the author trying to convey?  Does it honor God?”

Years ago, I was thinking about 1 Corinthians 10:31.....
“Whether therefore ye eat, or drink, or whatsoever ye do, do all to the glory of God.”


I asked myself, “how could eating and drinking bring glory to God?”
Well, I realized that for a Christian to be “physically healthy”, brings glory to God.
And in line with this thread, when a Christian is “emotionally healthy”, this also brings glory to God.
------------------------
Finally you said.......
“Debbie Boone's song, "You Light Up My Life" some have said could be a picture of Jesus Christ.  But one verse says, "It can't be wrong, if it feels so right".  That's contrary to the Bible.  We're to Trust God's Word, not ourselves!  Our hearts are deceitful and desperately wicked.
I feel like doing a lot of things but God's Word and the Ten Commandments written on my conscience keeps me in check, sort of.”


The law was our “school master” to bring us to Christ; So I don’t think we should be using it to “keep us in check”: We should allow the Holy Spirit to do that now.
(Oh by the way, I do study the law, because it’s God’s mind and we can learn how God feels about lots of things, by studying it.)

As for having a deceived heart: This is a REAL DANGER!
But if your saved and daily exposing yourself to God’s Word, you will be kept safe from this danger.......
“For the word of God [is] quick, and powerful, and sharper than any twoedged sword, piercing even to the dividing asunder of soul and spirit, and of the joints and marrow, and [is] a discerner of the thoughts and intents of the heart.” (Hebrews 4:12)



Thank you very much swathdiver, for your thoughtful response!
 

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Sometimes we forget that God created our emotions and that emotional responses are part of that. Such can be good or bad, but simply having an emotional response doesn't make it "fleshly" as is all too often put forth.

 

Some preach that any song which we move to in any way is "of the devil", "fleshly", "evil". Meanwhile, we have choirs that sway to the hymns, sometimes clap hands, sometimes move around in other ways. There are times folks in the pews will be tapping their feet and moving around as they sing the hymns. Unless one is thinking sinful thoughts and moving because of that, there's nothing wrong with songs effecting our emotions which impacts our bodies.

 

Some songs, secular and Christian, bring about more or less emotional responses and also bring about more or less that involves our bodies, and may or may not have a positive aspect to us mentally and/or spiritually.

 

I've not yet watched the videos posted above so I'm not specifically speaking of these, just speaking of the issue in general.

 

I've heard preachers denounce any movement at all when any kind of music is played as signs of fleshliness, while they run and jump across the platform, up and down the aisles, from pew to pew, emotions on overdrive, the bodies moving wildly. Hardly a consistent message!

 

Are Christians who tap their toes, clap their hands, sway and move as they sing "I'll Fly Away" really guilty of the lust of the flesh, or are they simply expressing themselves fully, in spirit, mind and body?

 

Who here doesn't like some secular children's songs, or patriotic songs, or some other secular songs and can listen to them or sing them without it being a matter of the evil fleshliness?

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You're right John about body movements.  It's the songs that make one move their torso and hips in sensual ways that are not pleasing to God.  Biblically correct marching songs, tapping of feet and clapping hands are fine as I understand it.  

 

Donald, I will have to take some time in a few days to properly answer your questions.  For now I leave you with this link:

 

http://www.jesus-is-savior.com/Evils%20in%20America/Rock-n-Roll/beach_boys.htm

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But then the Bible says, that God has given us this life to “enjoy”.....
Ecclesiastes 3:12-13
V.12 I know that [there is] no good in them, but for [a man] to rejoice,
and to do good in his life.
V.13 And also that every man should eat and drink, and enjoy the good
of all his labour, it [is] the gift of God.

------------------------
Like I have always said, I DO NOT HAVE ALL THE ANSWERS.

But at this point in my life with Christ, I understand that for some reason, God made our “human bodies” with certain physical and emotional needs; And when we (on our own), turn our back on these needs, it adversely effects our entire life; Including our Spiritual life.  (This is why Jesus needed to take a vacation from His ministry every so often.)

Now, I NEVER take a vacation from my faith; Just as even when Jesus was taking a needed rest, He was still following His Father’s instructions.....

That is enough for now.
 

 

Why is it you feel you have to defend your self?

 

What a child of God enjoys is totally different that what the lost person enjoys.

 

There should be as much difference in the child of God & a lost person as there is in daytime & nighttime. Sad to say for most you can tell no difference, I suppose because so many have never put on the new man.

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Correct, but that doesn't make what they're doing right or in Liberty if it doesn't honor the Lord.

 

So to see a fellow church member at a Gaither concert or parking their car at the nude beach doesn't mean its ok because they've been members of the church and in good standing for 20 years.  Wrong is still wrong. 

 

2Co 10:12 For we dare not make ourselves of the number, or compare ourselves with some that commend themselves: but they measuring themselves by themselves, and comparing themselves among themselves, are not wise.

 

Sad, so many do exactly what this verses says not to do. Instead of measuring our self according to Jesus, we measure our self according to other members of our church family, & or members of other churches. Many do not even shoot for the Bulls-eye, Jesus.

 

Yes, many decide what is right or wrong to do according to what they see other Christians & or churches do, instead of using the Bible as their guide. Its the Bible that is to be used for correction, not other Christians or other churches.

 

2Ti 3:16 All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness:
2Ti 3:17 That the man of God may be perfect, throughly furnished unto all good works.
 
And few know how to divide the Word of the truth, even pastors.
 
2Ti 2:15 Study to shew thyself approved unto God, a workman that needeth not to be ashamed, rightly dividing the word of truth.

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Donald, I want to go back to your original post, and address the issues that have come forth from the discussion.

What you said, and have clarified  would not help the Christian address modern cultural problems from a Biblical view point.  It is my contention that the Bible is correct when it says "there is no new thing under the sun."  Therefore, while technologies and cultures change, the same basic problems continue to present themselves to mankind, albeit under new names, new cultures, or new circumstances.  The same basic root problem is there, and the Lord was kind and gracious enough to address these same basic problems in the word of God.

The preacher then must be able to "rightly divide the word of truth," identify the cultural problems, identify how the Bible counters those problems, and then instruct the Lord's people as to how they should live in this world.

Therefore, it is my conclusion that a real Bible Believing, Spirit-filled, God-called preacher will indeed meet the current issues of the day HEAD ON, with no equivocation, no compromise, and no apologies.  He will spend time in prayer and DEEP STUDY to flush out the truths of these issues from the word of God itself, and then present those studies to his congregation.

I think the bigger problem is that (1) too many preachers are mentally lazy, and don't like to study (I mean REALLY STUDY - not just regurgitate what they learned at Bible College or from somebody else!); and (2) too many preachers have boxed themselves into a very narrow format for preaching (i.e., it must be 30 minutes long, it must have a perfectly alliterated outline, and it must have "xyz"). 

I say forget the format, and FEED THE SHEEP!

 

(For example - some of my sermons run an hour and a half - the subject is too deep to shorten it, and it would be too confusing to make it a series.

Sometimes I use powerpoint with slides, pictures, etc.

Sometimes I draw a picture.

Sometimes I have charts and graphs.

Sometimes the sermon is only 40 minutes.

WHat this requires is for the Pastor to train his congregation to be more open to different presentations, and to not be mentally lazy themselves.  A mentally strong congregation can handle a long sermon, if it substantive enough.  I can remember ONE TIME in the last 5 years when I went too long, and started to lose them at the end....and most of my sermons are 50+ minutes long.)

 

 

Now, let us move on to the particular examples you mentioned.  Please understand that I understand that you gave these as examples so that we could understand where you are going with it.

1.  Just because you don't "feel" conviction about a certain thing does not mean that this is an ACCURATE GAUGE on what the Lord's desires really are.  By this I mean that the Holy Spirit always speaks in that "still, small voice,"  Is it not possible that the Lord DID convict you about that thing, but that you dismissed it, and buried it?  Is it not possible that the Lord has let you have your way on this matter, even if it is to your own destruction? 

(Please understand - I am not passing judgment on any particular issue, but only attempting to present another view point!)

2.  The only way to really determine what kind of music is appropriate for the Christian is to study every single verse on the subject in the Bible, then educate yourself to the best of your ability on the subject of music, and then take into consider the general guiding principles of the Christian life.  (For this last point, Ephesians 5:1-21, II Cor. 6:13-18, Romans 14, Luke 16:15 all seem appropriate for starters!)  If you have not done this, then you have not done your due diligence in seeking the truth on the matter.  Since you stated on another post that you have previously pastored churches for over 20 years, then you have no excuse on this, and I will not cut you any slack.  You were the leader, and it was your responsibility to do this. 

Of course all of this study avails NOTHING if not bathed in prayer from a sincere, honest heart seeking the absolute truth.

 

Regarding the Glass Toilet

Certainly TV can be used for good - and it has.  But this modern entertainment trash does nothing but promote all values contrary to the word of God.  As a society, are we better off after 100 years of movies, TV, etc., or are we worse off? 

The problem now is that EVERYONE has a TV (or so it seems - I speak generally here!).  But should we not still warn our congregation about the influence of the programming?  Should we not warn them about wasting all that time feeding their flesh, when they won't read their Bible, pray, or witness?  Oh yes, it most certainly is within the Preacher's purview to preach against the Glass Toilet if for no other reason than to remind his congregation of just how wicked THEY are in allowing that trash in their homes to begin with.  After all, if they had any sense, they would be more careful as to what they exposed their children to, not to mention themselves, right?  I mean, how much more love and zeal for the Lord would they have if they just got rid of the junk? 

 

So it is not making our congregations "weaker" to instruct them on what the Bible says about pop culture - because the Bible does in fact speak to these matters.  In fact, I consider it my responsibility to help our people see how the Bible fits into these issues, whether it be politics, music, TV, entertainment, dress, abortion, drugs, alcohol, tattoos, sodomy, etc.  The Bible addresses every issue known to mankind - if not directly, then in principle.  (Case in point - the Bible does not say directly "Rock-n-roll music" but it speaks VOLUMES on the subject in general - enough for us to draw sound conclusions from, if we really want it!)

 

Now, setting up Pastoral Dictatorship - that will make a congregation weaker, because they are depending on a MAN to tell them what to do instead of God's word.

 

In Christ,

Edited by Steve Schwenke

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Hello Steve Schwenke

Thank you very much for your thoughtful response.
This is EXACTLY what I have come here for!

I have indeed been called to preach and to be a pastor and have pastured 3 Baptist Churches over the last 23 years.  And although I am presently “between Churches”, I am SURE, that the LORD has plans for me in the future; And I am SURE that the Lord is using me today to minister in several different areas, even though I don’t have a pulpit.

I much appreciate your warning.......
“I think the bigger problem is that (1) too many preachers are mentally lazy, and don't like to study (I mean REALLY STUDY - not just regurgitate what they learned at Bible College or from somebody else!)”

I praise the Lord for so wonderfully protecting me from having been “overly influenced” by “man’s opinion” of what God has said in His Word.  The circumstances that the Lord has arranged for me to be in, for the last 25 years has forced me to grow more and more dependent upon “His Word” and “His Still small voice” alone, and I have not found myself “wanting” for “daily” light and instruction.
------------------------
You also said....
“1.  Just because you don't "feel" conviction about a certain thing does not mean that this is an ACCURATE GAUGE on what the Lord's desires really are.  By this I mean that the Holy Spirit always speaks in that "still, small voice,"  Is it not possible that the Lord DID convict you about that thing, but that you dismissed it, and buried it?  Is it not possible that the Lord has let you have your way on this matter, even if it is to your own destruction?”

This is wonderful advice and instruction.  “Thank you”.

Yes, for more than 20 years or so, I have made this QUESTION, the #1 concern of my life; In light of what the Bible says on this subject.....
Proverbs 16:25
“There is a way that seemeth right unto a man, but the end thereof [are] the ways of death.”


and

Jeremiah 17:9-10
V.9 The heart [is] deceitful above all [things], and desperately wicked: who can know it?
V.10 I the LORD search the heart, try the reins, even to give every man according to his ways, [and] according to the fruit of his doings.


The fact is, our most important responsibility in life is to be “obedient” to the Lord.....

Ecclesiastes 12:13
“Let us hear the conclusion of the whole matter: Fear God, and keep his commandments: for this [is] the whole [duty] of man.”


And I saw the danger of being “self deceived”, as my greatest danger in this area.

For years, I prayed and studied and petitioned the LORD, for an answer and a victory in this area; Realizing that if I was “deceiving myself” about my walk with the Lord than I couldn’t be SURE about any decision that I made.
Then one day, as I was reciting a memory verse, the Lord showed me the answer within that verse.......
Hebrews 4:12
“For the word of God [is] quick, and powerful, and sharper than any twoedged sword, piercing even to the dividing asunder of soul and spirit, and of the joints and marrow, and [is] a discerner of the thoughts and intents of the heart.”


The Lord showed me the truth about the last line in this verse.....
“...a discerner of the thoughts and intents of the heart.”
Any self deception, would involve “the thoughts and intents of my heart”; That is, I would be lying to my self about my true motives, etc.
And He showed me, that as long as I am “SINCERELY” studying His Word and HONESTLY looking for and being open to the truth; That HIS WORD would convict me about any hypocrisy in my life, every time I studied it.
------------------------
Now, although I am DAILY exposing myself to God’s Word, by meticulously studying it, I am still open to the possibility that I may be misinterpreting His Word or overlooking something for selfish or sinful reasons.
(Some people might call this “overkill”, in being so concerned about my walk with the Lord; But NOTHING is more important than our Spiritual life).....
Matthew 16:26
“For what is a man profited, if he shall gain the whole world, and lose his own soul? or what shall a man give in exchange for his soul?”

------------------------
With all that said, yes I am relatively sure that my “lack of conviction”, is an “accurate gauge” of the Lord’s desire “FOR ME”!
That is, I know that the LORD has different “desires” for each of us.  What is perfectly fine for one Christian, may be SIN for another Christain.

I am ABSOLUTELY SURE that it is a sin for SOME CHRISTIANS to listen to Rock and roll music or to watch TV.  But.....this is not true for ALL CHRISTIANS!
(Each of us need to learn to listen to God’s still small voice TO US, to determine what HE wants us to be doing or not doing!)

And this is the point of my OP:
“A PASTOR THAT PREACHES, THAT "ROCK AND ROLL" or "TV", is always sin for everybody, is preventing the people in his congregation from learning to listen to the Lord’s still small voice on their own!”

Years ago, I realized one of the most DAMAGING things about “legalistic Churches”, was that they STUNTED THE GROWTH of their congregation!
One of the chief ways a Christian “GROWS IN THE FAITH”, is by learning to listen to the Holy Spirit’s instructions to them.

But a pastor who tries to take the Holly Spirit’s place, by setting up “extra-biblical” rules, like a dress code or the personal practices of their congregation at home; Prevents those Christians, from learning to listen the Lord’s voice on their own.

For sure, we should preach against the sins of “Lust” & “Pride” & “Covetousness”; And warn our people about the real dangers this wicked world holds for them.  But, when we start preaching our “personal convictions” as “doctrinal truth”, we have crossed the line.....
Mark 7:7
“Howbeit in vain do they worship me, teaching [for] doctrines the commandments of men.”

------------------------
Also your warning about how the Lord will “let us have our own way”, is right on target.

The LORD will not force his will on any of us.  If we get it into our mind, that we are going to do something, regardless of what the Bible says(or doesn’t say) about it and we stop listening to Him....  (He will let us have our way!)

Every single day, I pray these words.......
“....Father you know how serious
I am about staying in the center
of your will... if I stray from your
will and I stop listening to you...
Please, do “What ever it takes”,
to get my attention!”

This is an exact quote from my daily prayer list.
--------------------------------------------------
Also, you said.......
“2.  The only way to really determine what kind of music is appropriate for the Christian is to study every single verse on the subject in the Bible, then educate yourself to the best of your ability on the subject of music, and then take into consider the general guiding principles of the Christian life.  (For this last point, Ephesians 5:1-21, II Cor. 6:13-18, Romans 14, Luke 16:15 all seem appropriate for starters!)  If you have not done this, then you have not done your due diligence in seeking the truth on the matter.  Since you stated on another post that you have previously pastored churches for over 20 years, then you have no excuse on this, and I will not cut you any slack.  You were the leader, and it was your responsibility to do this.
Of course all of this study avails NOTHING if not bathed in prayer from a sincere, honest heart seeking the absolute truth.”



This is also GREAT!  
I especially like the Scripture references you mentioned.
(Good stuff.)

But the part of this paragraph that pertains to this thread, was the fist line.......
“The only way to really determine what kind of music is appropriate for the Christian”

This is at the heart of my OP and the question that I am wanting to get to the bottom of.
------------------------
The way I see it NOW: Is that “different music” is appropriate for “different Christians”!
(As long as the said music, is not wicked or sinful or attacking the truth of God’s Word.)
-An innocent song about surfing or having to work for a living or a marriage relationship, that is not promoting wicked behavior, is just fine to enjoy.-
As long as it is Okey with the Lord(FOR YOU).

The idea that “a kind of music”, is inappropriate for every Christian, just doesn’t seem to be Biblical.  And yes, the TV is a “Glass Toilet”, if you watch broadcast televison programs.  They will teach you the exact opposite of what God’s Word teaches.
But so will the internet.

The problem today isn’t the TV, but the Christian who doesn’t follow the direction of the Holy Spirit in their life.

Instead of a pastor telling people to get red of their TV’s, he should be teaching them to listen to God’s leadership, in what they should be watching.

(Now I know, that this is ineffective advice today; Because most Christians have stopped listening to the Lord’s voice at all.  But the answer isn’t for us to give up and simply dictate to them what they should be doing.)

In fact, I don’t have all the answers.
(But I believe your post, does give us a lot of great advice.)

 

Sorry for being so long winded, but it just seemed to flow...

 

Have a good night

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      Ironically, it is by His word that His enemies become His friends. His word is able to cut through the smoke screen they put up. It is able to see through all the evil thoughts and intents of their heart. All excuses are put aside by it and the reality of their lost condition is brought out into the light of day.
    • By Standing Firm In Christ
      Romans 7:4 Wherefore, my brethren, ye also are become dead to the law by the body of Christ; that ye should be married to another, even to him who is raised from the dead, that we should bring forth fruit unto God.
       
      Romans 7:6 But now we are delivered from the law, that being dead wherein we were held; that we should serve in newness of spirit, and not in the oldness of the letter.
      Why is it today that so many Christians have no qualms about committing spiritual adultery? They attest that they are married to Christ Jesus, yet they subject themselves to the bed of the Law by insisting they must obey certain of the Mosaic/Levitic Laws?
      The one who professes faith in Christ will never walk in total victory until that one comes to the realization that if he is in Christ, he is freed from the Law.
      Galatians 3:24-25 Wherefore the law was our schoolmaster to bring us unto Christ, that we might be justified by faith. But after that faith is come, we are no longer under a schoolmaster.
      Does this mean we are free to steal, kill, covet, take the Lord's name in vain, etc.? In the words of the Apostle Paul, God forbid! Those who are Christ's have put on Christ. They have no desire to do the things that are evil in God's eyes. They don't want to steal, kill, covet, take the Lord's name in vain, etc.. Rather, they want to do that which is pleasing in His sight.
       
      1 Timothy 1:8-10 But we know that the law is good, if a man use it lawfully; Knowing this, that the law is not made for a righteous man, but for the lawless and disobedient, for the ungodly and for sinners, for unholy and profane, for murderers of fathers and murderers of mothers, for manslayers, For whoremongers, for them that defile themselves with mankind, for menstealers, for liars, for perjured persons, and if there be any other thing that is contrary to sound doctrine;
      The Law is for the unrighteous. The righteous have been delivered from the Law for they have put on Christ through faith.
      Galatians 2:20 I am crucified with Christ: nevertheless I live; yet not I, but Christ liveth in me: and the life which I now live in the flesh I live by the faith of the Son of God, who loved me, and gave himself for me.
      The Apostle James wrote "Submit yourselves therefore to God. Resist the devil, and he will flee from you." If you keep your eyes on Jesus, you will have less occasion to stumble on your journey through life. If you truly love the Lord, you don't need the Law, for you will not want to do the things that require the judgments for breaking the Law.
      Turn your eyes upon Jesus,
      Look full in His wonderful face
      And the things of Earth will grow strangely dim
      In the light of His Glory and Grace.
       
    • By Wannason2
      What and Why?
                                                                   6/23/02
      Today is Sunday
      It’s the Lord’s day
      Time to try and protect your soul
      And worship his name
       
      God must have a plan
      Something I still must do
      What, I just don’t know
      I should have been killed
      Why that truck hit me on that road
      I’ve a feeling my task
      Concerns people living in the street
      Maybe my poems of street life
      And hard times
      Are the key to what I need.
      This is a new skill
      I just didn’t know I had
      I just started writing one day
      Around my birthday,
      It’s a puzzle that I have to solve.
       
      It stays in the front of my mind
      It’s all I think of
      The Lord will let me know,
      In His own way
      All I know to do
      Is be patient
      And pray.
       
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