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irishman

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Many "good" preachers preach the "Gospel", but they preach a works doctrine.  If a man thinks he has to "be good enough" to keep from losing his salvation, he believes in a works doctrine.  if works could keep us saved, they would suffice to save us in the first place!

 

We are not saved by works, nor are we kept by works, but both by the grace of God.

 

There are many strange and unorthodox beliefs that hve crept in to Baptist doctrine.  One is that those who claim the name of Christ and yet believe they have to live right to remain saved, are actually saved (those of different faiths, unless they are "doctrinally" in tune with Baptist beliefs.)

Edited by irishman

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Many "good" preachers preach the "Gospel", but they preach a works doctrine.  If a man thinks he has to "be good enough" to keep from losing his salvation, he believes in a works doctrine.  if works could keep us saved, they would suffice to save us in the first place!

 

We are not saved by works, nor are we kept by works, but both by the grace of God.

 

There are many strange and unorthodox beliefs that hve crept in to Baptist doctrine.  One is that those who claim the name of Christ and yet believe they have to live right to remain saved, are actually saved (those of different faiths, unless they are "doctrinally" in tune with Baptist beliefs.)

 

I hadn't heard of this one, can you expound on it?

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I met a fella once who had been baptized 4 times "to cover his bases" and make sure he gets to heaven.  He believed in grace alone through faith alone and in being good and maintaining a relationship with Christ, for if one didn't they had to do it again.  That poor fella wasn't saved because he did not really believe that Jesus could save, did pay the price for our sins.  He was still trusting in his own works.  This was taught in SBC and Nazarene churches too.

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I have just been dealing with this issue on a yahoo group I belong to. It started with the Sabbath, but has grown into the idea of having to keep the law, and now, one wonders why we should be expected to keep the law if there are not eternal consequences to keep one in line. Basically, like in Galatians, saved by the Spirit, but completed in the flesh through the law. Its like there's a complete misunderstanding of what Jesus did on the cross, how He is "the end of the law for righteousness to all those who believe".

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We have a group of people here called "free will Baptist" who believe one sin right before death and one is doomed to hell. They will say something like, "I've backslide I need to get resaved". They are a very sincere group.

 

For me, I have to rely on Jesus' grace. The flesh can never live up to righteousness.

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We have free will baptists around us too.  Many of them are the parents of our IFB members!  Thank God their children are saved.

 

I could never be good enough to get to heaven.  I would give up.  No point in being Free Will, Nazarene, Jehovah's Witness or Adventism, too much work.  Christ would have to die 100+ times a day for me to get to heaven contradicting Hebrews 6 all day long.

 

Thank God he saved me by his free gift of grace when I made repentance towards God and put my faith, my trust, turned my life over to Jesus Christ, my Lord and Savior.

 

Now, the good works that I do are because I love Him, not me, to set examples for my family and children and to lay up treasures in heaven!

 

As The Preacher says everything else is vanity!

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I've been in several Baptist churches, as well as a couple of Assembly of God churches, where every week or two certain people would continually go forward during the altar call. Some went forward "to make sure" while others responded to the "rededicate your life" call, which most who responded to this were of the "I better make sure" mindset.

 

I certainly wouldn't say all of these were not saved. In fact, I think some were, but it was after they were saved they heard preaching or teaching that made them wonder, or they were being confused by the devil.

 

Scripture commands us to examine our faith to make sure we are biblically saved. That's a good thing. However, when we examine the matter we are to be digging into Scripture in order to determine if we have been biblically saved. If so, we are to thank God and move forward from there. Most of those who keep going forward, repeating "sinners prayers", and such never do an actual biblical examination. This is usually because they don't know how or even that they should. Again, another major reason Scripture calls us to make disciples, not "converts".

 

In churches where the same people continually come forward for salvation or rededications, it's likely there is also a problem with the pastor. A biblically grounded pastor would know these same people constantly coming before him for salvation or rededication are in need of his counsel and need to be discipled. Which leads to the question, why do so many pastors allow the same folks to keep coming forward as they do?

 

Over the years I've seen many who were probably biblically saved, yet after that for one reason or another they began to worry about their salvation, with some going through that "getting saved" event over and over again as they try to find assurance.

 

In my own walk with the Lord, I experienced some worry and doubts during the first year or so after I was saved. I didn't recognize it at the time, but it was the work of the devil influencing my mind. Thankfully I was finally introduced to the biblical principle of "once saved, always saved", along with the proof of it's biblical reality. The devil could then no longer torment my mind in that area because I KNEW I was saved and moved forward in my walk with Christ.

 

We need to disciple all we are able to.

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I've been in several Baptist churches, as well as a couple of Assembly of God churches, where every week or two certain people would continually go forward during the altar call. Some went forward "to make sure" while others responded to the "rededicate your life" call, which most who responded to this were of the "I better make sure" mindset.

 

I certainly wouldn't say all of these were not saved. In fact, I think some were, but it was after they were saved they heard preaching or teaching that made them wonder, or they were being confused by the devil.

 

Scripture commands us to examine our faith to make sure we are biblically saved. That's a good thing. However, when we examine the matter we are to be digging into Scripture in order to determine if we have been biblically saved. If so, we are to thank God and move forward from there. Most of those who keep going forward, repeating "sinners prayers", and such never do an actual biblical examination. This is usually because they don't know how or even that they should. Again, another major reason Scripture calls us to make disciples, not "converts".

 

In churches where the same people continually come forward for salvation or rededications, it's likely there is also a problem with the pastor. A biblically grounded pastor would know these same people constantly coming before him for salvation or rededication are in need of his counsel and need to be discipled. Which leads to the question, why do so many pastors allow the same folks to keep coming forward as they do?

 

Over the years I've seen many who were probably biblically saved, yet after that for one reason or another they began to worry about their salvation, with some going through that "getting saved" event over and over again as they try to find assurance.

 

In my own walk with the Lord, I experienced some worry and doubts during the first year or so after I was saved. I didn't recognize it at the time, but it was the work of the devil influencing my mind. Thankfully I was finally introduced to the biblical principle of "once saved, always saved", along with the proof of it's biblical reality. The devil could then no longer torment my mind in that area because I KNEW I was saved and moved forward in my walk with Christ.

 

We need to disciple all we are able to.

I taught yesterday on 2Peter 1, about Christian growth. I suspect most people are in the thinking of "Am I reeeeeally saved?", because they have never really grown as a Christian. The passage in 2Peter says that if these things, thiese steps of growth are not in you, you are spiritually blind and may even forget that you have been purged of your old sins. There's a danger to not growing!  I remember being there when I was a younger man, unstudied and carnal. Its a sad place to be; praise God He never lets us go!

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I taught yesterday on 2Peter 1, about Christian growth. I suspect most people are in the thinking of "Am I reeeeeally saved?", because they have never really grown as a Christian. The passage in 2Peter says that if these things, thiese steps of growth are not in you, you are spiritually blind and may even forget that you have been purged of your old sins. There's a danger to not growing!  I remember being there when I was a younger man, unstudied and carnal. Its a sad place to be; praise God He never lets us go!

That's so very true! I so wish there had been someone there to disciple me when I was first saved. I did get into the Word but so much of it was confusing to me at the time and not knowing any better I spent much time in the OT which got me thinking I needed to be keeping the rules or maybe I wasn't saved, or that I must not be a good Christian because I'm not keeping all these rules. I had no understanding of grace at that time, nor of the differences between the Old Covenant and New Covenant. I'm so thankful the Lord finally placed a grounded Christian friend in my life and he introduced me to his Baptist pastor.

 

We really need to be helping to disciple folks. We are called to make disciples but most often we only make "converts". If those "converts" are making a false profession and we leave them alone they may go the rest of their lives with a false hope. If those "converts" are saved and we leave them alone they may be stuck as a babe in Christ, get caught up in false teaching or a number of other bad things.

 

Rather than just knocking on doors or witnessing in the park and then counting our "success and failure" based upon those who prayed to accept Christ, we need to also disciple those who say those prayers or have teams of others ready to disciple these people.

 

We see many examples in the NT of the amount of time put into discipling. Jesus called us to make disciples but somewhere along the line it seems we decided to simply make "converts" and move on.

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I've been in Baptist Churches most of my life yet I've never been part of a Baptist church where the same ones keeps coming forward over & over & again & again throughout the years.

 

Through the years I've seen some come forward to rededicate their lives.

 

I've seen a  few come forward to confess sins because they had brought embarrassment on Jesus, on their church & church family, & they wanted to ask for forgiveness.

 

I've seen some that came forward to tell the pastor their flesh had been getting the best of them & asking their church family to pray for them.

 

I've seen a very few come forward for they discovered they've never really been saved.  

 

I've seen some come forward because they have just been saved, or & want to be saved.

 

I've seen a few come forward because they wanted to join the church by letter, & I've seen some come forward to join by statement of faith.

 

I also seen a few come forward that had been members of churches that teach works based salvation & while attending a Baptist Church they discovered they were not saved wanting the pastor to show them how to be saved.

 

The only blame I could place on the pastors in my past for people coming forward is because the messages they had been hearing the pastor preach while attending these churches were godly messages & they brought convictions upon them & they felt the need to do something about it.

 

Yet in latter years in Baptist Churches it seems to have become few & far between with people coming forward except for having been saved & or wanting to be saved & or wanting to join that church.

 

And of course I know that others attending other churches can have a completely different experiences than what I've had in the churches I've been a part of.

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I, for one, do not understand doubting our salvation.  I have never done so as far as I can recollect.  To doubt our salvation is to doubt Christ and his ability to save us miraculously.  Many times however, I have doubted ME, and continue to do so.  It seems that doubting stems from looking at works, and not at Christ; if we "went through the motions" only we can know for sure if we were truly saved--if we were really sincere.

 

I have a friend that constantly doubts his salvation, he wonders if he "said the right things" to get saved.  He asks me whenever he calls, "Marty, am I really saved?"  Then tells me that he's "working on it".  This man is a schizophrenic though, and messed up his mind from sniffing glue.  (I had a ministry for the handicapped; we even had a bus with a lift, and went to rest homes to pick them up.  A blessed ministry, for a forgotten people.)

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I, for one, do not understand doubting our salvation.  I have never done so as far as I can recollect.  To doubt our salvation is to doubt Christ and his ability to save us miraculously.  Many times however, I have doubted ME, and continue to do so.  It seems that doubting stems from looking at works, and not at Christ; if we "went through the motions" only we can know for sure if we were truly saved--if we were really sincere.

 

I have a friend that constantly doubts his salvation, he wonders if he "said the right things" to get saved.  He asks me whenever he calls, "Marty, am I really saved?"  Then tells me that he's "working on it".  This man is a schizophrenic though, and messed up his mind from sniffing glue.  (I had a ministry for the handicapped; we even had a bus with a lift, and went to rest homes to pick them up.  A blessed ministry, for a forgotten people.)

Yes, we have a fellow in our church who is thrice damaged: once from birth, nce from drugs and alcohol, and once, as a result from the alcohol, he drove over a cliff and got brain damage. He's coherent, and you can talk to him, but he's got a lot of problems. He often goes on rants about herbal medicine, which used to be code for marijuana, which he used to use for effects from the accident, but one day he told me the Lord told him, no more marijuana, he threw away $300.00 worth and has never touched it again. But he still believes in herbs for medicine and truly believe the Bible speaks volumes on the subject, even though I tell him its not the case. And he used to go forward all the time to pray, though he is saved, and I have seen fruit in him, though he's limited. He loves to pass out tracts, ad its great because he doesn't care if someone gets offended, which is what stops many people from such things.

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I, for one, do not understand doubting our salvation.  I have never done so as far as I can recollect.  To doubt our salvation is to doubt Christ and his ability to save us miraculously.  Many times however, I have doubted ME, and continue to do so.  It seems that doubting stems from looking at works, and not at Christ; if we "went through the motions" only we can know for sure if we were truly saved--if we were really sincere.

 

Ah, you're one of 'those' ones. :wink I have a friend like you. He trusted Christ and never doubted, and could never understand why I was doubting.  Your estimation of the cause is accurate. When I went through my doubting period, it was basically because I couldn't remember if I had 'repented properly' and or 'believed right.'  I didn't get assurance until I quite consciously stopped looking at myself and just clung to the promises in God's Word.

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Ah, you're one of 'those' ones. :wink I have a friend like you. He trusted Christ and never doubted, and could never understand why I was doubting.  Your estimation of the cause is accurate. When I went through my doubting period, it was basically because I couldn't remember if I had 'repented properly' and or 'believed right.'  I didn't get assurance until I quite consciously stopped looking at myself and just clung to the promises in God's Word.

AMEN!

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Ah, you're one of 'those' ones. :wink I have a friend like you. He trusted Christ and never doubted, and could never understand why I was doubting.  Your estimation of the cause is accurate. When I went through my doubting period, it was basically because I couldn't remember if I had 'repented properly' and or 'believed right.'  I didn't get assurance until I quite consciously stopped looking at myself and just clung to the promises in God's Word.

My wife was raised Catholic and about a year after getting saved fought the "did it or said it right" battle. About 6 months later she got victory, the verse the Lord used was John 6:37  "All that the Father giveth me shall come to me; and him that cometh to me I will in no wise cast out."

 

This came up in a discussion once and our son-in-law said "That's a Calvinist verse" to which my wife replied "There are no Calvinist, Armenian, Catholic, or anyone else verses --- that's a BIBLE verse!"

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Probably the majority of people who have doubts about their salvation are part of a church that teaches works based salvation without eternal security. that is they teach their members you can be lost one day, saved the next, them lost again tomorrow. And of course the majority of churches teaches a works base salvation.

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It is only logical to believe that an eternal God gives eternal gifts, such as salvation.  Yes, salvation is a gift, given freely to all that ask for it, and it is an eternal gift, even as God is an eternal God.  It is unmerited, and undeserved, yet given from a heart of love.  So, is God so fickle as to give us a gift, and then take it back if we don’t “toe the line”?  That is the question before us here, is God likely to love us enough while we were “yet sinners” and then abandon us later when we prove it?  He knows us through and through, and there are no surprises with Him as far as our flesh is concerned.  He already knew, at the time He saved us, that we would sin again, and He knew to what depths that sin would take us, but He saved us any way!  
 

Eternal security is:

Scriptural;

Logical;

and loving.

 

and, as bro. Jerry mentioned, most denominations DO NOT teach or believe it.  Even many of the old preachers who have gone on to their reward, and may have brought revival to our country preached a works doctrine.  John Wesley did, as I have read one of his sermons!  Andrew Murray does, and promotes Lordship salvation (works).  Even Billy Sunday may have preached works doctrine while he nearly brought prohibition to America.

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I've been in several Baptist churches, as well as a couple of Assembly of God churches, where every week or two certain people would continually go forward during the altar call. Some went forward "to make sure" while others responded to the "rededicate your life" call, which most who responded to this were of the "I better make sure" mindset.

 

I certainly wouldn't say all of these were not saved. In fact, I think some were, but it was after they were saved they heard preaching or teaching that made them wonder, or they were being confused by the devil.

 

Scripture commands us to examine our faith to make sure we are biblically saved. That's a good thing. However, when we examine the matter we are to be digging into Scripture in order to determine if we have been biblically saved. If so, we are to thank God and move forward from there. Most of those who keep going forward, repeating "sinners prayers", and such never do an actual biblical examination. This is usually because they don't know how or even that they should. Again, another major reason Scripture calls us to make disciples, not "converts".

 

In churches where the same people continually come forward for salvation or rededications, it's likely there is also a problem with the pastor. A biblically grounded pastor would know these same people constantly coming before him for salvation or rededication are in need of his counsel and need to be discipled. Which leads to the question, why do so many pastors allow the same folks to keep coming forward as they do?

 

Over the years I've seen many who were probably biblically saved, yet after that for one reason or another they began to worry about their salvation, with some going through that "getting saved" event over and over again as they try to find assurance.

 

In my own walk with the Lord, I experienced some worry and doubts during the first year or so after I was saved. I didn't recognize it at the time, but it was the work of the devil influencing my mind. Thankfully I was finally introduced to the biblical principle of "once saved, always saved", along with the proof of it's biblical reality. The devil could then no longer torment my mind in that area because I KNEW I was saved and moved forward in my walk with Christ.

 

We need to disciple all we are able to.

The church where I am now used to have, from what I can tell of gossip, a very good, fundamental preacher.  In fact, the members talk bad of him, and I walk away thinking "how wonderful he must have been."  (It does give me alot to preach about for their sakes.)  Anyway, this preacher would preach and the members would go away questioning their salvation.  This happened alot of times.  Not because the preacher was asking them to question their own salvation, just this mans preaching caused this to happen.  It so bothered them, you know what they did?  They did not search the Scriptures to see if they were saved, they got rid of the preacher!!  My brother-in-law questions whether they are saved in the first place and if it was the Holy Spirit convicting them that was making them uncomfortable.  After being here over a year, I am thinking the same thing. 

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The church where I am now used to have, from what I can tell of gossip, a very good, fundamental preacher.  In fact, the members talk bad of him, and I walk away thinking "how wonderful he must have been."  (It does give me alot to preach about for their sakes.)  Anyway, this preacher would preach and the members would go away questioning their salvation.  This happened alot of times.  Not because the preacher was asking them to question their own salvation, just this mans preaching caused this to happen.  It so bothered them, you know what they did?  They did not search the Scriptures to see if they were saved, they got rid of the preacher!!  My brother-in-law questions whether they are saved in the first place and if it was the Holy Spirit convicting them that was making them uncomfortable.  After being here over a year, I am thinking the same thing. 

 

 

Wow.... you've got quite the road to travel there!

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The church where I am now used to have, from what I can tell of gossip, a very good, fundamental preacher.  In fact, the members talk bad of him, and I walk away thinking "how wonderful he must have been."  (It does give me alot to preach about for their sakes.)  Anyway, this preacher would preach and the members would go away questioning their salvation.  This happened alot of times.  Not because the preacher was asking them to question their own salvation, just this mans preaching caused this to happen.  It so bothered them, you know what they did?  They did not search the Scriptures to see if they were saved, they got rid of the preacher!!  My brother-in-law questions whether they are saved in the first place and if it was the Holy Spirit convicting them that was making them uncomfortable.  After being here over a year, I am thinking the same thing. 

Pray for them to get saved or get out. I have done this to great effect-we have had, in the past, many who were not in one accord, so much so that it hurt the spirit in the church-we prayed that they would get roight/get saved, or get out. Many left, and as each left, we saw door open and folks come. Those who left, we prayed for, and many have remained in touch and remained friends, and got in other churches and are doing well. Only one have I had to actually remove from the church due to her attitude.

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