An Error Taught By Many

[LindaR]

Hello John81

You said.......
The tithe aspect I mentioned because that's how I've heard IFB pastors raise the issue of prosperity for believers. They teach specifically that if a Christian tithes, and gives more afterward, then they will be blessed financially. Along with this is the teaching that if they don't tithe, God "will get His tithe" in some other way; at which point some IFB pastors start talking about God taking His tithe by causing non-tithing believers cars to break down, or to have a serious health problem, or lose their jobs.

Thus far, I've never heard an IFB pastor preach on this aspect without using the tithe as their basis for why the congregation would be financially rewarded by God, or punished by God.

Some pastors go so far as to accuse poorer members of their church of not tithing, even when they are giving a tenth each Sunday, saying that if they were truly tithing they would have more money. That's not right on many levels.

I've heard IFB pastors give virtually the same sermon on this issue that is heard from some of the TV prosperity preachers. They tell believers to tithe and God will bless them a hundred fold. Then they tell them to keep tithing after they get more money and God will keep increasing their money a hundredfold.

It sounds like you have visited my Church.
This is exactly what my pastor says, almost every week.

As expected; This must be a “regular teaching”, in most IFB Churches!
(What a shame!)

 

We have God’s Word and a life changing Gospel message, and we get sidetracked by a love of money!
 

The very same thing was taught in the IFB church where we were members for almost 7 years until they voted us out last September (secretly).  The reason we were voted out is because we openly came against the teaching of the monetary tithe.  After so many years of keeping our mouths shut, we decided to speak out.  It gets old when you are continually told by your pastor that you will be "cursed by God" if you don't tithe.

[irishman]

Looks life we have a debate going!  I actually agree with much that was said, and I do not need to defend tithing, already did that here.  Anyway, one thing I liked; if we give to get, we give for the wrong reasons.  If we give out of fear of repercussions, then we are not honoring God in our giving.  There are principles for giving, and we should search them out instead of worrying about it.  I suppose that each of us would try to do right if we knew what was right to do. 

 

I could quote many verses (with my concordance) about prosperity, but it would behoove all of us to look the verses up for themselves--let the Word of God speak.  It seems that for every verse we cite that is pro, someone cites a verse that is con, this is confusion, and not acceptable in an orderly Baptist church.  Unfortunately, that is the case in every debate here; We have those that are for, and those that are against, and we all have verses to support our own theories.  Too bad that the Word is drawn in question among its believers!

 

Without keeping our eyes on riches, we can realize the goodness and mercies of God in providing our needs, and even our "wants" at times.  (If we desire the right things in our "wants".)

 

By the way, the same attitude pertains to rewards, we often mention the loss or gain of reward for service to the Lord.  If we do things merely for reward, we may be surprised at the Bema seat, and find ourselves wanting.  It is reward enough to merely serve a living Savior, and to be known and blessed by the Almighty God.

[Standing Firm In Christ]

Sorry Irishman, but you actually have not defended tithing. All you have done to defend tithing falls flat when held up against Scripture.

[John81]

While I certainly disagree with the proserity preachers, I also disagree with the idea that Jesus was poor, too poor to own a home or pay His taxes. Indeed, Jesus, along with the 12, kept a 'purse', in which they kept a fund, apparently to buy bread and such things as they might need. IN fact, when Jesus was speaking to the Samaritan woman, the disciples were gone to buy food

The point with Jesus and His disciples, is that they gave up everything, not that they had nothing. Jesus apparenty had a house with His mother and brethren where He lived until His ministry began, I would assume. He is said to have gone home from time to time during His ministry, as well. But His work was not to be a carpenter once His ministry began-it was to preach the gospel to the entire nation of Israel, which would have been difficult, had He had a home to care for-she He became a circut-riding, (or walking)  preacher.

 

And obviously, if jesus could pull money out of the mouths of fish, He was hardly 'poor', eh?

Plus, as a carpenter, prior to beginning His ministry, Jesus and Joseph were probably bringing in a good living with such a valued skill. There were many mouths to feed, besides Jesus, Joseph and Mary, we are told Mary and Joseph had several children together.

 

Scripture denounces the pursuit of riches for riches sake. Making good money and prospering isn't in itself wrong. It's what's in ones heart that makes material things good or bad.

 

As we look around today we can see those in the church who are very wealthy and they hoard their wealth in buying bigger and better for themselves and banking most of the rest. Many of these tend to give little to their church home, yet since their little is more than most others have to give, they feel pretty good about it.

 

Then there are some who are wealthy and they have a decent home and good things, but they are not extravagant and they are not chasing wealth so they can continually "upgrade" and stuff their bank accounts. They give generously to their home church, they give to other ministries, support missionaries, give to the poor, including those in their church in need of help.

 

Yet it's not only the rich we find doing such, the middle class and poor do the same thing. Some are very tight with their money, spending it upon themselves far beyond need while giving little to their church. Then some of those in the same boat, both middle class and poor, are generous with their money, no matter how little they have.

 

We can be in sin with regards to money whether we are poor, middle class or wealthy. Whatever our financial status, we need to get our hearts right with the Lord and follow His leading in how we use our money and the amount of time and such we put into gaining money.

[John81]

Hello John81

You said.......
The tithe aspect I mentioned because that's how I've heard IFB pastors raise the issue of prosperity for believers. They teach specifically that if a Christian tithes, and gives more afterward, then they will be blessed financially. Along with this is the teaching that if they don't tithe, God "will get His tithe" in some other way; at which point some IFB pastors start talking about God taking His tithe by causing non-tithing believers cars to break down, or to have a serious health problem, or lose their jobs.

Thus far, I've never heard an IFB pastor preach on this aspect without using the tithe as their basis for why the congregation would be financially rewarded by God, or punished by God.

Some pastors go so far as to accuse poorer members of their church of not tithing, even when they are giving a tenth each Sunday, saying that if they were truly tithing they would have more money. That's not right on many levels.

I've heard IFB pastors give virtually the same sermon on this issue that is heard from some of the TV prosperity preachers. They tell believers to tithe and God will bless them a hundred fold. Then they tell them to keep tithing after they get more money and God will keep increasing their money a hundredfold.

It sounds like you have visited my Church.
This is exactly what my pastor says, almost every week.

As expected; This must be a “regular teaching”, in most IFB Churches!
(What a shame!)

 

We have God’s Word and a life changing Gospel message, and we get sidetracked by a love of money!
 

Sad but true. There are some pastors who are overly focused upon money, and getting more of that money into the offering plates (boxes, buckets, whatever they use).

 

That's a bad atmosphere for Christians to sit under, and terrible when guests visit, especially if they are not saved, and all they hear is the pastor pushing and pushing folks to tithe and then give more if they expect the Lord to bless them. Worse, they then hear the pastor declare the Lord will punish or curse those who don't do as the pastor says regarding their money.

 

It's not just some IFB churches which do this, many others do as well, which is why so many lost folks think the churches are just out to get other peoples money.

[Calvary]

I've heard "if you don't tithe, God will get his money by the doctor(and mechanic) " so many times.

 

^{Luke 6:37} Judge not, and ye shall not be judged: condemn not, and ye shall not be condemned: forgive, and ye shall be forgiven:

³⁸ Give, and it shall be given unto you; good measure, pressed down, and shaken together, and running over, shall men give into your bosom. For with the same measure that ye mete withal it shall be measured to you again.

 

God doesn't need our money...He just wants us to be givers, like He is..

Several have stated this sentiment. I sat in a church for 11 years and never once heard any message that indicated that God will exact the tithe out of non cooperating Christians.

I guess I am fortunate. In that my pastor taught the book, and that I didn´t have to go church hopping all the time. We sat under his ministry and learned the Bible, not traditions. Praise God for that. For the last 15 years in Mexico I have striven to continue that legacy. Teach the book, let the "brethren" cavil where they will, it makes no matter. In the end I simply desire to hear, Well done .....

 

But I simply wanted to comment on the apparent abuse many of you have suffered from ignorant men teaching little fiefdom theologies. I thank God I never suffered as some of you have.

 

 

God bless,

calvary

[heartstrings]

Amen & amen!

 

I believe many pastors loves to cater to those who have more so than those who have little, for if they do it might mean more gain for them.

 

And even in many churches with the name Baptist on them there's many who loves the prosperity & feel good message.

 

Once several years ago in a Sunday school class at a church I had been asked to preach that Sunday a man said, "God has blessed me very much financial because I've been a very good Christian. And he will do the same for anyone else."

A hurricane had hit our area pretty hard and, the following Saturday, I spent the better part of the day gathering building materials, and finding matching shingles to replace the ones which were ripped off my roof.. The next day, after Sunday morning services, I went back home, got into my work clothes, climbed up on the roof and replaced the missing shingles so that my roof wouldn't leak. I finished the job and went back to church that night. In the fellowship hall that night, the pastor asked if I had done a certain thing that afternoon and, when I told him that I had been repairing the roof on my house, his countenance changed to one of disgust and he embarrassed me in front of several people about my "working on Sunday"..

 

But that Sunday morning he had mentioned that our song leader, a big wheel with the power company, had to miss church that day because of dealing with power outages. So I asked the pastor aside privately, and not to shame him publicly as he had done to me, and mentioned how he had spoken well of brother XXXXXXX but shamed me. His response was "well, brother  XXXXXXXXXhas to do that, it's his job."  I later watched that same well-off man rail on that pastor, accusing him and treating him with shame in front of a bunch of the rest of us men. The pastor had publicly resigned, in tears, had been promised a sum of money, and that man and his "clique" didn't want to give it to him. I Iater heard that it was a forced resignation, involving that rich man and his clique. Incidentally, I had witnessed that same man rail on the previous pastor, before the whole congregation in the church house, and it was also over money. That should have been a warning sign for him not to cater to such men.

 

But the Bible says to "condescend to men of low estate". When we see that poor lowly shabby looking homeless guy come into the church and sit on the back pew,  we should gravitate toward him, smile, and say ."sit thou here in a good place".

[HappyChristian]

Several have stated this sentiment. I sat in a church for 11 years and never once heard any message that indicated that God will exact the tithe out of non cooperating Christians.

I guess I am fortunate. In that my pastor taught the book, and that I didn´t have to go church hopping all the time. We sat under his ministry and learned the Bible, not traditions. And a wonderful pastor you had, too!!    Praise God for that. For the last 15 years in Mexico I have striven to continue that legacy. Teach the book, let the "brethren" cavil where they will, it makes no matter. In the end I simply desire to hear, Well done .....

 

But I simply wanted to comment on the apparent abuse many of you have suffered from ignorant men teaching little fiefdom theologies. I thank God I never suffered as some of you have.

 

 

God bless,

calvary

[irishman]

Sorry Irishman, but you actually have not defended tithing. All you have done to defend tithing falls flat when held up against Scripture.

 

Why?  Because it was under the law, and is not mentioned but once in the N.T.?  Neither, my friend was the phrase "The life of the flesh is in the blood", and that was law too. (Lev. 17:11,14)

 

In fact, there were a couple of things that preceded the law, (Tithing being one of them)

 

I, however know that you do not wish to tithe, so that is between you and the Lord, take it up with Him.

[Ukulelemike]

Why?  Because it was under the law, and is not mentioned but once in the N.T.?  Neither, my friend was the phrase "The life of the flesh is in the blood", and that was law too. (Lev. 17:11,14)

 

In fact, there were a couple of things that preceded the law, (Tithing being one of them)

 

I, however know that you do not wish to tithe, so that is between you and the Lord, take it up with Him.

Actually, the issue of blood was told to Noah, and it is really a clear thing even through the theme of Cain and Abel-it was the blood of Abel that cried out to the Lord-thus, clearly, the life was in the blood.  And the Apostles in Jerusalem repeated again the declaration against eating blood-why? because that's where the life is.

 

Yes, there are many things before the law: sacrificing of animals and their blood and fat was before the law; yet we don't sacrifice any more. Tithing, however, while we see it mentioned once, specifically, (Abraham to Melchezidek) and once in practice, of sorts, (Jacob promising to give 'the tenth' to God, IF He blesses his way and brings him back home, so there were strings attached to his giving), neither of these are anything like actual tithing-in fact, they are more akin to New Testament free-will giving of offerings as the Lord has prospered us. They were not required, not asked for, not legalistic-Abraham actually gave, not of his own posessions, but of the spoil of battle. Jacob makes the promise, but we never actually see him give, in what manner it was done, if it was done regularly, or in one gift, like Abraham.

 

Actual tithing, a legalistic giving of a tenth of one's income as belonging to God is only directed in the law of Moses, and it was only one type of tithe, but it absolutely was a requirement. New Testament giving is according to how God has blessed and prospered you, meaning you can give less or more than 10%, or, if you have a poor spirit, the Bible clearly says that the Lord wants us to give cheerlfully, not out of requirement. We give because we love the Lord and His work, not because the preacher has brow-beat us into it-there will be no rewards for such giving because we believe we MUST give.

[Standing Firm In Christ]

Amen, Ukulele Mike!

The life of the flesh is in the blood is not a Law that we have to keep... it is a fact.  We have life because we have blood flowing through our veins... not because it is a Law that we can keep.

As to Irishman's statement that "tithing was before the Law," so was the Levirate marriage.  I wonder if Irishman would marry his sister-in-law if his brother passed away since that is "before the law?  Did Irishman marry his sister?  Probably not?  Yet Abram married his sister before the Law, didn't he? 

You are correct, Abram tithed that which was not his.  He even told Bera that he had promised God he would not keep any of those spoils for himself.  There is not one iota of Scripture that says Abraham ever tithed of his own household riches... not one!

Abram's tithe included clothing.  Does Irishman take a tenth of all his clothes; i.e., shirts, pants, socks, undergarments, shoes, ties, etc., and give them as tithes?  Probably not.  I have yet to see any modern day "tither" do this.

As is easily seen, when held up against Scripture, Irishman's monetary tithe nowhere resembles the tithe "before the Law."  Nor does it resemble the tithe that was in the Law.

He (and others) can Pharisaically and condescendingly look down on those of us who teach the Word of God as it is written if he chooses.  He  may be sincere in his beliefs... but he is sincerely wrong.

[irishman]

Ho Hum, whatever!  We are way off topic here anyway, so adios. (save your pennies for another time.)

[Standing Firm In Christ]

Not that far off topic, since one of the errors being addressed at the OP's Church is the pastor getting after people for not paying tithes... which, according to the Word of God, they are not required to do anyway.

[Salyan]

He (and others) can Pharisaically and condescendingly look down on those of us who teach the Word of God as it is written if he chooses.  He  may be sincere in his beliefs... but he is sincerely wrong.

 

SFIC, calling others Pharisaical and condescending because they disagree with your interpretation of the Scripture is neither kind nor true. You may be speaking the truth, but you are not speaking in love.

 

Now, regardless of who is correct on the tithing issue, let's get  

[Standing Firm In Christ]

I disagree, Saluan. His postt was condescending and was reeking of the same attitude thePharisee ofLuke 18 had. "Lord, I thank thee that I am not like that non tither."

The attitude was no different.

And as I said, not tithing is part of the errors in the OP's pchurch, so I am not that far off topic since the OP is about errors in his church.