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DeaconDixon

Here's Why We Are Against Abortion

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So much for one having to come through Christ.  They can just die and get into heaven according to some. 

Ungodly doctrine, that is.

 

As was asked by another poster earlier, if a baby can get into heaven by just dying, why not just kill the babies and assure them of that place?  Why wait until they can die in sin and be damned for eternity?

 

Something wrong with that theology that teaches one can die without trusting Christ but still enter Heaven.

Edited by Standing Firm In Christ

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Let's just run down to our hospitals and kill all the infants in the nurseries.  After all, the Bible does say "He that winneth souls is wise" and that would be a sure win of many souls for the kingdom.

That is, if your 'die without Christ and still get to heaven' doctrine is true.

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Actually, I have had experience with a small child dying.  I have also been to the graveside of many a deceased child. 

Maybe it is not me that is "clueless."

and your statement about knee jerk opinions about ever single subject is totally uncalled for.  I post on very few subjects on this forum.  Mainly because most turn their ears from the truth and some out and out say not to teach the truth.

 

You own child guy? I doubt it but go ahead and lie to the crowd and Holy Ghost to try to be right about everything again.

 

Everything about you is clueless and one thing I can guarantee is if I saw you in person you would change your prideful, need to be right, opinion about this topic in a hurry.

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Ok, let's cut the sarcasm...no-one need advocate killing babies, even if to prove a point.  Love you all, but that makes my blood boil, so stop.

 

The Bible also says, "to him that knoweth to do good and doeth it not, to him is it sin."  Does a baby know to do good?  No.  Not even in the womb.  While I totally agree that reading to a babe in utero helps begin molding him/her, it does not mean that understanding of sin exists.  Proof of that is the absolute lack of understanding a babe has when born.  If a baby could discern good and bad in the womb, he/she could do so upon exiting the womb. But all parents can testify to the fact that they cannot.

 

Yes, it is through Christ that we all have eternal life.  And the Bible clearly says that Christ died for the sins of the entire world.  That would include those babies miscarried or aborted.  Since the baby does not have the opportunity to learn of his/her sinful nature, they are what we could call innocent.  God is a God of judgment and He is a God of justice and mercy.

 

Would that merciful God consign a babe who hasn't had the opportunity to hear the gospel - and understand and respond - to Hell simply because his/her life was taken from him/her?  I don't believe so.  And David's reaction to the death of his child is telling.  While we can debate the idea and claim that maybe he was just going to bury his child, his statement bears other witness to the fact that he was at peace: His servants wondered why on earth, now that the child was dead, did he eat since he had fasted while beseeching God for the life of his child.  What did he say?

 

"But now he is dead...can I bring him back again?  I shall go to him, but he shall not return to me..."  The Bible is quite clear: David was referencing going to his dead child who was in a different place - and not the morgue (or whatever they used).  He was at peace now, with God's decision...and he was done with the mourning because he knew he would see the child again - and not a coffin, either.  There's not a lot of comfort looking at your loved one in a coffin... 

 

Let's stop  the personal attacks. And that's not a request.  :tapping:

 

(SFIC - you weren't told not to teach anything. You were asked to take a break on the subject.  There is a big difference.)

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You own child guy? I doubt it but go ahead and lie to the crowd and Holy Ghost to try to be right about everything again.

 

Everything about you is clueless and one thing I can guarantee is if I saw you in person you would change your prideful, need to be right, opinion about this topic in a hurry.

Is this a threat? 

 

Did you realize that communicating threats over the internet is a Federal crime?

Edited by LindaR

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Except a man be born again, he will not see the kingdom of heaven....aborted babies have yet to be born the first time let alone again.

Man is without excuse because nature itself speaks of God...aborted babies have not seen nature.

 

There is Sripture that gives the criteria on going to heaven.  Obviously it is impossible for an aborted baby to be included in this criteria.  So the Sripture you are using to explain who goes to heaven is the same Scripture that is used to explain how an aborted baby can go to heaven.

According to Scripture a baby in the womb is already who they were formed to be by the hand of God and they have some level of consciousness and awareness. That said, what verses of Scripture tell of any way for anyone to enter heaven without first being born again in Christ.

 

On a side note, I didn't put forth any Scripture saying babies can't go to heaven because I never even said they can't go. I'm simply asking what verses declare an exception to the verses which clearly state that no one can enter heaven outside of being in Christ.

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So much for one having to come through Christ.  They can just die and get into heaven according to some. 

Ungodly doctrine, that is.

 

As was asked by another poster earlier, if a baby can get into heaven by just dying, why not just kill the babies and assure them of that place?  Why wait until they can die in sin and be damned for eternity?

 

Something wrong with that theology that teaches one can die without trusting Christ but still enter Heaven.

MATTHEW 18:

And Jesus called a little child unto him, and set him in the midst of them,

And said, Verily I say unto you, Except ye be converted, and become as little children, ye shall not enter into the kingdom of heaven.

 

"As little children"?

Little children, including unborn infants, are totally dependent, helpless, innocent, humble, and trusting.

 

My personal belief is that an infant and little child has the same standing as Adam and Eve had before they sinned. We are not spiritually "dead" until we sin for the first time.....notice.....

 

Romans 7:9 

For I was alive without the law once: but when the commandment came, sin revived, and I died.

 

One more verse.....

 

Isaiah 1:18

 Come now, and let us reason together, saith the Lord: though your sins be as scarlet, they shall be as white as snow; though they be red like crimson, they shall be as wool.

 

Salvation can only happen to someone with some ability to "reason". A severely mentally handicapped person, or an infant cannot do that yet.

 

 

 

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It is obvious to me that this dixon idiot, SFIC and John have no experience with a small child dying or misscarried children. Your wild spectulations would be on the opposite spectrum.

 

Use some sensitively since you are all clueless to what the real truth of the matter is. Think of those who have suffered these losses before you blurt your meaningless opinions.

 

I realize that some have zero life apart from this forum and the internet but you don't have to post misguided or knee jerk opinions about every, single subject.

This is exactly the type of post Suzy and others were referring to in another thread regarding why it's so hard to try and have a discussion with IFB folks. You are jumping to absurd conclusions.

 

I never said a baby could or could not go to heaven. I simply asked for the Scriptures that tell us there is a special way into heaven for babies or anyone else.

 

Myself, sibling twins were stillborn to my Mom and my first baby sister died shortly after birth. I could go on but my emotional and actual experiences with such have no bearing upon what Scripture does or does not say.

 

We (IFBs) always say we go only by what Scripture clearly teaches, which is why I'm asking for the clear Scripture telling of the alternate ways to enter heaven.

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I'm against abortion because it's the murder of innocent human lives. I'm against Calvinism because it's a false witness against the character of the true and living God...They're both abominations before God. God is Love...end of story. He isn't selfish and greedy for some warped man-conceived concept of "glory". He isn't "sovereign" in the sense that Calvinists define it. But He is all powerful and when He says "that's it"....that will be it, my friend. By His supreme power He will judge all of the unrepentant abortionists and the false witnesses in the end and He will have them all cast into Hell whose names are not written in the Book of Life. Will you continue to bear false witness of His Holy name? He is gracious and merciful but He will judge you one day if you don't repent and trust Jesus. Jesus is the God who gave Himself on Calvary for the whole world, for whosoever will. All babies are "conceived in sin" but until they have sinned the first time, and had no opportunity to repent, they are NOT lost.   If you don't know true love....you do not know Him.

I don't know what Calvinism has to do with this (perhaps I missed that somewhere) but I'm against murder of any person at any age, whether a second old, well over a hundred or anywhere in between. Scripture teach us that murder is a sin. That in itself should be enough to satisfy any professing Christian on the matter. (Yes, I know it doesn't, but those who don't accept that must go through all sorts of contortions outside of Scripture to try and justify their stance)

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MATTHEW 18:

And Jesus called a little child unto him, and set him in the midst of them,

And said, Verily I say unto you, Except ye be converted, and become as little children, ye shall not enter into the kingdom of heaven.

 

"As little children"?

Little children, including unborn infants, are totally dependent, helpless, innocent, humble, and trusting.

 

My personal belief is that an infant and little child has the same standing as Adam and Eve had before they sinned. We are not spiritually "dead" until we sin for the first time.....notice.....

 

Romans 7:9 

For I was alive without the law once: but when the commandment came, sin revived, and I died.

 

One more verse.....

 

Isaiah 1:18

 Come now, and let us reason together, saith the Lord: though your sins be as scarlet, they shall be as white as snow; though they be red like crimson, they shall be as wool.

 

Salvation can only happen to someone with some ability to "reason". A severely mentally handicapped person, or an infant cannot do that yet.

 

 

 

 

The Matthew verse is speaking of being humble and fully trusting as a child.

 

Most IFBs I know of believe there will be no old or young in heaven, but that everyone will have a perfect, glorified adult body (many think akin to about a 33 year old) so if that's the view held, the idea of there being children in heaven is moot; unless some believe that heaven is populated by perpetual 1 month olds, 13 month olds and such.

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I don't know what Calvinism has to do with this (perhaps I missed that somewhere) but I'm against murder of any person at any age, whether a second old, well over a hundred or anywhere in between. Scripture teach us that murder is a sin. That in itself should be enough to satisfy any professing Christian on the matter. (Yes, I know it doesn't, but those who don't accept that must go through all sorts of contortions outside of Scripture to try and justify their stance)

 

The OP somehow blended Calvinism with the subject, albeit a twisted form of it.

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I don't know what Calvinism has to do with this (perhaps I missed that somewhere) but I'm against murder of any person at any age, whether a second old, well over a hundred or anywhere in between. Scripture teach us that murder is a sin. That in itself should be enough to satisfy any professing Christian on the matter. (Yes, I know it doesn't, but those who don't accept that must go through all sorts of contortions outside of Scripture to try and justify their stance)

Where's the contortion, John 81? This thread isn't about "murder"; it's about the Living God (supposedly) damning unborn infants to Hell. That's a false witness of the character of God. I'm not versed in all flavors of theology, but the only folks I've come across, so far, who believe this stuff are folks of the Calvinist persuasion. 

 

(edited typo)

Edited by heartstrings

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The Matthew verse is speaking of being humble and fully trusting as a child.

 

Most IFBs I know of believe there will be no old or young in heaven, but that everyone will have a perfect, glorified adult body (many think akin to about a 33 year old) so if that's the view held, the idea of there being children in heaven is moot; unless some believe that heaven is populated by perpetual 1 month olds, 13 month olds and such.

Yes, it is. Absolutely.

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Where's the contortion, John 81? This thread isn't about "murder"; it's about the Living God (supposedly) damning unborn infants to Hell. That's a false witness of the character of God. I'm not versed in all flavors of theology, but the only folks I've come across, so far, who believe this stuff are folks of the Calvinist persuasion. 

 

(edited typo)

Salyan just mentioned there was something in the first thread about Calvinism. I must have missed that. I understand what you were trying to refer to now.

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This is exactly the type of post Suzy and others were referring to in another thread regarding why it's so hard to try and have a discussion with IFB folks. You are jumping to absurd conclusions.

 

I never said a baby could or could not go to heaven. I simply asked for the Scriptures that tell us there is a special way into heaven for babies or anyone else.

 

Myself, sibling twins were stillborn to my Mom and my first baby sister died shortly after birth. I could go on but my emotional and actual experiences with such have no bearing upon what Scripture does or does not say.

 

We (IFBs) always say we go only by what Scripture clearly teaches, which is why I'm asking for the clear Scripture telling of the alternate ways to enter heaven.

How much clearer can you get with David saying he will go to his baby.  He seemed to be ok with it, so I don't believe the "going to" was talking about seeing his child at the great white throne judgement being cast into hell because it didn't make a conscious decision to accept Christ.  I don't believe it was talking about a casket because there would still be mourning because ain't no casket going to make you feel good about seeing your dead child.  So I believe this Scripture is all about David being with his child in heaven.

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How much clearer can you get with David saying he will go to his baby.  He seemed to be ok with it, so I don't believe the "going to" was talking about seeing his child at the great white throne judgement being cast into hell because it didn't make a conscious decision to accept Christ.  I don't believe it was talking about a casket because there would still be mourning because ain't no casket going to make you feel good about seeing your dead child.  So I believe this Scripture is all about David being with his child in heaven.

First, that verse says nothing at all about there being any way to heaven other than through Christ.

 

Second, none of us know for sure what David meant when he made that statement. Maybe he was saying he would see the baby in heaven, maybe he was saying he too would go to the grave. We don't know.

 

Is Scripture wrong when it says there is only one way to heaven? Is there an "exception" passage which lists one or more other ways a person can get to heaven other than through Christ? Is it possible Scripture doesn't specifically address this and we are left to trust God with the matter, or not?

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Let's just run down to our hospitals and kill all the infants in the nurseries.  After all, the Bible does say "He that winneth souls is wise" and that would be a sure win of many souls for the kingdom.

That is, if your 'die without Christ and still get to heaven' doctrine is true.

 

Since those babies are already under grace, you wouldn't be do anything but disobeying "thou shalt not kill".

 

There is a preponderance of Scripture that makes it clear that the unborn, infants and for lack of a better word, retards, are under grace.  It was clear to David, it's clear to me, besides, it just makes sense!

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Well...I honestly don't believe David alluded to just joining his child in the grave.  After all, he said "...I will dwell in the house of the LORD for ever."  Somehow I can't picture him thinking that his grave would be the house of the Lord.

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If those babies are "under grace," then it is because of one reason and one reason only... they trusted Christ.

He that believeth not is condemned.  No man cometh unto the Father but by the Son.

You say there is a preponderance of Scripture to show babies will go to heaven without trusting Christ, yet, in reality there is no preponderance of Scripture that says such.

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Well...I honestly don't believe David alluded to just joining his child in the grave.  After all, he said "...I will dwell in the house of the LORD for ever."  Somehow I can't picture him thinking that his grave would be the house of the Lord.

Talk about taking Scripture out of context.

 

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You know, I'm 95% certain that DD started this thread to arouse contention & indignation. The sad thing is that we are obliging him. This hasn't even evolved into a nice, congenial discussion; it's full of contention, offenses, pride and blanket statements. On all sides. What say we try to not fall into the trap he set?

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Abortion is murder.  Murder is sin.  Where someone spends eternity is not the issue in discussing abortion.  Life begins at conception and taking the life of an unborn infant at any stage of gestation is murder.

 

Genesis 18:25 That be far from thee to do after this manner, to slay the righteous with the wicked: and that the righteous should be as the wicked, that be far from thee: Shall not the Judge of all the earth do right?

Edited by LindaR

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How much clearer can you get with David saying he will go to his baby.  He seemed to be ok with it, so I don't believe the "going to" was talking about seeing his child at the great white throne judgement being cast into hell because it didn't make a conscious decision to accept Christ.  I don't believe it was talking about a casket because there would still be mourning because ain't no casket going to make you feel good about seeing your dead child.  So I believe this Scripture is all about David being with his child in heaven.

 

You can't get any clearer, but we have some on here that do not go by the teachings of the Bible, but by commandments of men. We have more false teachers propagating their false teachings that ever before while hoping to win Christians to follow them in their false teachings.

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You know, I'm 95% certain that DD started this thread to arouse contention & indignation. The sad thing is that we are obliging him. This hasn't even evolved into a nice, congenial discussion; it's full of contention, offenses, pride and blanket statements. On all sides. What say we try to not fall into the trap he set?

What have I posted that's contentious, offensive, prideful or a blanket statement?

 

Unless you are not referring to me since I don't have a "side".

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      You might think that this is "unfair", but it's not unfair at all. Those who do not have the opportunity to receive salvation, who never in their lifetimes hear the gospel preached (eg babies and savages living in jungles), OBviously were Predestined by God to go to hell. God makes sure that His elect are able to hear the gospel preached to them during their lifetimes, in order to give them an opportunity which He knows they will take advantage of. But with a lot of the reprOBate, He decided not to bother letting them hear the gospel because He had already decided to send them to Hell anyway. God knows everything, so if a baby dies, God OBviously allowed that baby to die because He knew that if it had lived it would have grown up to be a sinner.

      A liberal so called "Christian" I once conversed with, recounted the Old Testament story of a father who was promised that he would be reunited with his dead son, who died in infancy. But the important point to remember here is that this occured in the OLD Testamant. Before Jesus, the requirements for Salvation were very different. OBviously Moses did not go to hell eventhough He never accepted Jesus as his Saviour - he could not have done, as Jesus had not been born at that stage. In Old Testament times, to belong to the Jewish race (God's chosen people) was sufficient qualification to ensure a place in Heaven, so long as you did not break the laws of the Prophets. But since the New Testament, it is imperative to believe in Jesus to get to Heaven.

      Furthermore, one of my associates presented a very simple tongue-in-cheek argument that if death in infancy ensures salvation then it is a very good idea to kill babies. The vast majority of the human race at present is NOT made up of true Christians (Bible-believing fundamentalists), so for a new born, odds are that he or she will grow up to become part of the hellbound majority. Death in infancy, therefore, would guard against that risk, and would be a small price to pay to ensure eternal bliss as opposed to eternal misery and torture.

      To suggest that God makes exceptions to the rule that you must believe in Jesus to get into heaven, based on age or any other reason is to make a mockery of the whole notion of Salvation. It is either necessary to believe in Jesus, or it isn't. If God is going to make exceptions then it OBviously isn't necessary. If God is going to allow unsaved babies to go to heaven by default then He is just playing games with us and Jesus isn't necessary at all. It would be better, in that case, to go and live in some remote community in some OBsure, primitive country and have a great time sinning all you like. At death, you will end up in heaven anyway if God can see that you have never been told about Jesus and the Bible.

      Babies, and young children who die before they are old enough to understand the gospels and worship Jesus, unfortunately go straight to Hell. This is a Bible fact, and anybody who disagrees is guilty of heresy.
      I trust that I have sucessfully refuted the heresies of the lieberal element that have been smearing the internet with their new-age, pluralist (aka satanic) lies.

      On a final note, I would like to add that the thought of all those screaming infants in hell is enough to make you want to avoid the place at all costs, if you needed any more encouragement!
    • By The Ohio Patriot
      MEXICO CITY (AP) -- President Barack Obama said Thursday he was comfortable with his administration's decision to allow over-the-counter purchases of a morning-after pill for anyone 15 and older.
      The Food and Drug Administration on Tuesday had lowered the age at which people can buy the Plan B One-Step morning-after pill without a prescription to 15 - younger than the current limit of 17. The FDA decided that the pill could be sold on drugstore shelves near condoms, instead of locked behind pharmacy counters.
       
      Here for the rest of this horrible story
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