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2T3:16

Saw This Link By Beameup And I Dont Understand It

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9 minutes ago, OLD fashioned preacher said:

Bro. Markle,

I agree (unless I am misunderstanding your above post) that the wording "that 'soul' .............. 'death' in this passage" is to be taken together as a single thought. Please remember, however, that most people tend to read as they think (or as they speak). This causes a natural tendency to insert an assumptive phrase as follows: "...but  [I am saying] that it means ..." (italicized insertion is that added thought).

Though such misrepresentation is sometimes intentional, many times it is unintended.

Brother "OLD Fashioned Preacher,"

At the first, I did recognize the misunderstanding of my statement and the likely reason for it (even as you have presented above).  However, after I presented an expanded explanation for the grammatical construction and meaning of that statement, there should not have been a continuing persistence in the misunderstanding, but a recognition thereof.  Yet that persistence in the misunderstanding continues to present me as indicating the very opposite of that which I actually indicated.  Therefore, at least for the sake of the audience's correct understanding of my communication, I presented a second explanation thereof. 

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59 minutes ago, Pastor Scott Markle said:

I was not attempting to indicate that "soul" does not mean "soul," but that it means "physical life/death" in this passage. 

 

Howdy Scott,

Assuming what I quote here are your words originally, could you rephrase it for clarity.

thanks

 

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11 hours ago, Pastor Scott Markle said:

I was not attempting to indicate that "soul" does not mean "soul," but that it means "physical life/death" in this passage. 

Sir, I did attempt to disengage from this conversation. However, again I must answer for myself. The word "it" above I (myself) set in bold. What is the "it" that (according to you) means "physical life/death" in this particular part of the passage we were discussing (of which I underlined)? 

Ezekiel 18:27 "Again, when the wicked man turneth away from his wickedness that he hath committed, and doeth that which is lawful and right, he shall save his soul alive."

Did the "it" in your sentence above not gramatically refer to the word "soul"? 

Thank you!

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11 hours ago, Pastor Scott Markle said:

I was not attempting to indicate that "soul" does not mean "soul," but that it means "physical life/death" in this passage. 

9 hours ago, wretched said:

Howdy Scott,

Assuming what I quote here are your words originally, could you rephrase it for clarity.

thanks

Howdy back, Brother "Wretched."

First, yes, your above quotation is an accurate and precise quote of my statement.

Second, yes, I could rephrase that statement for the purpose of clarity.  Even so, I shall divide the compound "that" phrases from the infinitive "to indicate" and shall turn my statement into two independent clauses instead, as follows:

(1) I was NOT attempting to indicate that "soul" does not mean "soul," AND (2) I was NOT attempting to indicate that "soul" means "physical life/death" in this passage (instead of "soul").

Brother, is that more clear and more better?

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11 hours ago, Pastor Scott Markle said:

I was not attempting to indicate that "soul" does not mean "soul," but that it means "physical life/death" in this passage. 

10 minutes ago, Ronda said:

Sir, I did attempt to disengage from this conversation. However, again I must answer for myself. The word "it" above I (myself) set in bold. What is the "it" that (according to you) means "physical life/death" in this particular part of the passage we were discussing (of which I underlined)? 

Ezekiel 18:27 "Again, when the wicked man turneth away from his wickedness that he hath committed, and doeth that which is lawful and right, he shall save his soul alive."

Did the "it" in your sentence above not gramatically refer to the word "soul"? 

Thank you!

Sister Ronda,

You are correct.  The antecedent for the pronoun "it" is indeed the word "soul" in my above sentence.  As such, the word "soul" can be exchanged for the pronoun "it" in that sentence.

However, this is NOT the grammatical point about which you do not seem to understand the grammar of my above sentence.  The grammatical point about which you seem to misunderstand my above sentence is that the ENTIRE compound "that" phrasing is to be taken as a single UNIT -- 

I was not attempting to indicate that "soul" does not mean "soul," but that it means "physical life/death" in this passage. 

In the above sentence, the conjunction "but" does NOT begin a second independent clause.  Rather, the conjunction "but" connects the second "that" phrase (that it means "physical life/death" in this passage) with the first "that" phrase only (that "soul" does not mean "soul"), thereby creating a single grammatical unit.  As such, the ENTIRE grammatical unit of phrasing that is presented above in red is grammatically the entirety of what "I was NOT attempting to indicate."

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23 minutes ago, Pastor Scott Markle said:

Howdy back, Brother "Wretched."

First, yes, your above quotation is an accurate and precise quote of my statement.

Second, yes, I could rephrase that statement for the purpose of clarity.  Even so, I shall divide the compound "that" phrases from the infinitive "to indicate" and shall turn my statement into two independent clauses instead, as follows:

(1) I was NOT attempting to indicate that "soul" does not mean "soul," AND (2) I was NOT attempting to indicate that "soul" means "physical life/death" in this passage (instead of "soul").

Brother, is that more clear and more better?

Absolutely brother Scott, thanks

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On ‎3‎/‎1‎/‎2016 at 10:40 AM, Pastor Scott Markle said:

Indeed, the entire context of Ezekiel 18 makes it fairly clear that physical death and physical life IS the matter about which the passage is concerned, as follows:

On the other hand, with the above engagement concerning the grammar of my own sentence, there may become a confusion concerning my position on Ezekiel 18.  I DO indeed believe that Ezekiel 18 is speaking concerning physical life and physical death when it speaks concerning the life of the soul and the death of the soul.  However, I do NOT believe that the word "soul" itself can be exchanged for the ides of "physical life/death."  I believe that the word "soul" simply means "essential personhood."  Therefore, I believe that the word "soul" can be employed (1) in "a life to come" context ("eternal soul"), (2) in "an inner man and character" context ("thinking, feeling soul"), or (3) in "a life in this physical world" context ("physical person").  How then can we determine which perspective for any given passage?  We must determine by the given context.
 

On ‎3‎/‎2‎/‎2016 at 10:04 PM, Pastor Scott Markle said:

The word "soul" in Scripture does not necessarily mean "eternal soul" as we so commonly use the phrase.  In fact, the phrase "eternal soul" is never found in Scripture.  Rather, the word "soul" in Scripture means "essential personhood."  As such, it can at times refer to that part of us (the "who we essentially are" part) that departs from the body at physical death and goes into the eternal life to come.  However, it also can (and very often does) refer to our present personhood (physical life) in this present life.  As such, the use of the word "soul" in relation to the idea of "death" is commonly employed throughout the Old Testament simply for physical death.

For those who may be interested, I present the following passages of Scripture as Biblical evidence for the assertion that I have emboldened above:

Genesis 12:13 -- Say, I pray thee, thou art my sister: that it may be well with me for thy sake; and my soul shall live because of thee.

 

Genesis 17:14 -- And the uncircumcised man child whose flesh of his foreskin is not circumcised, that soul shall be cut off from his people; he hath broken my covenant.

 

Genesis 19:20 -- Behold now, this city is near to flee unto, and it is a little one: Oh, let me escape thither, (is it not a little one?) and my soul shall live.

 

Exodus 12:15 -- Seven days shall ye eat unleavened bread; even the first day ye shall put away leaven out of your houses: for whosoever eateth leavened bread from the first day until the seventh day, that soul shall be cut off from Israel.

 

Exodus 12:19 -- Seven days shall there be no leaven found in your houses: for whosoever eateth that which is leavened, even that soul shall be cut off from the congregation of Israel, whether he be a stranger, or born in the land.

 

Exodus 31:14 -- Ye shall keep the sabbath therefore; for it is holy unto you: every one that defileth it shall surely be put to death: for whosoever doeth any work therein, that soul shall be cut off from among his people.

 

Leviticus 7:20 -- But the soul that eateth of the flesh of the sacrifice of peace offerings, that pertain unto the LORD, having his uncleanness upon him, even that soul shall be cut off from his people.

 

Leviticus 7:21 -- Moreover the soul that shall touch any unclean thing, as the uncleanness of man, or any unclean beast, or any abominable unclean thing, and eat of the flesh of the sacrifice of peace offerings, which pertain unto the LORD, even that soul shall be cut off from his people.

 

Leviticus 7:25 -- For whosoever eateth the fat of the beast, of which men offer an offering made by fire unto the LORD, even the soul that eateth it shall be cut off from his people.

 

Leviticus 7:27 -- Whatsoever soul it be that eateth any manner of blood, even that soul shall be cut off from his people.

 

Leviticus 17:10 -- And whatsoever man there be of the house of Israel, or of the strangers that sojourn among you, that eateth any manner of blood; I will even set my face against that soul that eateth blood, and will cut him off from among his people.

 

Leviticus 18:29 -- For whosoever shall commit any of these abominations, even the souls that commit them shall be cut off from among their people.

 

Leviticus 19:8 -- Therefore every one that eateth it shall bear his iniquity, because he hath profaned the hallowed thing of the LORD: and that soul shall be cut off from among his people.

 

Leviticus 20:6 -- And the soul that turneth after such as have familiar spirits, and after wizards, to go a whoring after them, I will even set my face against that soul, and will cut him off from among his people.

 

Leviticus 23:29 -- For whatsoever soul it be that shall not be afflicted in that same day, he shall be cut off from among his people.

 

Leviticus 23:30 -- And whatsoever soul it be that doeth any work in that same day, the same soul will I destroy from among his people.

 

Numbers 9:13 -- But the man that is clean, and is not in a journey, and forbeareth to keep the passover, even the same soul shall be cut off from among his people: because he brought not the offering of the LORD in his appointed season, that man shall bear his sin.

 

Numbers 15:30 -- But the soul that doeth ought presumptuously, whether he be born in the land, or a stranger, the same reproacheth the LORD; and that soul shall be cut off from among his people.

 

Numbers 15:31 -- Because he hath despised the word of the LORD, and hath broken his commandment, that soul shall utterly be cut off; his iniquity shall be upon him.

 

Numbers 19:13 -- Whosoever toucheth the dead body of any man that is dead, and purifieth not himself, defileth the tabernacle of the LORD; and that soul shall be cut off from Israel: because the water of separation was not sprinkled upon him, he shall be unclean; his uncleanness is yet upon him.

 

Numbers 19:20 -- But the man that shall be unclean, and shall not purify himself, that soul shall be cut off from among the congregation, because he hath defiled the sanctuary of the LORD: the water of separation hath not been sprinkled upon him; he is unclean.

 

Joshua 10:28 -- And that day Joshua took Makkedah, and smote it with the edge of the sword, and the king thereof he utterly destroyed, them, and all the souls that were therein; he let none remain: and he did to the king of Makkedah as he did unto the king of Jericho.

 

Joshua 10:30 -- And the LORD delivered it also, and the king thereof, into the hand of Israel; and he smote it with the edge of the sword, and all the souls that were therein; he let none remain in it; but did unto the king thereof as he did unto the king of Jericho.

 

Joshua 10:32 -- And the LORD delivered Lachish into the hand of Israel, which took it on the second day, and smote it with the edge of the sword, and all the souls that were therein, according to all that he had done to Libnah.

 

Joshua 10:35 -- And they took it on that day, and smote it with the edge of the sword, and all the souls that were therein he utterly destroyed that day, according to all that he had done to Lachish.

 

Joshua 10:37 -- And they took it, and smote it with the edge of the sword, and the king thereof, and all the cities thereof, and all the souls that were therein; he left none remaining, according to all that he had done to Eglon; but destroyed it utterly, and all the souls that were therein.

 

Joshua 10:39 -- And he took it, and the king thereof, and all the cities thereof; and they smote them with the edge of the sword, and utterly destroyed all the souls that were therein; he left none remaining: as he had done to Hebron, so he did to Debir, and to the king thereof; as he had done also to Libnah, and to her king.

 

Joshua 11:11 -- And they smote all the souls that were therein with the edge of the sword, utterly destroying them: there was not any left to breathe: and he burnt Hazor with fire.

 

1 Samuel 24:11 -- Moreover, my father, see, yea, see the skirt of thy robe in my hand: for in that I cut off the skirt of thy robe, and killed thee not, know thou and see that there is neither evil nor transgression in mine hand, and I have not sinned against thee; yet thou huntest my soul to take it.

 

Psalm 30:3 -- O LORD, thou hast brought up my soul from the grave: thou hast kept me alive, that I should not go down to the pit.

 

Psalm 33:19 -- To deliver their soul from death, and to keep them alive in famine.

 

Psalm 89:48 -- What man is he that liveth, and shall not see death? shall he deliver his soul from the hand of the grave? Selah.

 

Jeremiah 2:34 -- Also in thy skirts is found the blood of the souls of the poor innocents: I have not found it by secret search, but upon all these.

 

Jeremiah 18:20 -- Shall evil be recompensed for good? for they have digged a pit for my soul. Remember that I stood before thee to speak good for them, and to turn away thy wrath from them.

 

Jeremiah 38:17 -- Then said Jeremiah unto Zedekiah, Thus saith the LORD, the God of hosts, the God of Israel; If thou wilt assuredly go forth unto the king of Babylon’s princes, then thy soul shall live, and this city shall not be burned with fire; and thou shalt live, and thine house:

 

Jeremiah 38:20 -- But Jeremiah said, They shall not deliver thee. Obey, I beseech thee, the voice of the LORD, which I speak unto thee: so it shall be well unto thee, and thy soul shall live.

 

Revelation 16:3 -- And the second angel poured out his vial upon the sea; and it became as the blood of a dead man: and every living soul died in the sea.

 

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On 3/2/2016 at 10:04 PM, Pastor Scott Markle said:

No.  I was not attempting to indicate that "soul" does not mean "soul," but that it means "physical life/death" in this passage.

 

To which I said: Did the "it" in your sentence above not gramatically refer to the word "soul"? 

25 minutes ago, Pastor Scott Markle said:

You are correct.  The antecedent for the pronoun "it" is indeed the word "soul" in my above sentence.  As such, the word "soul" can be exchanged for the pronoun "it" in that sentence.

Gramatically... if (as you said) the "it" can be exchanged for "soul", and if (as you said)  "soul"  means "physical life/death" in that passage... then are you not saying that "soul" can be exchanged for "physical life/death" in this passage?

To which I would again contend that you are replacing/exchanging the word "soul" with "physical life/death". 

The Bible verse does not state "physical life/death" the Bible verse states "soul".  If you feel comfortable exchanging the word "soul" for "physical life/death" that is your prerogative. I (myself) won't do that, though. I (myself) will not exchange words in the Bible as the literal word in the Bible is "soul", and I (myself) will stand by that the reason I contend about this is because I (myself) believe the words of the Bible were given by God, and I don't feel that they need to be replaced or exchanged. I'm sorry for the contention.

You have a right to express your belief in what you contend the word "soul" to mean in this verse. I also have the same right to defend my own position on what I believe the word "soul" to mean in this verse. (Or do I have the same right to contend here?) I thought this forum was a place to fellowship and discuss Bible verses such as this (and any Bible verse with which we are studying).  I am trying to be polite in my contention, and apologize if I come off as not being courteous... that is not my intent. But again, I cannot agree with something that I do not agree with. I would not and do not expect you to agree with something you do not agree with either. Neither of us could be bullied to agree with something we do not agree with.  You have given your position, I have given my position. I'm not sure why we are still discussing this unless you want me to concede that your position is the correct position, and  will not do that. Nor do I expect you to concede that my position is the correct position. We are now travelling down the path towards feeding the fleshy desire to argue since both positions have already both given our positions. 

I am going to disengage now from this conversation. You can have the last word if you'd like. I stand by my position on the word "soul" in the passage discussed. I need not continue to say more. Thank you again for your courteous manner in this discussion.

 

 

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2 minutes ago, Ronda said:

To which I said: Did the "it" in your sentence above not gramatically refer to the word "soul"? 

Gramatically... if (as you said) the "it" can be exchanged for "soul", and if (as you said)  "soul"  means "physical life/death" in that passage... then are you not saying that "soul" can be exchanged for "physical life/death" in this passage?

Sister Ronda,

Indeed, I did say the following:

1 hour ago, Pastor Scott Markle said:

Sister Ronda,

You are correct.  The antecedent for the pronoun "it" is indeed the word "soul" in my above sentence.  As such, the word "soul" can be exchanged for the pronoun "it" in that sentence.

However, I ALSO said the following in the very same posting:

1 hour ago, Pastor Scott Markle said:

However, this is NOT the grammatical point about which you do not seem to understand the grammar of my above sentence.  The grammatical point about which you seem to misunderstand my above sentence is that the ENTIRE compound "that" phrasing is to be taken as a single UNIT -- 

I was not attempting to indicate that "soul" does not mean "soul," but that it means "physical life/death" in this passage. 

In the above sentence, the conjunction "but" does NOT begin a second independent clause.  Rather, the conjunction "but" connects the second "that" phrase (that it means "physical life/death" in this passage) with the first "that" phrase only (that "soul" does not mean "soul"), thereby creating a single grammatical unit.  As such, the ENTIRE grammatical unit of phrasing that is presented above in red is grammatically the entirety of what "I was NOT attempting to indicate."

Even so, your claim about my position is simply FALSE:

6 minutes ago, Ronda said:

Gramatically... if (as you said) the "it" can be exchanged for "soul", and if (as you said)  "soul"  means "physical life/death" in that passage... then are you not saying that "soul" can be exchanged for "physical life/death" in this passage?

To which I would again contend that you are replacing/exchanging the word "soul" with "physical life/death". 

However, I believe that my repeated explanations for the grammar of my own sentence is now sufficient for the rest of the audience to have a clear understanding.

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2 hours ago, Pastor Scott Markle said:

Sister Ronda,

Indeed, I did say the following:

However, I ALSO said the following in the very same posting:

Even so, your claim about my position is simply FALSE:

However, I believe that my repeated explanations for the grammar of my own sentence is now sufficient for the rest of the audience to have a clear understanding.

Such was clear long ago.

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Rhonda (and any others that haven't quite wrapped their heads around Bro. Markle's perceived obtuseness).

Altering the font coloration Bro. Markle used in his explanation, I will approach the explanation from a different vectoring:

I was not attempting to indicate that "soul" does not mean "soul," but that it means "physical life/death" in this passage. 

The red here DOES NOT contain his wording, his argument nor his beliefs, the entirety of the red portion is a quote from another source. He is NOT saying (and has not said) that he believes soul means physical life/death. Rather, he quoted ANOTHER individual who said "soul" does not mean "soul," but that it means "physical life/death". He was stating that he was not defending the quote either in part or in entirety.

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