Christ In The Old Testament

[Pastor Scott Markle]

Brother Mitchell,

 

I continue to read and re-read your postings (even as you have instructed that I should do), and I just remain confused by your presentation of your postion.

 

In post #22 you quoted a question from Brother "Blessed Musician," as follows:

. . . Many . . . folks I've met believe that OT Jews were redeemed by works of righteousness.  For the record, what say ye? It is works or grace?

 

To this question you provided the following answer (which you reemphasized in you post #30):

For the record, Ephesians 2 says it isn´t by works, so why would I say it is?

 

Now, Brother "Blessed Musician" provided only two possible options with his question (an either-or question).  You yourself did not provide a possible third option with your answer, and you seem to have denied the "by works" option in your answer.  Thus I assume (yes, I am now assuming something about your position) that your answer means that you hold to the "by grace" option concerning the redemption of Old Testament Jews.  I further assume that you hold to this "by grace" option in accord with the teaching of Ephesians 2:8-9, which teaches a postion of "by grace, through faith, and not of works."  (However, you then appear later in your post #35 to deny the application of Ephesians 2:8-9 unto the case of the rich young ruler, which confuses me concerning your position with regard to the application of Ephesians 2:8-9 unto the saints of the Old Testament.)

 

Yet in your post #35 you stated:

Duet. 6:25, and it shall be our righteousness, if we observe to do all these commandments before the LORD our God, as he hath commanded us.

 

That's not why you are righteous.  Under NT grace, not by works of righteousness which we have done...

 

But that is not the case in the OT where there was no new birth. In the OT salvation is a combination of personal faith in what God told that man to do and the works are the proof of his belief (Abraham was justified by works! - say James)

 

Ever notice Job was called perfect and upright? That's the Holy Spirit commenting on the righteousness of Job. Paul would tell you that he was counting on his own righteous standing to be right with God, as a Jew. Philippians 3 he says that he has more confidence than other men, and that as touching righteousness which is in the law, blameless. 

Just like Zacharias and Elizabeth. 

 

That's not NT salvation. NT salvation is the righteousness of God without the law, .... but to him that worketh not, but beleiveth.... his faith is counted for righteousness... (emphasis added by Pastor Scott Markle)

 

With these comments it appears that you claiming that the way unto salvation was different in the context of the Old Testament than it is now in the context of the New Testament.  Indeed, it appears that you are presenting the way unto salvation for the context of the New Testament as the "righteousness of God," without the works of the law or of righteousness that we might do, being imputed "to him that worketh not, but believeth on him that justifieth the ungodly," "his faith" being counted (or, imputed) unto him "for righteousness."  Yet it also appears that your are presenting the way unto salvation for the context of the Old Testament as "a combination of personal faith" and of works, such that an Old Testament saint counted "on his own righteous standing" (seemingly, through his own righteous works) "to be right with God."

 

(Note: I do find it interesting that two of the four Biblical quotes that you provide above in order to describe New Testament salvation as being without works by grace through faith alone are actually taken out of Romans 4 in a context that relates them unto the Old Testament saint, Abraham.)

 

Furthermore, in that same post, after referencing the case of the rich young ruler from Matthew 19, you stated:

God accepted the good works of a man who believed Him UNTIL the man's sins were paid for by Jesus Christ on the cross. (emphasis added by Pastor Scott Markle)

 

Finally, in your post #42 you stated:

I have not said any one has been saved by works. I have however said very plainly that OT persons had righteous standing before God apart from a belief in Jesus Christ. And I quoted scripture, not my opinion about it, that men had a righteousness before God because they WALKED IN HIS COMMANDMENTS,

 

And again:

OT persons got saved. They did so because of their righteousness before God through obedience to His word. 

 

Although you state that you did not say that "any one has been saved by works," you then appear to indicate that Old Testament saints were saved specifically because of their walk of obedience to the commandments of God's Word. 

 

I am truly confused -- If they were not saved by works of righteousness, but they were saved because of a walk in obedience, is there a Biblical difference between "works of righteousness" and "a walk of obedience"?

[Covenanter]

What is this idea of "Abraham's bosom?" Where is it explained in Scripture, and how & why is Jesus parable used to create a novel doctrine?

[Covenanter]

Where do we see Christ in the OT, explicitly? Preincarnation appearances?

 

Here are a few:

 

Melchizedek - Gen. 14, Psalm 110, Heb. 5, 6, 7.

 

Announcing the birth of Isaac - Gen. 18.

 

Jacob's ladder - Gen. 28

 

The appearance to the elders when the old covenant was sealed by blood - Ex. 24

 

Isaiah's vision - Isa. 6

 

The fiery furnace - Dan. 3

 

John 1:¹⁷ For the law was given by Moses, but grace and truth came by Jesus Christ.

¹⁸ No man hath seen God at any time, the only begotten Son, which is in the bosom of the Father, he hath declared him

 

We are in danger of understating the faith and righteousness of the OT believers.

 

Were they born again ? Jesus expected the OT expert, Nicodemus, to understand that concept. The Fatherhood of God is plainly taught in the OT. The true Israelite was not simply circumcised, but circumcised in heart - the ritual had to be effected spiritually, equivalent to the Holy Spirit filling NT believers.

 

Deu. 31:6 And the Lord thy God will circumcise thine heart, and the heart of thy seed, to love the Lord thy God with all thine heart, and with all thy soul, that thou mayest live.

 

Jer. 4:4 Circumcise yourselves to the Lord, and take away the foreskins of your heart, ye men of Judah and inhabitants of Jerusalem: lest my fury come forth like fire, and burn that none can quench it, because of the evil of your doings.

 

Rom. 2:²⁸ For he is not a Jew, which is one outwardly; neither is that circumcision, which is outward in the flesh:

²⁹ But he is a Jew, which is one inwardly; and circumcision is that of the heart, in the spirit, and not in the letter; whose praise is not of men, but of God.

 

Salvation of the OT saints was the equivalent of new birth. How did David pray?

Psalm 51:⁹ Hide thy face from my sins, and blot out all mine iniquities.

¹⁰ Create in me a clean heart, O God; and renew a right spirit within me.

¹¹ Cast me not away from thy presence; and take not thy holy spirit from me.

[JerryNumbers]

There was only one that obtain righteousness under the law, & that was Christ. And no one has even obeyed 100% of the law except for Christ, so no person has ever obtained righteous under the law.

[DaveW]

Rev 20

 12  And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is the book of life: and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works.

 13  And the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works. note

 14  And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death.

 15  And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire.

Men's works will be judged from the books, but the determinate for eternal destiny is the book of life, not the works recorded in the books.
Now, I see no division in the passage that restricts this book of life judgement to only NT saints and the judgement of works from the books gains no one entry to eternity with God.

So how then do you get your name in the book of life?
Are there two ways? OT and NT?
Or only one way?
The passage makes it pretty clear that works are not the determinate for the lake of fire.

[No Nicolaitans]

As I mentioned in a previous post, God never promised Israel salvation, justification, or righteousness for keeping the law...the only promise(s) that God gave to Israel for keeping his commandments (law) was...

1. They would be his peculiar treasure above all other people (Exodus 19:5-6)
2. God would bless them in the land...materially, in health, militarily, etc. (Deuteronomy 28:1-14)
3. However, he would also punish them with the opposite of the good he promised if they didn't keep his commandments (Deuteronomy 28:15-68)

As we know, they didn't keep his commandments; therefore, God kept his promise, and they suffered the consequences as found in Jeremiah 16...

 

Jeremiah 16:10-13

10   And it shall come to pass, when thou shalt shew this people all these words, and they shall say unto thee, Wherefore hath the LORD pronounced all this great evil against us? or what is our iniquity? or what is our sin that we have committed against the LORD our God?

11   Then shalt thou say unto them, Because your fathers have forsaken me, saith the LORD, and have walked after other gods, and have served them, and have worshipped them, and have forsaken me, and have not kept my law;

12   And ye have done worse than your fathers; for, behold, ye walk every one after the imagination of his evil heart, that they may not hearken unto me:

13   Therefore will I cast you out of this land into a land that ye know not, neither ye nor your fathers; and there shall ye serve other gods day and night; where I will not shew you favour.

[Ukulelemike]

What is this idea of "Abraham's bosom?" Where is it explained in Scripture, and how & why is Jesus parable used to create a novel doctrine?

While the name is obviously coined from the reference to Lazarus being comforted in 'Abraham's bosom', (understanding of course that it was speaking of literally being with Abraham). Some also call it, as Jesus did, 'Paradise', the parable implies that this is NOT Heaven, rather, a place where the OT righteous went until the time of Jesus. It refers to the 'prison' where Jesus went to preach to the spirits. That this is not Heaven is clear, due to the close proximity between those present to those in torments. I have to say, Heaven wouldn't be very nice if it was just a gulf away from hell, where we were close enough to actually hear, and be heard by, those in torments.

 

BY your question, I would assume that you believe that this place was Heaven where Lazarus and Abraham were?

 

From an earlier post, I know you disagree with this, because you believe that those in the OT could have full salvation and eternal life, the same as a NT saint, with complete assurance and security of that salvation while in this life. Thus, when he dies, he would immediately be present in Heaven.

 

However, I wonder, why was Lazarus brought to Abraham, not, say, Jesus, or one of the angels? Why Abraham? Why is there no mention of Jesus, or the Father or the angels, anything we would normally associate with Heaven? I agree, there isn't a whole lot of information to go off of regarding Heaven and what to expect there, but, well, we know when Paul was there, he heard and saw things that it was unlawful for him to repeat, yet Jesus speaks quite clearly of things that happened in the place where Abraham and Lazarus were. Why the different rules? I would think Paul's experience would be similar to Lazarus', and nothing unlawful about speaking it. It kind of seems like their experiences were different because the situation and even locations were different.

[John81]

It would seem that God showed Paul something specific he wasn't to share. However, when John was caught up into heaven, what he was shown he was specifically commanded to write. Different things seen for different reasons and different commands given with each.

[Calvary]

Brother Mitchell,

 

I continue to read and re-read your postings (even as you have instructed that I should do), and I just remain confused by your presentation of your postion.

 

In post #22 you quoted a question from Brother "Blessed Musician," as follows:

 

To this question you provided the following answer (which you reemphasized in you post #30):

 

Now, Brother "Blessed Musician" provided only two possible options with his question (an either-or question).  You yourself did not provide a possible third option with your answer, and you seem to have denied the "by works" option in your answer.  Thus I assume (yes, I am now assuming something about your position) that your answer means that you hold to the "by grace" option concerning the redemption of Old Testament Jews.  I further assume that you hold to this "by grace" option in accord with the teaching of Ephesians 2:8-9, which teaches a postion of "by grace, through faith, and not of works."  (However, you then appear later in your post #35 to deny the application of Ephesians 2:8-9 unto the case of the rich young ruler, which confuses me concerning your position with regard to the application of Ephesians 2:8-9 unto the saints of the Old Testament.)

 

Yet in your post #35 you stated:

 

With these comments it appears that you claiming that the way unto salvation was different in the context of the Old Testament than it is now in the context of the New Testament.  Indeed, it appears that you are presenting the way unto salvation for the context of the New Testament as the "righteousness of God," without the works of the law or of righteousness that we might do, being imputed "to him that worketh not, but believeth on him that justifieth the ungodly," "his faith" being counted (or, imputed) unto him "for righteousness."  Yet it also appears that your are presenting the way unto salvation for the context of the Old Testament as "a combination of personal faith" and of works, such that an Old Testament saint counted "on his own righteous standing" (seemingly, through his own righteous works) "to be right with God."

 

(Note: I do find it interesting that two of the four Biblical quotes that you provide above in order to describe New Testament salvation as being without works by grace through faith alone are actually taken out of Romans 4 in a context that relates them unto the Old Testament saint, Abraham.)

 

Furthermore, in that same post, after referencing the case of the rich young ruler from Matthew 19, you stated:

 

Finally, in your post #42 you stated:

 

And again:

 

Although you state that you did not say that "any one has been saved by works," you then appear to indicate that Old Testament saints were saved specifically because of their walk of obedience to the commandments of God's Word. 

 

I am truly confused -- If they were not saved by works of righteousness, but they were saved because of a walk in obedience, is there a Biblical difference between "works of righteousness" and "a walk of obedience"?

 

My apologies for not responding brother, I have been in the states @ Missions Conferences, still have one more to go starting Sunday. Lord willing I will be back @ my desk to continue our talk soon.

 

God bless, 

calvary

[Calvary]

Greetings brother Scott,

Been out of town for a few weeks, glad to be back to my ministry.

 

I will try to be clear. I understand righteousness to us as NT saints is imputed. I also see quite often in the OT dispensation a righteousness that is personal, or of ones´own  by way of action. I do not however teach that OT saints are "saved" by way of their own righteousness, but do see it very plainly that it afforded them a right standing before God, which He recognized.

What I hear too many imply is that since the law cannot save, no one ever kept the law, hence, salvation cannot be by the works of the law.

 

The error in that thinking is not so much the conclusion, but the understanding of the purpose of the law. Paul states that the law was a schoolmaster. To bring US to Christ. That WE might be justified by faith.

But under the law, and to those under the law, that was not it´s purpose. In fact Paul says that to those under the law, it was binding.

 

Now....

 

At the judgment, God will use the law to justify HIS passing of judgment. He will use the conscience of men to justify HIS passing of judgment. It is God who is justified in using the law. It is not we who are found guilty by not keeping the law, as the Lord does not need to use the law to judge you or I.

 

So right standing n the OT is not the same as being imputed right before God.

That right standing before God in the OT was not salvation in the sense you and I understand it, but it remitted their sins until such time that Jesus paid for them. Hence their inability to enter into heaven.

 

If a man under the OT dispensation could be saved as you and I are saved, then they would have entered into glory upon death, but they did not. Why not? Because the law does not save a man, but it certainly is holy, it certainly is good, it certainly will not acquit, but it will hold a man in right standing before the Lord by REMITTING his sins, IF he is under the law.

 

You and I are not and never were under the law. NO gentile nation EVER was obligated to keep the law. So to bring the effects of the law into a conversation of NT salvation to me is a funny thing, it has no bearing upon my salvation, never did and never will. I am a gentile who is now neither Jew nor Gentile and disputing over the law is a silly thing to me.

Both those that try to make salvation by keeping it, and by those that try to annul the law by grace. Both are wrong.

 

Anyways,

 

I have to run, I am really busy having just come back.

 

Thank you for your kind conversation.

 

God bless,

calvary