Abortion as viewed by Peter Ruckman

[heartstrings]

[quote="Calvary"]
Dr Ruckman later went on to say, [u]Don't you go out of here saying Ruckman says it's alright to kill babies,[/u] don't you do that, I didn't say that. What I said was that life doesn't start until that breath is taken, and [u]if you stick by the book you can't commit murder where there is no life[/u]. Ruckman this, Ruckman that, some of you have Ruckmanitis...[/quote]

[size=150]Life is in the Blood[/size]
Lev 17:11 [u]For the life of the flesh [is] in the blood[/u]: and I have given it to you upon the altar to make an atonement for your souls: for it [is] the blood [that] maketh an atonement for the soul.

Two women at our church, were due just a few days apart, but one of them had complications and they had to take the child several weeks prematurely. So several WEEKS before the due date, you have two children, the same age..........one breathing air and one who is still in the womb, still kicking and wiggling. The ONLY basic differences in these two children for those few weeks was their....

1. location....one was inside the womb, the other was not.
2. Oxygen source....one got it from the air, the other through the umbilical cord.
3. Food source.....one got it from milk, the other through his navel.

[size=150]Innocent Blood[/size]
Both of these two children's hearts were beating and pumping blood through their veins. The both could hear, feel, wiggle and suck their thumbs. If, several weeks prior to the due date, when they took one of these two children by C section, and she started breathing air would it be OK then to murder her? So why would it be OK to murder the unborn one? I promise you on the authority of the word of God and the Holy Spirit that lives in me that it's an abomination and God HATES it.

Pro 6:16 These six [things] doth the LORD [size=150]hate[/size]: yea, seven [are] an abomination unto him:
Pro 6:17 A proud look, a lying tongue, and [size=150]hands that shed innocent blood,[/size]
Pro 6:18 An heart that deviseth wicked imaginations, feet that be swift in running to mischief,
Pro 6:19 A false witness [that] speaketh lies, and he that soweth discord among brethren.


Sir, If the same man made both of the statements, quoted above, the second statement makes the first one a lie. And I don't care if the man IS a genius. Anyone who would make such statements doesn't seem to have much knowledge, discernment or common sense.

[deafnva77]

[quote]Dr Ruckman later went on to say, Don't you go out of here saying [u]Ruckman says it's alright to kill babies[/u], don't you do that, I didn't say that. What I said was that life doesn't start until that breath is taken, and if you stick by the book you can't commit murder where there is no life. [/quote]

What is his definition of babies now?... Is it after they have a breath of life? he still didn't say "Don't you go out of here saying Ruckman says it's alright to have abortions"

[Calvary]

[quote]Read in the OT what the penalty was for a man who hurt a woman and caused a miscarriage...it was pretty much a murder penalty.[/quote]

[b]Exo 21:22 If men strive, and hurt a woman with child, so that her fruit depart from her, and yet no mischief follow: he shall be surely punished, according as the woman's husband will lay upon him; and he shall pay as the judges determine. [/b] No death penalty as you claim there should be if there was life involved.

[b]Exo 21:23 And if any mischief follow, then thou shalt give life for life, [/b]

You were saying? There is only a life for life [size=150]IF [/size]the woman dies. So...? Where is the death penalty for the killing of a baby in the womb? Don't misunderstand me. But your emotional repsonses do not equate or hold the same authority as to what the Bible actually says about the issue.

[size=150]Life for Life[/size] is what saith the Lord. YET, here (Exodus 21) there is no equation.

[quote]He also gave an example of rape in which he said the women should have abortions[/quote]

Again, Samer, I beg to differ with you. He did not say that. He said that he didn;t agree with the reasining the catholics had for baptising those babies. Your conclusion as to how you extrapolate a man's speech does not make him accountable for your superimposed interpretation on it.

Sorry folks, you're making an issue where there was none.

I'm certain that Dr Ruckman has enough to giuve an acount for, but having his words twisted around to conform to your hatred of him won't fly in the Judgment Seat of Christ.

[Anon]

What is not going to fly at the judgement seat is Ruckman trying to explain why so many women aborted their babies under his watch.

That's if he makes it to that particular judgement seat....

[Calvary]

[quote="Kitagrl"]What is not going to fly at the judgement seat is Ruckman trying to explain why so many women aborted their babies under his watch.

That's if he makes it to that particular judgement seat....[/quote]

Why is Dr. Ruckman responsible for the abortion rate in America and your church is not? :puzzled:

[deafnva77]

[quote="Calvary"]

[quote]He also gave an example of rape in which he said the women should have abortions[/quote]

Again, Samer, I beg to differ with you. He did not say that. [u][b]He said that he didn;t agree with the reasining the catholics had for baptising those babies.[/b][/u] Your conclusion as to how you extrapolate a man's speech does not make him accountable for your superimposed interpretation on it.

Sorry folks, you're making an issue where there was none.

I'm certain that Dr Ruckman has enough to giuve an acount for, but having his words twisted around to conform to your hatred of him won't fly in the Judgment Seat of Christ.[/quote]

what does that have do with his sermon? I didn't know his sermon was about Catholic reasoning. I thought it was about a person doesn't become a living soul until he have his first breath.
Those babies were not meant to be aborted, so those catholics were right to raise them (if it was necessary) so they can have food, shelter, etc. just like all other unsaved people. And just like all other unsaved people teach their children their religion, catholics will teach theirs. Sorry you are following Ruckman to believe it is ok to have abortion because you are not killing a life.

[Anon]

[quote="Calvary"][quote="Kitagrl"]What is not going to fly at the judgement seat is Ruckman trying to explain why so many women aborted their babies under his watch.

That's if he makes it to that particular judgement seat....[/quote]

Why is Dr. Ruckman responsible for the abortion rate in America and your church is not? :puzzled:[/quote]

I didn't say that.

I said he is responsible for the women under the sound of his voice that get abortions because he says they aren't human. THAT is what he has to answer for. Among a bazillion other things....

[Calvary]

[quote="deafnva77"][quote="Calvary"]

[quote]He also gave an example of rape in which he said the women should have abortions[/quote]

Again, Samer, I beg to differ with you. He did not say that. [u][b]He said that he didn;t agree with the reasining the catholics had for baptising those babies.[/b][/u] Your conclusion as to how you extrapolate a man's speech does not make him accountable for your superimposed interpretation on it.

Sorry folks, you're making an issue where there was none.

I'm certain that Dr Ruckman has enough to giuve an acount for, but having his words twisted around to conform to your hatred of him won't fly in the Judgment Seat of Christ.[/quote]

what does that have do with his sermon? I didn't know his sermon was about Catholic reasoning. I thought it was about a person doesn't become a living soul until he have his first breath.
Those babies were not meant to be aborted, so those catholics were right to raise them (if it was necessary) so they can have food, shelter, etc. just like all other unsaved people. And just like all other unsaved people teach their children their religion, catholics will teach theirs. Sorry you are following Ruckman to believe it is ok to have abortion because you are not killing a life.[/quote]

Beloved, we really don't know what the sermon was about because it was cut and pasted to make a preconcieved point.

According to Exodus 21 how does your statement that all babies were meant to be born fit in with the scriptures? What about babies who don't make it to term? Was that against the will of God? Where does the Bible teach that a baby goes right to heaven? If that is so should we be glad that the abortionists are doing a better job of populating heaven then we are as Christians?

Emotional comments do not have the same authority as what the scriptures actually say.

[deafnva77]

It's doesn't matter if it is cut and paste. You already believe abortion is not murder.

God bring life, and he take away life. It is not our job to do it. And when we do take away life, it is murder

[Guest Guest]

[quote]There is only a life for life IF the woman dies. So...? Where is the death penalty for the killing of a baby in the womb? Don't misunderstand me. But your emotional repsonses do not equate or hold the same authority as to what the Bible actually says about the issue.

Life for Life is what saith the Lord. YET, here (Exodus 21) there is no equation. [/quote]


[color=#0000FF]"Job 3:16-19 Or as an hidden untimely birth I had not been; as [u]infants[/u] which never saw light. There the prisoners rest together; they hear not the voice of the oppressor. The small and great are there; and the servant is free from his master."[/color]

So an unborn "infant" like this verse speaks of is not alive in your view? Think also of the common biblical phrase "with child". Children are not alive? Then we have the whole problem of Christ, for nine months Christ had no life? I thought scripture says he died only once. Ruckmans position is again completely against scripture as very often seems to be the case. :bonK:


:hijack: As a side I noticed on that sermon link Samer gave that he also said Jesus had long hair and mocked those who say otherwise. Wonder what scripture he thinks he gets that from. :roll

[Guest Guest]

It's funny that this is being brought up on here now... since I JUST saw someone mention the same issue on a Facebook group a few days ago.

First of all, I'll say this. This is definitely one of those issues where I strongly disagree with Dr. Ruckman. I have seen some possible Biblical evidence that a person does not have a soul till he takes his first breath (so I have doubts about those millions of aborted babies being in heaven), but that does NOT change the fact that life begins at conception and to abort a baby is murder. I saw someone from PBI say that Dr. Ruckman believes it's ok to abort a baby conceived by rape, and this would be where I strongly disagree with him.

This is definitely not enough "proof" for anyone to claim that Dr. Ruckman can't be saved, though. That's just crazy. If I had as much passion defending the man as some of you have against him, I'd be a Ruckman worshipper. :Bleh I seriously think some of you really hate Dr. Ruckman, a fellow brother in Christ.

[Guest Guest]

[quote="Kitagrl"]Oh man that guy makes me want to SCREAM.....

He is not saved, I'll say that right now...

As a matter of fact, I read his testimony...on Wikipedia granted...and he had so many demonic experiences before "salvation" that given his post-"salvation" beliefs on aliens and abortion and marriage, I can only rather wonder if the devil is still using him as a great deceiver today. Drawing people away from the Great Commission...focusing their attentions away from God's heartbeat--souls.[/quote]

Wikipedia isn't a reliable source for information.

[Anon]

Wikipedia took the information from Ruckman's book.

Genesis 25:21 And Isaac intreated the LORD for his wife, because she was barren: and the LORD was intreated of him, and Rebekah his wife conceived.
22 [size=150]And the children struggled together within her[/size]; and she said, If it be so, why am I thus? And she went to enquire of the LORD.
23 And the LORD said unto her, Two nations [size=150]are [/size]in thy womb, and two manner of people shall be separated from thy bowels; and the one people shall be stronger than the other people; and the elder shall serve the younger.
24 And when her days to be delivered were fulfilled, behold, there were twins in her womb.
25 And the first came out red, all over like an hairy garment; and they called his name Esau.
26 And after that came his brother out, and his hand took hold on Esau?s heel; and his name was called Jacob: and Isaac was threescore years old when she bare them.


How can you say these guys were not human, and were without souls, before birth?

And why would God give one child a soul after a premature birth at 7 months....but a normal kid wouldn't get a soul until 9 months? So the 7 month old kid would get to go to heaven if he died but the 8 month gestation kid would not because he's not a person?

This is extremely poor and confusing "logic".

Incidentally, check out the passage again....Jacob already had a personality before being born! Both of them did! Fighting...and Jacob still hanging on when he was born.

[Anon]

Oh I will add that some people believe that aborted or miscarried babies will grow up in the millenium and get to choose or reject Christ.

I don't think there's alot of evidence to support that....however, it makes more sense than picking and choosing when a baby gets a soul or "personhood".

[Guest Guest]

[quote="Kitagrl"]Oh I will add that some people believe that aborted or miscarried babies will grow up in the millenium and get to choose or reject Christ.

I don't think there's alot of evidence to support that....however, it makes more sense than picking and choosing when a baby gets a soul or "personhood".[/quote]

I never said I agree with the "breath of life" thing. It's pretty much a theory, as far as I'm concerned. We won't know till we get to Heaven if we'll see millions of aborted babies or not. I just know that if I ever have a miscarriage (God forbid), I'm not going to be 100% counting on seeing that baby in Heaven. Think of how many miscarriages women have had and didn't even know it. (I read about that somewhere... it happens) That would be crazy (but a pleasant surprise) if I found out I had a few babies up in Heaven that I didn't know existed.

I just don't think it's right for someone to claim that just because Ruckman believes this, he's unsaved. It's also not a good enough reason to throw out everything else he ever says or writes. (btw, I've known he believes this since I was like 7... before I knew much about Ruckman... so yeah, it's no surprise to me)