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Way Of Life - Paul Chappell Misses The Fundamental Point In The Music Issue

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We are entering a time when there will be not complete separation from CCM. If one rejects any song CCM uses because people hearing us sing the song may look it up online and hear the CCM version, we are going to have to start eliminating many of the songs from our hymnbooks.

 

CCM artists have been recording many old hymns and adapting old hymns and putting those on their albums and playing them in concerts and at churches. There are many younger folks and unchurched folks who have never heard these songs before so their only knowledge of them comes from CCM.

 

When someone who hears one of these songs, even performed as in the hymnal, when they look online to find out more about the song the CCM connections are at or near the top of search results.

 

So now what? If playing a modern biblically sound song a CCM artist performs is rejected because someone might turn to CCM when they look up information about the song online, the same would have to also apply to the hymns CCM artists perform too because when those songs are looked up online one quickly finds the CCM connection, learns of CCM albums, concerts, videos on YouTube, etc.

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Does anyone else here find it ironic that so many are harshly criticizing Dr. Cloud because he criticized...?  Probably not, because Dr. Cloud tends to point out areas where so many of our, ahem, heroes have Achille's heels.  And, yes, he himself has problems.  He is human, after all. No defense of him, just truth.  So, dig into his ministry and point out his wrongs.   

 

And, irishman, I just wanted to note that Dr. Hyles did not originate the idea that one can be sincere yet sincerely wrong...so using that idea does not necessarily mean one is quoting him.  Just sayin'.  :wink

 

Yes. Even when its about love sometimes thing have to be pointed out that are wrong, instead of just patting them on the back saying, "That'a Boy," pretending things are just great when they're not.

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We are entering a time when there will be not complete separation from CCM. If one rejects any song CCM uses because people hearing us sing the song may look it up online and hear the CCM version, we are going to have to start eliminating many of the songs from our hymnbooks.

 

CCM artists have been recording many old hymns and adapting old hymns and putting those on their albums and playing them in concerts and at churches. There are many younger folks and unchurched folks who have never heard these songs before so their only knowledge of them comes from CCM.

 

When someone who hears one of these songs, even performed as in the hymnal, when they look online to find out more about the song the CCM connections are at or near the top of search results.

 

So now what? If playing a modern biblically sound song a CCM artist performs is rejected because someone might turn to CCM when they look up information about the song online, the same would have to also apply to the hymns CCM artists perform too because when those songs are looked up online one quickly finds the CCM connection, learns of CCM albums, concerts, videos on YouTube, etc.

 

 

Its amazing, the unchurched people think certain songs are funeral songs only, & can't understand if they happen to attend a church services & hear what they call a funeral songs sang.

 

Years ago I gave a friend a ride from a coffee shop & had a tape of old church hymns playing, after we had gone a ways he said, "Wow, that some very good old songs, its a shame we never hear them any more."

 

I could not resist, I had to say it, & I did, "Eddie if you would go to church with me you would hear them every Sunday!"

 

Strange, he made no comment, & changed the subject.

 

So now what. If there's least bit of doubt a song is not appropriate, don't sing it.

 

Ro 14:23 And he that doubteth is damned if he eat, because he eateth not of faith: for whatsoever is not of faith is sin.

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I completely agree that separated believers should not be searching the “sewers” (as UkeMike put it) for spirit-filled music. There is plenty of time-tested music to use.

 

1. Is the “cleaned up” music sinful? I cannot answer that. Regarding complex matters that I cannot definitively answer, I take the safe route. I could not perform this song in good conscience as a musician while being aware of its origin.

 

2. The Lancaster ministry is being used of God. I sincerely hope that in the thousands of songs performed by this church over the years, that the few songs in question are but anomalies in the big picture.

 

 

1.  Yes it still is, it's tainted.  Just read your first sentence and apply it to your question.  It's also, probably most importantly, about separating from those in error.  If we yoke with them in any way, they will bring us down.

 

2.  Sadly it's not.  I know of graduates who've developed an appetite for the hard stuff.  They fooled around with the adapted songs in school and now listen to CCM regularly and see nothing wrong with it.  A little leaven does what?

 

I agree-I pray that the few CM songs at Lancaster are the exception, not the rule-yet my concern is their considering themselves to be above any reproach or criticism, and that attitude will surely bring about a fall. Especially since originally when the issue was brought up, it was claimed the music director brought the music in while Dr. Chapell was ill, and it was fixed when he was back, yet it has not only not been fixed, but it has continued, and been defended, so its not an issue that is unknown. There is an intention to continue to use it.

 

Amen!

 

We are entering a time when there will be not complete separation from CCM. If one rejects any song CCM uses because people hearing us sing the song may look it up online and hear the CCM version, we are going to have to start eliminating many of the songs from our hymnbooks.

 

So now what? If playing a modern biblically sound song a CCM artist performs is rejected because someone might turn to CCM when they look up information about the song online, the same would have to also apply to the hymns CCM artists perform too because when those songs are looked up online one quickly finds the CCM connection, learns of CCM albums, concerts, videos on YouTube, etc.

 

No, no no brother John.  It's up to use to teach the babes in Christ about Godly music so when they hear some rock group using the electric guitar to play the star spangled banner or When We All Get To Heaven in a similar manner they'll have the wisdom to turn it off or leave the room or walk out of that "church".

 

Please remember that CCM is being used by Satan to build bridges between separated, Godly Christians and the emerging church movement.  Of course CCM will play and adapt the Godly songs, they'll use every trick to get you and your children.  And you know what John?  They openly admit it.  

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No, no no brother John.  It's up to use to teach the babes in Christ about Godly music so when they hear some rock group using the electric guitar to play the star spangled banner or When We All Get To Heaven in a similar manner they'll have the wisdom to turn it off or leave the room or walk out of that "church".

 

Please remember that CCM is being used by Satan to build bridges between separated, Godly Christians and the emerging church movement.  Of course CCM will play and adapt the Godly songs, they'll use every trick to get you and your children.  And you know what John?  They openly admit it.  

If that works with adapted old hymns it would work with adapted modern hymns too.

 

Many older hymns have been used as a "bridge" to unbiblical beliefs and churches. Many folks have learned of Fanny Crosby or Luther and others from old hymns and then followed their understanding of Scripture and Christianity. They have accepted infant baptism, joining the Lutheran church, adopted a universalist viewpoint, become Methodist, etc.

 

It's not uncommon at all to get in a discussion with folks in many churches and find out they are there because of hearing certain old-time preachers quoted or old hymns sang and they looked into these and decided if they liked those quotes and songs they should learn more about the authors and follow their example. Some have become "Calvinists", Methodists, universalists, Wesleyians, Lutherans, believers in infant baptism, believing they are to usher in Paradise themselves, etc.

 

Many churches which first used the hymns new to them (what we now call old hymns) soon fell away from their solid stand in the Word. One area this was greatly noted in was the music Moody used. When Moody travelled to the United Kingdom, taking not only his new style preaching with him, but also his music, the biblically conservative churches raised warnings yet many churches still welcomed Moody and his music. There was an immediate appearance of a great move of God but once Moody left, so did what seemed a revival, and so did most of the new "converts" and the churches which took up the music Moody used in their churches soon moved to the left. Yet today much of the same music Moody promoted is used in our IFB churches.

 

We are consistently inconsistent in our approach to music. I've even heard good Baptist pastors who rail against "rockin' music" in church say that he's speaking of white Baptists and means nothing against black Baptists because it's okay for them to "rock it up" in church.

 

We aren't going to change the music individual churches, colleges or ministries use or accept today any more than our ancestors did in the past. Chappell and West Coast have made their choice, and Sword of the Lord is going along with them. After being confronted about the music used at West Coast the Sword eventually wrote in their paper about music, which sounded good to most IFBs yet they failed to address Chappell, West Coast or any of the others in the "Sword camp" who use CCM in one manner or another. In fact, they specifically featured Chappell as one who would be speaking at one of the meetings.

 

We can probably all make guesses where this will lead, and can see that further splits among IFBs are coming, and there will be more "camps" forming or greater division between current "camps", and eventually one or more "camps" will form a new branch of Baptists to distinguish themselves from the other IFB "camps".

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If that works with adapted old hymns it would work with adapted modern hymns too.

 

Many older hymns have been used as a "bridge" to unbiblical beliefs and churches. Many folks have learned of Fanny Crosby or Luther and others from old hymns and then followed their understanding of Scripture and Christianity. They have accepted infant baptism, joining the Lutheran church, adopted a universalist viewpoint, become Methodist, etc.

In this day of information, that is certainly a danger-however, that's why we preachers, and god, godly parents, need to always be sure that our people know the true word of God. I like Spurgeon and a lot of his preaching, but having a good grounding, I have never been tempted to follow in his Calvinist footprints

 

It's not uncommon at all to get in a discussion with folks in many churches and find out they are there because of hearing certain old-time preachers quoted or old hymns sang and they looked into these and decided if they liked those quotes and songs they should learn more about the authors and follow their example. Some have become "Calvinists", Methodists, universalists, Wesleyians, Lutherans, believers in infant baptism, believing they are to usher in Paradise themselves, etc.

 

Many churches which first used the hymns new to them (what we now call old hymns) soon fell away from their solid stand in the Word. One area this was greatly noted in was the music Moody used. When Moody travelled to the United Kingdom, taking not only his new style preaching with him, but also his music, the biblically conservative churches raised warnings yet many churches still welcomed Moody and his music. There was an immediate appearance of a great move of God but once Moody left, so did what seemed a revival, and so did most of the new "converts" and the churches which took up the music Moody used in their churches soon moved to the left. Yet today much of the same music Moody promoted is used in our IFB churches.

 

We are consistently inconsistent in our approach to music. I've even heard good Baptist pastors who rail against "rockin' music" in church say that he's speaking of white Baptists and means nothing against black Baptists because it's okay for them to "rock it up" in church.

 

We aren't going to change the music individual churches, colleges or ministries use or accept today any more than our ancestors did in the past. Chappell and West Coast have made their choice, and Sword of the Lord is going along with them. After being confronted about the music used at West Coast the Sword eventually wrote in their paper about music, which sounded good to most IFBs yet they failed to address Chappell, West Coast or any of the others in the "Sword camp" who use CCM in one manner or another. In fact, they specifically featured Chappell as one who would be speaking at one of the meetings.

 

We can probably all make guesses where this will lead, and can see that further splits among IFBs are coming, and there will be more "camps" forming or greater division between current "camps", and eventually one or more "camps" will form a new branch of Baptists to distinguish themselves from the other IFB "camps".

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The sad thing is so many people can't seem to differentiate between new godly music and CCM.  Just because a song is new doesn't mean it's bad - and nobody who stands against CCM would say so.  But that is an argument used by many in order to justify their usage of CCM.  

 

The residents at the nursing home where we minister love the old songs.  Even the unchurched among them know them, and will sing with us when they attend service.  But they also love to hear the specials where some not-so-old songs (never CCM, though) are sometimes sung.

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The sad thing is so many people can't seem to differentiate between new godly music and CCM.  Just because a song is new doesn't mean it's bad - and nobody who stands against CCM would say so.  But that is an argument used by many in order to justify their usage of CCM.  

 

The residents at the nursing home where we minister love the old songs.  Even the unchurched among them know them, and will sing with us when they attend service.  But they also love to hear the specials where some not-so-old songs (never CCM, though) are sometimes sung.

The problem is not understanding the difference between current and contemporary, in regards to music. Contemporary music is music that adheres to the popular styles of the day, while current or new just refers to a song  wrote recently-it is a new song, but it can be done in the old style, and is hence not contemporary, by definition.

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The problem is not understanding the difference between current and contemporary, in regards to music. Contemporary music is music that adheres to the popular styles of the day, while current or new just refers to a song  wrote recently-it is a new song, but it can be done in the old style, and is hence not contemporary, by definition.

Oh, I agree there!  Defenders of CCM, though, try to blend the two, claiming that people who don't want the influence of CCM are just not liking modern hymnody.

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Oh, I agree there!  Defenders of CCM, though, try to blend the two, claiming that people who don't want the influence of CCM are just not liking modern hymnody.

And this is not different than the volutionists that insist, because creationists reject evolution, we must be rejecting of science in general, and so we are hypocrites for using a computer or driving a car. I ask them, how did the theory of evolution at all contribue to the invention of the car or the computer? Evolution has not contributed one iota of good to ANY study of any other sciences, nor any good to the world as a whole.  We like science, but dislike bad science.

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Many older hymns have been used as a "bridge" to unbiblical beliefs and churches. Many folks have learned of Fanny Crosby or Luther and others from old hymns and then followed their understanding of Scripture and Christianity. They have accepted infant baptism, joining the Lutheran church, adopted a universalist viewpoint, become Methodist, etc.

 

We are consistently inconsistent in our approach to music. 

 

I just realized, it's that time again!  Time for me and you to disagree about music again!   :boxing:

 

In three years of study on this topic, you are the only one to state this and I've seen no evidence to support it on any scale though I wouldn't be surprised by there being a few over the years.

 

As to your last, speak for yourself John!  Yes, the IFB "movement" does not have the same standards and that's because they are independent and either fail to or do rightly divide the truth from the Scriptures.  

 

Many books have been written showing from the Scriptures what the principals of Godly music are; one just has to read them and ask for wisdom from the Lord. 

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So who here has bothered to go to the Lancaster Baptist website and:

1. watch the sermons

2. hear the music for themselves.

3. write/e mail/ phone Bro. Chappell and ask him yourself rather than get into an argument on the internet about it?

4. Pray! when your done praying, PRAY SOME MORE!!  

5. PRAY! (cant say it enough!)

 

 

If you don't like Paul Chappell/Lancaster Baptist Church/ their music/ their ministry then that's fine. Its your prerogative.

If you don't like David Cloud and what he does, again, your prerogative.

 

I find it a waist of good time to log on and bicker with each other over someone else's ministry when that person will ultimately stand before God and give a full account of his doings.

 

Lets all just log off for a bit and spend a lot more time in prayer, for yourself, your own ministry and God's guidance on both David Cloud and Paul Chappell. (Something tells me neither one of them would object to that!)

 

 

Dr. Roberson   

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I just realized, it's that time again!  Time for me and you to disagree about music again!   :boxing:

 

In three years of study on this topic, you are the only one to state this and I've seen no evidence to support it on any scale though I wouldn't be surprised by there being a few over the years.

 

As to your last, speak for yourself John!  Yes, the IFB "movement" does not have the same standards and that's because they are independent and either fail to or do rightly divide the truth from the Scriptures.  

 

Many books have been written showing from the Scriptures what the principals of Godly music are; one just has to read them and ask for wisdom from the Lord. 

When I said "we" I was mostly referring to IFBs, not us and individuals, but it also covers most of Christianity too.

 

The fact those books exist yet we still have no consistent IFB view on music serves to prove the point. For everyone who sites the books you have (previously, I remember them) as a source to go by, there are others who have biblical objections to some aspects of those books, and then there are those who will point to various other books claiming they are the ones which lay out Scriptural principles of Godly music.

 

When we look across the spectrum of IFB and other conservative churches we find a wide variety of music styles. If we look more broadly and include those sort of churches around the world then they music styles are even more varied.

 

The thing about principles, rather than outright commands for a matter, is that there are different ways apply those principles and just because First Baptist and Second Baptist might do some things differently doesn't necessarily mean one is right and one is wrong.

 

I've heard some folks say certain music is "sensual" or "fleshly" but they have no real good, all encompassing definition of what that means. They give examples of songs and some I may see why they are thinking that, but with others I have no idea. At the same time, some will give an example of a song they say is okay and it's a song I would never agree to in our church.

 

We (not you and I, IFB and conservative Christians in general) are never going to come to agreement on the subject of music. There are dozens or scores of musical divides. We can't even agree on acceptable and unacceptable musical instruments, let alone various music styles, what's a matter of Godly or ungodly and what's a matter of preference, whether women should sing in church or not, or views upon bands, orchestras, choirs, solo performers, canned music, etc.

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Yes, the churches that use CCM sincerely says, "We use only Christ honoring music."

 

It matter not how sincere they may be, if they're wrong, they are wrong, and its great some will speak up rebuking them instead of like so many, pat them on the back saying, "Way to go."

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Splits are something I do not like, but if false teaching comes in I will gladly split so that I can follow Christ.

 

And one thing for sure if we do not stand for the proper God honoring music, we will influence no one in a good manner, yet if we stand for true God honoring music, we just might influence someone properly, & even if we don't we can be sure to be pleasing to our God, & the latter is very important, even if you have to stand alone

 

Some seems to be trying to discourage us for standing for God honoring music, perhaps they know not the difference.

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I actually looked for this link to post previoiusly but I couldn't find it quickly. Here it is:

 

http://vimeo.com/16879851

Looking forward to hearing what folks think who actually listen to the whole sermon.

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So who here has bothered to go to the Lancaster Baptist website and:

1. watch the sermons

2. hear the music for themselves.

3. write/e mail/ phone Bro. Chappell and ask him yourself rather than get into an argument on the internet about it?

4. Pray! when your done praying, PRAY SOME MORE!!  

5. PRAY! (cant say it enough!)

 

 

Me except for 3!  Even listened to Pastor Chappell's preaching tonight on the radio and it was good and honoring to the Lord. 

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Public Challenge:

 

Set me straight. Please show me a link to music (or anything) produced by Brother Chappell’s ministry that is sinful. Give me your best evidence. I personally have been on both sides of the fence regarding music. I’m confident that you won’t meet anyone that HATES ungodly music more than I do.

 

I have many personal friends that are spirit-filled men and women that have attended the recent leadership conference. I heard several comments from them praising the excellent music program there. So until someone provides me with a video or audio of sinful music, I’m siding with my friend’s discernment on this issue who attended the conference first hand.

 

Here is your link:

 

http://wcbc.edu/sites/default/files/media/mp3/My-Redeemer-is-Faithful-and-True.mp3

 

This is a song produced by West Coast Baptist College and hosted on there site.

 

Now, here is a link to Steven Curtis Chapman singing it (he wrote the song):

 

http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=jy3KgDXQnxA

 

 

Here is another link:

 

http://wcbc.edu/sites/default/files/media/mp3/As-Bread-that-is-Broken.mp3

 

Compare with this one: The song is published by Integrity's Hosanna! Music

(a charismatic publishing company) written by Claire Cloninger and Paul Baloche.

The singer is Ross Parsley. He is a charismatic worship leader.

 

http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=C5HRWyendZo

Edited by brosmith

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Looking forward to hearing what folks think who actually listen to the whole sermon.

 

Paul Chappell may say some good sounding words but actions speak louder than words. The actions of Lancaster Baptist Church and West Coast Baptist College tell me that they don't know what Christ honoring music is. I call it being hypocritical and I will even go further and say that he is deceiving and being deceived. Try listening to their online radio station. Try watching some of their "funny" youth conference videos on youtube. Both are carnal and some of the videos are gross and disgusting.

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Here is your link:

 

http://wcbc.edu/sites/default/files/media/mp3/My-Redeemer-is-Faithful-and-True.mp3

 

This is a song produced by West Coast Baptist College and hosted on there site.

 

Now, here is a link to Steven Curtis Chapman singing it (he wrote the song):

 

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jy3KgDXQnxA

 

I mentioned in a subsequent post that I was discouraged by this. This topic news to me and I definitely don't like it. I'm not very familiar with the Lancaster ministry but I've received good reports by friends that attended the recent conference.

 

My personal stance is that CCM is a masterstroke by spiritual wickedness in high places and we shouldn't touch it with a 10' pole. Again, I'm grieved about this.

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I mentioned in a subsequent post that I was discouraged by this. This topic news to me and I definitely don't like it. I'm not very familiar with the Lancaster ministry but I've received good reports by friends that attended the recent conference.

 

My personal stance is that CCM is a masterstroke by spiritual wickedness in high places and we shouldn't touch it with a 10' pole. Again, I'm grieved about this.

So what is your take on Chappell's statements regarding this matter in the video you posted?

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CCM is truly an issue in churches, especially in churches were the youth of Christian America go for Bible training...and then spread out across the country and the world, bringing with them what they learned in college.  That is one big reason we are to be concerned with this, and the one main reason DCloud "harps" on it.  Not to accuse brethren, not to disparage a work of the Lord, not to be preeminent.  He truly is burdened with the direction Christianity in general and IFB in particular is headed.  And, as was suggested earlier, he would truly appreciate prayer.

 

Paul Chappell has had an impact on my own life in a couple of different areas. I will always be grateful for the fact that he led my Uncle Paul to the Lord. My uncle is in Heaven, and has been for a number of years.  He was in the Navy when Bro. Chappell got hold of him.  :icon_smile:   After he got saved, he led my dad to the Lord.  My dad was also in the Navy, and ended up attending Larry Chappell's church while stationed in CA.  (This was before Larry went the way he did...). (It's interesting to note that my dad and my uncle were the only two in their family who left the state of WV and who left the Pentecostal religion and became Baptist.)  My dad has been in Heaven for almost a year and a half.  Both of those men were saved because Paul Chappell obeyed the Great Commission.

One of my brothers attended church there for a while.  This was a number of years ago, before the influence of CCM was beginning to permeate IFBdom.  I'm not going to go into details, but it was not a good experience for him or his family.  There were some decidedly unbliblical things that happened, and he and his family did not remain.  Now, whether the pastor was part of the problem or not, I don't know.  But if it's happening on his watch, as it were...But I'm sure Brother Chappell would also appreciate prayer.

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I mentioned in a subsequent post that I was discouraged by this. This topic news to me and I definitely don't like it. I'm not very familiar with the Lancaster ministry but I've received good reports by friends that attended the recent conference.

 

My personal stance is that CCM is a masterstroke by spiritual wickedness in high places and we shouldn't touch it with a 10' pole. Again, I'm grieved about this.

 

Don't be discouraged! Disappointed, yes. Discouraged, no. 

 

"Why art thou cast down, O my soul? and why art thou disquieted within me? hope thou in God: for I shall yet praise him, who is the health of my countenance, and my God."

 

:godisgood:

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Don't be discouraged! Disappointed, yes. Discouraged, no. 

 

"Why art thou cast down, O my soul? and why art thou disquieted within me? hope thou in God: for I shall yet praise him, who is the health of my countenance, and my God."

 

:godisgood:

Absolutely!  We all need to keep our eyes on the Lord rather than man.  And as David did, encourage ourselves in the Lord.

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