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Way Of Life - Paul Chappell Misses The Fundamental Point In The Music Issue

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The-Road-Ahead-book
Paul Chappell’s new book The Road Ahead: Ten Steps to Authentic Ministry for Independent Baptists suggests a path for independent Baptist churches to follow for the coming days. 

That Chappell, pastor of Lancaster Baptist Church of Lancaster, California, represents the thinking of a large number of independent Baptists is evident by the recommendations of prominent preachers who have signed on to his statement at the following page on Chappell’s blog: ministry127.com/theroadahead. 

The Road Ahead contains many good thoughts. I was personally challenged and edified by various statements. I believe that Pastor Chappell is a sincere man who has a passion to do right before God.

I wish that I could stop right here and join the crowd that is running over to Ministry127.com to sign the form, and that the rest of this review could consist of the statements from the book with which I strongly agree. 

But my conscience won’t allow me to do that. I’m convinced that the book, taken as a whole, sounds the death knell on churches who follow the path laid out therein and particularly those churches that follow Chappell's example in and philosophy of music. 

Many are impressed with all of the good things that exist at Lancaster Baptist Church. They believe that any problems are relatively minor matters, but if a problem happens to be structural and foundational, that is no minor matter. 

Today Lancaster Baptist Church is indeed a great house that is graced with many biblical features, but  no house will stand if the foundation is weak AT ANY POINT. And if those living in a great house ignore a foundational issue, and instead of fixing the foundation they blacklist the “foundation critics” and mock them, they are guaranteeing the collapse of the house. 

I am convinced that this is exactly what Pastor Chappell is doing and I single him out only because of his national and international influence and because he obviously wants to help set the agenda for other churches by writing such a book.

This is not a “local church issue” and it is not a private matter. 

Pastor Chappell mentions music, but only to trivialize what is at stake while ignoring the major issues. 

On the one hand he says that “spiritual music is essential to spiritual growth,” which is a great statement as far as it goes, but when it comes to defining and identifying spiritual music, he reverts to shallow cliches and to the following type of statements that treat the music issue largely as a personal issue:

“If my brother has a slight variance in his music standard ... it doesn’t matter! I don’t have to embrace his personal convictions--to the right or left--as my own. But neither do I need to castigate him to keep my standing before God” (Paul Chappell, The Road Ahead, Kindle location 1879). 



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I think Paul Chappel is a pretty strong pastor and leader, and while pastor at Lancaster, he will be able to contain to negative effects of the adapted CCM. However, I think what Bro. Chappel is missing is: what hapens when he is gone? There are numerous examples of the CCM slowly moving in under a very consevative preacher, who keeps it in more or less of a strangle-hold, and keeps its influence contained, but when that pastor passes on, that spirit is let loose and within a decade, that formerly godly, conservative fundamental church is completely contemporary. This will happen at Lancaster if a change is not made because Pastor Chappel can only maintain discipline while he is around, but if he Lord tarries and a new pastor takes over, what will keep him from following the natural path? Its happening all around us and they will not be immune.

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I think Paul Chappel is a pretty strong pastor and leader, and while pastor at Lancaster, he will be able to contain to negative effects of the adapted CCM. However, I think what Bro. Chappel is missing is: what hapens when he is gone? There are numerous examples of the CCM slowly moving in under a very consevative preacher, who keeps it in more or less of a strangle-hold, and keeps its influence contained, but when that pastor passes on, that spirit is let loose and within a decade, that formerly godly, conservative fundamental church is completely contemporary. This will happen at Lancaster if a change is not made because Pastor Chappel can only maintain discipline while he is around, but if he Lord tarries and a new pastor takes over, what will keep him from following the natural path? Its happening all around us and they will not be immune.

This brings up a larger, more important issue, and that's one of the passing of the torch from one pastor to another. With or without CCM we continually see good churches go a different direction with the introduction of a new pastor.

 

Many pastors and churches are doing a very poor job of preparing for the eventual replacement of their current pastor with a new pastor. Pastors and churches are failing to find, disciple and train men to be prepared to take the role of senior pastor and maintain consistency in the church with the change.

 

Instead, we so often see a new pastor hastily brought into a church, one that no one really knows, one that doesn't know that church, one which takes the church in a different direction. There is also the problem of those pastors who choose weak associate pastors so they don't feel threatened and have associate pastors they fail to train and work closely with, so when one of these takes over the church they are ill equipped to consistently carry the church forward, and very often have formed some dislike for the way the old senior pastor did things and they want to radically change things in the church in order to exert their power and prove they are in control.

 

Due to a lack of proper secession of leadership in our churches we often see good churches turn to worldly music, MVs, lowering or dropping of biblical standards of dress and conduct, and other issues which weakens churches, turns hot churches lukewarm, or eventually makes a good church into a worldly church.

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Pastor Chappell says, "...but in practice the thing that he emphasizes the most is that there is a wide variety of acceptable music styles and that the most important thing is the heart and sincerity of the worshippers."

 

 

Does he say that? Yi! That's what the evangelicals say.  :wacko:

 

Edited to add: Not that I think he's evangelical. Just shows a lack of discernment.

Edited by Salyan

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This brings up a larger, more important issue, and that's one of the passing of the torch from one pastor to another. With or without CCM we continually see good churches go a different direction with the introduction of a new pastor.

 

Many pastors and churches are doing a very poor job of preparing for the eventual replacement of their current pastor with a new pastor. Pastors and churches are failing to find, disciple and train men to be prepared to take the role of senior pastor and maintain consistency in the church with the change.

 

Instead, we so often see a new pastor hastily brought into a church, one that no one really knows, one that doesn't know that church, one which takes the church in a different direction. There is also the problem of those pastors who choose weak associate pastors so they don't feel threatened and have associate pastors they fail to train and work closely with, so when one of these takes over the church they are ill equipped to consistently carry the church forward, and very often have formed some dislike for the way the old senior pastor did things and they want to radically change things in the church in order to exert their power and prove they are in control.

 

Due to a lack of proper secession of leadership in our churches we often see good churches turn to worldly music, MVs, lowering or dropping of biblical standards of dress and conduct, and other issues which weakens churches, turns hot churches lukewarm, or eventually makes a good church into a worldly church.

And I was thinking about just that.

 

When I became the pastor at my church, I was, more or less, an outsider. I had been there guest/interim-preaching for a couple months, so it wasn't a sudden thing, but its true that after more than 10 years no one had been trained up to take over, which was odd considering how old the pastor was when he started. As I have been there, any time that someone is there for a while that seems very interested in the work, in knowing more, I will take extra time to meet with them and train them, as they will accept-sadly, I have lost all of them, my last two young men I lost to their moving to find jobs outside the area, before that, a young man who got excited, but lost his discernment and began jumping here and there, now going to one of the most charismatic churches in the area. And THAT began with, believe it or not, an illness that caused him to somehwta lose his sanity for a while, get depressed, and confused-his family began bouncing around for a while, and when his health was regained and he was to his senses, he decided to just continue with the decisions he made while ill. A bit strange.

 

But the point is, yes, my desire is to have someone who can step in should I leave for one reason or another-and my prayers have been aimed that way. I'm kind of watching for someone younger, who is willing to take to training to do things the right way, and not fall into the contemporary thinking. Not been easy, but still working at it.

And yes, its also important that we teach them not to change thinhgs for the sake of change or power. I think a good thing is, if a pastor is leaving for some reason, other than death, they should stay for a while and give a bit of guidance in private, but also show good support for the new pastor so there will be no doubt in anyone's mind of who IS the pastor, but the old pastor should also leave as soon as necessary so as not to cause a division in loyalties. That happened in my church and we finally had to pray for the Lord to remove the old pastor, as there was definitely strife and a lack of accord. When tye left, things got calm and began to move forward.

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Does he say that? Yi! That's what the evangelicals say.  :wacko:

 

Edited to add: Not that I think he's evangelical. Just shows a lack of discernment.

Actually, it would depend upon just what he means by that statement. Considering other statements he's made, it doesn't seem to be a declaration of "anything goes so long as their heart is right".

 

From other things he's said and wrote it would seem he means that while some churches might have an orchestra, which another church may think isn't right and they only have a piano, when each plays Amazing Grace the congregation is worshiping Christ.

 

It doesn't seem, unless he says otherwise, that he's saying if a church wants to rock 'n roll Amazing Grace that's fine if they are really worshiping God in their hearts. From other statements he's made it would seem he would stand against such.

 

He also made mention somewhere of "slight variations", which would seem to indicate anything of a more "extreme" variation would be something outside of that.

 

Someone should have raised these points with him before he published the book; or he should have took time to consider them himself. His wording isn't clear enough and should have been reworked so his position would be more specific and clear.

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Sadly many pastors that have been placed over a flock by God neglect their flock & attempt to pastor the whole world, & when they start trying to pastor the world that's when they get liberal, throwing out God's way for they know the world will not accept God's truths.

 

Ac 20:28 Take heed therefore unto yourselves, and to all the flock, over the which the Holy Ghost hath made you overseers, to feed the church of God, which he hath purchased with his own blood.

 

​You can feed both your church that God has placed you over properly if your trying to feed the world too. 

 

And yes, God does place certain pastors over certain flocks that is if the flock will follow the leading of the Holy Ghost.

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And I was thinking about just that.

 

When I became the pastor at my church, I was, more or less, an outsider. I had been there guest/interim-preaching for a couple months, so it wasn't a sudden thing, but its true that after more than 10 years no one had been trained up to take over, which was odd considering how old the pastor was when he started. As I have been there, any time that someone is there for a while that seems very interested in the work, in knowing more, I will take extra time to meet with them and train them, as they will accept-sadly, I have lost all of them, my last two young men I lost to their moving to find jobs outside the area, before that, a young man who got excited, but lost his discernment and began jumping here and there, now going to one of the most charismatic churches in the area. And THAT began with, believe it or not, an illness that caused him to somehwta lose his sanity for a while, get depressed, and confused-his family began bouncing around for a while, and when his health was regained and he was to his senses, he decided to just continue with the decisions he made while ill. A bit strange.

 

But the point is, yes, my desire is to have someone who can step in should I leave for one reason or another-and my prayers have been aimed that way. I'm kind of watching for someone younger, who is willing to take to training to do things the right way, and not fall into the contemporary thinking. Not been easy, but still working at it.

And yes, its also important that we teach them not to change thinhgs for the sake of change or power. I think a good thing is, if a pastor is leaving for some reason, other than death, they should stay for a while and give a bit of guidance in private, but also show good support for the new pastor so there will be no doubt in anyone's mind of who IS the pastor, but the old pastor should also leave as soon as necessary so as not to cause a division in loyalties. That happened in my church and we finally had to pray for the Lord to remove the old pastor, as there was definitely strife and a lack of accord. When tye left, things got calm and began to move forward.

 

My suggestion, just do the job God's has called you to do, & let Him take care of the future. He is much better at it than you or I. After all it is Him who calls preaches & places them over flocks.

 

Ac 20:28 Take heed therefore unto yourselves, and to all the flock, over the which the Holy Ghost hath made you overseers, to feed the church of God, which he hath purchased with his own blood.

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And I was thinking about just that.

 

When I became the pastor at my church, I was, more or less, an outsider. I had been there guest/interim-preaching for a couple months, so it wasn't a sudden thing, but its true that after more than 10 years no one had been trained up to take over, which was odd considering how old the pastor was when he started. As I have been there, any time that someone is there for a while that seems very interested in the work, in knowing more, I will take extra time to meet with them and train them, as they will accept-sadly, I have lost all of them, my last two young men I lost to their moving to find jobs outside the area, before that, a young man who got excited, but lost his discernment and began jumping here and there, now going to one of the most charismatic churches in the area. And THAT began with, believe it or not, an illness that caused him to somehwta lose his sanity for a while, get depressed, and confused-his family began bouncing around for a while, and when his health was regained and he was to his senses, he decided to just continue with the decisions he made while ill. A bit strange.

 

But the point is, yes, my desire is to have someone who can step in should I leave for one reason or another-and my prayers have been aimed that way. I'm kind of watching for someone younger, who is willing to take to training to do things the right way, and not fall into the contemporary thinking. Not been easy, but still working at it.

And yes, its also important that we teach them not to change thinhgs for the sake of change or power. I think a good thing is, if a pastor is leaving for some reason, other than death, they should stay for a while and give a bit of guidance in private, but also show good support for the new pastor so there will be no doubt in anyone's mind of who IS the pastor, but the old pastor should also leave as soon as necessary so as not to cause a division in loyalties. That happened in my church and we finally had to pray for the Lord to remove the old pastor, as there was definitely strife and a lack of accord. When tye left, things got calm and began to move forward.

It's amazing how radically different churches can become, with most of the congregation going along, when a new pastor comes in.

 

Our church had been considering the need get an associate pastor, and not just any man for the job, but one with long term prospects of mentoring under our pastor with the hopes of them being able to step in years later so our church can maintain consistency.

 

The search for a prospective associate pastor dragged on for years with no worthy candidates. Then our pastors son, who was pre-med in college, received the call of the Lord to become a pastor. After much discussion our pastor, his son, our church board and the congregation took the idea of the pastor's son joining our staff. The Lord worked things out so clearly that he was brought on board as pastor of educational outreach. He held this position until he completed his theology masters and was ordained and then became our associate pastor.

 

To his credit, our pastor required his son to meet the same requirements anyone else would have to meet in order to become our associate pastor. We are thankful that, Lord willing, we now have an associate pastor directly being mentored by our senior pastor, who will be ready and able to step into the senior pastor position, hopefully many years from now, with consistency of message and working.

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Mr. Cloud once again appears to singling out a popular fruit-bearing Baptist preacher to make accusation. We’ve established in previous dialogue that Mr. Cloud is a public critic of fruit-bearing ministries and an accuser of brethren.

 

Public Challenge:

 

Set me straight. Please show me a link to music (or anything) produced by Brother Chappell’s ministry that is sinful. Give me your best evidence. I personally have been on both sides of the fence regarding music. I’m confident that you won’t meet anyone that HATES ungodly music more than I do.

 

I have many personal friends that are spirit-filled men and women that have attended the recent leadership conference. I heard several comments from them praising the excellent music program there. So until someone provides me with a video or audio of sinful music, I’m siding with my friend’s discernment on this issue who attended the conference first hand.

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My suggestion, just do the job God's has called you to do, & let Him take care of the future. He is much better at it than you or I. After all it is Him who calls preaches & places them over flocks.

 

Ac 20:28 Take heed therefore unto yourselves, and to all the flock, over the which the Holy Ghost hath made you overseers, to feed the church of God, which he hath purchased with his own blood.

Except part of the job God has called me to do is to train up others who will come behind.

 

"And the things that thou hast heard of me among many witnesses, the same commit thou to faithful men, who shall be able to teach others also." (2Tim 2:2) 

 

Timothy, in fact, is a good example: Paul saw in him the wisdom and ability to be a good teacher, so he took him under his wing and trained him up. Should not we be doing the same as pastors?  Part of our legacy should be people well-trained in the truth of God, ready, if necessary to take up the mantle of leadership to see the church will continue on its course, and not end up on the rocks, but on the Rock.

 

Its not, obviously that we believe God can't do it, but we are supposed to train them up, not carry on as if we'll always be here, and then just expect God to bring in the proper person-thats part of what we should expect to do.

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Mr. Cloud once again appears to singling out a popular fruit-bearing Baptist preacher to make accusation. We’ve established in previous dialogue that Mr. Cloud is a public critic of fruit-bearing ministries and an accuser of brethren.

 

Public Challenge:

 

Set me straight. Please show me a link to music (or anything) produced by Brother Chappell’s ministry that is sinful. Give me your best evidence. I personally have been on both sides of the fence regarding music. I’m confident that you won’t meet anyone that HATES ungodly music more than I do.

 

I have many personal friends that are spirit-filled men and women that have attended the recent leadership conference. I heard several comments from them praising the excellent music program there. So until someone provides me with a video or audio of sinful music, I’m siding with my friend’s discernment on this issue who attended the conference first hand.

You Do understand that he's not saying the usic is sinful, but that it is the building of a bridge to contemporary music by USING contemporary music which has been modified. The music itself is good, but they've taken CCM and made it sound better. The concern, based on history, is that it wil begin a downward slide into full-blown CCM as people enjoy the music and begin investigating into the other music produced by the same people, and getting into the straight CCM

 

I've kept up on all the writings Cloud has done on Lancaster. He has been very consistent on what he has said. And if you read this, he sopke highly of all the excellent things Chappel wrote and of all the good he has done. Obviously a guy who has been a long-time missionary in somewhere like Nepal is not against fruit-bearing ministries-but even large, fruit-bearing ministries need to beware what they do, because even they can fall. Tennessee Temple is a good example-once a great fruit-bearing ministry, now a full-blown CCM rock and roll church. And there are many other examples of the same.

 

And of course, the concern is also because its not just his chrch being affected once Pastor Chappel wrintes a book and spreads the same philosophies, especially the idea of disregarding any critics-I take heed to critics and investigate into what they criticize because I know I'm human, and I know any God-faring, truth-preaching, fruit-bearing church is a target of Satan, and things can slip by. I may find myself vindicated each time, but I still take heed. when we believe ourselves above criticism, a fall is inevitable.

 

I love Brother Chappel, his father Larry Chappel was my first IFB pastor in Long Beach, so I feel there's a connection in some manner. But why should a church search the sewers of CCM to modify for church use, when nthere is so much good, godly music available already? 

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You Do understand that he's not saying the usic is sinful, but that it is the building of a bridge to contemporary music by USING contemporary music which has been modified. The music itself is good, but they've taken CCM and made it sound better. The concern, based on history, is that it wil begin a downward slide into full-blown CCM as people enjoy the music and begin investigating into the other music produced by the same people, and getting into the straight CCM

 

I've kept up on all the writings Cloud has done on Lancaster. He has been very consistent on what he has said. And if you read this, he sopke highly of all the excellent things Chappel wrote and of all the good he has done. Obviously a guy who has been a long-time missionary in somewhere like Nepal is not against fruit-bearing ministries-but even large, fruit-bearing ministries need to beware what they do, because even they can fall. Tennessee Temple is a good example-once a great fruit-bearing ministry, now a full-blown CCM rock and roll church. And there are many other examples of the same.

 

And of course, the concern is also because its not just his chrch being affected once Pastor Chappel wrintes a book and spreads the same philosophies, especially the idea of disregarding any critics-I take heed to critics and investigate into what they criticize because I know I'm human, and I know any God-faring, truth-preaching, fruit-bearing church is a target of Satan, and things can slip by. I may find myself vindicated each time, but I still take heed. when we believe ourselves above criticism, a fall is inevitable.

 

I love Brother Chappel, his father Larry Chappel was my first IFB pastor in Long Beach, so I feel there's a connection in some manner. But why should a church search the sewers of CCM to modify for church use, when nthere is so much good, godly music available already? 

 

I’m having a hard time finding an honorable motive from Cloud to keep Brother Chappell’s music ministry pure. If there is nothing sinful about any of the music this ministry has produced, then perhaps he’s straining at a gnat. As someone has recently pointed out, it appears that he likes to criticize popular names so his articles get more traction.

 

I understand your point regarding CCM. I would not do this. If this is indeed being done, please provide the absolute worst example of someone from Brother Chappell’s ministry doing this. I’m interested very much in this point being validated with evidence as I’d like to refine my stance on this topic.

 

I really enjoy the Marshall Family’s music. Years later and to my disappointment I found that some of their songs were “cleaned up” southern gospel and mild CCM. Overall, this did not change my appreciation of this family.

 

I stand by my observation that Cloud cannot find anything sinful about Brother Chappell's music program is grasping at straws. Mr. Cloud has also strengthened his reputation as a ministry critic.
 

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Except part of the job God has called me to do is to train up others who will come behind.

 

"And the things that thou hast heard of me among many witnesses, the same commit thou to faithful men, who shall be able to teach others also." (2Tim 2:2) 

 

Timothy, in fact, is a good example: Paul saw in him the wisdom and ability to be a good teacher, so he took him under his wing and trained him up. Should not we be doing the same as pastors?  Part of our legacy should be people well-trained in the truth of God, ready, if necessary to take up the mantle of leadership to see the church will continue on its course, and not end up on the rocks, but on the Rock.

 

Its not, obviously that we believe God can't do it, but we are supposed to train them up, not carry on as if we'll always be here, and then just expect God to bring in the proper person-thats part of what we should expect to do.

 

God can do it, He has been doing in for many years now & He will keep on doing so though this church age.

 

The next pastor for the church your at may come from far away, yet wherever he comes from God will provide.

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"In these excerpts from The Road Ahead, Pastor Chappell says he is concerned about spiritual music and says that there is such a thing as “ungodly” music, but in practice the thing that he emphasizes the most is that there is a wide variety of acceptable music styles and that the most important thing is the heart and sincerity of the worshippers. Further, he says that in his thinking the greatest error is to condemn others for their music styles."
 
There is the full quote from David Cloud's page, I thought maybe some of you would catch it as you read the the article after I posted a part of it. 

 

If your wrong sincerity helps not the least bit. When your wrong, your wrong, whether its music or Bible doctrine.
 
I feel that all of those churches that meets on Sunday mornings across this nation that teaches their members they're saved by works are very sincere. Yet there's only one way to be saved, & no matter how sincere a person may be works will not save them.
 
And no matter how sincere a church full of people are if they're using bad music they are 100% wrong.

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Except part of the job God has called me to do is to train up others who will come behind.

 

"And the things that thou hast heard of me among many witnesses, the same commit thou to faithful men, who shall be able to teach others also." (2Tim 2:2) 

 

Timothy, in fact, is a good example: Paul saw in him the wisdom and ability to be a good teacher, so he took him under his wing and trained him up. Should not we be doing the same as pastors?  Part of our legacy should be people well-trained in the truth of God, ready, if necessary to take up the mantle of leadership to see the church will continue on its course, and not end up on the rocks, but on the Rock.

 

Its not, obviously that we believe God can't do it, but we are supposed to train them up, not carry on as if we'll always be here, and then just expect God to bring in the proper person-thats part of what we should expect to do.

Oh, train them myself? I can't do that! Along with all the other excuses to abdicate our responsibilities. What you're advocating is fine for a missionary to do in another country but we deserve better (they're apparently second rate Christians). It's better for me to let someone else train them instead (like leaving your child's training in the hands of the daycare worker and school teacher).

 

:hide:

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I’m having a hard time finding an honorable motive from Cloud to keep Brother Chappell’s music ministry pure. If there is nothing sinful about any of the music this ministry has produced, then perhaps he’s straining at a gnat. As someone has recently pointed out, it appears that he likes to criticize popular names so his articles get more traction.

I understand your point regarding CCM. I would not do this. If this is indeed being done, please provide the absolute worst example of someone from Brother Chappell’s ministry doing this. I’m interested very much in this point being validated with evidence as I’d like to refine my stance on this topic.

I really enjoy the Marshall Family’s music. Years later and to my disappointment I found that some of their songs were “cleaned up” southern gospel and mild CCM. Overall, this did not change my appreciation of this family.

I stand by my observation that Cloud cannot find anything sinful about Brother Chappell's music program is grasping at straws. Mr. Cloud has also strengthened his reputation as a ministry critic.

There are some samples of the CCM being adapted by Lancaster in this article. www.wayoflife.org/adaptingCCM/

This one has a list of other songs you can research on your own: http://www.wayoflife.org/index_files/lancaster_baptist_church_and_contemporary_worship.html

I also did some independent searches on YouTube, and came up with this. http://m.youtube.com/watch?feature=plpp&v=NEKW_qe4KWg
This one makes me sad. I know this song - used to sing and play it. It is a very popular, well known CCM piece in evangelical circles. The musicians at West Coast are not even changing the rhythms - they're the real deal. And think about it - this is being presented as an instrumental. One only chooses well-known songs as instrumentals, otherwise the audience doesn't appreciate it properly, as they don't know the words/feeling behind the song. The fact that this particular song (Shout to The Lord), to be presented as an instrumental tells me that the musicians are expecting people in the audience to know it. :(

http://m.youtube.com/watch?v=TVpcPvus_CI
This one I don't know from before, but the chord progressions and 'feel' of the accompaniment and harmony are very familiar. They remind me clearly of the contemporary songs sung at the Pentecostal camp I used to visit. This is a Casting Crowns piece. One of my friends used to love them - Total CCM rock group!
http://m.youtube.com/watch?v=IbVa-zb75EA

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I feel that Mr. Cloud would also critique Jesus if He were hear in the flesh.  Cloud has been rather silent here it seems, so he needed something to rant on again.  It seems he likes to criticize those with much influence (as He himself has said).  It sounds as if he is trying to be "king of the hill".  I am amazed at the number of followers he has, who waste their time discussing those he attacks instead of looking at his motive, or his own ministry.  if one should dig deep enough, I am sure they would find some inconsistencies in his ministry also.  ok, now is the time to "we are all sinners; no one is perfect" in defense of Mr. Cloud.

 

By the way, Mr. Clouds statement was also taught by Dr. Hyles, but no one wanted to believe him.  He said something to the effect that those that are sincere can be sincerely wrong; I wonder if Cloud knows he is using the same terms that Dr. Hyles did?  And all in that mask of influence.  Ha!

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Does anyone else here find it ironic that so many are harshly criticizing Dr. Cloud because he criticized...?  Probably not, because Dr. Cloud tends to point out areas where so many of our, ahem, heroes have Achille's heels.  And, yes, he himself has problems.  He is human, after all. No defense of him, just truth.  So, dig into his ministry and point out his wrongs.   

 

And, irishman, I just wanted to note that Dr. Hyles did not originate the idea that one can be sincere yet sincerely wrong...so using that idea does not necessarily mean one is quoting him.  Just sayin'.  :wink

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Mr. Cloud once again appears to singling out a popular fruit-bearing Baptist preacher to make accusation.

 

 

What if the fruit is rotten? 

 

How can good fruit come from a tainted ministry that produces liberal graduates, adapted CCM music in public and full on rock in private and the preacher himself reads and recommends books by heretics?  He spends so much time writing to us with both hands I believe he's forgotten how much he needs to keep reading and learning for himself.

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What if the fruit is rotten? 

 

How can good fruit come from a tainted ministry that produces liberal graduates, adapted CCM music in public and full on rock in private and the preacher himself reads and recommends books by heretics?  He spends so much time writing to us with both hands I believe he's forgotten how much he needs to keep reading and learning for himself.

To be fair, all ministries are "tainted" to one degree or another, yet they can produce good fruit. Cloud himself pointed out there are many good things to say about Chappell and his ministry.

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http://m.youtube.com/watch?v=TVpcPvus_CI
This one I don't know from before, but the chord progressions and 'feel' of the accompaniment and harmony are very familiar. They remind me clearly of the contemporary songs sung at the Pentecostal camp I used to visit. This is a Casting Crowns piece. One of my friends used to love them - Total CCM rock group!

 

That's what I was looking for. I’m discouraged to learn this accusation has merit.

 

Since I won’t go to Cloud’s site, I watched part of the youtube video for the song “Always Enough.” At first, I thought the song may have been written by someone else and then popularized by a CCM group. Not in this case. The song was written and performed originally by this CCM group. I’ve never heard a song by Casting Crowns before today so I listened to the original version. The song started out somewhat innocent but I skipped to the end and it was a full-blown carnal jam.

 

I completely agree that separated believers should not be searching the “sewers” (as UkeMike put it) for spirit-filled music. There is plenty of time-tested music to use.

 

Here is an additional angle to consider regarding this topic.

 

I personally know a fine lady who is a church pianist. Her music standards are far above reproach. She brought to my attention in the past that she had unknowingly played several songs chosen by other musicians of questionable origin taken from a “Christian” online database. She is more cautious now. By looking at a music score alone, it can be impossible to determine if a song like “Always Enough” was penned by one of Satan’s servants.

 

Consider the possibility that Brother Chappell is unaware similar to how my pianist friend was naive to this subtle incursion. It does bother me that a ministry training Baptist preachers would allow this type of material into the fold. I’m raising my boys in an environment where surrendering to full-time Christian service is an option that would make their dad proud. Bible College may be part of their future so this subject will be observed with interest.

 

Final thoughts:

 

1. Is the “cleaned up” music sinful? I cannot answer that. Regarding complex matters that I cannot definitively answer, I take the safe route. I could not perform this song in good conscience as a musician while being aware of its origin.

 

2. The Lancaster ministry is being used of God. I sincerely hope that in the thousands of songs performed by this church over the years, that the few songs in question are but anomalies in the big picture.

 

3. I’m glad that Cloud doesn’t follow me around 24/7 with a notepad.

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Here's what I get out of Cloud's ministry and writings:

 

  as a pastor, error is always creeping at the doors. Its no surprise to anyone that Satan has a hankerin' to get in a do damage to ministries. I don't see what Cloud does as 'criticizing', but 'warning', warning not onlt that particular ministry of problems creeping in, but also warning ME and the church I am priviledged to pastor, of the danger of those same errors and darts that may be coming my way. It helps remind me always of the potential that is present in ANY ministry, especially mine, and keeps me alert, sober and vigilant for my enemy, the devil.  I'm just a guy who, for reasons still unknown to me, the Lord placed into the most important place in Herlong: behind the pupit of a tiny, insignificant IFB church in the desert-an oasis, if you will, a place for others to come apart to rest in a desert place. And I know, from experience, how liable I am to fall into the wrong way-but with another voice out there always reminding me of MY vulnerabilities, I can be more careful at my labors.

 

I agree-I pray that the few CM songs at Lancaster are the exception, not the rule-yet my concern is their considering themselves to be above any reproach or criticism, and that attitude will surely bring about a fall. Especially since originally when the issue was brought up, it was claimed the music director brought the music in while Dr. Chapell was ill, and it was fixed when he was back, yet it has not only not been fixed, but it has continued, and been defended, so its not an issue that is unknown. There is an intention to continue to use it.

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That's what I was looking for. I’m discouraged to learn this accusation has merit.

 

Since I won’t go to Cloud’s site, I watched part of the youtube video for the song “Always Enough.” At first, I thought the song may have been written by someone else and then popularized by a CCM group. Not in this case. The song was written and performed originally by this CCM group. I’ve never heard a song by Casting Crowns before today so I listened to the original version. The song started out somewhat innocent but I skipped to the end and it was a full-blown carnal jam.

 

I completely agree that separated believers should not be searching the “sewers” (as UkeMike put it) for spirit-filled music. There is plenty of time-tested music to use.

 

Here is an additional angle to consider regarding this topic.

 

I personally know a fine lady who is a church pianist. Her music standards are far above reproach. She brought to my attention in the past that she had unknowingly played several songs chosen by other musicians of questionable origin taken from a “Christian” online database. She is more cautious now. By looking at a music score alone, it can be impossible to determine if a song like “Always Enough” was penned by one of Satan’s servants.

 

Consider the possibility that Brother Chappell is unaware similar to how my pianist friend was naive to this subtle incursion. It does bother me that a ministry training Baptist preachers would allow this type of material into the fold. I’m raising my boys in an environment where surrendering to full-time Christian service is an option that would make their dad proud. Bible College may be part of their future so this subject will be observed with interest.

 

Final thoughts:

 

1. Is the “cleaned up” music sinful? I cannot answer that. Regarding complex matters that I cannot definitively answer, I take the safe route. I could not perform this song in good conscience as a musician while being aware of its origin.

 

2. The Lancaster ministry is being used of God. I sincerely hope that in the thousands of songs performed by this church over the years, that the few songs in question are but anomalies in the big picture.

 

3. I’m glad that Cloud doesn’t follow me around 24/7 with a notepad.

 

Since you don't want to go to that site, here's a list that was posted of other CCM songs that have been used for you to do your own research on.  I found the two on Youtube myself after seeing their inclusion on this list. It's too bad you can't check out that first article, since there are several very well done clips of the music being sung at the college juxtaposed with the songs being sung by their original composers. Gets the point of what kind of music it really is across very well.

 

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

 

Hallelujah to the Lamb” by Don Moen (who thinks God is the author of the weird charismatic “laughing revival”)

“In Christ Alone” by Getty/Townend

“Word of God Speak” by MercyMe (a charismatic mystical song)

“Stronger” and “Shout to the Lord” by Zschech/Hillsong was performed by Lancaster’s high school mixed ensemble (Zschech is a female pastor, a radical ecumenist; Hillsong performed for Catholic Youth Day and Pope Benedict)

“Majesty, Worship His Majesty” by Jack Hayford (a Pentecostal “kingdom now” heresy anthem; Hayford says God told him not to preach against the Roman Catholic church)

“Great Is the Lord” and “How Majestic Is Your Name” by Michael W. Smith (who has been “slain in the Spirit” and “laughed uncontrollably, “rolling on the floor ... hyperventilating”)

“Faithful Men” by Twila Paris (who works with the Roman Catholic Kathy Troccoli and with ecumenist Robert Webber, who promotes unity between evangelicals and Catholics)

“In Christ Alone” by Michael English (who spent the 1990s and early 2000s committing adultery with another man’s wife, bar hopping, dating a stripper, and undergoing “rehab” for drug addiction)

Songs by Steven Curtis Chapman (the most honored “high energy Christian rocker” of the 1990s who says he doesn’t preach “fire and brimstone” and describes God as “Lord of the Dance”)

Songs by Geron Davis (“Jesus Only” Pentecostal who denies the Trinity)

“I Will Rise” by Chris Tomlin (a member of an emerging church that seeks to build the kingdom in this present world)

Songs by Graham Kendrick (charismatic founder of the radically ecumenical Jesus March that includes Catholics and Mormons)

“Amazing Grace (My Chains Are Gone)” by Chris Tomlin was performed at Lancaster Sunday morning, Oct. 9, 2011

“Not Guilty” by the jazz CCM artist Mandisa was performed at the 2011 Leadership Conference
“Above All Things” by Rebecca St. James (covered on West Coast Baptist College’s “For the Faith of the Gospel” CD)

“Always Enough” by Casting Crowns (February 2012)

“Glorify You Alone” by Gateway Worship (March 2012)

“Step by Step” by Rich Mullins (Youth Conference 2012) 

“How Can I Keep from Singing” by Chris Tomlin (August 2012)

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