Members Pastor Scott Markle Posted July 6, 2013 Author Members Share Posted July 6, 2013 Pastor Scott, I appreciate the talk we have had. Brother MItchell, I also have appreciated that discussion in which the two of us have engaged. I believe that it has been both gracious and Biblically thoughtful. I have already given on 2 occasions the reasoning behind the conclusion that the sons of God in Genesis 6 are angelic beings. There are and can only be 5 classes of sons of God in the Bible. There are not 7 as you posited and there are not 4 by way of elimination of the careful cross references to Genesis 6 through Job and Revelation 1. Most of the discussion in which we have engaged has concerned the application of Matthew 22:30 & Mark 12:25 in relation to the account of Genesis 6:2 & 4. Our only engagement thus far in direct relation to Genesis 6:2 & 4 has been my response of seven applications to the Biblical idea of a son or sons of God in relation to your presentation of five applications thereto, and then your response to my response. In my presentation of seven applications, I have indeed acknowledged the application to angelic beings in the immediate contexts of Job 1:6; 2:1; & 38:7. In fact, among my postings throughout this thread discussion, I have even argued in accord with the context for this application in Job 1:6 & 2:1. However, I am not prepared to concede your combination of three of my listed applications into one; and thus I am not prepared to concede your listing of only five applications. There is Adam Israel Jesus Christ New Testament Born Again Believers. Letting that stand as it is, makes us to ponder then, who are the sons of God in Genesis? Who are they in Job 1 and 38? I ask anyone following this thread. You may not like to say they are angels, but are they Adam? Yes or no. Are they Israel? Yes or no? Are they Jesus Christ? Yes or no. Are they New Testament Born Again Believers? Yes or no. After facing those questions s If I agreed with your listing of only five Biblical applications for the Biblical idea of a son or sons of God, then I would be compelled to acknowledge that the only reasonable application for the phrase "sons of God" in Genesis 6:2 & 4 would be to angelic beings. However, I believe that there are indeed two categories of application in the context of the Old Testament for the Biblical idea of a son or sons of God that encompasses human individuals as human individuals. As such, my present viewpoint grants the possibility for the phrase "sons of God" in Genesis 6:2 & 4 to apply either to angelic beings or to human individuals. In relation to our discussion together, this difference concerning the list of Biblical applications for the Biblical idea of a son or sons of God would require us to engage more directly in that particualr matter. However, at this very moment I am required to fulfill another responsibility. Furthermore, as Sunday approaches and as we enter into next week, my time for this discussion will become more limited. I am not bowing out altogether, but I would request patience. Thank you again, for a gracious and Biblically thoughtful discussion thus far. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Calvary Posted July 6, 2013 Members Share Posted July 6, 2013 Where does the Bible specifically identify angels as being sons of God? To date, no one has addressed this question. I have posted 2 to this issue. You have failed to respond., and again to Pastor Scott. Just saying, "See, it says sons of God... It is speaking of angels." Does not prove they are angels anymore than saying, "See it says light,... It is speaking of General Electric." Proves light bulbs were in the Bible. Where does the Bible specifically say God is a Trinity? Where does the Bible specifically say that Jesus rose form the dead on Friday, or Sunday, or any other day. It comes from deductive Bible study. If you conclude that the sons of God in Genesis 6 are men, then show then to be so. They can only be Adam, Jesus or Israel or born again New Testament believers. The onus in upon you to show then to be such. The Bible defines son of God as sinless upon it´s creation. 2 times i have given the proper Biblical designations for sons of God and only Pastor Scott has responded. You, heartstrings have been silent on those posts. It´s obvious that you nor heartstrings can answer. If you could, you would have. To say, Where does the Bible say that? Is not an answer. I have given you 5 distinct definitions for the sons of God. Pastor Scott has posited 7. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Standing Firm In Christ Posted July 6, 2013 Members Share Posted July 6, 2013 Hebrews 1:5-7 For unto which of the angels said he at any time, Thou art my Son, this day have I begotten thee? And again, I will be to him a Father, and he shall be to me a Son? And again, when he bringeth in the firstbegotten into the world, he saith, And let all the angels of God worship him. And of the angels he saith, Who maketh his angels spirits, and his ministers a flame of fire. God doesn't identify His angels as sons. He said "Let all the angels of God worship Him". He did not say, "Let all the sons of God worship Him", nor did He say, "Let all His brethren worship Him." Angels were not identified as sons by God Almighty. I cannot identify them as sons either. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Calvary Posted July 7, 2013 Members Share Posted July 7, 2013 Hebrews 1:5-7 For unto which of the angels said he at any time, Thou art my Son, this day have I begotten thee? And again, I will be to him a Father, and he shall be to me a Son? And again, when he bringeth in the firstbegotten into the world, he saith, And let all the angels of God worship him. And of the angels he saith, Who maketh his angels spirits, and his ministers a flame of fire. God doesn't identify His angels as sons. He said "Let all the angels of God worship Him". He did not say, "Let all the sons of God worship Him", nor did He say, "Let all His brethren worship Him." Angels were not identified as sons by God Almighty. I cannot identify them as sons either. Hebrews 1 has nothing whatsoever to do with identifying angels or their aliases. If that is what you guys call serious Bible study, I´ll just go back over to the nursery. Of course God did not call any angel His Son, but what does that have to do with Genesis 6? But he did call them watchers, angels, ministering spirits, holy ones, sons, stars... and some are called demons, principalities, powers, unclean spirits.... Did you know the word cat is not in the Bible? Guess they really don´t exist since the Bible doesn´t say it specifically in a verse. Again you have failed to respond to the 5 distinct classes of sons of God. (Yawn) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Standing Firm In Christ Posted July 7, 2013 Members Share Posted July 7, 2013 Maybe we will visit you at the nursery then. You continue to claim that God called the angels sons, yet thus far you have failed to provide one verse that says the sons of God were angels. Not one verse says angels were sons of God or sons of God were angels. Your doctrine is built solely on supposition, which is about as reliable as a house built on quicksand. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members heartstrings Posted July 7, 2013 Members Share Posted July 7, 2013 Calvary Brother, I have already dealt with all 5 of your classifications in this thread, though maybe not in a direct answer to you. They are there if you have time to search for them. But I will address them again now. #1 Adam "which was the son of God" (Luke 3:38) #2 "the sons of God" (Genesis 6:4) #3 Israel "Israel is my son" (Exodus 4:22) #4 Jesus "the Son" "my beloved Son" "the only begotten Son" "the Son of God" #5 Believers "the sons of God", John 1, Romans 8, Galatians 4, 1 John 3 In each and every one of the above five (5) we know for certain that they were "sons of God" because the Bible actually CALLS them "my son" "sons of God" "son of God" etc. But angels?........ Just the words "angels" and "sons" in the same sentence would be a good start. . Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Calvary Posted July 7, 2013 Members Share Posted July 7, 2013 Calvary Brother, I have already dealt with all 5 of your classifications in this thread, though maybe not in a direct answer to you. They are there if you have time to search for them. But I will address them again now. #1 Adam "which was the son of God" (Luke 3:38) #2 "the sons of God" (Genesis 6:4) Exactly how did these sons of God become sons of God? Sons of God is a title that references a creature that is sinless at the time of it´s creation. #3 Israel "Israel is my son" (Exodus 4:22) Although Israel will indeed owner be of the title, Exodus 4 is not the verse to support that fact. Isaiah 43 and Hosea 1 is when the nation will be born in a day, that is when they will gain that title being the sons of God. #4 Jesus "the Son" "my beloved Son" "the only begotten Son" "the Son of God" #5 Believers "the sons of God", John 1, Romans 8, Galatians 4, 1 John 3 In each and every one of the above five (5) we know for certain that they were "sons of God" because the Bible actually CALLS them "my son" "sons of God" "son of God" etc. But angels?........ Just the words "angels" and "sons" in the same sentence would be a good start. . Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Standing Firm In Christ Posted July 7, 2013 Members Share Posted July 7, 2013 #2 "the sons of God" (Genesis 6:4)Exactly how did these sons of God become sons of God? Sons of God is a title that references a creature that is sinless at the time of it´s creation. Then began men to call upon the name of thevLORD. - Genesis 4 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Standing Firm In Christ Posted July 7, 2013 Members Share Posted July 7, 2013 Saying sons of God is referencing angels without giving Scriptural proof is like saying horses in the Bible were really ants. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members LindaR Posted July 7, 2013 Members Share Posted July 7, 2013 Then began men to call upon the name of thevLORD. - Genesis 4 Genesis 4:26 And to Seth, to him also there was born a son; and he called his name Enos: then began men to call upon the name of the LORD. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members heartstrings Posted July 7, 2013 Members Share Posted July 7, 2013 #2 A "son" is being who is "begotten" by a father, has inherited characteristics of that father, and has the ability to pass on those inherited traits by "seed"., A "son of God" is begotten of God and not only is made a sinless "new creature" but a son of God CANNOT sin. 1 John 5:18 and 1 John 3;1-9 The old nature can but the new nature cannot. The sons of God, in Genesis 6 were begotten the same way. They called upon the name of the Lord, beginning in Genesis 4:26 . No OT saint was saved by the Law or anything else. "Righteous Abel", Enoch, Noah, Moses, David, Abraham, Job, Samuel, any other believer you want to name was looking ahead to the cross....just as we are looking back. #3 Yes, those "born in a day" will be looking to Jesus....There is none other name. And after that takes place, every believer AKA "son of God" who has ever been....including Abel, Adam. Seth, Enos, Methuselah, Noah, Abraham, Isaac, Jacob, Joseph, Nebuchadnezzar(I believe), Rahab, Ruth, Samson, Job, David ....Paul, Silas, Peter, James, John........all of us born of God will be there praising the Lamb with love, peace and joy in the Holy Ghost. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Calvary Posted July 8, 2013 Members Share Posted July 8, 2013 #2 A "son" is being who is "begotten" by a father, has inherited characteristics of that father, and has the ability to pass on those inherited traits by "seed"., A "son of God" is begotten of God and not only is made a sinless "new creature" but a son of God CANNOT sin. 1 John 5:18 and 1 John 3;1-9 The old nature can but the new nature cannot. The sons of God, in Genesis 6 were begotten the same way. They called upon the name of the Lord, beginning in Genesis 4:26 . No OT saint was saved by the Law or anything else. "Righteous Abel", Enoch, Noah, Moses, David, Abraham, Job, Samuel, any other believer you want to name was looking ahead to the cross....just as we are looking back. #3 Yes, those "born in a day" will be looking to Jesus....There is none other name. And after that takes place, every believer AKA "son of God" who has ever been....including Abel, Adam. Seth, Enos, Methuselah, Noah, Abraham, Isaac, Jacob, Joseph, Nebuchadnezzar(I believe), Rahab, Ruth, Samson, Job, David ....Paul, Silas, Peter, James, John........all of us born of God will be there praising the Lamb with love, peace and joy in the Holy Ghost. The only person looking forward to the cross was God the Father and Jesus. To call upon the Lord doesn´t mean salvation or the new birth. That is just plain ignorance on Bible doctrine. No one was regenerated by the Holy Spirit in the OT. No one was saved by trusting in the finished work of Jesus on Calvary. That is simple nonsense. That is wherein lies you inability to understand deductive Bible study. Can you show us one verse where an OT saint believed on the Lord Jesus for salvation? I´ll take just one. How can you reconcile your false teaching with Paul in Eph 3:5 Which in other ages was not made known unto the sons of men, as it is now revealed unto his holy apostles and prophets by the Spirit; Eph 3:6 That the Gentiles should be fellowheirs, and of the same body, and partakers of his promise in Christ by the gospel: Hmmm... Paul speaking under the inspiration of the Holy Ghost said that no one was made a member of the body, no one partook of the promise of Christ by the gospel. Not only that he called the OT people sons of men, not sons of God. There is no new birth in the OT. There are no sons of God in the OT in the John 1:12-13 sense. That is a false doctrine. Take it up with Paul not me. He said, not I. But, lest this thread become a rabbit trail on right division, I am signing off. Been fun. But I feel no need to convince anyone of a teaching I hold to yet matters not the in the least bit as far as being right with God. You are blinded to the truth that New testament doctrine of Christ in us, the body of Christ are just not OT doctrines, they could not be until Christ was raised from the dead. God bless, calvary Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Standing Firm In Christ Posted July 8, 2013 Members Share Posted July 8, 2013 You have yet to provide Scripture to prove your theory. In the eleven instances where the term sons of God are found, context nowhere says they are angels. Angels are not mentioned in any of the Old Testament chapters that the term sons of God is found in. Genesis 6; Job 1,2,& 38 Yet you continue to insist they are angels. Where is your proof? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members heartstrings Posted July 8, 2013 Members Share Posted July 8, 2013 David spoke of Christ as "my lord" Psalm 110:1 {A Psalm of David.} The LORD said unto my Lord, Sit thou at my right hand, until I make thine enemies thy footstool. ...and Christ confirmed it,,, Matthew 22:44 The LORD said unto my Lord, Sit thou on my right hand, till I make thine enemies thy footstool? .........and was confident as to where he was going to spend eternity ........and I will dwell in the house of the Lord for ever. Psalm 23:6 Who is the "redeemer" who will stand on the earth in the latter days?.... For I know that my redeemer liveth, and that he shall stand at the latter day upon the earth: Job 19:25......and how did Job have such confidence, if he wasn't saved? And though after my skin worms destroy this body, yet in my flesh shall I see God: Job 19:26 " Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Calvary Posted July 8, 2013 Members Share Posted July 8, 2013 Not only that he (Paul) called the OT people sons of men, not sons of God. There is no new birth in the OT. There are no sons of God in the OT in the John 1:12-13 sense. That is a false doctrine. Take it up with Paul not me. He said, not I. I never said OT folks weren´t saved, so build a straw man somewhere else my friend. I said they are not sons of God in the sense of John 1:12-13. John 1 says that those that received Jesus were given power to BECOME sons of God, even to them THAT BELIEVE ON HIS NAME. David called Jesus Lord? Really? That´s silly and Psalms 110 didn´t say anything that David said, David attributed the saying to God. So God called Jesus Lord, not David. You have some serious reading problems. To say Job and David were born again believers in the name of Jesus is the just plain ignorance. Having confidence and hope in God is not being born again. David was not regenerated. Job was never regenerated by the Spirit of God. No one looked forward to the cross outside of the Father and Jesus. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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