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John81

Pastor Charged With Felony For Spanking Son

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Kindofblue,

I am a rather "liberal" person in these parts, and I agree with your view of Proverbs (as written to show general rules of thumb), however, I think your hermenutic study will find otherwise. Proverbs is plain. Beat them with a rod, they will not die, beat them and save their soul from hell. Seriously, that's what it says. The hermeneutic we use for proverbs is not that its literal (in the sense that much of it is figures of speech) but that the principles are general principles, not hard and fast rules. I.e. Train up your child still means train up your child, but its a generalization that the children WILL turn out right. However, the scriptures surrounding physical discipline are very plain, and I do not know of any fair hermeneutic that would come to the conclusion that beating and rods are just figures of speech.

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You cannot train a child unless there is punishment when they do wrong.

The point in the Bible is punishment that they understand for wrong their doing. Of course you would not beat them, no one is saying to go out and beat children. But a good whipping in in order many times when children misbehave.

5 And ye have forgotten the exhortation which speaketh unto you as unto children, My son, despise not thou the chastening of the Lord, nor faint when thou art rebuked of him:
6 For whom the Lord loveth he chasteneth, and scourgeth every son whom he receiveth.
7 If ye endure chastening, God dealeth with you as with sons; for what son is he whom the father chasteneth not?
8 But if ye be without chastisement, whereof all are partakers, then are ye bastards, and not sons.
9 Furthermore we have had fathers of our flesh which corrected us, and we gave them reverence: shall we not much rather be in subjection unto the Father of spirits, and live?
10 For they verily for a few days chastened us after their own pleasure; but he for our profit, that we might be partakers of his holiness.
11 Now no chastening for the present seemeth to be joyous, but grievous: nevertheless afterward it yieldeth the peaceable fruit of righteousness unto them which are exercised thereby.
Heb 12:5-11 (KJV)

Even God punishes us when we do wrong, that is if we don't repent. This can come in many different ways and degrees, even death.

16 If any man see his brother sin a sin which is not unto death, he shall ask, and he shall give him life for them that sin not unto death. There is a sin unto death: I do not say that he shall pray for it.
1 John 5:16 (KJV)

30 For this cause many are weak and sickly among you, and many sleep.
1 Cor 11:30 (KJV)

Yes, some are called home early because they disobey God, some are sickly, and some sleep, or that is they are dead because of sins they have done.


Quite Frankly I don't care about Dr. Sears. God's Word is the only authority for the child of God. The old son is true. 'The only way to be happy in Jesus is to trust and obey," you can do this by following the advise of worldly people, only by following Jesus. There are ways that seem right unto man, but God's way is the only way that is right. After all God creates us, so he knows us better than man does.

25 There is a way that seemeth right unto a man, but the end thereof are the ways of death.
Prov 16:25 (KJV)

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So do you believe that taking a rebellious child outside in the OT was also figurative language?

Not saying we do that today obviously, we are in the age of grace....but I'm saying that you can't just explain away things you don't like in Scripture by saying its figurative.

I don't like spanking my kids, and we don't use that for everything...but it is definitely the Biblical way and so we do have to follow the Bible. I find it generally more effective than "time out".

Anyway...what does one do when a child refuses to sit in a time out? LOL....


I have never said I believe spaking is wrong. I don't think anyone here is saying it is ok to beat a child silly. I do find it odd that people are defending spanking that causes bruising. All I am saying is I do not know the facts of the case being discussed here, and to come to one's defense without knowing the extent of bruising, etc. is foolish. It may be this man did nothing wrong, but it is hard for me to believe there is no evidence of abuse when he is being charged with a felony. It leads me to believe the author of the article has an agenda.

All I am saying is that there are many forms of effective discipline. Each parent should apply whatever method works best for their children in a consistent, fair, and firm way. The biblical principal being taught is clearly that it is foolish not to discipline your child and if you do not discipline your child, you are harming your child.

I don't think spanking is the only form of discipline, it is one of many things that can be used. I've seen many forms of discipline be used effectively to teach a child. I'm not sure why I am having to defend my point here, since it seems we are all mostly in agreement.

I'm not explaining away things is Scripture I don't like. I am reading Scripture and getting to the core meaning of the text. All verses cited indicate to me that it is important to discipline a child. It does not say that spanking is the only form of discipline. Every child is different and responds differently to different forms of discipline.

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I'll repeat myself... I agree with your view of scripture. I honestly believe that we share the same view of how to interpret scripture. And I am saying that I believe any fair hermeneutic applied to those verses will lead to physical discipline being called for, not just discipline in any form.

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The effective punishment, corporal punishment, is what ought to be used from the beginning with a child. Them when the child gets older the need of corporal punishment will be very frequent.

Like one of my best friends father, he would be very mean to his younger brother when I was at their home, his father would take him out of our site and instill corporal punishment with a belt and send him back out to play, he was not a repeat offender.

Corporal punishment worked, time out would never have been effective, but besides that time out is not called for in our "Instruction Book," but corporal punishment is called for in our "Instruction Book," I might add, corporal punishment did not hurt his self esteem, but it did prevent him from being a repeate offender, or even worse things, just as it did me.

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The man is not a repeat offender. Please understand people that the first time that the parents were questioned by Social Services they were NOT suspected of abuse. It is the school systems policy that if anyone spanks with an instrument they are called into CPS. The authorities told them (the school, social worker and police worker) told the Barnetts that is was "illegal to use a instrument in the State of Wisconsin". This was a lie to the Barnetts. The child in question was adopted and was only spanked by Mr. Barnett after a year of trying to get him to quit lying. It was done as a last resort and not a first. He was only swatted 2 times and that was it. Thank you for your prayers and concern.

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The man is not a repeat offender. Please understand people that the first time that the parents were questioned by Social Services they were NOT suspected of abuse. It is the school systems policy that if anyone spanks with an instrument they are called into CPS. The authorities told them (the school' date=' social worker and police worker) told the Barnetts that is was "illegal to use a instrument in the State of Wisconsin". This was a lie to the Barnetts. The child in question was adopted and was only spanked by Mr. Barnett after a year of trying to get him to quit lying. It was done as a last resort and not a first. He was only swatted 2 times and that was it. Thank you for your prayers and concern.[/quote']
Thanks, madgranny. Hope things turn out okay. Once the government gets its teeth into this kind of bone, they hate to let go!!

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[quote="madgranny"]The man is not a repeat offender. Please understand people that the first time that the parents were questioned by Social Services they were NOT suspected of abuse. It is the school systems policy that if anyone spanks with an instrument they are called into CPS. The authorities told them (the school, social worker and police worker) told the Barnetts that is was "illegal to use a instrument in the State of Wisconsin". This was a lie to the Barnetts. The child in question was adopted and was only spanked by Mr. Barnett after a year of trying to get him to quit lying. It was done as a last resort and not a first. He was only swatted 2 times and that was it. Thank you for your prayers and concern.[/quote]

He is in a tough situation. For often adopted children, especially if they're 7 to 8 years or older have never had no training from their parents and have been exposed to much they should not have. Often their parents were dope heads, that seems not to help matter either.

Best wishes to this man and prayers that all will turn out well.

Silly law, to have a law that one cannot use an instrument, paddle or belt to whip a disobedient child. Law makers need to stay out of the parents life in most situations.

Seems to me the problem is they get to wanting to make a name for their self and go after cases that should be thrown out.

I just read in our paper where a man's trial is starting, he raped his very own 8 month old daughter. There are situation where they need to get involved, but I fear cases such as this topic here will make it hard for them to get involved in any cases that need to be checked into. For there is no doubt, there are some very evil parents in this world.

This is not the article I read but it tell a bit of the arrest.

http://www.ksla.com/Global/story.asp?S= ... v=menu50_2

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That does it my husband and I decided not to have children. If we do become with child we are not being open about what we do as parents because I don't want to be arrested.


The thing is, all that has to take place, is for the child to say the wrong words in front of the right person, them the next several months will be nothing but pure misery for a set of godly parents.

Its sad that it has come to that.

To many over zealous people in the wrong positions with no horse sense at all.

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Whether they realize it or not, most who work for various social service agencies are serving the devil.

The social worker in our case has been attempting to make us think she's our friend. :roll One of her recent attempts was her trying to pretend she's a real Christian (this after her mocking and belittling the Ten Commandments on a previous visit). She said "praise Jesus" at least three times and carried on about some Christian fiction book that she "just had to have" and how she reads all those books and now must wait for the next in the series to come out. I think she realized her attempts failed because on her next visit there was no talk of Christian books and no exclamations of "praise Jesus".

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Whether they realize it or not, most who work for various social service agencies are serving the devil.

The social worker in our case has been attempting to make us think she's our friend. :roll One of her recent attempts was her trying to pretend she's a real Christian (this after her mocking and belittling the Ten Commandments on a previous visit). She said "praise Jesus" at least three times and carried on about some Christian fiction book that she "just had to have" and how she reads all those books and now must wait for the next in the series to come out. I think she realized her attempts failed because on her next visit there was no talk of Christian books and no exclamations of "praise Jesus".


This happens alot, believe it or not. well with teachers and families. Half of the time, I say nothing, or ignore their opinions.

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I realize what she was doing, trying to win our favor, trying to appear to be "one of us", trying to get us to open up to her, etc.

I ignored her antics. She's said enough previously that I know she considers herself to be a Christian but with no apparent fruit or salvation testimony and a very liberal, worldly view of Scripture, church and pastors. She's the one who told me the Ten Commandments are not a good basis for making rules around the house because they are impossible to keep. :roll

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I am not a Baptist, but came upon this site looking for more information about this Father. I cannot find the outcome anywhere, so it must still be in progress. My heart goes out to this man. The damage the "system" has brought to this family will never go away. I felt compelled to add my experience. I am a mom of 4 children, now ages 12,13,15, and 18.
The first of this year, my daughter who had just turned 14 the November before, was becoming increasingly defiante. We lived in Colorado at the time. (fyi - google Colorado for teen suicide, drug use, depression, teen alchohol use(parents can give it to their children on private property), teen smoking (not illegal for a child to smoke), pot use (leagle in Denver, Boulder, and other areas) - it is about the worst in the nation for all of these) I am a Christain parent. We have a blended family. My husband has 3 children. Well, to continue what happend - in Dec.last year we discovered that my daughter was smoking pot. We did a drug test to confirm it. She had just been 13 a month before. I was shocked and devasted. We talked to her and told her the dangers of her behavior. She told us that was all untrue, and that pot was "good for you and enlightens your mind". The popularity of drugs in the highschool she was attending had overcome her. (if you are thinking I should have changed schools, there were not any others. We lived in the mountains) By January, she was becoming more arguementative, and especially agitated with her brother, who was 12. He was embarrased by her getting on the bus with her friends smelling like pot. They were really at each other alot. I was doing my best to reason with my daughter. I took her out to eat and shopping alone to talk to her. All this time she was dening her drug use and smoking. Now she told me that she thought she was addicted to cigarette smoking and she was using pot. My heart sank! Now it was confirmed, I couldn't have the slightest amount of denial. I kept my cool and asked her what sshe thought I should do with the information. She told me that I could express my opions, which she knew would be VERY against what she was doing. She added that then I should let her do what she wanted to, because, after all, it was her life and her body. I immeadiately answered, that that might seem really cool now, but that when she got older, she would wonder what kind of mother she had. I brought her home and told her she would not be able to go to anyones house or anywhere because that is where she had the opportunity to smoke pot and cigarettes. She would go to school and call me with an urgent need to see a teacher, do homework at the library, choir practice, etc. to stay after school. I would then go pick her up. The conflicts between her brother and her were increasing. I was honestly afraid that something terrible might happen in the heat of their anger. It was now the first of February. My husband was out of town that weekend. I had a girlfriend come up to spend the weekend with us. My daughters disrespect, attitude and agressiveness shocked her. She even confronted my daughter and told her that she shouldn't be there if she was going to treat me and her family the way she was. We all went to church that weekend. We stayed for potluck afterwards. Later, my three kids and a little friend asked if they could have the keys to listen to the radio in my car. We were leaving shortly. I gave them to them, as I had done before with no incident. A little while later, they all came running in very excited. My son and daughter were accusing each other of moving my car (they are 12 and 14). They made quite a scene. I asked the little friend and my youngest what happened. They said that my son had done it. He said he hadn't, that is was my 14 year old daughter. She completely denied it, said it was him and the younger girls backed her up. I really didn't feel the truth was out, but I knew it would come. Monday they were on the bus coming home and another fight broke out. I was at my wits end about all of this. I took my younger daughter aside and told her she better tell the truth or I was going to call her little friend's mom and that she would probably tell the truth now that she was home. She broke down and told me that it was her older sister who had inatially started the car and backed it up. Her brother had tried to put it back for her after she got out. I knew I NOW had the truth. I told her how terrible it had been that she had lied and covered her sister. I told her she would be spanked for lieing after dinner. I then confronted my 14 year old. She still accused her brother and said she had done nothing. I told her I knew better and the truth was now known. She was still not very conceeding. We all sat down to eat dinner. I brought up what had happened. I told my son that I now new the truth, but because of the severity of the situation he was going to be spanked for moving my car at all. I then turned to my older daughter and told her she was going to get the same after dinner. Her eyes about popped our of her head! I felt it was imperative to treat them all equally. I told her that I believed she had been doing alot of lying lately ( all those after school activities were found out to be more opportunities to smoke and drug). My husband was there and it helped keep it calmer. After dinner, I calmly asked my youngest to come into my bedroom. I asked her how she felt. She knew she had done badly. I asked her to bend over my bed and I spanked her 3 times. ( I used my belt because I cannot use my hands. The slightest bang bursts blood vessels in them. I also have a bad tremor.) We hugged and she cried about how bad she had felt for lieing. It was over. I then proceeded to my son. He came in and I did the same thing. He was sorry for moving my car. He actually laughed when I spanked him and said "that didn't hurt". I think he still got the point of how serious the crime was. I then went downstairs to my older daughter. I asked her to come out ot the sofa. She refused. I asked again. Same thing. This went on several time with her cursing at me. Her oldest sister, who was 17, told her just to do it and be done. She added that you know mom never hurts you and laughed. In desperation, I told her if she didn't come, that I would have her step-father come carry her out. That finally got her attention. She came out begrudingly. I then asked her to bend down at the sofa. Again, the same battle, with her yelling and cursing at me. I remained calm, just asking over and over. Then I finally made the same threat. She made an attempt to kneel down but would not bend over. I was over her fighting me. I looked at my husband across the room and asked him to help. He had never touched them. He and I knew I had to win this battle. He came over and she still wouldn't comply. He then bent her over the sofa, her screaming and cursing "you bastard" calling me a "bitch" and more. He held her for me to spank her on the butt. I didn't want to hit her anywhere else. We had remained calm. She was very angry. She went back in her sister's room. About an hour later I went to try to talk to her. Still major attitude. About an hour later she came upstairs with her school books and said she was taking them to her sister's car. She had her drug suppling boyfriend ( I had never seen) and his mother( who gives him the pot to sell!) waiting to take her away. I didn't know all this at the time. I was really worried and starting calling friends of hers. She had run off to friends before. No information. I spoke to a police officer and decided to wait to see if she came to school the next day. Her older sister called me from school and said she was there AND claiming child abuse. She was very concerned. The school SRO was with her sister. I told my oldest, that I had done nothing wrong. A while later, the SRO called me and asked what happened. I freely told him. He then told me I was perfectly in my rights. Later in the day, I was told she was going to runaway again. I called the SRO to escort her to the car where my husband and her sister were waiting. She refused. He then put her on the bus and told the driver not to let her off anywhere but her stop. He told us to meet the bus. My oldest daughter had a friend on the bus. He was texting her that my daughter had friends to meet her and take her away. I then called the police to meet us and her. ( I need to add here, that for the past week I had been going to the school officials, counselors and security trying to intervene and stop her smoking and drug use.) Everyone arrived at the bus stop at about the same time. I jumped out of the car and confronted her friends and her. I told the policeman that I was sure they had drugs. My 14 year old daughter was acting defiante and cursing so much, that the police officer told her to shut up or he would take her in on diorderly conduct! My husband, my oldest daugher and I sat there for over 2 hours watching them search the car and the kids. They found pot and in Colorado, all they do is give them a ticket. The friends then drove off as they shot us the "bird". My daughter had been sitting in the police car. We were expecting my daugher to then come with us. Then the cop came over and said they were calling in a female police officer because my daughter had again accused us of child abuse. I couldn't believe it!!! I had called them! We all went to our home where I was treated like the criminal!!! It was surreal. We told them all what had happened and they then gave my husband and I criminal charge papers. All my other children were present. My youngest was crying and beside herself. My husband told them how they had just undermined us completely as parents with any authority in front them. It didn't seem to matter what, we were the criminals. Me being the worst. My husband was charged with child endangerment, me with criminal child abuse. They then left just like they had come, leaving my daughter there. It was unreal! I went down later and confronted my daughter about what had happened and to show me any signs of abuse. she was mouthy and pushing at me. This time I lost my cool verbally. I couldn't believe what was going on. If we were such a threat, why did they leave her with us. I had heard that children could be taken to some sort of juvenlle center or home if the parents thought they were out of control. With her being still defiante and even more FU's, I called the police again to take her to one of those places. I wanted her to feel her loose her home, for at least overnight. The police showed up. It was different ones. They started calling all the places in Denver that takes kids. NO ONE would take her. They then called my ex-husband to see if he would take her. I must add here, that the cop who was calling around for a place, loved to say," We have a girl here that her parents beat her" at every call. This was in front of my whole family. I finally went up to him and told him that I thought you were innocent until proven guilty and that I didn't appreciate him saying we beat her. Her father agreed to take her. They took her with them and the next morning put her on a flight to her father. When they left, there was a female officer who seemed to have a little empathy. She took away my daughter's notebooks and journals from her and handed them to me and said, "you might need these". As I read through them, there was so many FU's and glorifing pot that I couldn't believe it. The entry that was alarming and revealing was "that she was 14 and should be able to do what she wanted and that it was her life, her body and in 3" letters FUCK ANYBODY THAT TRYS TO STOP ME". Well , she had! Oh, by the way, my husband had just been offerd a job in another state after along haul of being unemployeed THAT DAY. My husband contacted 'Focus on the Family" to obtain names of attorneys. We meet with two of them. No one would represent both of us together and wanted a $2500 to $5000 retainer a piece!!! We had no money!!! We were worried , discouraged, and overwhelmed! Friends were praying for us. In desperation, I called an attorney my husband knew from another church. He was too embarassed. I was too desperated. He was very understanding and said he had a good friend that was a criminal attorney that he would call. The attorney aggreed to help us at no charge!! We went to the first hearing. I honestly thought the DA would talk to us and after reading my daughter's journals and hearing what happened, it would be dropped. I learned there, that the child is ALWAYS RIGHT AND THE ADULT OR PARENTS ARE ALWAYS WRONG. It went on to another hearing. We were moving out of state! Our attorney was on the phone trying to get these people to be reasonalble. They finally agreed to drop the charges against my husband because it would have cost him the new job. There were no opportunities in Colorado, he had been looking for over a year. We were about to go under. We proceeded to move. It was a rough time. I cried alot , grieving the loss of my daughter. It was like a death. I had to go through the process. Much had come out after all this had happened. I had found out that my daughter had been abusing Adderoll also. I believe this was the cause of her angry, aggressive behavior. She had been on them that day. I also found out she had been having sex with several boys, you know the ones that supply the drugs. I was hurting and overwhelmed and exhausted trying to move over 1000 miles. We moved the first of June. We were going to have to fly back June 20 for another date. Expensive!! My attorney was trying very hard to see if it could be waved for us to attend. You know , the criminal never even gets to speak, accept to say your guilty. Your attorney does all the talking. The DA was very difficult for him to communicate with. They are so busy going after innocent people that it keeps them real busy!!! It was down to the week of the hearing and still no confirmed answer on our attendance. There was a reason we hadn't bought any tickets to gol The same day of the hearing, my father died. I was having to deal with the phone calls form my attorney as he was trying to negotiate a "deal" and my father dying! I thought I couldn't take much more! The DA negotiated a Class III misdeamenor and 2 years probation. I would have to go for sure in August to stand in front of judge and say I was guilty and would accept the plea. If you are wondering why I didn't go to trial, I'll tell you. My attorney's 40 something partner died the same week as my father. Now he had to take on all of his clients and cases. He simply didn't have the time for a free trial. I would have to retain another attorney if I wanted to stand with my not guilty plea to reprsent me in a trial. It would cost at least $10,000. We didn't have it. Between June 20 and the August date, my daughter, at her fathers, was continuing her activities. The week before the August date, she was expelled from school for posessing drug pariphanlia and she thought she was pregnant. I was stressed out about a 14 year old having a baby. Her father was in denial. He won't get her any help. I thought surely, with these new circumstances, the DA would rethink this. We flew out to Denver. Our attorney was communicating with the DA. No BUDGE. The day came apprehensively. We meet at the court house. I still don't want to accept the plea. I DID NOTHING WRONG - I AM NOT A CRIMINAL!!! My attorney pleads my case. I am not even given at opportunity to speak. They finally reduce the probation time to 1 year. Wow. I have a criminal record now. I was planning on chaperoning a field trip for my son's class today. We were really looking forward to it. I found out yesterday, that they won't let "criminals do that",they do checks here. My son didn't want to go without me. We haven't lived here long enough for him to have close friends. My daughter called a couple of weeks ago, for the first time to talk to me. She wanted to come home. Can we ever really trust her? She changed her mind in a few days. She is coming for Christmas. It will have been 10 months. I am the one paying the price even after 'I 'm sorry". If you have read this far, I am impressed. I needed to do this. This man's story kills me. Unless you have gone through something like this, it is just a story that might provoke you. My family has experienced it. I am living it. I am sure there are others and that there will be more government interventions in our lives and families. I just NEVER THOUGHT IT WOULD BE MINE! If anyone, has any opportunity to give this to this father of 9, please do. My heart goes out to him and his family. I pray they will be able to recover from the damage the 'system' has done to them. It is amazing. They never got my daughter any help. Now I've been told by others, NEVER call the police unless it is life or death.God help the parents and children of this time!!

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Joan Arc,

That's a horrific story and unfortunately, I can relate to it as we had a similar incident this August. What you said about them automatically believing the child is right and the parents are guilty is true here as well. They don't care about the truth at all.

We are trying to get our oldest son (just turned 15) into a Christian school/home where he can hopefully get some help. It's so hard with him being here with us because he can't be trusted and the stress of wondering when he might do or say something that brings the government down on us worse is terrible. That coupled with the social workers visiting every week with the attitude we are evil, bad parents, criminals or whatever, it's just unreal.

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LOVE is preached and taught more in the Bible than Spanking. In what verse of the New Tesatament did Jesus say spank your child? I do not know do not think I have ever cam acrossed it. I do know he warns them that harms HIS little ones. Keep that in mind folks.

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LOVE is preached and taught more in the Bible than Spanking. In what verse of the New Tesatament did Jesus say spank your child? I do not know do not think I have ever cam acrossed it. I do know he warns them that harms HIS little ones. Keep that in mind folks.


Corporal punishment is commanded in the Old Testament and Christ validated the Old Testament. Scripture says if one refuses to use such corrective measures then they don't truly love their child. Such corrective measures are to be used out of love and with love.

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Corporal punishment is commanded in the Old Testament and Christ validated the Old Testament. Scripture says if one refuses to use such corrective measures then they don't truly love their child. Such corrective measures are to be used out of love and with love.

LOVE is preached far more in the New Testament than punishment.

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LOVE is preached far more in the New Testament than punishment.

Doesn't negate the idea that punishment is not right.

5And ye have forgotten the exhortation which speaketh unto you as unto children, My son, despise not thou the chastening of the Lord, nor faint when thou art rebuked of him:

6For whom the Lord loveth he chasteneth, and scourgeth every son whom he receiveth.

7If ye endure chastening, God dealeth with you as with sons; for what son is he whom the father chasteneth not?

8But if ye be without chastisement, whereof all are partakers, then are ye bastards, and not sons.

9Furthermore we have had fathers of our flesh which corrected us, and we gave them reverence: shall we not much rather be in subjection unto the Father of spirits, and live?

10For they verily for a few days chastened us after their own pleasure; but he for our profit, that we might be partakers of his holiness.

11Now no chastening for the present seemeth to be joyous, but grievous: nevertheless afterward it yieldeth the peaceable fruit of righteousness unto them which are exercised thereby.


Love is not antithetical to discipline. In fact they are often the same.

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