At The Request Of The Ohio Patriot...

[DennisD]

Hi Dennis,

 

All right, the secret is out.  You don't know me, but I used to be a regular member here.  I haven't posted here for quite some time.  The testimony is mine.

 

You were right; I shouldn't have said that others know nothing about our situation, because as you've attested, you do know what it's like.  I apologize to you Dennis.  I was referring to those who jumped to the conclusion that we were using credit cards because of bad financial decisions.  They jumped to a conclusion without knowing the situation.

 

I understand your confusion; let me try to clarify for you...

 

Where we live, every church that I'm aware of (or by talking to members of other churches) have taught that it's a Christian's responsibility to tithe.  I grew up believing this.

 

We tithed, and did so gladly.  It is often promoted that if one tithes, God will take care of you and keep "the devourer" away from you.  My testimony is simply that just because someone tithes, they aren't exempt from the troubles of life...and some of those troubles can be awful.  We continued to tithe for many years during all of our troubles.  Yet, those "promises" that we heard never came to fruition.  Our situation only got worse. 

 

I wasn't blaming the pastor and church for our troubles.  I was trying to say that had the church helped us out as the Bible teaches, our situation wouldn't have been what it was.  The pastor didn't even offer us any advice other than...keep tithing.

 

I know this won't set well with some, but in a way...now that I know that tithing isn't required of Christians, I do blame tithing on our situation.  That was a lot of money that should have been used to take care of my family. 

 

I realized about four years ago that either God lied about tithing, or something else was wrong...and God doesn't lie.  This caused me to truly sit down and study the whole issue of tithing.

 

To make a long story short.  I became a New Testament giver.  Yes, tithing pre-dates the law...but so does circumcision and keeping the Sabbath.  Should we keep those mandates too? When it comes down to it (and I could go into great detail), but tithing was a law given to Israel.  Tithing wasn't money, and Israel had money.  They could even buy back their tithes with money, but they had to pay 20% above whatever the tithe was valued at.  I could go on, but it would take forever.

 

Once we started practicing New Testament giving, our situation began to turn around.  We experienced some of those miracles that people testify of because they tithed; however, we were giving as the Lord prospered us and as we purposed in our heart.  I'm not opposed to anyone who purposes in their heart to give 10% of their income to the Lord, but nowhere are Christians commanded to tithe their income (as is often preached).

 

Sorry if this confuses you more, because now...I'll disappear back into the woodwork.

 

Thank you for sharing, sorry you had to go through that.

[Standing Firm In Christ]

God says His tithe is crops and livestock
Man says the tithe is money.

God says the children of Israel are to tithe
Man says children of all nations are to tithe.

God says the Levites are to receive the tithe
Man says the Church is to receive the tithe

God says only the Levites are to tithe to the Temple
Man says everybody tithes to the Church.

God says the congregation is to take the 1st tithe to the Levitical cities, The 2nd tithe to the place I choose, the 3rd tithe this to stay at your house to feed the widows, orphans, Levites living on your property, and foreigners visiting your city.

Man says the tithe is to go to the Church.

God said the tithe was not received every seventh year.
Man says there is no rest from tithing.

Sadly, many dismiss what God says and embrace the commandments of men.

[DennisD]

God says His tithe is crops and livestock
Man says the tithe is money.

God says the children of Israel are to tithe
Man says children of all nations are to tithe.

God says the Levites are to receive the tithe
Man says the Church is to receive the tithe

God says only the Levites are to tithe to the Temple
Man says everybody tithes to the Church.

God says the congregation is to take the 1st tithe to the Levitical cities, The 2nd tithe to the place I choose, the 3rd tithe this to stay at your house to feed the widows, orphans, Levites living on your property, and foreigners visiting your city.

Man says the tithe is to go to the Church.

God said the tithe was not received every seventh year.
Man says there is no rest from tithing.

Sadly, many dismiss what God says and embrace the commandments of men.

 

Ok, if someone "tithes" and someone is saved because of it...Heaven still rejoices.

 

You could be absolutely correct, there is a really good chance you are spot on and your view is the Biblical view.  I'm just not going to ram it down anyones throat, I'll allow the Holy Spirit to guide and praise the Lord for souls saved...even if it's from Churches that teach "tithing".

[Standing Firm In Christ]

One isn't going to be saved by someone else "tithing". Faith is what brings salvation, and faith only comes by the hearing of the Word of God.

The monetary tithe doctrine is not the Word of God... It is the invention of man.

[DennisD]

One isn't going to be saved by someone else "tithing". Faith is what brings salvation, and faith only comes by the hearing of the Word of God.

The monetary tithe doctrine is not the Word of God... It is the invention of man.

 

Yes, and some people hear the Word of God when missionaries are sent from Churches that teach tithing.  So, if someone "tithes" and that money is used to send a missionary out...it was part of the process.

[DennisD]

For sake of argument.  Let's say someone gets saved at a Christian rock concert (lets say the lead singer gave a testimony and a clear presentation of the Gospel).  Legitimately saved.  Heaven rejoices and as Christians...we would rejoice at that person getting saved.  But, we are wholly and rightfully against even the premise of "Christian rock".  Let alone the concert environment.  Whether you like it or not, that avenue was used to have someone saved.  You don't have to praise that part, it was still used in a way that doesn't seem pleasing to the Lord but used nonetheless.

 

I know that's a lot of if's and not sure if someone has been legitimately saved at a rock concert.  But, it's the same concept with the "tithe" or offering.  If that money is used to get the Gospel out, it is part of the process and can ultimately help the Word of God get out and someone gets saved, we rejoice.  It's not really a theoretical argument, it happens all the time.

[Standing Firm In Christ]

Since God said what His tithe consisted of, it does not mean anything for someone to say their money is a tithe... Except to mean they deny God's Word concerning His tithe.

Just because they call it a tithe, or you recognize it as a tithe, does not make it a tithe. God's Word is the authority on what His tithe is.

You could call a skunk a goldfish, but it's still a skunk.

[DennisD]

Since God said what His tithe consisted of, it does not mean anything for someone to say their money is a tithe... Except to mean they deny God's Word concerning His tithe.

Just because they call it a tithe, or you recognize it as a tithe, does not make it a tithe. God's Word is the authority on what His tithe is.

You could call a skunk a goldfish, but it's still a skunk.

 

Yes, I know...you've said this already.  What I am telling you is that if they say it out of ignorance...why brow beat someone about it?  You could possibly mention what you feel is the Biblical truth on a tithe and what NT giving truly is.  And then leave it to the Holy Spirit.  Don't get yourself so worked up about it.  Give conviction a chance, it's ok buddy.

[Standing Firm In Christ]

I highly doubt the chance of one getting saved at a Christian Rock" concert.

Anyone who believes God has anything to do with that kind of music more than likely has no true relationship with God. Oh, maybe they have a relationship with a god, , the god of one of these modern Bibles that has a son who is a liar or whose son has a mother that is a perpetual virgin or a god who didn't require faith in order to be saved, etc., but not the God of the Word.

It would be impossible to lead one to Christ if the one doing the leading is pointing to another Christ and another Gospel.

[DennisD]

I highly doubt the chance of one getting saved at a Christian Rock" concert.

Anyone who believes God has anything to do with that kind of music more than likely has no true relationship with God. Oh, maybe they have a relationship with a god, , the god of one of these modern Bibles that has a son who is a liar or whose son has a mother that is a perpetual virgin or a god who didn't require faith in order to be saved, etc., but not the God of the Word.

It would be impossible to lead one to Christ if the one doing the leading is pointing to another Christ and another Gospel.

 

Me too, that's why it was a theoretical argument.  When you first got saved, were you doing everything perfectly in regards to Biblical doctrine?  Of course not, you are still not perfect as none are.  Does that mean you couldn't give a testimony of your salvation and actually lead someone to the Lord?  It might have been kind of hard and you might fumble around a bit...but it would have been possible. 

 

If a rocker who was living a sinful life got saved, they might not realize at first (without proper discipleship) that rock music is ungodly.  They might feel their talent lies in Rock and Roll but they realize they can't live the lifestyle of drugs, alcohol and promiscuity anymore.  But, maybe they feel their calling is Christian Rock.  They could be legitimately saved but have yet to understand that they still need to come out from that lifestyle completely.  They might end up stopping cussing, drinking, etc. but they still use their talent with an electric guitar to praise the Lord.

 

Now, don't get me wrong, I am not condoning that type of music or lifestyle.  I am just illustrating a point...we all needed some type of discipleship and we all needed time to grow in the Lord.  It took me several years to stop cussing completely, it took me several years to realize I shouldn't be drinking, it took me several years to realize the KJV is the true Word of God.

 

I believe that rocker who just got saved could still give a testimony and possibly lead someone to the Lord with the help of the Holy Spirit (if he is truly saved of course).  And if you think he can't, I wholeheartedly disagree with you.  Do I think it's the most ideal way to lead someone to the Lord?  No, but I don't think it's impossible either with the Lord's help.

 

And if that theoretical situation ever happened, I would rejoice that someone got saved.  And if I ever had a personal relationship with that rocker, I would try to disciple him and help him with his walk.

 

So, last point here, if someone ignorantly called their giving a tithe and that money was somehow connected to a missionary who went out and preached the Word and saw a person get saved because of it...I'll praise the Lord.  And I will also realize that the money played a part in allowing that missionary to be sent with the Lord's help and will being the most important.

[DennisD]

I highly doubt the chance of one getting saved at a Christian Rock" concert.

Anyone who believes God has anything to do with that kind of music more than likely has no true relationship with God. Oh, maybe they have a relationship with a god, , the god of one of these modern Bibles that has a son who is a liar or whose son has a mother that is a perpetual virgin or a god who didn't require faith in order to be saved, etc., but not the God of the Word.

It would be impossible to lead one to Christ if the one doing the leading is pointing to another Christ and another Gospel.

 

SFIC,

 

I truly do appreciate your stand on this and for sharing what you feel is the true Biblical doctrine of giving.  Do not be discouraged because your posts have helped me in some sense.  You're just a little grumpy is all.

[Standing Firm In Christ]

I am not grumpy in the least. Lol

[JimsHelpmeet]

Concerning the abolishing of the ordinances, Russell Kelly writes:
 

Bro. Kelly is an elder in my church   I did want to point out that Bro. Kelly believes that tithing, as commanded of the Jewish people in the Old Testament, differs from what we consider a tithe today. On many occasions, Bro. Kelly has implored the congregation to be cheerful, and sacrificial, givers and has even asked that of us in his Sunday school class. He once admonished us to "give until it hurts". Our church does not teach a literal 10% tithe. My first church (Southern Baptist Convention) did, but no two church elders could agree if it was 10% off your gross or net income. This caused a great bit of confusion.

 

Most of the churches in our area not only teach a literal 10% tithe, but will not allow membership until you agree to having your tithe auto-drafted from your bank account. That, to me, is not scriptural. Giving to the church is, but not under the threat of being disfellowshipped.

[DennisD]

I am not grumpy in the least. Lol

 

Well, you should work on that...you come off as grumpy haha.

[JerryNumbers]

Do you give an offering to church?  

 

 

You do give an offering?  So it appears your "teaching" which most here don't agree with, is a hang up of calling it tithing, and the amount of the offering

 

>Nothing whatsoever to do with that word, but everything to do with the Holy Scriptures.

 

And that post over there finishes me up on this topic, I've said everything that needs to be said, & I feel most others have to, & no minds will be changed. And only friction will take place if this keeps going.