At The Request Of The Ohio Patriot...

[DennisD]

If they  give x amount because that is what they choose of their own selves to give, then God is more pleased than if they were giving because they are told to give that amount.

 

I do appreciate you taking the time.  Pretty sure that's all I have!

[LindaR]

I haven't had any bills go to collections.

 

Can you answer my question please?  If it's too personal for them and you don't know, that's fine.

The brother who shared this testimony said his reasons for using the credit card were confidential and that I should not share those reasons.  But he did say that he has been blessed since he and his wife quit tithing and started "grace giving" according to the teaching of the New Testament.

 

Grace giving is NOT OT tithing.  Are you dispensational, Dennis?  Are we to live by grace through faith in all things except for our giving.  Tithing was strictly OT and it was never money.  If a person "purposes in his heart" to give 10% and not because some pastor/teacher told him he MUST do so, then by all means, give 10%.  BUT, do not call that 10% a TITHE, because it isn't a TITHE.

[DennisD]

The brother who shared this testimony said his reasons for using the credit card were confidential and that I should not share those reasons.  But he did say that he has been blessed since he and his wife quit tithing and started "grace giving" according to the teaching of the New Testament.

 

Grace giving is NOT OT tithing.  Are you dispensational, Dennis?  Are we to live by grace through faith in all things except for our giving.  Tithing was strictly OT and it was never money.  If a person "purposes in his heart" to give 10% and not because some pastor/teacher told him he MUST do so, then by all means, give 10%.  BUT, do not call that 10% a TITHE, because it isn't a TITHE.

 

I never said what my thoughts were on tithing or grace giving.  I am just asking questions, no need to use capital letters on me lol.

[Standing Firm In Christ]

If ever I use caps, it may be by mistake.  Being blind, I do tend to hit the Caps key accidentally on occasion. 

I do not think my wife is trying to yell when using caps.  I think she merely wants to stress something important.

I really never understood the concept of caps yelling at someone anyway.  I always thought bold lettering would be more like shouting.  LOL

[DennisD]

If ever I use caps, it may be by mistake.  Being blind, I do tend to hit the Caps key accidentally on occasion. 

I do not think my wife is trying to yell when using caps.  I think she merely wants to stress something important.

I really never understood the concept of caps yelling at someone anyway.  I always thought bold lettering would be more like shouting.  LOL

 

I guess I thought it the opposite from that, bolding would be to stress something and capitals are yelling.  Oh well, no worries.

[LindaR]

I never said what my thoughts were on tithing or grace giving.  I am just asking questions, no need to use capital letters on me lol.

Sorry about the use of caps....I wasn't yelling...just trying to stress  a point about tithing.  Again, I apologize.

[DennisD]

Sorry about the use of caps....I wasn't yelling...just trying to stress  a point about tithing.  Again, I apologize.

 

It's ok, no problem...I realize why you were doing it now.

 

I understand your position and I am starting to lean more toward grace giving but I think using the tithe word (especially in ignorance) is not really a huge issue.  Tithe specifically is tenth of annual increase of profits of land and stock.  But, generally, tithe means a tenth of anything.  Don't worry, I am not saying we have to tithe!  I am just saying generally, that's the definition.  Specifically...it's profits of land and stock.  Anyway, I suppose it's semantics to me.

 

If someone is giving biblically by grace giving and they call it a tithe...eh, no harm done really.  Wouldn't upset me either way.

[LindaR]

I'm not sure as to who it was who wanted more information about our friend and brother in Christ and why he and is wife had to resort to credit cards to meet their debts...all the while, they were tithing faithfully.  He told me to share this with you all:

 

 

ALL of our basic needs were met...just as Jesus promised. Granted, we did buy a few groceries on a couple of occasions, but our debt (the things we needed that I mentioned) was from medical expenses. Technically, medical expenses aren't included in the needs that Jesus promised...

Matthew 6:31
Therefore take no thought, saying, What shall we eat? or, What shall we drink? or, Wherewithal shall we be clothed?

Instead of looking for fault with our family, I believe the fault also lies with those who knew our situation...our church and our pastor. We were never offered any help from any of them. Part of the church's responsibility is to help other Christians who are in need, but it was never offered. Don't get me wrong...it never entered my mind that they should help back then. I wasn't (and never have been) mad at the lack of help.

The people at Online Baptist know nothing of our situation. They jumped to a conclusion. They know nothing of how we agonized over the prospect of using credit cards to pay for our daughter's health costs. They know nothing of what it's like to wait, and wait, and wait while your child is suffering...thinking, hoping, and praying that God will provide a miracle for her and the costs incurred. After exploring the only options that we were aware of, we acted in the only way that we knew how. Luckily for America, we used credit cards to pay for her medical expenses. We could have done like many other Christians and gone to the government for help and let other people pay for our daughter's medical treatment. At least with our using credit cards, I'm the one who paid for it.

Whether he believes the testimony or not, it's the truth. I knew when "CREDIT CARD" was mentioned, folks would AUTOMATICALLY jump to a conclusion, and they did.

God took care of us through it all. I never made a late-payment to anyone I owed, and NEVER made a minimum payment to a credit card. If there had been another way for us to have handled the situation, I would have loved to have known. Unfortunately, no one offered us help or advice. We just found out recently that someone with a strained financial situation can go to the hospital administration and possibly have the costs reduced. No one told us that back then. Had we known that, the credit card situation may never have been an issue.

With that said, God taught us many things through this, and he brought us through it victoriously. Perhaps he allowed it to happen to us so that we can help others in a similar situation. That's the way that I look at it anyway.

I hope and pray that none of them have to go through what we did.

 

[DennisD]

Well, it is a powerful testimony that the Lord brought them through.  Not sure how he knows for sure it was from tithing and then quitting.  I just don't know.

 

I do think it's kind of disappointing that he would say the people of Online Baptist don't know our situation but then says we know nothing of waiting while our child suffers in a hospital.  I know that situation all too well so it would be best not to jump to conclusion on what we have gone through in our lives.

 

As he said, maybe the Lord put them through that so they could help others in similar situations and glorify Him in the process.  He also mentions that the fault might have lied with the people that knew their situation.  So, I am confused now.  Do they think it was their fault for tithing unbiblically or the fault of the people that knew their situation?  I am not trying to be a stick in the mud or someone that questions everything.  I just feel like the first post they were completely blaming it on themselves because they were tithing 10%.  Now, the person is blaming others that knew their situation but didn't help.

 

It's a good testimony and appreciate you sharing it with us though.  Glad the Lord brought them through it, no matter the reasoning.

[TheSword]

I should have also said for that first one.  If you do believe in tithing, do you give cheerfully?

 

Perhaps I'm in the minority, but I do.  I get my paycheck on the 30th/31st of the month and try to have tithe check written by the following Sunday...unless I can't find my checkbook, in which case I take it to the next worship service after I find it.  I've seen both sides of the equation on it.  The short short version:  When I had more than enough money to spare I resisted tithing because I felt I should payoff the irresponsible debt of my youth.  It all came back in the end.  When I started tithing, not knowing if there would be enough to money to last, I was never short a single dollar (though came within a couple dimes once).  Some would have called tithing in my situation at the time wreckless and irresponsible, but it was such a blessing to watch God provide time and time again.  Now I gladly give back to God that which is already His and I just keep watching the blessings roll in.  I just don't worry about money anymore and try to be a conduit for God's blessings rather than a sponge.  Giving a tithe (setting aside the first portion to give back to Him) with the wrong heart is futile, because you can't buy God's blessings; but giving with a glad and thankful heart for having gotten anything at all begets blessings and joy.

[DennisD]

Perhaps I'm in the minority, but I do.  I get my paycheck on the 30th/31st of the month and try to have tithe check written by the following Sunday...unless I can't find my checkbook, in which case I take it to the next worship service after I find it.  I've seen both sides of the equation on it.  The short short version:  When I had more than enough money to spare I resisted tithing because I felt I should payoff the irresponsible debt of my youth.  It all came back in the end.  When I started tithing, not knowing if there would be enough to money to last, I was never short a single dollar (though came within a couple dimes once).  Some would have called tithing in my situation at the time wreckless and irresponsible, but it was such a blessing to watch God provide time and time again.  Now I gladly give back to God that which is already His and I just keep watching the blessings roll in.  I just don't worry about money anymore and try to be a conduit for God's blessings rather than a sponge.  Giving a tithe (setting aside the first portion to give back to Him) with the wrong heart is futile, because you can't buy God's blessings; but giving with a glad and thankful heart for having gotten anything at all begets blessings and joy.

 

Thank you for the comment.  I also believe people can cheerfully give a tithe (if you believe in tithing) even if they consider it an obligation.  Like I said previously though, I am starting to lean more towards grace giving but I don't think it's far fetched to say someone can cheerfully give out of obligation.  Someone might feel obligated to give their child a birthday party...they still would cheerfully do it.

 

Thanks again.

[Standing Firm In Christ]

I ask again...

God defined what His Holy tithe consisted of in His Holy Word.

What gives man the right to say it is something that God never declared it to be? To say that God's tithe is anything else than what He declared it to be is to call God a liar.

To say that God requires us to tithe when there is no such Scriptural mandate is to lie about God.

[TheSword]

Thank you for the comment.  I also believe people can cheerfully give a tithe (if you believe in tithing) even if they consider it an obligation.  Like I said previously though, I am starting to lean more towards grace giving but I don't think it's far fetched to say someone can cheerfully give out of obligation.  Someone might feel obligated to give their child a birthday party...they still would cheerfully do it.

 

Thanks again.

 

Welcome.  I also believe in grace giving, but I think I define it differently.  In my understanding it is an over-and-above that is given selflessly, usually to a particular purpose (e.g., church project or person in need).  I also like the Faith Promise model of missions giving.  Give give give I suppose.  Really the thing is I believe 100% is God's so when He lays on my heart to give something beyond what I should be giving back to Him anyway it's not that hard to let go of it.  Just another opportunity to bless and be blessed.

[DennisD]

I ask again...

God defined what His Holy tithe consisted of in His Holy Word.

What gives man the right to say it is something that God never declared it to be? To say that God's tithe is anything else than what He declared it to be is to call God a liar.

To say that God requires us to tithe when there is no such Scriptural mandate is to lie about God.

 

Personally, I just haven't been completely convinced either way.  So, if someone calls it a tithe and that's not the correct terminology...I don't feel comfortable brow beating someone on this point.  And, even if or when I decide to fully commit to grace giving...probably still won't brow beat anyone about it.  I will allow the Holy Spirit to work in their life and guide them toward the correct way.

 

I've seen the leading of the Holy Spirit so powerfully that I'll rely on that rather than message board debating.  This particular subject, to me at least, is not worth breaking fellowship.  Many things are to me, just not this one.

[No Nicolaitans]

Well, it is a powerful testimony that the Lord brought them through.  Not sure how he knows for sure it was from tithing and then quitting.  I just don't know.

 

I do think it's kind of disappointing that he would say the people of Online Baptist don't know our situation but then says we know nothing of waiting while our child suffers in a hospital.  I know that situation all too well so it would be best not to jump to conclusion on what we have gone through in our lives.

 

As he said, maybe the Lord put them through that so they could help others in similar situations and glorify Him in the process.  He also mentions that the fault might have lied with the people that knew their situation.  So, I am confused now.  Do they think it was their fault for tithing unbiblically or the fault of the people that knew their situation?  I am not trying to be a stick in the mud or someone that questions everything.  I just feel like the first post they were completely blaming it on themselves because they were tithing 10%.  Now, the person is blaming others that knew their situation but didn't help.

 

It's a good testimony and appreciate you sharing it with us though.  Glad the Lord brought them through it, no matter the reasoning.

 

Hi Dennis,

 

All right, the secret is out.  You don't know me, but I used to be a regular member here.  I haven't posted here for quite some time.  The testimony is mine.

 

You were right; I shouldn't have said that others know nothing about our situation, because as you've attested, you do know what it's like.  I apologize to you Dennis.  I was referring to those who jumped to the conclusion that we were using credit cards because of bad financial decisions.  They jumped to a conclusion without knowing the situation.

 

I understand your confusion; let me try to clarify for you...

 

Where we live, every church that I'm aware of (or by talking to members of other churches) have taught that it's a Christian's responsibility to tithe.  I grew up believing this.

 

We tithed, and did so gladly.  It is often promoted that if one tithes, God will take care of you and keep "the devourer" away from you.  My testimony is simply that just because someone tithes, they aren't exempt from the troubles of life...and some of those troubles can be awful.  We continued to tithe for many years during all of our troubles.  Yet, those "promises" that we heard never came to fruition.  Our situation only got worse. 

 

I wasn't blaming the pastor and church for our troubles.  I was trying to say that had the church helped us out as the Bible teaches, our situation wouldn't have been what it was.  The pastor didn't even offer us any advice other than...keep tithing.

 

I know this won't set well with some, but in a way...now that I know that tithing isn't required of Christians, I do blame tithing on our situation.  That was a lot of money that should have been used to take care of my family. 

 

I realized about four years ago that either God lied about tithing, or something else was wrong...and God doesn't lie.  This caused me to truly sit down and study the whole issue of tithing.

 

To make a long story short.  I became a New Testament giver.  Yes, tithing pre-dates the law...but so does circumcision and keeping the Sabbath.  Should we keep those mandates too? When it comes down to it (and I could go into great detail), but tithing was a law given to Israel.  Tithing wasn't money, and Israel had money.  They could even buy back their tithes with money, but they had to pay 20% above whatever the tithe was valued at.  I could go on, but it would take forever.

 

Once we started practicing New Testament giving, our situation began to turn around.  We experienced some of those miracles that people testify of because they tithed; however, we were giving as the Lord prospered us and as we purposed in our heart.  I'm not opposed to anyone who purposes in their heart to give 10% of their income to the Lord, but nowhere are Christians commanded to tithe their income (as is often preached).

 

Sorry if this confuses you more, because now...I'll disappear back into the woodwork.