At The Request Of The Ohio Patriot...

[TheSword]

I'm pretty late getting into this one (sorry for that), but since no one else has brought it up I thought I would mention that the principle of tithing (giving back to God a portion of which He has so graciously given to you) existed before the Law (Gen 14:18-20).  The Law standardized the practice based on the principle.  While the Law was certainly abolished on the cross, but the principle of tithing was not and is therefore normative for today.

[Standing Firm In Christ]

My apologies for not getting to you sooner. Busy at the church. According to Numbers 18:26 it was for the inheritance of the Levites. They didn't have land to work and had jobs to do in the tabernacle, therefore the tithe was their inheritance.

OK, now show me in Scripture when God amended the tithe regulation by instructing it to go to the Church?

[Standing Firm In Christ]

I'm pretty late getting into this one (sorry for that), but since no one else has brought it up I thought I would mention that the principle of tithing (giving back to God a portion of which He has so graciously given to you) existed before the Law (Gen 14:18-20).  The Law standardized the practice based on the principle.  While the Law was certainly abolished on the cross, but the principle of tithing was not and is therefore normative for today.

abram's tithe to Melchizedek's tithe established a principle? Really? How is that?

Abram is never said to have tithed more than that one time.
Abram tithed property that did not belong to him.

If a tithing principle did exist, it is funny there is no mention of the Apostles teaching such principle.

Sorry TheSword, but there is no tithing principle established in the Word.

[The Ohio Patriot]

Do you give an offering to church?  

 

Sorry TheSword, but there is no tithing principle established in the Word.

 

You do give an offering?  So it appears your "teaching" which most here don't agree with, is a hang up of calling it tithing, and the amount of the offering

[Standing Firm In Christ]

Do you give an offering to church?  

 

 

You do give an offering?  So it appears your "teaching" which most here don't agree with, is a hang up of calling it tithing, and the amount of the offering

When I give, I give.  I give what I purpose in my heart to give as instructed in 2 Corinthians 9:7.  10%?  I have not given 10% since the day the Lord opened my eyes to the deceit being preached from the pulpit concerning His tithes.

You, and others, can call it semantics all you want.  But truth be known, it is not semantics.  That is obvious when Sunday after Sunday, when it comes time to the offering plate being passed around, the pastor always says "tithes and offerings" in whatever phrase he uses to announce that time to the congregation.  No, my friend, it is not semantics.  The pastor calls for tithes AND offerings.  HE expects that 10% that the Word nowhere authorizes the Church to demand of its members.

And then, once or twice a year, when preaching on tithing, he always uses Malachi 3:8-10 as his main text to prove that the Church is to receive tithes or they are robbing God.  Sorry, but those who teach their members to tithe or they are robbing God are extortioners by the legal definition of the word:

Extortion:  The obtaining of property from another induced by wrongful use of actual or threatened force, violence, or fear, or under color of official right.

The pastor preaches fear into his congregation if they don't give 10% of their money to the Church.  Tithe or be cursed.  That is all under color of official right.  Extortion through and through.

[The Ohio Patriot]

When I give, I give.  I give what I purpose in my heart to give as instructed in 2 Corinthians 9:7.  10%?  I have not given 10% since the day the Lord opened my eyes to the deceit being preached from the pulpit concerning His tithes

 

I certainly like most disagree and it is sad that you have to teach such things in a day when the church suffers.

[Standing Firm In Christ]

I certainly like most disagree and it is sad that you have to teach such things in a day when the church suffers.

Disagree all you want. 

Show me in Scripture where God's Holy tithe of crops and livestock was amended to be a tithe of money?
Show me in Scripture where God's Holy tithe is to go to Churches around the world instead of into storehouses in Israel?

So far, all I have seen is disagreement with no Scripture to back up that disagreement.  I have provided Scripture that supports my stance... where is yours?

[TheSword]

abram's tithe to Melchizedek's tithe established a principle? Really? How is that?

Abram is never said to have tithed more than that one time.
Abram tithed property that did not belong to him.

If a tithing principle did exist, it is funny there is no mention of the Apostles teaching such principle.

Sorry TheSword, but there is no tithing principle established in the Word.

 

I didn't say it established the principle.  What is clear though is that it existed as a principle prior to this occasion.  As I said, the principle is giving back to God a portion of the increase He has given (regardless of the type of increase).  Abram/Abraham gave to Melchizedek a tithe out of the increase of goods from the battle (or raid or whatever you want to call it) before he turned the rest back over to the king of Sodom.

 

Why didn't the Apostles teach much about fasting?  The only mention is by Paul in his letters to the Corinithians and only did so as an assumption that it was taking place. Something Paul did do though was teach and exhort the churches in Corinth and Galatia to set aside a portion of their income on a regular (weekly) basis for the work of God (1 Cor 16:1-2) and that the workman of God (e.g., apostle, pastor, evangelist, etc.) deserve to be paid and live off the giving of the church even though he didn't demand it from them (1 Cor 9:1-13).  I could be wrong, but those sound an awful lot like the principle of tithing to me.

[Standing Firm In Christ]

1 Cor. 16:2 was not a collection for the local body, it was for poor saints in another location.

This passage cannot be demonstrated to teach tithing for more than one reason.

The tithes had been abolished as shown in both Ephesians and Colossians.
Even if the tithes were still in effect, Paul was not authorized to receive them. He was a Benjamite, not a Levite.

This was a collection to be sent to the poor saints in another city. The only tithe that fed the poor was the tithe the Levites gave, (1%of all increase of all of Israel) and the third tithe which was not sent anywhere but rather kept on the tither's property.
Paul clearly said it was a collection, not a tithe.

1 Corinthians does not say the pastor should live off of the giving of the Church. They that preach the Gospel was not speaking of stationary pastors, it was speaking of traveling ministers.

Also, the hings of the Temple and the that wait at the altar was not speaking of the congregation's tithe. The congregation's tithe never made it to the altar or the Temple. Only a tenth of their tithe did. If there was a remote chance that Paul was speaking of tithes in verse 13, it was the tithe the Levites gave, not the tithe of the children of Israel.

[The Ohio Patriot]

Disagree all you want. 

Show me in Scripture where God's Holy tithe of crops and livestock was amended to be a tithe of money?
Show me in Scripture where God's Holy tithe is to go to Churches around the world instead of into storehouses in Israel?

So far, all I have seen is disagreement with no Scripture to back up that disagreement.  I have provided Scripture that supports my stance... where is yours?

 

It is impossible to prove to you in scripture because you willingly refuse to see....  You continue in circular logic claiming no one has shown you scripture, but several have you disagree and start back in the circle again.  I have been around the circle enough now to know when to get off the ride.

 

 

 

When I give, I give.  I give what I purpose in my heart to give as instructed in 2 Corinthians 9:7.  10%?  I have not given 10% since the day the Lord opened my eyes to the deceit being preached from the pulpit concerning His tithes.

 

This is a clear statement of what is in your heart.  2 Corinthians 9:7 Every man according as he purposeth in his heart, so let him give; not grudgingly, or of necessity: for God loveth a cheerful giver. 

[Standing Firm In Christ]

It is impossible to prove to you in scripture because you willingly refuse to see....  You continue in circular logic claiming no one has shown you scripture, but several have you disagree and start back in the circle again.  I have been around the circle enough now to know when to get off the ride.
 
 

 


 
This is a clear statement of what is in your heart.  2 Corinthians 9:7 Every man according as he purposeth in his heart, so let him give; not grudgingly, or of necessity: for God loveth a cheerful giver.

it is not that I am not willing to see, it is that you have provided nothing for me to see. People have given Scripture that proves we are to tithe our money? Really? Where? Refresh my memory. What post(s) can these Scriptures be found in?

[Anon]

I'm pretty late getting into this one (sorry for that), but since no one else has brought it up I thought I would mention that the principle of tithing (giving back to God a portion of which He has so graciously given to you) existed before the Law (Gen 14:18-20).  The Law standardized the practice based on the principle.  While the Law was certainly abolished on the cross, but the principle of tithing was not and is therefore normative for today.

 

This is our view as well.

 

A tithe is a good place to START.   Of course as NT Christians we should cheerfully give more than that, but a tithe is a great starting place.   And if you "don't believe in the tithe but give more than 10% anyway" then what's the big debate?

 

As long as the church is not stealing money or guilting people into giving it, then it's only for the benefit of the members who are learning to generously give to God...and God will richly bless each person who does so.

 

Of course, if you want to do NT giving, you could always just give everything...like the poor woman who put in her two mites, or like the church in Jerusalem who made "all things common".....

[Standing Firm In Christ]

I have yet to hear a tithing sermon from any preacher where he does not "guilt members" into tithing.  Every one I have ever heard tells their congregation or listening audience (if over the radio or television) that they are "robbing God" if they don't tithe. 

There is the guilting.  Telling someone they are robbing God if they don't tithe.

And since the Word tells us that tithing has been done away with anyway, any pastor or teacher that preaches/teaches their members to tithe is preaching his own opinion and not doctrine supported by Scripture.

[TheSword]

1 Cor. 16:2 was not a collection for the local body, it was for poor saints in another location.

This passage cannot be demonstrated to teach tithing for more than one reason.

The tithes had been abolished as shown in both Ephesians and Colossians.
Even if the tithes were still in effect, Paul was not authorized to receive them. He was a Benjamite, not a Levite.

This was a collection to be sent to the poor saints in another city. The only tithe that fed the poor was the tithe the Levites gave, (1%of all increase of all of Israel) and the third tithe which was not sent anywhere but rather kept on the tither's property.
Paul clearly said it was a collection, not a tithe.

1 Corinthians does not say the pastor should live off of the giving of the Church. They that preach the Gospel was not speaking of stationary pastors, it was speaking of traveling ministers.

Also, the hings of the Temple and the that wait at the altar was not speaking of the congregation's tithe. The congregation's tithe never made it to the altar or the Temple. Only a tenth of their tithe did. If there was a remote chance that Paul was speaking of tithes in verse 13, it was the tithe the Levites gave, not the tithe of the children of Israel.

 

You seem to be missing my point.   I never said that we were supposed to tithe in the manner and rule of the Law, nor did I say it should be an ecclesiological rule metting church discipline.  What I'm talking about is the principle of giving God that which is His.  Technically that's everything we own, including our bodies (Rom 12:1-2).  Even though we are not under the Law, the Law is still beneficial for understanding God's mind on things.  The entirety of the OT is clear that God's mind on money and possessions is that He provided it and wants His people to obediently give a portion back.  You seem to trying to draw a line between the OT and NT and asserting that there's a different God on each side.  God is the same yesterday, today, and forever (Heb 13:8) and the God of the OT established a priciple of giving Him back a portion of our increase. 

 

I increased by $X this month.  If I love God and want to obediently serve Him, I should loving give Him back a portion of it and say "Thank you! Please continue to provide for my needs."  If you don't want to tithe, that's perfectly fine, don't tithe.  I love God and want to give Him my best so I tithe.  It's not about meeting a requirement or checking a box on the church roll sheet.  It's the principle of giving to God what's rightfully His anyway.

[Anon]

I have yet to hear a tithing sermon from any preacher where he does not "guilt members" into tithing.  Every one I have ever heard tells their congregation or listening audience (if over the radio or television) that they are "robbing God" if they don't tithe. 

There is the guilting.  Telling someone they are robbing God if they don't tithe.

And since the Word tells us that tithing has been done away with anyway, any pastor or teacher that preaches/teaches their members to tithe is preaching his own opinion and not doctrine supported by Scripture.

 

The Bible does not say that "tithing" has been done away with.

 

Like I said, New Testament giving was WAY WAY WAY above 10%.  It was most of what people made.  They sent TONS of money and help to Paul and others...often making all their goods and money in a pile owned by the whole church.   So, really, to teach congregations that they should start at 10% (being a Scriptural principal) is the least God asks of us.

 

Would it make you feel better if we guilted our churches into making all things common to all men?  Or giving our last mites?

 

Anyway, my husband doesn't preach on it much, but when he does, he reminds people that it is for God, not him, and that God will richly bless anyone who gives to Him by faith.  And that 10% is the example to follow throughout the entire Bible.