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At The Request Of The Ohio Patriot...

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OK, now show me in Scripture when God amended the tithe regulation by instructing it to go to the Church?

It is instructed in the fact that all Scripture is given for instruction in righteousness. I don't understand where it was "done away with".

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Ephesians 2:14-15 For he is our peace, who hath made both one, and hath broken down the middle wall of partition between us; Having abolished in his flesh the enmity, even the law of commandments contained in ordinances; for to make in himself of twain one new man, so making peace;

Colossians 2:14 Blotting out the handwriting of ordinances that was against us, which was contrary to us, and took it out of the way, nailing it to his cross;
Hebrews 7:18 For there is verily a disannulling of the commandment going before for the weakness and unprofitableness thereof.

Sorry Kitagirl, but the tithe was done away.  The tithe was an ordinance according to Malachi 3, and the Word clearly tells us the ordinances have been abolished.  The context of Hebrews 7:1-18 is tithes, and verse 18 clearly tells us the commandment has been disannulled... cancelled out... no more.

Where does God ask us to give at the least 10%?  You make the claim.  Back it with Scripture.  Those in Acts were not told to sell their properties and lay the money at the Apostles feet.  They did it because they chose to do it.

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Ephesians 2:14-15 For he is our peace, who hath made both one, and hath broken down the middle wall of partition between us; Having abolished in his flesh the enmity, even the law of commandments contained in ordinances; for to make in himself of twain one new man, so making peace;

Colossians 2:14 Blotting out the handwriting of ordinances that was against us, which was contrary to us, and took it out of the way, nailing it to his cross;
Hebrews 7:18 For there is verily a disannulling of the commandment going before for the weakness and unprofitableness thereof.

Sorry Kitagirl, but the tithe was done away.  The tithe was an ordinance according to Malachi 3, and the Word clearly tells us the ordinances have been abolished.  The context of Hebrews 7:1-18 is tithes, and verse 18 clearly tells us the commandment has been disannulled... cancelled out... no more.
 

Ephesians 2 is talking about the ordinances necessary to observe in order to obtain access to God, namely circumcision. *out of context*

Colossians 2 is talking about meats, drinks, holydays, new moons, and Sabbaths. (I know that you say that the meats is talking about tithes but I would disagree to say it is talking about meat offerings, just as the drinks is talking about drink offerings) *more proof necessary*

Hebrews 7. Here I stopped and looked hard, because at first glance I was inclined to agree. However, when I backed up and read the whole chapter I say that it actually stated the opposite.

Verses1-3 tells us who Melchisedec is.

Verses 4-10 tells us that even though Melchisedec is not of the tribe of Levi (who received tithes), yet he still receives  tithes and that he still lives.

Verse 11-22 tells us (if you will pay close attention to it and not draw your own conclusions) that the priesthood went from  Melchisedec, to  the Levites, to Jesus, and that the tithes shifted with the changes. The abolished ordinance was then not the tithes, but rather, the Levitical priesthood.

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that does not say tithing was given over to the Church. Nice twist though. I can honestly say I haven' t heard that ridiculous claim before.

Mockery is not going to win you friends nor strengthen your position. I have looked at every Scripture you have given with a willingness to learn and I would appreciate it if you would extend me the same courtesy.

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Wrong! The commandment was abolished.

From http://www.tithing-russkelly.com/id18.html :


Concerning the abolishment of Mosaic Law ordinances, including tithing, Ephesians, chapter two clearly teaches:

One: Gentiles had been far off from God (vv. 11-12).

Two: The blood of Christ brought them near (v. 13). As believer-priests, they could "come near" and approach God directly.

Three: Christ made Jew and Gentile one (v. 14).

Four: However, he did not make us one by forcing Gentiles to observe ordinances of the law (v. 14).

Five: Instead, he made us one by breaking down the wall which divided the two groups of believers (v. 14).

Six: The wall which divided us was "the law of commandments contained in ordinances" (v. 15).

Seven: Again, Christ destroyed the separating enmity (v. 16).

The Jewish temple had a series of walls which subdivided its people, created inequalities, and created cultural differences. The first wall distinguished between the high priest and other priests; the second wall separated priests from Levites; a third wall separated Levites from other Hebrews; a fourth wall separated Hebrew men from Hebrew women, and a fifth wall separated all Hebrews from Gentiles. A prominent warning sign promised death to any Gentile who dared to pass beyond their wall into the confines of the temple to worship Yahweh.

The "ordinances" of the law defined at least the two most important of these walls; Solomon’s temple arrangement established other walls; and the law itself even served as a partition (Mark 12:1; Neh. 9:13; Ezek. 20:11-12). Various ordinances restricted worship for women, sick persons, persons with missing body parts, persons of mixed genealogies, persons with ceremonial defilement, plus many more who were excluded from full worship and acceptance.

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I have yet to hear a tithing sermon from any preacher where he does not "guilt members" into tithing.  Every one I have ever heard tells their congregation or listening audience (if over the radio or television) that they are "robbing God" if they don't tithe. 

There is the guilting.  Telling someone they are robbing God if they don't tithe.

And since the Word tells us that tithing has been done away with anyway, any pastor or teacher that preaches/teaches their members to tithe is preaching his own opinion and not doctrine supported by Scripture.

 

You mean conviction.  Matthew 6:24  No man can serve two masters: for either he will hate the one, and love the other; or else he will hold to the one, and despise the other. Ye cannot serve God and mammon.

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that does not say tithing was given over to the Church. Nice twist though. I can honestly say I haven' t heard that ridiculous claim before.

Where I come from, they call that mockery. Well, I have gotten from this thread what I needed. All has been clarified and what I believe has been strengthened by God's Word. I thank you for all the Scripture and I will no longer be responding on this subject.

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Where in the Bible Were Tithes Abolished?  by Russell E. Kelly, PHD

1.  WHO #1: The Levitical servants to the priests who received the first whole tithe have been abolished. See Numbers 18:21-24. Modern equivalents to the Levites are unpaid ushers, deacons, choir, musicians, etc. 

2.  WHO #2: OT priests who received a tenth of the tithe (only 1 per cent) have been abolished. See Num 18:25-28 and Neh 10:38. 

3.  WHAT: The definition of tithes as only food miraculously increased by God from inside His holy land of Israel has been abolished and replaced with the false unbiblical definition of income. See Leviticus 27:30-34 and 14 other texts which describe the contents of the tithe. Yet money was common in Genesis.  

4.  WHERE: The destination of the OT tithes first to the Levitical cities some to the Temple has been abolished. See Neh 10:37b and Mal 3:10. 

5.  WHEN: The time to tithe has been abolished. The Levitical tithe was paid yearly in the Levitical cities. The second festival tithe was eaten at the three festivals. The third poor tithe was kept in the home every third year. Tithes totaled 23 1/3 per cent. 

 

6.   WHY #1: The covenant which prescribed them was abolished per Heb 8:8-13; Gal 4:21-26' 2 Cor 3:6-10. 

7.   WHY #2: The "commandment" for Levites and priests to collect tithes was "annulled" per Hebrews 7:5, 12, 18. 

8.  WHY #3: The law which condemned believers has been rendered of no effect when the believer died in Christ per Romans 7:4. No law can tell a dead person what to do. 

9.  HOW #1: Jesus abolished the law of commandments contained in ordinances per Eph 2:13.  Tithing was an ordinance per Num 18. 

10.  HOW $2: Jesus blotted out the handwriting of ordinances, per Col 2:14. Tithing was an ordinance per Num 18. 

11.  HOW #3: The Temple which tithes supported was abolished in AD 70. God's temple is now within each believer per 1 Cor 3:16; 6:19-20. 

12.  HOW #4: The priesthood which was supported by tithes was abolished in AD 70. God's priesthood is now within every believer per 1st Peter 2:9-10. 

13. HOW #5: The blessings and curses of tithing as part of the whole law have been abolished per Galatians 3:10-13.   

Would you continue to send money to a church after
a.  The building is destroyed?
b.  The preacher has been defrocked?
c.  The workers have found other jobs?
d.  The members have all left?
e.  The land has been inhabited by non religious people?
f.  The purpose for the church no longer exists?
g.  You have died? 

Russell Earl Kelly, PHD

 

Where In The Bible Were Tithes Abolished?

 

 
 

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The Old Testament records that God's wrath was upon the children of Israel whenever they went whoring after their own inventions. Today's monetary tithe is man's invention, which, sadly, men go whoring after.


God defined what His Holy tithe consisted of in His Word. Money was not found in His Holy tithe.

In the 6th Century A.D., the Roman Catholic Church, in an attempt to get money into their coffers, invented a monetary tithe for its members. The practice spread to the Protestant Churches and eventually to the Baptist Churches, which appear to be the last Church denomination to embrace the Roman Catholic decree. Today, men are so indoctrinated with this Roman Catholic invention that they cannot see how God views the practice or what His Word says He requires of us concerning our giving.

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If someone believes in a tithe of sorts, whether it's actually 10% or whatever...does anyone think they can give it cheerfully?

 

I was Roman Catholic for several years, never heard of a tithe before.  Now, I have heard of the Catholic "church" requesting monies for those that were divorced and wanted to remarry in the church.  Additionally, they requested money for dead loved ones that were in purgatory to be "expedited" to Heaven...Catholics are weird but never heard of them promoting a tithe of sorts.

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If someone believes in a tithe of sorts, whether it's actually 10% or whatever...does anyone think they can give it cheerfully?

 

I was Roman Catholic for several years, never heard of a tithe before.  Now, I have heard of the Catholic "church" requesting monies for those that were divorced and wanted to remarry in the church.  Additionally, they requested money for dead loved ones that were in purgatory to be "expedited" to Heaven...Catholics are weird but never heard of them promoting a tithe of sorts.

 

I should have also said for that first one.  If you do believe in tithing, do you give cheerfully?

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If someone believes in a tithe of sorts, whether it's actually 10% or whatever...does anyone think they can give it cheerfully?
 
I was Roman Catholic for several years, never heard of a tithe before.  Now, I have heard of the Catholic "church" requesting monies for those that were divorced and wanted to remarry in the church.  Additionally, they requested money for dead loved ones that were in purgatory to be "expedited" to Heaven...Catholics are weird but never heard of them promoting a tithe of sorts.

research the Council of Macon 585 A.D..

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Sorry, one last question.

 

If you do not believe tithing is Biblical, do you feel those that do tithe but are able to do it cheerfully...are doing something that displeases God?  Or, is it pleasing because they are cheerfully giving their "tithe"?

 

I realize one of the examples above was from someone who said once they stopped tithing...they were blessed.  But, I know of many examples of people saying the opposite.  When they started tithing, they were blessed. 

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research the Council of Macon 585 A.D..

 

Interesting.  Although, it doesn't change the fact that I hadn't heard it promoted before.  Probably because their church gets so much money anyway...

 

SFIC,

You are a part of a local assembly of believers correct?  Do they support missionaries?  Is the Pastor there fully supported by your Church or does he have another job?  Does your Pastor promote the idea of a tithe? (I think I know the answer to this one but just curious, I am assuming you would not be part of a Church where the Pastor did this).

 

You said that you have never given 10% before.  Do you believe this is something that is specific to each believer as the Lord purposes in their heart?  So, if the Lord laid on the heart of someone to give 10% (not as a tithe but as just an offering)...this would be acceptable in God's eyes, yes?

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If one is giving ten percent of one's money because that one has been taught that God requires it, or because they believe God requires it, then they cannot be giving as prescribed in the Word. They give because of being told to give that amount or because they have to give that amount rather than choosing for themselves what they want to give.

Since God said in His Word that His tithe was crops and livestock, how can a preacher honestly tell his congregation that God's tithe is something entirely different than what the Bible declares it to be. That would be like God telling you to give a car to your neighbor but you taking the neighbor a bicycle instead and then telling God, "I gave him the car".

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Here is a testimony from a brother in Christ.  He and his wife were faithful tithers for years.  With his permission, I will share his testimony.

 

“We tithed, and did it gladly...out of a cheerful heart. We believed so firmly in tithing, that my family went without things that we needed because we tithed. We were so set on giving the Lord our tithes, that we amassed huge credit card debt; we couldn't afford to buy the things that were absolutely needful, so we paid for them with credit cards. Of course, this only got us even deeper into debt.

 

We had always heard the testimonies of how God supplied for those who tithed, and we kept waiting on God to pour out His blessings on us because we were faithful tithers. We heard how God would keep "the devourer" away from us because we tithed, but every aspect of our life seemed to be getting devoured...all while we tithed.

 

However, during that time, our family had multiple hospital stays. I never had any time with my family. We lived on the edge of bankruptcy. We had car troubles, housing problems, financial troubles, and health troubles...all while we were tithing. This went on for several years, and there was never any reprieve.

 

We never received that miracle "check in the mail" that so many testify of, no one ever offered us any help, and our situation only got worse...all while we tithed.

 

We eventually quit tithing after all of those years, and started giving just what we believed the New Testament teaches Christians to give...as the Lord has prospered you, and as we purpose in our heart. It's been a long and hard road, but we are finally starting to see some hope. We do give, but only as the New Testament tells us to, and we have seen God work mightily in our situation since we started practicing New Testament giving.”

 

Sorry Linda, I have some issues with this testimony as others have stated.  It seems to me this is bad financial management.  And the brother here mentions they had to put "absolute needs" on their credit card.  But, the Lord has told us that our basic needs will be met.

 

I do not make much money but since I've been saved...I've never gone hungry, homeless, without clothes, medical treatment, etc.  So, I guess I am just a little skeptical...sorry about that.

 

Do you know how God has worked mightily in this families life since they quit tithing?  Were their basic needs not met before or were their other needs they are speaking of?  It doesn't mention specifics so just curious if you were aware of anything.

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Interesting.  Although, it doesn't change the fact that I hadn't heard it promoted before.  Probably because their church gets so much money anyway...
 
SFIC,
You are a part of a local assembly of believers correct?  Do they support missionaries?  Is the Pastor there fully supported by your Church or does he have another job?  Does your Pastor promote the idea of a tithe? (I think I know the answer to this one but just curious, I am assuming you would not be part of a Church where the Pastor did this).
 
You said that you have never given 10% before.  Do you believe this is something that is specific to each believer as the Lord purposes in their heart?  So, if the Lord laid on the heart of someone to give 10% (not as a tithe but as just an offering)...this would be acceptable in God's eyes, yes?

the Lord would not tell one to give ten percent today. It would go against the directive for man to give as he himself purposes to give.

I do not go to a Church that teaches tithing, no. I actually believed in tithing at one time. But then, through the reading of the Word of God, my eyes were opened to the truth and I no longer preached the lie of the monetary tithe.

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If one is giving ten percent of one's money because that one has been taught that God requires it, or because they believe God requires it, then they cannot be giving as prescribed in the Word. They give because of being told to give that amount or because they have to give that amount rather than choosing for themselves what they want to give.

Since God said in His Word that His tithe was crops and livestock, how can a preacher honestly tell his congregation that God's tithe is something entirely different than what the Bible declares it to be. That would be like God telling you to give a car to your neighbor but you taking the neighbor a bicycle instead and then telling God, "I gave him the car".

 

So, you are saying that you choose what to give and do not allow God to lay it on your heart through prayer?

 

I do not see how that is different but maybe I misunderstood.  You choose to give a certain amount based on what you think and how you believe the Word of God teaches.  Someone else decides to give 10% based on what they think and how they believe the Word of God teaches.

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the Lord would not tell one to give ten percent today. It would go against the directive for man to give as he himself purposes to give.

I do not go to a Church that teaches tithing, no. I actually believed in tithing at one time. But then, through the reading of the Word of God, my eyes were opened to the truth and I no longer preached the lie of the monetary tithe.

 

Ok, thanks.

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the Lord would not tell one to give ten percent today. It would go against the directive for man to give as he himself purposes to give.

I do not go to a Church that teaches tithing, no. I actually believed in tithing at one time. But then, through the reading of the Word of God, my eyes were opened to the truth and I no longer preached the lie of the monetary tithe.

 

Sorry, follow up question.

 

So, through prayer, you do not believe the Lord would ever lay any monetary amount or percentage on the heart of man to give?  It's completely up to the person on how much they believe they can afford to give, correct?

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So, you are saying that you choose what to give and do not allow God to lay it on your heart through prayer?

 

I do not see how that is different but maybe I misunderstood.  You choose to give a certain amount based on what you think and how you believe the Word of God teaches.  Someone else decides to give 10% based on what they think and how they believe the Word of God teaches.

God will lay it on one's heart to give, but not what to give.  If He did, He would be contradicting His Word.

2 Corinthians 9:7 Every man according as he purposeth in his heart, so let him give; not grudgingly, or of necessity: for God loveth a cheerful giver.

The word "purposeth" is translated from the Greek word "proaireomai" and means, "to choose for oneself."  How does one choose for oneself what he wants to give if someone else says give this amount?

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