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Standing Firm In Christ

At The Request Of The Ohio Patriot...

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No. They amassed credit card debt because they trusted their credit card instead of the Lord.
To link the two things inextricably in this way is wrong.
However the credit card is also not the entirety of the problem.
Also, to link tithing one way or the other to Either prospering or bankruptcy is also not Biblical.

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They testified that they got credit cards to meet household needs because after tithing those needs were not being met.

Sorry Dave, but you are wrong.


no, they are blaming the wrong thing.
They mishandled their finances, the credit card was an aspect of it.
They can Blame the credit card, they can blame the tithe, but suggesting that they had to get the credit card because of the tithe is just plain wrong.

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Finance 101 --- you NEVER NEVER NEVER go into debt for short term recurring expenses (rent, food, utilities). Any CPA will tell you that no matter what the excuse, it is no excuse!

had the Church not been teaching the unScriptural monetary tithe, the man and his family may not have had to get credit cards. It is obvious they did not need them until they began bowing to the Roman Catholic teaching of tithing for the Church.

Most Churches will not help a member pay his bills month after month. Maybe, at the most, twice a year. Is the family supposed to hibernate during the other ten months? Of course not!



What? Get a second job? That is not always an option either.

Sorry, but the only thing the monetary tithe accomplishes as far as the tither is concerned is oppressing him with an unnecessary burden..

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no, they are blaming the wrong thing.
They mishandled their finances, the credit card was an aspect of it.
They can Blame the credit card, they can blame the tithe, but suggesting that they had to get the credit card because of the tithe is just plain wrong.

they can blame the church for oppressing them with a yoke that God never authorized the Church to lay on them.

They were obviously paying their bills prior to being hornswoggled into giving ten percent of their money to the coffers.

If, after they gave that ten percent, they didn't have enough to meet the needs they had before, the obvious problem is the deception taught by the Church.

Lay the ax to the root instead of the branches, branches always grow back. Edited by Standing Firm In Christ

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2Co 9:7 Every man according as he purposeth in his heart, so let him give; not grudgingly, or of necessity: for God loveth a cheerful giver.

 

Cheerful giver, that's what our Lords wants & tithing is not taught in that verse.

 

I have heard some say we have to tithe, everyone, no matter your income, & that will place everyone on equal footing with our Lord. That is not true.

 

What amazes me, & I've been in one such church, is the churches that's talking about money much of the time, always having something to be paid for, & it nearly seems if they're begging for money.

 

The church I speaking of was made up of a garden variety of people, some with lots of money, some with little money, & some in between that were likely neck deep in debt trying to keep up with the wealthy, but the latter is besides the point.

 

And it was true some of those who had little money were doing without necessities in order to give to their Lord. Some of them could never get a full supply of medicines prescribed by their doctor each month at the drug store because they were giving to the Lord. But a few people in that church was cheating them out of being a cheerful giver. Strange thing, those who were cheating these poor people out of being a cheerful giver had many luxuries in their lives & all of their necessities were being met. Not making sacrifices of their necessities as the poor people were doing in order to give to their Lord.

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using Scripture, show me the purpose of the tithe.

My apologies for not getting to you sooner. Busy at the church. According to Numbers 18:26 it was for the inheritance of the Levites. They didn't have land to work and had jobs to do in the tabernacle, therefore the tithe was their inheritance.

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Sadly, most Churches have those types of people that fail to give to help the necessities of those who have been hoodwinked into giving 10% of their finances.

 

That one church is really the only church I have ever been a part of that was real heavy on teaching tithing. I have been in one, maybe two that would bring tithing up ever now & again. Yet this church never let it rest, practically every Sunday it was mentioned, & all of us must dig deep into our pocket to give to some cause.

 

This church also wanted you to promise to give in the future that which you did not have in your pocket. That is promise in front of everyone that you would give x number of dollars throughout the year so they could promise to give to certain amounts of money to certain causes. And that had quite a long list of different causes for the member to promise to give money to. And I understand many churches do this along with other tactics. Its not scriptural, to promise to give to our Lord that which we do not have. Yet its a way to get money, & churches will use any method to squeeze money from their members, & the larger the church the worse it may get. Sadly some churches have started using worldly methods to squeeze money out of its members.

 

Many churches are like its members, neck deep in debt, promising money they do not have, them when the time comes to hand that money out someone will stand before the church saying we promised to give so & so X number of dollars by next weekend & we like many dollars having that amount so everyone is going to have to dig deep into their pockets this morning giving so we will not break our promise. Or this loan comes due next month & we have not enough money to cover it.

 

And because of such events as this in many churches money, giving, tithing is spoken of so much that some churches seems to be more about money that learning godly truths so we can follow Jesus closely & worshiping our wonderful God & His Son while having enjoyable fellow shipping with fellow believers.

 

One group of local Baptist Churches puts out a small book each year one item within it gives the amount given to every cause that they support. I believe some of the churches may spend more time talking about money & collecting money throughout each year so they can be at the top of that list.

 

You mentioned that one church threw you out because you did not tithe. That is very sad. Its no one business in that church how little or how much money you place into that plate. However it is the job of that church to feed the sheep. Seems they failed on the main point. 

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I'm pretty late getting into this one (sorry for that), but since no one else has brought it up I thought I would mention that the principle of tithing (giving back to God a portion of which He has so graciously given to you) existed before the Law (Gen 14:18-20).  The Law standardized the practice based on the principle.  While the Law was certainly abolished on the cross, but the principle of tithing was not and is therefore normative for today.

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My apologies for not getting to you sooner. Busy at the church. According to Numbers 18:26 it was for the inheritance of the Levites. They didn't have land to work and had jobs to do in the tabernacle, therefore the tithe was their inheritance.


OK, now show me in Scripture when God amended the tithe regulation by instructing it to go to the Church?

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I'm pretty late getting into this one (sorry for that), but since no one else has brought it up I thought I would mention that the principle of tithing (giving back to God a portion of which He has so graciously given to you) existed before the Law (Gen 14:18-20).  The Law standardized the practice based on the principle.  While the Law was certainly abolished on the cross, but the principle of tithing was not and is therefore normative for today.

abram's tithe to Melchizedek's tithe established a principle? Really? How is that?

Abram is never said to have tithed more than that one time.
Abram tithed property that did not belong to him.

If a tithing principle did exist, it is funny there is no mention of the Apostles teaching such principle.

Sorry TheSword, but there is no tithing principle established in the Word.

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Do you give an offering to church?  

 

Sorry TheSword, but there is no tithing principle established in the Word.

 

You do give an offering?  So it appears your "teaching" which most here don't agree with, is a hang up of calling it tithing, and the amount of the offering

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Do you give an offering to church?  

 

 

You do give an offering?  So it appears your "teaching" which most here don't agree with, is a hang up of calling it tithing, and the amount of the offering

When I give, I give.  I give what I purpose in my heart to give as instructed in 2 Corinthians 9:7.  10%?  I have not given 10% since the day the Lord opened my eyes to the deceit being preached from the pulpit concerning His tithes.

You, and others, can call it semantics all you want.  But truth be known, it is not semantics.  That is obvious when Sunday after Sunday, when it comes time to the offering plate being passed around, the pastor always says "tithes and offerings" in whatever phrase he uses to announce that time to the congregation.  No, my friend, it is not semantics.  The pastor calls for tithes AND offerings.  HE expects that 10% that the Word nowhere authorizes the Church to demand of its members.

And then, once or twice a year, when preaching on tithing, he always uses Malachi 3:8-10 as his main text to prove that the Church is to receive tithes or they are robbing God.  Sorry, but those who teach their members to tithe or they are robbing God are extortioners by the legal definition of the word:

Extortion:  The obtaining of property from another induced by wrongful use of actual or threatened force, violence, or fear, or under color of official right.

The pastor preaches fear into his congregation if they don't give 10% of their money to the Church.  Tithe or be cursed.  That is all under color of official right.  Extortion through and through.

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When I give, I give.  I give what I purpose in my heart to give as instructed in 2 Corinthians 9:7.  10%?  I have not given 10% since the day the Lord opened my eyes to the deceit being preached from the pulpit concerning His tithes

 

I certainly like most disagree and it is sad that you have to teach such things in a day when the church suffers.

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I certainly like most disagree and it is sad that you have to teach such things in a day when the church suffers.

Disagree all you want. 

Show me in Scripture where God's Holy tithe of crops and livestock was amended to be a tithe of money?
Show me in Scripture where God's Holy tithe is to go to Churches around the world instead of into storehouses in Israel?

So far, all I have seen is disagreement with no Scripture to back up that disagreement.  I have provided Scripture that supports my stance... where is yours?

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abram's tithe to Melchizedek's tithe established a principle? Really? How is that?

Abram is never said to have tithed more than that one time.
Abram tithed property that did not belong to him.

If a tithing principle did exist, it is funny there is no mention of the Apostles teaching such principle.

Sorry TheSword, but there is no tithing principle established in the Word.

 

I didn't say it established the principle.  What is clear though is that it existed as a principle prior to this occasion.  As I said, the principle is giving back to God a portion of the increase He has given (regardless of the type of increase).  Abram/Abraham gave to Melchizedek a tithe out of the increase of goods from the battle (or raid or whatever you want to call it) before he turned the rest back over to the king of Sodom.

 

Why didn't the Apostles teach much about fasting?  The only mention is by Paul in his letters to the Corinithians and only did so as an assumption that it was taking place. Something Paul did do though was teach and exhort the churches in Corinth and Galatia to set aside a portion of their income on a regular (weekly) basis for the work of God (1 Cor 16:1-2) and that the workman of God (e.g., apostle, pastor, evangelist, etc.) deserve to be paid and live off the giving of the church even though he didn't demand it from them (1 Cor 9:1-13).  I could be wrong, but those sound an awful lot like the principle of tithing to me.

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1 Cor. 16:2 was not a collection for the local body, it was for poor saints in another location.

This passage cannot be demonstrated to teach tithing for more than one reason.

The tithes had been abolished as shown in both Ephesians and Colossians.
Even if the tithes were still in effect, Paul was not authorized to receive them. He was a Benjamite, not a Levite.

This was a collection to be sent to the poor saints in another city. The only tithe that fed the poor was the tithe the Levites gave, (1%of all increase of all of Israel) and the third tithe which was not sent anywhere but rather kept on the tither's property.
Paul clearly said it was a collection, not a tithe.

1 Corinthians does not say the pastor should live off of the giving of the Church. They that preach the Gospel was not speaking of stationary pastors, it was speaking of traveling ministers.

Also, the hings of the Temple and the that wait at the altar was not speaking of the congregation's tithe. The congregation's tithe never made it to the altar or the Temple. Only a tenth of their tithe did. If there was a remote chance that Paul was speaking of tithes in verse 13, it was the tithe the Levites gave, not the tithe of the children of Israel.

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Disagree all you want. 

Show me in Scripture where God's Holy tithe of crops and livestock was amended to be a tithe of money?
Show me in Scripture where God's Holy tithe is to go to Churches around the world instead of into storehouses in Israel?

So far, all I have seen is disagreement with no Scripture to back up that disagreement.  I have provided Scripture that supports my stance... where is yours?

 

It is impossible to prove to you in scripture because you willingly refuse to see....  You continue in circular logic claiming no one has shown you scripture, but several have you disagree and start back in the circle again.  I have been around the circle enough now to know when to get off the ride.

 

 


 

When I give, I give.  I give what I purpose in my heart to give as instructed in 2 Corinthians 9:7.  10%?  I have not given 10% since the day the Lord opened my eyes to the deceit being preached from the pulpit concerning His tithes.

 

This is a clear statement of what is in your heart.  2 Corinthians 9:7 Every man according as he purposeth in his heart, so let him give; not grudgingly, or of necessity: for God loveth a cheerful giver. 

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It is impossible to prove to you in scripture because you willingly refuse to see....  You continue in circular logic claiming no one has shown you scripture, but several have you disagree and start back in the circle again.  I have been around the circle enough now to know when to get off the ride.
 
 

 


 
This is a clear statement of what is in your heart.  2 Corinthians 9:7 Every man according as he purposeth in his heart, so let him give; not grudgingly, or of necessity: for God loveth a cheerful giver.

it is not that I am not willing to see, it is that you have provided nothing for me to see. People have given Scripture that proves we are to tithe our money? Really? Where? Refresh my memory. What post(s) can these Scriptures be found in?

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I'm pretty late getting into this one (sorry for that), but since no one else has brought it up I thought I would mention that the principle of tithing (giving back to God a portion of which He has so graciously given to you) existed before the Law (Gen 14:18-20).  The Law standardized the practice based on the principle.  While the Law was certainly abolished on the cross, but the principle of tithing was not and is therefore normative for today.

 

This is our view as well.

 

A tithe is a good place to START.   Of course as NT Christians we should cheerfully give more than that, but a tithe is a great starting place.   And if you "don't believe in the tithe but give more than 10% anyway" then what's the big debate?

 

As long as the church is not stealing money or guilting people into giving it, then it's only for the benefit of the members who are learning to generously give to God...and God will richly bless each person who does so.

 

Of course, if you want to do NT giving, you could always just give everything...like the poor woman who put in her two mites, or like the church in Jerusalem who made "all things common".....

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I have yet to hear a tithing sermon from any preacher where he does not "guilt members" into tithing.  Every one I have ever heard tells their congregation or listening audience (if over the radio or television) that they are "robbing God" if they don't tithe. 

There is the guilting.  Telling someone they are robbing God if they don't tithe.

And since the Word tells us that tithing has been done away with anyway, any pastor or teacher that preaches/teaches their members to tithe is preaching his own opinion and not doctrine supported by Scripture.

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1 Cor. 16:2 was not a collection for the local body, it was for poor saints in another location.

This passage cannot be demonstrated to teach tithing for more than one reason.

The tithes had been abolished as shown in both Ephesians and Colossians.
Even if the tithes were still in effect, Paul was not authorized to receive them. He was a Benjamite, not a Levite.

This was a collection to be sent to the poor saints in another city. The only tithe that fed the poor was the tithe the Levites gave, (1%of all increase of all of Israel) and the third tithe which was not sent anywhere but rather kept on the tither's property.
Paul clearly said it was a collection, not a tithe.

1 Corinthians does not say the pastor should live off of the giving of the Church. They that preach the Gospel was not speaking of stationary pastors, it was speaking of traveling ministers.

Also, the hings of the Temple and the that wait at the altar was not speaking of the congregation's tithe. The congregation's tithe never made it to the altar or the Temple. Only a tenth of their tithe did. If there was a remote chance that Paul was speaking of tithes in verse 13, it was the tithe the Levites gave, not the tithe of the children of Israel.

 

You seem to be missing my point.   I never said that we were supposed to tithe in the manner and rule of the Law, nor did I say it should be an ecclesiological rule metting church discipline.  What I'm talking about is the principle of giving God that which is His.  Technically that's everything we own, including our bodies (Rom 12:1-2).  Even though we are not under the Law, the Law is still beneficial for understanding God's mind on things.  The entirety of the OT is clear that God's mind on money and possessions is that He provided it and wants His people to obediently give a portion back.  You seem to trying to draw a line between the OT and NT and asserting that there's a different God on each side.  God is the same yesterday, today, and forever (Heb 13:8) and the God of the OT established a priciple of giving Him back a portion of our increase. 

 

I increased by $X this month.  If I love God and want to obediently serve Him, I should loving give Him back a portion of it and say "Thank you! Please continue to provide for my needs."  If you don't want to tithe, that's perfectly fine, don't tithe.  I love God and want to give Him my best so I tithe.  It's not about meeting a requirement or checking a box on the church roll sheet.  It's the principle of giving to God what's rightfully His anyway.

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I have yet to hear a tithing sermon from any preacher where he does not "guilt members" into tithing.  Every one I have ever heard tells their congregation or listening audience (if over the radio or television) that they are "robbing God" if they don't tithe. 

There is the guilting.  Telling someone they are robbing God if they don't tithe.

And since the Word tells us that tithing has been done away with anyway, any pastor or teacher that preaches/teaches their members to tithe is preaching his own opinion and not doctrine supported by Scripture.

 

The Bible does not say that "tithing" has been done away with.

 

Like I said, New Testament giving was WAY WAY WAY above 10%.  It was most of what people made.  They sent TONS of money and help to Paul and others...often making all their goods and money in a pile owned by the whole church.   So, really, to teach congregations that they should start at 10% (being a Scriptural principal) is the least God asks of us.

 

Would it make you feel better if we guilted our churches into making all things common to all men?  Or giving our last mites?

 

Anyway, my husband doesn't preach on it much, but when he does, he reminds people that it is for God, not him, and that God will richly bless anyone who gives to Him by faith.  And that 10% is the example to follow throughout the entire Bible.  

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