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Standing Firm In Christ

At The Request Of The Ohio Patriot...

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OK, didn't know you were typing while I was.

 

From what you indicated above: it wasn't for not tithing, it was for a perceived undermining of the church's teaching.

 

Not stating what degree of propriety may exist in the action but the motive does not seem to be your level of giving.  Really a different subject.

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The pastor was aware of my stance for four months prior to our being voted out of fellowship, yet not once did he call or even knock on our door to tell us we needed to talk. 

Scripture tells us that if one is overtaken in a fault, those that are spiritual are to restore such an one in the spirit of meekness.  The Church believed us to be overtaken in a fault and yet made no attempt whatsoever to restore us to fellowship.

So, was the message they sent one that conveyed that there really were no spiritual members of that Church, not even the pastor?

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The last service we attended at that church was on May 20, 2012.  The topic was TITHING....and the Scripture reference was Malachi 3:8-10.  After 6 years of being told that we were "cursed" if we didn't tithe, we decided to not return to that church until the pastor had moved to FL to become an associate pastor at an IFB church there.  We attended a Southern Baptist church down the street, but they started using an MV and were holding hands with the Roman Catholic Church. 

 

The church had 4 months to contact us.  They knew where we lived, our email address and phone number.  NOBODY from that church said a word and we were not even aware that they believed we were in error. We were not secretive about our beliefs.  So they had no excuse not to contact us.  If what we were posting on FB offended them, then they should have contacted us and confronted us.  But they did nothing but kept silent for 4 months.  It was only after we contacted them by email did they break their silence.  They had a "secret" meeting on September 24, 2012, and voted us out.  We had NO say in the matter.  We were not informed of such a meeting and therefore could not defend ourselves.  Even convicts in prison are able to defend themselves before a judge and jury.  We didn't have that option.  We have not been to church for over a year.

 

So where does a "secret" meeting fit in with Galatians 6 :1?

 

Galatians 6:1 Brethren, if a man be overtaken in a fault, ye which are spiritual, restore such an one in the spirit of meekness; considering thyself, lest thou also be tempted.

 

We were not "seeking to persuade people contrary to what the church taught"....we always encouraged others to be biblical Bereans....to study the Scriptures.

Edited by LindaR

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Again, I'm not vindicating the action taken -- just saying it would have been more accurate to say you were voted out because they felt you were seeking to persuade people contrary to what the church taught publicly.

 

The above leaves it up to conjecture as to appropriateness, your wording makes it look like those who tithe will chuck you out for giving , say, 7% (as if they know what your income is).

 

Side note, I do know a man who was kicked out of the Lutheran Church 50 years ago for actually not tithing.

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Here, http://www.tithing-russkelly.com/index.html is one theologian that teaches much of what I teach concerning tithing. We do disagree on a few points, but very few.

I have not twisted Scripture at all, I have shown the tithe was for the Old Testament Israelites, and that the only ones who took the tithes to the storehouse were the Levites. And that was not the whole tithe, it was a tithe of the tithe. I have showed that the three tithes were food, not money.

If Paul's "Even so" was speaking of tithes, then it would have been the same tithe the priests who waited at the altar received... A tithe of food, not money... Even so... In the same manner.

Disagree if you will, but the facts are there in Scripture... The Church is not instructed to give, nor to receive, a monetary tithe.

 

I did not say that you twisted anything regarding the scripture I just said I disagree with your interpretation.  I refuted your interpretation using scripture.  Your interpretation and this one "theologian" that you quote are definitely the minority when it comes to this matter.  I am happy that "you" feel you have discovered the truth. 

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Again, I'm not vindicating the action taken -- just saying it would have been more accurate to say you were voted out because they felt you were seeking to persuade people contrary to what the church taught publicly.

 

The above leaves it up to conjecture as to appropriateness, your wording makes it look like those who tithe will chuck you out for giving , say, 7% (as if they know what your income is).

 

Side note, I do know a man who was kicked out of the Lutheran Church 50 years ago for actually not tithing.

The email gave the reason... they said our teaching concerning the tithe was unScriptural.  Yet it is not.

Regardless of the reason, any Church that teaches a doctrine contrary to Scripture, or says God demands this or that, when Scripture has no such mandate, should be called out on its doctrinal beliefs.  Neither Jesus, nor His Apostles pulled any punches when addressing false doctrine and neither should we.

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The tithe actually was in there. The tithe was food. The second tithe was to be eaten by the tither in the place God chose. That tithe could be sold for money if the destination was too far or the tithe was too heavy to carry.

The first tithe was also food. The Levite could sell back the crops tithe to the farmer, but not the livestock tithe.

The third tithe was also food


So where is the Scripture that says God amended His Holy tithe to be a tithe of money? ...drum roll... Oh, that's right... There is none.

 

Food and what people possessed was currency in this day....

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I did not say that you twisted anything regarding the scripture I just said I disagree with your interpretation.  I refuted your interpretation using scripture.  Your interpretation and this one "theologian" that you quote are definitely the minority when it comes to this matter.  I am happy that "you" feel you have discovered the truth. 

Where did you refute my interpretation using Scripture?  I haven't seen any refutation.

I don't just "feel" I have discovered the truth.  I "know" I have.

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Concerning the abolishing of the ordinances, Russell Kelly writes:
 

Ephesians 2:12-16 Abolished Law Ordinances

Eph. 2:12 That at that time you were without Christ, being aliens from the commonwealth of Israel, and strangers from the covenants of promise, having no hope, and without God in the world.

Eph. 2:13 But now, in Christ Jesus, you who sometimes were far off are made near by the blood of Christ.

Eph. 2:14 For he is our peace, who has made both one, and has broken down the middle wall of partition between us--

Eph. 2:15 Having abolished in his flesh the enmity, even the law of commandments contained in ordinances, to make in himself of two one new man, so making peace.

Eph. 2:16 And that he might reconcile both to God in one body by the cross, having slain the enmity thereby.

Concerning the abolishment of Mosaic Law ordinances, including tithing, Ephesians, chapter two clearly teaches:

One: Gentiles had been far off from God (vv. 11-12).

Two: The blood of Christ brought them near (v. 13). As believer-priests, they could "come near" and approach God directly.

Three: Christ made Jew and Gentile one (v. 14).

Four: However, he did not make us one by forcing Gentiles to observe ordinances of the law (v. 14).

Five: Instead, he made us one by breaking down the wall which divided the two groups of believers (v. 14).

Six: The wall which divided us was "the law of commandments contained in ordinances" (v. 15).

Seven: Again, Christ destroyed the separating enmity (v. 16).

The tithing ordinance was one of the many ordinances which made sharp distinctions between Jew and Gentile, and, of necessity, must be abolished if the church were to be united into one spiritual organism. Tithes were food only to be received from Jewish landowners and herdsmen inside the sacred land of Israel. Ordinances defined the daily lives of every Jewish person and ordinances defined everything the priest was and did.

-- http://www.tithing-russkelly.com/id18.html
 

Edited by Standing Firm In Christ

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From an email I received from Matt Costella of the Fundamental Evangelistic Association (Grace Bible Church of Fresno, CA):

 

"We believe God's Word teaches a very clear distinction between Israel and the church. We do not believe that the requirements for Israel in the OT, including "tithing," are mandatory for the church in this age. We believe the New Testament teaches "grace giving" as we have been prospered."  ...Matt Costella

 

I was inquiring what that ministry taught about tithing.  I had been reading Matt Costella's excellent book "Biblical Basics for Believers" and there was a chapter in that book called "New Testament Giving".  In that entire short chapter of 8 pages, there was no mention at all of tithing.

Edited by LindaR

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Food and what people possessed was currency in this day....

No, food was not currency.  I see where food and livestock could be bought with money, but no mention of food being used to buy anything.

They had money in the Bible... even the poor had money.  Every male of the age of 20 or older was required to pay a half shekel of silver for Temple Tax yearly.  That was for rich and poor alike.
A half shekel of silver would be approximately $11 today.  Although $11 isn't much today, I am sure $11 would go pretty far 4000 years ago.

Edited by Standing Firm In Christ

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SFIC,

 

Respectfully, let me say I don't agree with how you describe the church you were attending handled the situation.  

 

I will respect that you hold these beliefs and leave this at I accept we disagree.  

 

I have posted, you have posted.  Let each person here be a Berean and study the situation out themselves, and go to prayer about it.  

Edited by The Ohio Patriot

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I have other things to do but want to make sure that my concern was not misunderstood.

 

I didn't say anything about what you believe, teach, or taught.

I didn't say the church was right or wrong in what they teach, did, or said.

 

My concern was your statement that you were shown the door for not tithing (your personal giving level being too low in their eyes).

Everything that has been stated since then pointed to a response in conjunction with actions taken (verbal,physical,or otherwise) or alleged or suspected to have been taken by you --- NOT because of your actual monetary gifts in relationship to actual monetary gains.

 

You did not say anything above to validate the statement you made about being "churched" for  not tithing, but rather for  your beliefs on the subject or perhaps your dissemination of the same.

 

This has nothing to do with whether the church was right or did things in a proper manner -- rather, a misleading statement (whether intended or not) on your part.

 

The first question on it was because I didn't know, the follow up was to call it to your attention because many time the transition from head to keyboard loses what we intend to convey.

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Prior to our being voted out, I was confronted by the pastor, albeit during a time of grief, (my oldest brother was dying three states away) and my pastor told me that I needed to start tithing... Telling me he didn't care if it meant taking away from needed grocery money.

I did not have time to talk with him about it then, as I said, I had a brother dying. But, he was wrong. God never instructed the Church to tithe money, and we are not to take away from family needs to give to the Church. Paul said if we don't provide for those of our household we are worse than an infidel and have also denied the faith.

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I just went back and read the email from the Church. Here is the reason they voted us out...

"Because of your relentless actions of the past four months and your UN-Christ like attitude and your public display of your disagreement with Scriptural tithing for Christians,"

The fact is, I was relentless is spreading the Truth. I want all to know what the Word of God says concerning God's Holy tithe.

UN-Christ like attitude? Why? For speaking out against false doctrine? I reckon the Church would have seen Paul, or even Jesus Himself as Un-Christ like for their teaching against false doctrine.

My public display of my disagreement with Scriptural tithing for Christians. Funny, they could not produce one iota of Scripture that says Christians are to tithe yet claim that it is Scriptural.

I have yet to see any Scripture that tells Christians they are to tithe... from that Church or anyone else.

Truth be known, it was the Church that was showing the UN-Christ like attitude. At least Christ dialogued with those that opposed Him face to face.
And as far as disagreement with the Scriptural tithe for Christians, it was the Church that was disagreeing with Scripture.

Edited by Standing Firm In Christ

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Proverbs 6:16-19 speaks of one who sows discord among brethren.
from what you have described, this seems the likely reason.

If you have problem with something being taught in your church, there are proper ways to deal with that.
If these ways fail, then you are to separate, not to try to influence other church members in an unbiblical fashion, even if your position is right.

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Here is a testimony from a brother in Christ.  He and his wife were faithful tithers for years.  With his permission, I will share his testimony.

 

“We tithed, and did it gladly...out of a cheerful heart. We believed so firmly in tithing, that my family went without things that we needed because we tithed. We were so set on giving the Lord our tithes, that we amassed huge credit card debt; we couldn't afford to buy the things that were absolutely needful, so we paid for them with credit cards. Of course, this only got us even deeper into debt.

 

We had always heard the testimonies of how God supplied for those who tithed, and we kept waiting on God to pour out His blessings on us because we were faithful tithers. We heard how God would keep "the devourer" away from us because we tithed, but every aspect of our life seemed to be getting devoured...all while we tithed.

 

However, during that time, our family had multiple hospital stays. I never had any time with my family. We lived on the edge of bankruptcy. We had car troubles, housing problems, financial troubles, and health troubles...all while we were tithing. This went on for several years, and there was never any reprieve.

 

We never received that miracle "check in the mail" that so many testify of, no one ever offered us any help, and our situation only got worse...all while we tithed.

 

We eventually quit tithing after all of those years, and started giving just what we believed the New Testament teaches Christians to give...as the Lord has prospered you, and as we purpose in our heart. It's been a long and hard road, but we are finally starting to see some hope. We do give, but only as the New Testament tells us to, and we have seen God work mightily in our situation since we started practicing New Testament giving.”

Edited by LindaR

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TITHE - SMITHE

 

It is obvious you don't want to tithe SFIC. It is also obvious that it is not required for us now.

What is also obvious is the disregard for our Lord's clear teaching numerous times to give all to the Lord (clearly laid out as the poor of the church, the pastors and laborers for the Gospel, the WORK of the ministry, the poor on the street, etc.. Having food and raiment, therewith we should be content).

 

I've SAY it before and I will SAID it again...if we walk in the Spirit and live only for the Lord, we will WANT nothing other than the necessities of life. So all other funds we have should be going to the above as Christ taught us plainly throughout the Gospels and the Apostles afterward.

 

Yea, we must pay our bills, yes we should provide inheritance for our children...But nowhere will you find teaching that we should buy OURSELVES, cars, gadgets, toys or anything we don't need just to spend time away from the study of the Word and work of the Gospel.

 

Can I get an amen?

 

PS: all I need to do now is truly walk in the Spirit.

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Proverbs 6:16-19 speaks of one who sows discord among brethren.
from what you have described, this seems the likely reason.

If you have problem with something being taught in your church, there are proper ways to deal with that.
If these ways fail, then you are to separate, not to try to influence other church members in an unbiblical fashion, even if your position is right.

2 Timothy 4:2-3 Preach the word; be instant in season, out of season; reprove, rebuke, exhort with all longsuffering and doctrine. For the time will come when they will not endure sound doctrine; but after their own lusts shall they heap to themselves teachers, having itching ears;

Preaching the Word on my Facebook page is not sowing discord.   A pastor preaching false doctrine is sowing discord.

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Here is a testimony from a brother in Christ.  He and his wife were faithful tithers for years.  With his permission, I will share his testimony.

 

“We tithed, and did it gladly...out of a cheerful heart. We believed so firmly in tithing, that my family went without things that we needed because we tithed. We were so set on giving the Lord our tithes, that we amassed huge credit card debt; we couldn't afford to buy the things that were absolutely needful, so we paid for them with credit cards. Of course, this only got us even deeper into debt.

 

We had always heard the testimonies of how God supplied for those who tithed, and we kept waiting on God to pour out His blessings on us because we were faithful tithers. We heard how God would keep "the devourer" away from us because we tithed, but every aspect of our life seemed to be getting devoured...all while we tithed.

 

However, during that time, our family had multiple hospital stays. I never had any time with my family. We lived on the edge of bankruptcy. We had car troubles, housing problems, financial troubles, and health troubles...all while we were tithing. This went on for several years, and there was never any reprieve.

 

We never received that miracle "check in the mail" that so many testify of, no one ever offered us any help, and our situation only got worse...all while we tithed.

 

We eventually quit tithing after all of those years, and started giving just what we believed the New Testament teaches Christians to give...as the Lord has prospered you, and as we purpose in our heart. It's been a long and hard road, but we are finally starting to see some hope. We do give, but only as the New Testament tells us to, and we have seen God work mightily in our situation since we started practicing New Testament giving.”

 

I didn't read this testimony prior to my last post and apologize. This is the ticket and truth IMO. The Lord doesn't want us in debt over an OT principle NA to us now.

He also doesn't want us in debt to buy a bunch of JUNK THAT IS GOING TO BURN BURN BURN either.

 

If we don't have it to give due to necessity that is acceptable unto the Lord. But if we don't have it to give because we WANT something not necessary, that is sin...

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TITHE - SMITHE

 

It is obvious you don't want to tithe SFIC. It is also obvious that it is not required for us now.

What is also obvious is the disregard for our Lord's clear teaching numerous times to give all to the Lord (clearly laid out as the poor of the church, the pastors and laborers for the Gospel, the WORK of the ministry, the poor on the street, etc.. Having food and raiment, therewith we should be content).

 

I've SAY it before and I will SAID it again...if we walk in the Spirit and live only for the Lord, we will WANT nothing other than the necessities of life. So all other funds we have should be going to the above as Christ taught us plainly throughout the Gospels and the Apostles afterward.

 

Yea, we must pay our bills, yes we should provide inheritance for our children...But nowhere will you find teaching that we should buy OURSELVES, cars, gadgets, toys or anything we don't need just to spend time away from the study of the Word and work of the Gospel.

 

Can I get an amen?

 

PS: all I need to do now is truly walk in the Spirit.

Hi wretched,

You have falsely misrepresented my character.  I have never disregarded anything taught for the Church by our Lord and Saviour.

I have consistently given Scripture to support my stance and beliefs.

Edited by Standing Firm In Christ

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Hi wretched,

You have falsely misrepresented my character.  I have never disregarded anything taught for the Church by our Lord and Saviour.

I have consistently given Scripture to support my stance and beliefs.

 

Pardon me sir. Did I say you? I meant me actually. Sorry for the confusion.

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