At The Request Of The Ohio Patriot...

[DennisD]

>Nothing whatsoever to do with that word, but everything to do with the Holy Scriptures.

 

And that post over there finishes me up on this topic, I've said everything that needs to be said, & I feel most others have to, & no minds will be changed. And only friction will take place if this keeps going.

 

I think you are wrong that no minds will be changed, thought I'd say it over here too. lol

[Standing Firm In Christ]

Bro. Kelly is an elder in my church   I did want to point out that Bro. Kelly believes that tithing, as commanded of the Jewish people in the Old Testament, differs from what we consider a tithe today. On many occasions, Bro. Kelly has implored the congregation to be cheerful, and sacrificial, givers and has even asked that of us in his Sunday school class. He once admonished us to "give until it hurts". Our church does not teach a literal 10% tithe. My first church (Southern Baptist Convention) did, but no two church elders could agree if it was 10% off your gross or net income. This caused a great bit of confusion.
 
Most of the churches in our area not only teach a literal 10% tithe, but will not allow membership until you agree to having your tithe auto-drafted from your bank account. That, to me, is not scriptural. Giving to the church is, but not under the threat of being disfellowshipped.

brother Kelly is correct. That which is called tithes today doesn't even resemble God's Holy tithe. The tithe being taught today is man's invention. It began in the Roman Catholic religious system and worked its way outward.

The sad thing is, those that teach the monetary tithe ultimately interweave it into the Old Testament tithe... Aa tithe under the Law. They tell the congregation they are robbing God if they don't tithe, and that God will curse their homes, finances, health, jobs, etc., because they don't tithe.

[JimsHelpmeet]

brother Kelly is correct. That which is called tithes today doesn't even resemble God's Holy tithe. The tithe being taught today is man's invention. It began in the Roman Catholic religious system and worked its way outward.

The sad thing is, those that teach the monetary tithe ultimately interweave it into the Old Testament tithe... Aa tithe under the Law. They tell the congregation they are robbing God if they don't tithe, and that God will curse their homes, finances, health, jobs, etc., because they don't tithe.

Our pastor did mention one Wednesday night during adult Bible study that the tithes (or "firstfruits") were food given to the Levitical priesthood. He joked and said since he's sort of like a member of the Levitical priesthood that we should bring him the first tomatoes from our gardens hahaha. So, I took him a sack full of cherry tomatoes from one of my plants and wrote "firstfruits" on the bag. He got the biggest kick out of that. 

[Standing Firm In Christ]

I am in the process of writing my third book and would love to have Brother Kelly write an introduction for it.

I have dialogues with him in the past via email, maybe I will email him with the request before submitting the book to the publishers.

[Standing Firm In Christ]

Our pastor did mention one Wednesday night during adult Bible study that the tithes (or "firstfruits") were food given to the Levitical priesthood. He joked and said since he's sort of like a member of the Levitical priesthood that we should bring him the first tomatoes from our gardens hahaha. So, I took him a sack full of cherry tomatoes from one of my plants and wrote "firstfruits" on the bag. He got the biggest kick out of that.

Pastors can joke. I also joked with my congregation on occasion.

We weren't called into a mule-faced service.

[JimsHelpmeet]

Pastors can joke. I also joked with my congregation on occasion.

We weren't called into a mule-faced service.

Our pastor is smaller in stature and always jokes that when he receives his glorified body, he hopes it's six feet tall lol. I like that our pastor and church elders do have a sense of humor that is clean and appropriate. 

[Standing Firm In Christ]

I am just looking forward to seeing again. Too bad there won't be cars in heaven. Finally able to see good enough to drive and no car to drive. Lol

[JerryNumbers]

I think you are wrong that no minds will be changed, thought I'd say it over here too. lol

 

I hope your right, but its seems they're rather strong on the 10%! 

 

Some even thinks I not even a Baptist or I don't attend church for not believing in tithing. 

[JerryNumbers]

I am just looking forward to seeing again. Too bad there won't be cars in heaven. Finally able to see good enough to drive and no car to drive. Lol

 

I believe the mode of transportation is Heaven will be much better than a worldly car!

 

[JerryNumbers]

If someone believes in a tithe of sorts, whether it's actually 10% or whatever...does anyone think they can give it cheerfully?

 

I was Roman Catholic for several years, never heard of a tithe before.  Now, I have heard of the Catholic "church" requesting monies for those that were divorced and wanted to remarry in the church.  Additionally, they requested money for dead loved ones that were in purgatory to be "expedited" to Heaven...Catholics are weird but never heard of them promoting a tithe of sorts.

 

I wanted to go back to this post, the RCC has invented many ways to squeeze money out of its members. And there's others that do this, tries to shame people, make them feel guilty, so they will give, give, & give. I've seen it with my very own eyes. I've looked into the faces of the elderly who had little money yet had sacrificed to give to their Lord seeing the hurt look in their eyes. This was back in the 90's when I was still an able bodied man still had chicken houses & cattle, back before I was disabled.

 

Baptist calls it tithing, & them there's that group that calls it seed money, neither seems to like for the poor to have grace so they can be a cheerful giver who reality does sacrifice for their Lord ever time they place a money into the collection plate at their local church.

[Standing Firm In Christ]

Jerry, if you were living in Old Testament Israel and disabled, even though tithing was mandatory you would not be required to tithe. Instead you would be allowed to glean from the corners of gardens and, of course, also receive of the third tithe

But I am sure that the Pharisees would try to squeeze something out of you. Remind me of raconteurs back in1930's Chicago. They extorted people out of needed money constantly.

[Standing Firm In Christ]

While the word "tithe" does mean a tenth, we cannot just assume that God accepted a tenth of just anything one wanted to give Him. We must look to the Bible to see what He required as a tithe.

In Genesis 14, the first place tithing is mentioned, Abram tithed of the spoils of war to Melchizedek. (see Hebrews 7:4) Did God require a tithe of the spoils of war? We are not told He did. If He did require a tithe of the spoils of war, something must have changed. For in Numbers 31, God requires far, far less than ten percent of war spoils.

We must also take into account that what Abram tithed was not his own property.   After he successfully defeated the rebellious kings who had pillaged Sodom and taken his nephew and the people of Sodom  captive, Abram was on his way back to Sodom to return the people and the spoils to their rightful owner. 

We read that on his way to return the people and spoils, he met up with Melchizedek.  Melchizedek recognized that God’s blessings were with Abram when he defeated the rebellious kings.  As part of that blessing, Melchizedek gave bread and wine to Melchizedek and his company of servant soldiers. 

The Word of God does not say why, but at this point Abram gave Melchizedek a tithe of all of the spoils that he had recovered from the defeated kings.  There is no indication of a command to tithe in the previous chapters of Genesis, so we cannot say for certainty that Abram tithed because God required it.

Bera, the king of Sodom, spoke with Abram after Abram finished his meeting with Melchizedek.  Bera told Abram to give him the people of Sodom and that Abram could keep the goods that he had recovered for himself.  Abram would have none of it!  He promised God he would not take any of the spoils of war unto himself... meaning he didn't even see them as being his property.   He returned both the people and the property to the rightful owner, so Bera would not have occasion to say he had made Abram rich.

Also consider, Abram's tithe appears to only be a once-in-a-lifetime event. The Bible gives no indication that there was ever another tithe given by Abram/Abraham.

If tithes were mandatory prior to the Mosaic Law, God would have certainly rebuked Jacob when he vowed to give a tenth only upon God meeting certain requirements. One of those requirements was that he return to his father's house in peace... something that would not happen for another 20 years after making the vow.

Then, we come into the Law. Under the Law, the tithe was strictly agricultural; i.e., food and livestock. (see Leviticus 27:30-33) Deuteronomy bears witness to the second and third year tithes being food. (see Deuteronomy 14:22-29) The first tithe can be seen to be food in both the Leviticus passage, (mentioned above) and in 2 Chronicles 31, where the food that was tithed lay in heaps in the streets until king Hezekiah ordered the construction of storehouses to keep the tithes.

Many are under the mistaken impression that the children of Israel were to take their tithes to the storehouse, basing this belief on Malachi 3:8-11.  The truth is, Malachi 3:8-11 is not a rebuke to the Israelites, but rather to the Levites and Priests.

According to Nehemiah 10:37-38, who was to tithe what to where is laid out plainly.  The children of Israel were to take ten percent of their agricultural increase to the Levites.  The priest would be in the Levitical cities when the Levites received the tithe from the children of Israel.  The Levites, in turn, would take ten percent of that which they received from the children of Israel to the storehouse chambers. 

Did you catch that?  The tithe that went to the Temple was not the tithe that the children of Israel were to give… it was the tithe of the Levite that went to the Temple.   This often overlooked truth sheds much light on the tithe spoken of in Malachi’s chastening passage.

Malachi could not have been speaking to the children of Israel when he said, “Bring ye all of the tithes into the storehouse… his contemporary Nehemiah reveals that the children of Israel’s tithe went to the Levite in the Levitical city… not to the storehouse.  What went to the storehouse was the tithe of the tithe.  Just one percent of Israel’s total increase went to the Temple, not ten percent.

Malachi 3:8-11 affirms that it was food that was to be tithed.  One percent of the food increase was taken to the storehouse, by the Levites, in order to have provisions for the Levites and Priests when they ministered in their time frame at the Temple.  The Levites and Priests did not stay at the Temple permanently.  They worked in rotation, any individual Levite did not work more than one to two weeks at the Temple a year.  The remainder of the time, they were in the Levitical cities.

This reveals why the Levites kept ninety percent of the children of Israel’s tithe… so they could be provided for at home when they were not required to work at the Temple.

So again, while the word "tithe" means tenth, we cannot change the elements of the tithe to suit our purposes. God is the authority. He said the tithe was to be food and livestock. He also said it was for a specific people; i.e., the nation of Israel. (see Leviticus 27:34) It was for a specific purpose. (to feed the Levites, the widows, the orphans, and foreigners taking refuge in the land. (see Numbers 18:20-24 & Deuteronomy 14:28-29)
 

Concerning the tithe of flocks and herds, it was not necessarily ten percent of a herders total herd or flock.  The livestock tithe could be a little as five percent of the total.  Let me explain:

Leviticus 27:32 states, “And concerning the tithe of the herd, or of the flock, even of whatsoever passeth under the rod, the tenth shall be holy unto the LORD.”

The tenth to pass under the rod.  The shepherd would count the livestock as they passed one by one under his counting rod.  If he only had ten sheep, the tenth sheep would be the one that was to be tithed.  That would mean he tithed ten percent of his sheep.  But what if he had nineteen sheep?   The tenth sheep counted would be set aside for the tithe, but there would be no twentieth sheep to pull aside for a tithe.  He did not tithe off of the other nine sheep.  One sheep was the tithe for a herder who had nineteen.  This would be a tithe of approximately five percent… not ten.

It must also be noted that Nehemiah 10:37-38 reveals to us that tithes were not firstfruits.  Many pastors will tell their congregation that God’s tithe always should come first and that it should be taken out of the gross rather than the net.  The Bible proves them wrong on both assumptions.

The firstfruits were to be taken by the children of Israel to the priest at the Temple and then they were to take the firstfruits into the storehouse.  But the children of Israel were to take the tithe elsewhere, “to the Levite in the cities of our tillage”.   Tithes and firstfruits were not the same.

Can I prove that tithes were from net and not gross?  Yes.  The farmer was not allowed to harvest the corners of his field, but was to leave that for the poor to gather for themselves.  He was also forbidden to pick up grain from the ground.  That was to be left for the animals.  He did not tithe off of what he did not gather, and yet the whole field was his.  He tithed from the net, not the gross.

[ASongOfDegrees]

STIC, why are you so hung up on this tithing issue? I've never seen a Christian hurt who believes one way or the other concerning tithing.

[Standing Firm In Christ]

Does God want His people deceived? Truth is important. If we don't teach the truth, we teach error. One cannot please God by teaching error.

[Standing Firm In Christ]

Never seen anyone hurt by due to the tithe doctrine being taught incorrectly? Open your eyes, there have been many hurt because of the false teaching. Many in poverty remain in poverty because of bowing to the man-made doctrine of the monetary tithe... While the rich get richer.