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Standing Firm In Christ

At The Request Of The Ohio Patriot...

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In another thread, I gave some Biblical advice to swathdiver concerning his present situation and the thread sort of turned into a tithing thread.  At the suggestion/request of The Ohio Patriot, I have started a new thread on the subject and encourage all to participate.

In the thread, I was accused of twisting Scripture.I have not twisted Scripture at all.

I have given Scripture that clearly shows the tithe was for the children of Israel. ( Leviticus 27:34) do you have Scripture that says it was amended to  included anyone else must pay tithes?

I have Scripture that shows the tithe was to be given to the Levites, the widows of Israel, the orphans of Israel, and foreigners visiting the cities of Israel, ( Numbers 18:21; Deuteronomy 14:28-29) do you have Scripture that says the tithe can be given to anyone who is not a Levite or not living in Israel?

I have Scriptures that tell us the tithe was food, (.leviticus 27:34; Deuteronomy 14:22-29) do you have Scripture that say it was amended to a tithe of money?

I have Scripture... Where is yours? Instead of making claims of someone else 'twisting Scripture,' provide the Scriptures that prove me to be incorrect. Otherwise, it is you who is doing the twisting of Scripture.

By the way, God will not tell swathdiver, or anyone else for that matter, to tithe today. How can I be so sure? Because I have Scripture that assures me of this.

Tithing was an ordinance according to Malachi 3:7. Paul tells both the Saints at Ephesus, and those at Colossae, that the ordinances are no more binding. Abolished, nailed to the cross. (Ephesians 2:14-15; Colossians 2:14)

 

Edited by Standing Firm In Christ

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1 Corinthians 9:13-14  Do ye not know that they which minister about holy things live of the things of the temple? and they which wait at the altar are partakers with the altar?  (14)  Even so hath the Lord ordained that they which preach the gospel should live of the gospel.

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1 Corinthians 9:13-14  Do ye not know that they which minister about holy things live of the things of the temple? and they which wait at the altar are partakers with the altar?  (14)  Even so hath the Lord ordained that they which preach the gospel should live of the gospel.

 

Absolutely. We are further told that our cheerful giving from the heart is what supports these men as well as our brothers/sisters in Christ in need.

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1 Timothy 5:17-18 Let the elders that rule well be counted worthy of double honour, especially they who labour in the word and doctrine. For the scripture saith, Thou shalt not muzzle the ox that treadeth out the corn. And, The labourer is worthy of his reward. 

 

1 Corinthians 9:8-10 Say I these things as a man? or saith not the law the same also? For it is written in the law of Moses, Thou shalt not muzzle the mouth of the ox that treadeth out the corn. Doth God take care for oxen? Or saith he it altogether for our sakes? For our sakes, no doubt, this is written: that he that ploweth should plow in hope; and that he that thresheth in hope should be partaker of his hope. 

 

The Apostle adds to his case by appealing to a higher authority. If his critics accused him of acting on his own prerogative, he asked, “saith not the law the same also?” In other words, does not the Old Testament Law say the same?

 

He thus quotes from De 25:4, “Thou shalt not muzzle the mouth of the ox that treadeth out the corn.” That injunction in the law of Moses was based upon kindness and regard for one’s livestock. He thus asks the question, “Doth God take of oxen?” The answer is obvious as is the implication. If God has concern for brute beasts such as oxen, how much more is He concerned for those who faithfully serve Him? Again, the answer is obvious.

 

Verse 10 might be rendered, ‘Or, is he saying it no doubt for our sakes?’ Paul’s point regarding De 25:4 is that God had not only animals in mind, but them as well. And, thus he comments further, “For our sakes, no doubt, this is written.” Therefore, “he that ploweth should plow in hope; and that he that thresheth in hope should be partaker of his hope.” The simple point is that all workers (beast or man) ought share in the fruit of their toil. He thus adroitly deflected the criticism, ‘the preacher is making too much money.’ 

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1 Corinthians 9:13-14  Do ye not know that they which minister about holy things live of the things of the temple? and they which wait at the altar are partakers with the altar?  (14)  Even so hath the Lord ordained that they which preach the gospel should live of the gospel.

 

I was looking for someone to post that verse. 

First off, I do not believe this was speaking of the tithe of the children of Israel this is in reference to.  How do I know this?  Because according to Nehemiah 10:37-38, only a tithe of a tithe was taken to the Temple.  The Levites took that tithe.  It was only 1% of the children of Israel's produce and livestock that made it to the Temple, not 10%.

Now, if we are to take the "Even so" literally, and say that verse 13 is speaking of tithes, then it stands to reason that only the workers of the Church; i.e., organist, pianist, Teachers, Deacons, etc., would be required to tithe... not the regular Church member that sits on the pew each service.

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In another thread, I gave some Biblical advice to swathdiver concerning his present situation and the thread sort of turned into a tithing thread.  At the suggestion/request of The Ohio Patriot, I have started a new thread on the subject and encourage all to participate.

In the thread, I was accused of twisting Scripture.I have not twisted Scripture at all.

I have given Scripture that clearly shows the tithe was for the children of Israel. ( Leviticus 27:34) do you have Scripture that says it was amended to  included anyone else must pay tithes?

I have Scripture that shows the tithe was to be given to the Levites, the widows of Israel, the orphans of Israel, and foreigners visiting the cities of Israel, ( Numbers 18:21; Deuteronomy 14:28-29) do you have Scripture that says the tithe can be given to anyone who is not a Levite or not living in Israel?

I have Scriptures that tell us the tithe was food, (.leviticus 27:34; Deuteronomy 14:22-29) do you have Scripture that say it was amended to a tithe of money?

I have Scripture... Where is yours? Instead of making claims of someone else 'twisting Scripture,' provide the Scriptures that prove me to be incorrect. Otherwise, it is you who is doing the twisting of Scripture.

By the way, God will not tell swathdiver, or anyone else for that matter, to tithe today. How can I be so sure? Because I have Scripture that assures me of this.

Tithing was an ordinance according to Malachi 3:7. Paul tells both the Saints at Ephesus, and those at Colossae, that the ordinances are no more binding. Abolished, nailed to the cross. (Ephesians 2:14-15; Colossians 2:14)

 

 

Are you implying then that we should not give any offering to the church?

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I was looking for someone to post that verse. 

First off, I do not believe this was speaking of the tithe of the children of Israel this is in reference to.  How do I know this?  Because according to Nehemiah 10:37-38, only a tithe of a tithe was taken to the Temple.  The Levites took that tithe.  It was only 1% of the children of Israel's produce and livestock that made it to the Temple, not 10%.

Now, if we are to take the "Even so" literally, and say that verse 13 is speaking of tithes, then it stands to reason that only the workers of the Church; i.e., organist, pianist, Teachers, Deacons, etc., would be required to tithe... not the regular Church member that sits on the pew each service.

 

So then you are applying Old Testament Law to New Testament teaching?

 

 Perhaps what you believe may have been so had Paul and Jesus reaffirmed this in the New Testament.  Unless you have some teaching in the New Testament that supersedes what Jesus and Paul taught, that the Preachers should be supported by those they preached to, I think the case is closed.

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Are you implying then that we should not give any offering to the church?

That is not what I am saying at all.

The Church has bills that need to be met; i.e., electricity, sanitation, janitorial services, etc..  I contend that the pastor should let the congregation that there are bills that need to be met, or needs elsewhere.  Then allow the congregation to decide for themselves what they want to give.  If God is in the people, the people will support His work without the pastor having to lie to them.  There is not one iota of Scripture that says we are to collect from our people tithes of money.  To preach that we are is to preach something foreign to the Word of God.

What did Jesus tell the Pharisees concerning their teaching for doctrine the commandments of men?  He said that because they taught such, even their worship was in vain.  (Matthew 15:9) If we teach our people that God said something, or that God requires something, we had better make sure that God did... or we are teaching for doctrine the commandments of men.

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That is not what I am saying at all.

The Church has bills that need to be met; i.e., electricity, sanitation, janitorial services, etc..  I contend that the pastor should let the congregation that there are bills that need to be met, or needs elsewhere.  Then allow the congregation to decide for themselves what they want to give.  If God is in the people, the people will support His work without the pastor having to lie to them.  There is not one iota of Scripture that says we are to collect from our people tithes of money.  To preach that we are is to preach something foreign to the Word of God.

What did Jesus tell the Pharisees concerning their teaching for doctrine the commandments of men?  He said that because they taught such, even their worship was in vain.  (Matthew 15:9) If we teach our people that God said something, or that God requires something, we had better make sure that God did... or we are teaching for doctrine the commandments of men.

 

“Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye pay tithe of mint and anise and cummin, and have omitted the weightier matters of the law, judgment, mercy, and faith: these ought ye to have done, and not to leave the other undone.” (Matt 23:23) KJV

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So then you are applying Old Testament Law to New Testament teaching?

 

 Perhaps what you believe may have been so had Paul and Jesus reaffirmed this in the New Testament.  Unless you have some teaching in the New Testament that supersedes what Jesus and Paul taught, that the Preachers should be supported by those they preached to, I think the case is closed.

Was Paul saying that stationary Pastors were to be paid?  I am not so sure.  In Acts 20:33-35, Paul tells the Elders of the Church that they should follow his example and work with their hands.  He seems to be giving the same instruction in 1 Thessalonians 3:12. 

A careful study of "preaching the Gospel" reveals some interesting facts.  Paul and Barnabas were members of a local congregation, yet they were "separated to preach the Gospel"  Jesus went about Preaching the Gospel.  Jesus came Preaching the Gospel.  Paul said in Romans, "How shall they hear except one be sent?" 

I believe when Paul said "they which preach the Gospel should live of the Gospel," he was speaking of traveling ministers like missionaries and evangelists.  And Paul clearly reveals that he was speaking of himself in that passage when he said "but I have used none of these."  Stationary Pastors are not told to preach the Gospel to the Church.  They are told to Preach the Word, and to Feed the flock/Church... but not Preach the Gospel.

Why?  Because the flock/Church has already heard the Gospel, received it and believed it.  They need the milk and meat of the Word to further nurture them. 

 

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“Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye pay tithe of mint and anise and cummin, and have omitted the weightier matters of the law, judgment, mercy, and faith: these ought ye to have done, and not to leave the other undone.” (Matt 23:23) KJV

Jesus was not telling the Church that they should be tithing in Matthew 23:23 or Luke 11:42... He was speaking to a people who were bound by the Old Testament Law... They were required to tithe for they were Israelites.  But notice what they tithed... garden produce... not money.  They were tithing as prescribed by the Law they were bound to, and Jesus commended them for it.

The Church is not under Law, but under Grace.  Romans 6:14

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I think we will clearly have to agree to disagree.  I don't see scripture supporting any of your points, and frankly don't know any Pastor, Theologian, Professor, or really anyone who understands scripture to mean what you are stating.  We are under Grace for Salvation, most assuredly.  Take the 10 Commandments, part of the Law. We are not under law then you decide which ones you want to keep and which to throw away.  This is the same application you are making to the tithe.  

 

Jesus when He summed up the laws made them even stricter, He did not just toss them out.

 

Matthew 5:17-19  Think not that I am come to destroy the law, or the prophets: I am not come to destroy, but to fulfil.  (18)  For verily I say unto you, Till heaven and earth pass, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law, till all be fulfilled.  (19)  Whosoever therefore shall break one of these least commandments, and shall teach men so, he shall be called the least in the kingdom of heaven: but whosoever shall do and teach them, the same shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven.
 
 
 
 
Edited by The Ohio Patriot

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So why is it that the tithe is an ordinance? Who decides what is an ordinance? Furthermore, are all the ordinances done away with? What did Paul say? "Blotting out the handwriting of ordinances that was against us, which was contrary to us, and took it out of the way, nailing it to his cross; And having spoiled principalities and powers, he made a shew of them openly, triumphing over them in it. Let no man therefore judge you in meat, or in drink, or in respect of an holyday, or of the new moon, or of the sabbath days: Which are a shadow of things to come; but the body is of Christ." So according to this passage (I believe that this is on that you referred to before the subject was moved to this thread), the ordinances that were done away with are... (drumroll) meat, drink, holyday, new moon, and Sabbath day, and tithe. O wait! tithes aren't in there.

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I think we will clearly have to agree to disagree. I don't see scripture supporting any of your points, and frankly don't know any Pastor, Theologian, Professor, or really anyone who understands scripture to mean what you are stating. We are under Grace for Salvation, most assuredly. Take the 10 Commandments, part of the Law. We are not under law then you decide which ones you want to keep and which to throw away. This is the same application you are making to the tithe.



Here, http://www.tithing-russkelly.com/index.html is one theologian that teaches much of what I teach concerning tithing. We do disagree on a few points, but very few.

I have not twisted Scripture at all, I have shown the tithe was for the Old Testament Israelites, and that the only ones who took the tithes to the storehouse were the Levites. And that was not the whole tithe, it was a tithe of the tithe. I have showed that the three tithes were food, not money.

If Paul's "Even so" was speaking of tithes, then it would have been the same tithe the priests who waited at the altar received... A tithe of food, not money... Even so... In the same manner.

Disagree if you will, but the facts are there in Scripture... The Church is not instructed to give, nor to receive, a monetary tithe.

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I think SFIC salivates at the mere mention of tithing. I posted this on another forum where he brought this topic up...AGAIN, and then Linda bumped it later on to get it going...AGAIN!

 

Here's the deal as I see it. Give with an cheerful heart unto the Lord! Whether you call it tithes, offerings, donations, gifts, oblations, or anything else...WHO CARES!!!!!!!!!!! Give with a cheerful heart unto the Lord. Whether it be 5%, 10%, 15% or a mixed bag....WHO CARES!!!!!!!!! that is between you and the Lord...Be a cheerful giver unto the Lord!

This constant argument over whether it should be called tithing or not is inane. When we get to Heaven I don't think God is going to care if a generous soul with a right heart called his offering "tithing", but I bet if someone gives all he has as a vain oblation and calls it an offering, God will cast it aside. Isaiah 1:13

 

Arguing about whether it should be called tithing or not is about as useful as arguing about the Gap Theory. Most mature, sincere Christians are probably giving at least 10% or more whether they call it tithes, offerings, gifts, or whatever else. Is God going to look on my offering less than yours because I happen to still use the word "tithe"? If so then I guess the blood of Christ isn't all sufficient (No disrespect intended, I am only making a point).

 

Or perhaps I will get to heaven and God will say, "Here I had 10 crowns for you, but you insisted on calling your offerings "tithes". I am sorry, you can only have 5 crowns". Somehow I don't see that as likely.

 

Perhaps the missionaries that are supported through my tithes and offerings are really only effective with that portion of my money that goes in as offerings and the tithe portion is just wasted away. Again, I don't think that is likely.

Give with a joyful heart unto the Lord and He will accept it whatever you call it. You can call it offerings all you want; if it is offered insincerely, it is of no affect in Heaven.

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So why is it that the tithe is an ordinance? Who decides what is an ordinance? Furthermore, are all the ordinances done away with? What did Paul say? "Blotting out the handwriting of ordinances that was against us, which was contrary to us, and took it out of the way, nailing it to his cross; And having spoiled principalities and powers, he made a shew of them openly, triumphing over them in it. Let no man therefore judge you in meat, or in drink, or in respect of an holyday, or of the new moon, or of the sabbath days: Which are a shadow of things to come; but the body is of Christ." So according to this passage (I believe that this is on that you referred to before the subject was moved to this thread), the ordinances that were done away with are... (drumroll) meat, drink, holyday, new moon, and Sabbath day, and tithe. O wait! tithes aren't in there.


The tithe actually was in there. The tithe was food. The second tithe was to be eaten by the tither in the place God chose. That tithe could be sold for money if the destination was too far or the tithe was too heavy to carry.

The first tithe was also food. The Levite could sell back the crops tithe to the farmer, but not the livestock tithe.

The third tithe was also food


So where is the Scripture that says God amended His Holy tithe to be a tithe of money? ...drum roll... Oh, that's right... There is none.

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You can tell someone they are to tithe, and you are teaching outside of the boundaries of Scripture; I.e., the commandments of men.

You can tell people they are under a curse if they don't tithe, and again, you are teaching outside of the boundaries of Scripture; I.e., the commandments of men.


You can teach them that God requires them to tithe, and again, you are teaching outside of the boundaries of Scripture; I.e., the commandments of men.

You can tell them tithes are ten percent of their monetary income, and once again, you are teaching outside of the boundaries of Scripture; I.e., the commandments of men.



Or, you can tell them what Scripture says.

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My wife and I were kicked out of Church for not tithing. Show me where that action commanded in Scripture?

???????????????

 

Were you pitched out or asked to leave?

 

Was it because you did not tithe or because you taught (in class or privately among church members) against "tithing".

 

My question is because I don't know and yet it makes a BIG difference.

 

If it was for not tithing, they were in the wrong.

 

If it was due to your mouth, then you were deceptive in your post .

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For peacekeeping sake, let's just suppose that the tithe is still required today. Since God said that it was food in the Law, wouldn't it stand to reason that if God wanted it to be anything else other than food, He would have written it in His Word?

The very fact that no such amendment can be found in Scripture should be proof enough that God does not require us to tithe our money. But some do not care for that matter. Some have the attitude that God will accept tithes of anything. If that were the case, why does not Scripture tell stone masons to tithe stone? Why no mention of garments being required to tithe of tailors? Or tent makers to tithe tents?

The first place after the dissension of Law that we can find tithing is after the last book was written... Nearly 500 years after. For more than five hundred years after the resurrection of our Lord and Saviour, tithes were not taught in the Church. It was not until the Catholic Council of Macon convened in 585 A.D., that tithes were first introduced to the church... The Catholic Church invented the doctrine of a monetary tithe, and down through the years, man has been bowing to that Catholic doctrine.

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???????????????

 

Were you pitched out or asked to leave?

 

Was it because you did not tithe or because you taught (in class or privately among church members) against "tithing".

 

My question is because I don't know and yet it makes a BIG difference.

 

If it was for not tithing, they were in the wrong.

 

If it was due to your mouth, then you were deceptive in your post .

 

If the above post is in reference to mine --- you avoided the question.

 

If it was not, will you please answer the question.     (Though I realize it is technically off topic and yet prompted by a previous statement of yours)

SFIC is typing out a reply to your question now. 

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???????????????

 

Were you pitched out or asked to leave?

 

Was it because you did not tithe or because you taught (in class or privately among church members) against "tithing".

 

My question is because I don't know and yet it makes a BIG difference.

 

If it was for not tithing, they were in the wrong.

 

If it was due to your mouth, then you were deceptive in your post .

Hi Old fashioned preacher,

We were not teaching a class in the Church.  Many of the Church members were on my Facebook friends list.  I was posting the truths concerning the tithe on Facebook.  One of the friends was the pianist, who was also the Treasurer of the Church and the wife of the Sunday School Superintendent.

After our postings on Facebook, the Church had a secret meeting, (we were not informed of the meeting beforehand even though we were members of the Church for seven years) and voted us out, sending us an email afterwards to inform us of the Church's decision.  They informed us through email that we could come back to the Church only if we apologized and publicly admitted we were wrong to teach against the monetary tithe.  We will not do that.  Pride has nothing to do with our refusal to recant.  Integrity and Truth do.

edited to add:  The pastor of the Church was also on our Facebook friends list, so it is not like I was going behind the pastor's back.

Edited by Standing Firm In Christ

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