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Dr James Ach

2 Peter 3:9 And Calvinism

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I'm posting part of response from another "Baptist" forum that was left unanswered about 2 Peter 3:9 and the Calvinist mangling of it. Feel free to add to it. Please pardon the Greek, I was dealing with Biblophobes who tried using it against me.

 

Now this verse only says what you say it doesn't say if you read a presuppostional stance into the text. But what does 2 Peter 3:9 actually say?

"The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance."

Now does this verse only mean that God is not willing that ONLY THE ELECT should not perish? That would be impossible because in the very next clause it says "but that all should come to repentance". So the end of the verse is about those who have not came to repentance which means that the subject of this verse are those who are not saved.

And what then does it say about those who have not come to repentance? That the Lord is NOT WILLING (by determination or plan) that ANY should perish"

Now what does Ezekiel 33:11 say? 

" Say unto them, As I live, saith the Lord God, I have no pleasure in the death of the wicked; but that the wicked turn from his way and live: turn ye, turn ye from your evil ways; for why will ye die, O house of Israel?"

Furthermore, if God eternally decreed the damnation of sinners to hell, THEN WHY WAS HELL ONLY ORIGINALLY CREATED FOR THE DEVIL AND HIS ANGELS??

"Then shall he say also unto them on the left hand, Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels" Matt 25:41

Notice that in Isaiah 5:14 Hell hath ENLARGED itself. Hell did not previously have the capacity for lost sinners because that's not who it was made for. Hell had to be enlarged to include judgment on sinners. If hell was for sinners "According to plan", then the Bible would have made it clear that hell was prepared for the devil, his angels, and sinners.

The Calvinist will claim that God made an eternal decree that sinners will be damned, and site verses like "God knows how to deliver the ungodly and reserve the unjust for punishment" but keep in mind that an "eternal decree" is not eternal IF IT WAS MADE IN TIME. The judgment of sinners in hell is not only devoid of any mention in the Bible of being "decreed" but the evidence shows that the door that opened to reserve even Satan in hell was made AFTER CREATION, WITHIN THE CONCEPT OF TIME, and therefore can not possibly be an "eternal" decree.

"For I know the thoughts that I think toward you, saith the LORD, thoughts of peace, and not of evil, to give you an expected end". Was God talking to ONLY the elect? Of course not, ALL ISRAEL was called God's elect (Isaiah 45:4) and they rejected Him:

"Hear, O heavens, and give ear, O earth: for the Lord hath spoken, I have nourished and brought up children, and they have rebelled against me." Isaiah 1:2

"He came unto his own and his own RECEIVED HIM NOT" John 1:11.

Since you just summarily wrote off my explanation of Romans 8, I won't comment further on it because the explanation is valid.

The plain reading of the Bible proves that God never desired nor intended ANYONE to perish. If perish is used in contrast to those who repent, then perish means hell.

Now when we look at the word "ANY" in 2 Peter 3:9, here is how the word tis (enclitic indefinite pronoun) is used elsewhere:

"Therefore if thou bring thy gift to the altar, and there rememberest that thy brother hath ought against thee" Matt 5:23. Does this mean that if your brother has only SOME things against you, or ANYTHING against you?

"And when he was come to the other side into the country of the Gergesenes, there met him two possessed with devils, coming out of the tombs, exceeding fierce, so that no man might pass by that way." Matt 8:28. Does this mean that only SOME MEN were prevented from passing through, or ANY MAN was prevented from passing through?

And tis is in contrast with pas used 714 times in the Bible to describe "all", 140 "all things", 117 "every", 41 "all men".

In the instances where tis is used to describe "certain ones" it is still used as an indefinite pronoun. In 2 Peter 3:9 the "any" that should perish is compared to the "all" that God wants to come to repentance. The text is clear that God is NOT WILLING that the any should perish. That completely annihilates any view that God DETERMINED that sinners end up in hell, while only some end up in heaven.

The sad reality is that many will end up in hell, but the Bible is clear that that was never God's DESIRE, INTENTION or WILL

 

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I'm posting part of response from another "Baptist" forum that was left unanswered about 2 Peter 3:9 and the Calvinist mangling of it. Feel free to add to it. Please pardon the Greek, I was dealing with Biblophobes who tried using it against me.

 

Now this verse only says what you say it doesn't say if you read a presuppostional stance into the text. But what does 2 Peter 3:9 actually say?

"The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance."

Now does this verse only mean that God is not willing that ONLY THE ELECT should not perish? That would be impossible because in the very next clause it says "but that all should come to repentance". So the end of the verse is about those who have not came to repentance which means that the subject of this verse are those who are not saved.

And what then does it say about those who have not come to repentance? That the Lord is NOT WILLING (by determination or plan) that ANY should perish"

Now what does Ezekiel 33:11 say? 

" Say unto them, As I live, saith the Lord God, I have no pleasure in the death of the wicked; but that the wicked turn from his way and live: turn ye, turn ye from your evil ways; for why will ye die, O house of Israel?"

Furthermore, if God eternally decreed the damnation of sinners to hell, THEN WHY WAS HELL ONLY ORIGINALLY CREATED FOR THE DEVIL AND HIS ANGELS??

"Then shall he say also unto them on the left hand, Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels" Matt 25:41

Notice that in Isaiah 5:14 Hell hath ENLARGED itself. Hell did not previously have the capacity for lost sinners because that's not who it was made for. Hell had to be enlarged to include judgment on sinners. If hell was for sinners "According to plan", then the Bible would have made it clear that hell was prepared for the devil, his angels, and sinners.

The Calvinist will claim that God made an eternal decree that sinners will be damned, and site verses like "God knows how to deliver the ungodly and reserve the unjust for punishment" but keep in mind that an "eternal decree" is not eternal IF IT WAS MADE IN TIME. The judgment of sinners in hell is not only devoid of any mention in the Bible of being "decreed" but the evidence shows that the door that opened to reserve even Satan in hell was made AFTER CREATION, WITHIN THE CONCEPT OF TIME, and therefore can not possibly be an "eternal" decree.

"For I know the thoughts that I think toward you, saith the LORD, thoughts of peace, and not of evil, to give you an expected end". Was God talking to ONLY the elect? Of course not, ALL ISRAEL was called God's elect (Isaiah 45:4) and they rejected Him:

"Hear, O heavens, and give ear, O earth: for the Lord hath spoken, I have nourished and brought up children, and they have rebelled against me." Isaiah 1:2

"He came unto his own and his own RECEIVED HIM NOT" John 1:11.

Since you just summarily wrote off my explanation of Romans 8, I won't comment further on it because the explanation is valid.

The plain reading of the Bible proves that God never desired nor intended ANYONE to perish. If perish is used in contrast to those who repent, then perish means hell.

Now when we look at the word "ANY" in 2 Peter 3:9, here is how the word tis (enclitic indefinite pronoun) is used elsewhere:

"Therefore if thou bring thy gift to the altar, and there rememberest that thy brother hath ought against thee" Matt 5:23. Does this mean that if your brother has only SOME things against you, or ANYTHING against you?

"And when he was come to the other side into the country of the Gergesenes, there met him two possessed with devils, coming out of the tombs, exceeding fierce, so that no man might pass by that way." Matt 8:28. Does this mean that only SOME MEN were prevented from passing through, or ANY MAN was prevented from passing through?

And tis is in contrast with pas used 714 times in the Bible to describe "all", 140 "all things", 117 "every", 41 "all men".

In the instances where tis is used to describe "certain ones" it is still used as an indefinite pronoun. In 2 Peter 3:9 the "any" that should perish is compared to the "all" that God wants to come to repentance. The text is clear that God is NOT WILLING that the any should perish. That completely annihilates any view that God DETERMINED that sinners end up in hell, while only some end up in heaven.

The sad reality is that many will end up in hell, but the Bible is clear that that was never God's DESIRE, INTENTION or WILL

Brother, I got destroyed by some of the brethren on this site for using the term "mangle" before when debating pre-trib/post-trib. I hope you fair better.

 

Good post. It all sounds good to me.

 

Predestination simply means that God determined beforehand those whom he knew would get saved would one day be conformed into the image of his dear Son. That is what is predetermined. That we will one day be in the image of Christ. Not whether someone would be saved or not.

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Another thing;

Nowhere does the Bible speak of any individual being "predestined". It's refered to "they", "those", "them", "we", "us" "ye" or "you" (all plural pronouns in the King James) Those who get saved will be conformed to the image of Christ, the process of which is all by God's plan and design. When we arrive in Heaven fully conformed with a glorified body, there will be nothing for us to boast about because it was all done by the design, purpose and power of God. All we "did" was choose life...when we believed on the Lord Jesus Christ.

 

I call heaven and earth to record this day against you, that I have set before you life and death, blessing and cursing: therefore choose life, that both thou and thy seed may live: Deuteronomy 30:19

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