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JimsHelpmeet

Reformed Pastors And The Kjv

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Many times I will download a sermon from the sermonaudio website, usually when they pertain to a topic of interest to me. Many pastors, whose sermons I download, preach from the King James Bible. Some, however, do not and I never know until I begin to listen. In one sermon, pastor Voddie Baucham was preaching from Matthew 7:14 and he said, "and here is where the King James Version says 'strait', but that's incorrect. It should be 'narrow' is the gate". I was shocked. Of course, it also confuses me that Pastor Baucham is a reformed Baptist preacher with Dominionist heresy leanings who pastors a Southern Baptist Convention church, but I digress. 

 

The second example is from a sermon on carnal Christianity I was listening to by Albert Martin. Pastor Martin said in his sermon, "if you're reading a version other than the King James, because we have better translations now taken from newer manuscripts, it says in this verse..." 

 

I can always understand a deviation from the KJV in circles outside of conservative fundamentalist Baptists; however, what is the basis for these reformed Baptist pastors rejecting the King James altogether, and claiming it is not the best version? Is there a history behind this or a doctrinal position they hold to I'm missing? One would think reformed Baptists would be the most strict in an adherence to the KJVO position.

Edited by JimsHelpmeet

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In my experience many reformed theologians are far more aligned with the "original languages" position.
The ones I have known personally have all been studying Greek and Hebrew with the idea of translating for themselves wherever possible.

I will state again, this is in my experience only - I am not suggesting that this is universally the case. It is however what I have seen and heard from men of this doctrine personally.

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I can only give some of what I have seen.

 

I do know that many are coming out of their Bible schools saying, I can read the originals, & the KJ is a very poor translation, & the modern ones are much better. I've noticed that some of them will use more than one modern version in some of their sermons.

 

In the book written by Rick Warren that was so popular he use over 10 different versions, it may have been 13, I'm just not sure, I suppose that way he could find a verse that best fit what he wanted to teach.

 

I have some friends that live up north of me. Their son went to a SBC Bible school just a few years back. I know that while he was attending this school his mother told me that he had said, "I now can read the originals & I think the American standard is the best version." She stated that he studied out of the originals them used them used the ASV when preaching.

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It's the same deception that the serpent pulled on Eve in the Garden of Eden in Genesis 3:4:

 

"And the serpent said unto the woman, Ye shall not surely die:"

 

In todays vernacular, it would be "In the original Hebrew, it doesn't mean "die" ...
 

Edited by irishman

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Many pastors don't bother to study the matter out themselves. They read what others have said about the KJB and MVs and seem to automatically think it must be true so they accept it and parrot it.

 

Prior to the wide availability of the KJB most pastors learned Greek and Hebrew and studied from copies of the "originals" which were often much more readily available than a Bible in English. These men studied and preached from the Greek and Hebrew with a heart set on knowing and preaching the Word of God. That's much different than how many preachers go about it today. In more modern times preachers try to learn the Greek and Hebrew so they can claim to know better than the translators of the KJB, and even MVs. In too many cases, they are pridefully wanting to appear more intelligent, in others they want to put forth their own private interpretation, and along with this are those who want to use their (often rather limited) understanding of Greek and Hebrew to make the text say what they want it to.

 

For lack of knowledge my people are destroyed!

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When I see the word "Reformed" it immediately makes me pause and wonder if the organization is Calvinistic in their theology.  In many cases you find this is the case and they have to change the words in the Bible because the religion of Calvin does can not be proven unless you can change the meaning of many of the words.  I looked up both these Pastors you mention and they clearly state and adhere to Calvinism.  Do not be fooled by this heresy it is very dangerous, as you may well know.

 

Matthew 7:15  Beware of false prophets, which come to you in sheep's clothing, but inwardly they are ravening wolves.
 
Matthew 10:16  Behold, I send you forth as sheep in the midst of wolves: be ye therefore wise as serpents, and harmless as doves.
 

These people are teaching false gospels and the verses above apply to them.

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Many pastors don't bother to study the matter out themselves. They read what others have said about the KJB and MVs and seem to automatically think it must be true so they accept it and parrot it.

 

Prior to the wide availability of the KJB most pastors learned Greek and Hebrew and studied from copies of the "originals" which were often much more readily available than a Bible in English. These men studied and preached from the Greek and Hebrew with a heart set on knowing and preaching the Word of God. That's much different than how many preachers go about it today. In more modern times preachers try to learn the Greek and Hebrew so they can claim to know better than the translators of the KJB, and even MVs. In too many cases, they are pridefully wanting to appear more intelligent, in others they want to put forth their own private interpretation, and along with this are those who want to use their (often rather limited) understanding of Greek and Hebrew to make the text say what they want it to.

 

For lack of knowledge my people are destroyed!

 

The biggest problem is many people, even churches, just pick out a pastor that they enjoy hearing talk, speak, & follow him, ignoring Bible truths.

 

And or like the SBC try to pretend unity with the Calvinist conflict taking place while its tearing them to pieces. A little leavens leavens the whole loaf, yet they're denying this great Bible truth.

 

John, No one studies from the originals, they only study & read copies of copies of copies of copies & so on of the originals, plus they're so far removed from the time it was written, when the original language was written, spoken, & rightly understood that they have a much harder time understanding the originals than we have understanding the KJB.

 

That is they have a much harder time understanding the originals than those who translated the good old KJB that has blessed so many while many of these people says the KJ is full of errors & cannot be trusted, its a very poor translation, & should not be used while many of them mock us for using this great Bible which is God's true Word to mankind.

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When I see the word "Reformed" it immediately makes me pause and wonder if the organization is Calvinistic in their theology.  In many cases you find this is the case and they have to change the words in the Bible because the religion of Calvin does can not be proven unless you can change the meaning of many of the words.  I looked up both these Pastors you mention and they clearly state and adhere to Calvinism.  Do not be fooled by this heresy it is very dangerous, as you may well know.

 

Matthew 7:15  Beware of false prophets, which come to you in sheep's clothing, but inwardly they are ravening wolves.
 
Matthew 10:16  Behold, I send you forth as sheep in the midst of wolves: be ye therefore wise as serpents, and harmless as doves.
 

These people are teaching false gospels and the verses above apply to them.

 

I've been led to believe that if a church has reformed in their name that means they hold to & follow Calvin. However many years back i did not realize that, not until the reformed doctrine started to spread so fast.
 
Perhaps this is just the way I perceive things, but it seems to me false doctrine will spread much faster, & be much more accepting to people than God's truth. Yesterday at Walmart I was speaking to another Independent Baptist pastor. I told him if he would take the name Baptist off of his church, start preaching a false gospel that his church just might start growing quite fast. He agreed with me.

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As has been pointed out here before, there are many who fall under the "Calvinist" umbrella who really aren't followers of Calvin. Most know little of Calvin and a great many hold to something more along the lines of the "Calvinism" Spurgeon went by. Most such don't like the "Calvinist" title because it doesn't fit their beliefs, as most point to the New Testament as their source of believing what they do, and most often it's not in line with everything Calvin said.

 

Some call themselves 1, 2 or 3 point Calvinists, but as has also been pointed out here, there really is no such thing because that's not what Calvin taught.

 

So there are many in Reformed and other churches who are considered "Calvinist" but they really don't fit the definition enough to be that.

 

If I'm not attending a church, I don't concern myself greatly with all of that. I can typically tell the most important things by whether the members are actually born again in Christ and follow Christ or not. This applies to all churches, not just Reformed.

 

However, when it comes to a church I'm going to be attending for a length of time or joining, then I want to know the whole story and be able to ask questions and actually have them answered, with the expectation being they will be in line with Scripture.

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 pastor Voddie Baucham was preaching from Matthew 7:14 and he said, "and here is where the King James Version says 'strait', but that's incorrect. It should be 'narrow' is the gate". 

That would be redundant and not make good grammar. He would leave the verse saying:

 

"Because (narrow) is the gate, and narrow is the way, which leadeth unto life, and few there be that find it".

 

Even though the word "strait" can mean "narrow" in one of it's many definitions it carries a lot of other meanings too which makes it a much richer word to use. It comes from the Latin word "strictus" where we get out word "strict" from.

 

No reason to change it other than just wanting to find a reason to correct the KJV and impress everyone.

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As has been pointed out here before, there are many who fall under the "Calvinist" umbrella who really aren't followers of Calvin. Most know little of Calvin and a great many hold to something more along the lines of the "Calvinism" Spurgeon went by. Most such don't like the "Calvinist" title because it doesn't fit their beliefs, as most point to the New Testament as their source of believing what they do, and most often it's not in line with everything Calvin said.

 

Some call themselves 1, 2 or 3 point Calvinists, but as has also been pointed out here, there really is no such thing because that's not what Calvin taught.

 

So there are many in Reformed and other churches who are considered "Calvinist" but they really don't fit the definition enough to be that.

 

If I'm not attending a church, I don't concern myself greatly with all of that. I can typically tell the most important things by whether the members are actually born again in Christ and follow Christ or not. This applies to all churches, not just Reformed.

 

However, when it comes to a church I'm going to be attending for a length of time or joining, then I want to know the whole story and be able to ask questions and actually have them answered, with the expectation being they will be in line with Scripture.

 

I think you better read that article I posted about Calvin and the Baptists. They fit the Calvinist label they just don't want to be called Calvinist.

 

http://www.biblebelievers.com/Vance4.html

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I think you better read that article I posted about Calvin and the Baptists. They fit the Calvinist label they just don't want to be called Calvinist.

 

http://www.biblebelievers.com/Vance4.html

Yes, there are some who hold to actual "Calvinism" who prefer another name for themselves, but there are also those who get labeled "Calvinist" who do not. It helps if we are careful to actually know which we are dealing with.

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Thanks for the insight, everyone. I tread carefully when listening to Voddie Baucham, because I was aware of his sort of Calvinistic leanings, plus his affiliation with the dominionist organization Vision Forum. I had no idea Albert N. Martin was a Calvinist, though. I wish it was easier to find good Bible preaching for download :( Any suggestions for pastors whose sermons I can download on SermonAudio?

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Some months ago, I was speaking to a pastor who was planning to start a church in the Maritimes. He had been traveling on deputation among churches in eastern Canada. I asked him what issues were affecting the churches there, and he said Calvinism. Apparently everywhere he'd gone, people had brought up the subject and asked him questions of that topic, for it is creeping into the churches out there. He also said that the churches that were accepting reformed doctrine were also lessening their stance on the KJV. He didn't know why, but the two seemed to be linked. Interesting...

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Thanks for the insight, everyone. I tread carefully when listening to Voddie Baucham, because I was aware of his sort of Calvinistic leanings, plus his affiliation with the dominionist organization Vision Forum. I had no idea Albert N. Martin was a Calvinist, though. I wish it was easier to find good Bible preaching for download :( Any suggestions for pastors whose sermons I can download on SermonAudio?

 

Pastor Kevin Folger, Cleveland Baptist Church

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Thanks for the insight, everyone. I tread carefully when listening to Voddie Baucham, because I was aware of his sort of Calvinistic leanings, plus his affiliation with the dominionist organization Vision Forum. I had no idea Albert N. Martin was a Calvinist, though. I wish it was easier to find good Bible preaching for download :( Any suggestions for pastors whose sermons I can download on SermonAudio?

 

I have experienced the same issue with Sermon Audio in the past.  What I actually do is search by Broadcaster, then by Bible, KJV.  Then I look through the list and concentrate on Baptist, and specifically if they are listed as Independent Baptist.  As an example I am looking through this list and I see Bethel Baptist Church Pastor Terry Basham in Lawton, OK,  Next I click on the church and go directly to the About Us/Learn More section and see what the church states about itself.  If this says they are independent Baptist, I then look for the churches website, go to the website look at their doctrinal statement and about the pastor.  If that all checks out I will listen to a sermon and keep in mind Acts 17:11.  

 

I like of course Paul Chappell, Clarence Sexton, Cleveland Baptist Church Kevin Folger (a personal friend), Faith Baptist Church Dr, Marc Monte, Harvest Baptist Temple, James Lewis is another personal friend and great preacher.  Another church and Pastor who I consider a friend a worth listening to who is not on sermon audio is Dr, Wayne Surface, Ohana Baptist Church, Honolulu, Hawaii.  They have audio and other helps on their website.  http://www.obchurch.org/

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Thanks for the insight, everyone. I tread carefully when listening to Voddie Baucham, because I was aware of his sort of Calvinistic leanings, plus his affiliation with the dominionist organization Vision Forum. I had no idea Albert N. Martin was a Calvinist, though. I wish it was easier to find good Bible preaching for download :( Any suggestions for pastors whose sermons I can download on SermonAudio?

 

Pastor Dave Teis, Liberty Baptist Church in Las Vegas, NV.  Search for "experienceliberty" and it should come up as the only result.

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Thanks for the insight, everyone. I tread carefully when listening to Voddie Baucham, because I was aware of his sort of Calvinistic leanings, plus his affiliation with the dominionist organization Vision Forum. I had no idea Albert N. Martin was a Calvinist, though. I wish it was easier to find good Bible preaching for download :( Any suggestions for pastors whose sermons I can download on SermonAudio?

Don't know about sermonaudio, but if you go to http://www.lighthousebaptist.com/media/podcasts/  you can get some of Doug Fisher's preaching, as well as some of his guest preachers.

Mind you, its been a few years since I have been there, and haven't loaded any of his sermons for a while, but as far as I know, they are still sound and solid. And frre to download.

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When these foolish men try to correct God's Word by saying "it really means..." or use different versions then they and the translators, not God, are the authority now.  Discerning Christians know that they're wrong.

 

God said He would preserve his Word and he didn't do it in defunct languages and didn't preserve it in 30 different bible translations that all conflict with each other.  God is not the author of confusion, satan is! 

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Many reformed folks fancy themselves intellectuals. The KJVO position is certainly not the "scholarly" one so you'd be hard pressed to find one that affirms the AV as perfect.

 

They seem to prefer the ESV (Elect Standard Version :coverlaugh: )

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