Jump to content
Online Baptist

New Argument Against Calvinism


Recommended Posts

Your very good at bating people along with name calling.

 

This thread is about arguing against Calvinism. Do you plan to tell us why you disagree with Calvinism? Or do you just plan to continue to try to derail this thread with your personal attacks?

Edited by Auburn88
Link to post
Share on other sites
  • Replies 234
  • Created
  • Last Reply

Top Posters In This Topic

Top Posters In This Topic

Popular Posts

IN a nutshell, this is the basics of Calvinism: TULIP   Total Depravity: that man is so depraved and dead in sin  that he can not even hear the voice or respond to the gospel without God regeneratin

Let's try something different for a moment: Let's look at our agreements on the issue, and see where we go from there.   As I understand, we agree that:   1: Except a man be born again, he cannot

The Word is clear on predestination and God's elect. He knew us in the womb, He knew/knows all born of water and all born of the Spirit before He carved the universe.   We don't understand it fully

Posted Images

  • Advanced Member

The whole point of the thread wasn't about a full scale explanation or debunking of the entire Calvinistic system, although I and others did oblige on explaining some of their points to others who wanted to know some background on it. But that in Calvinism, everything is determined by God in the sense that what is determined is dictated and brought to fruition by God without anyone or anything having the ability to prevent it, even if it means God does so against the choices and wills of men.

 

That being established, if this is true, it presents a conundrum for the Calvinist as detailed in the first post. 

Link to post
Share on other sites
  • Advanced Member

Your very good at bating people along with name calling.

 

According to the Bible a person that believes a lie is in the wrong, & you chose to believe a lie, for the doctrine of Calvin is not in the pages of the Bible. So its clearly a lie, & it is not of God. So your misrepresenting God, trying to convince people to accept a false doctrine. I would not allow this teaching in our church, yet I also know for a fact that our members would not allow it either.

 

I have fully stated my opinion, & you have called me as well as many others that disagrees with you on this issue dishonest, childish & many other names. Nothing good come of debating a person that does these things.

 

Yet I do not expect you to understand.

Your post - to Auburn - is offensive to all of us. You assert that he (& I & others who hold the Reformed faith) are choosing to believe a lie. Not true (of course) - we all believe the Scriptures but disagree on interpretation; we've all got a lot to learn. (And that is not supporting the OP!)

 

Most contributors to the thread, apart from John, have posted in ways that do not contribute to a Scriptural discussion.

 

We do not mind disagreement, but we do look for consistent Scriptural arguments that show an understanding of the opposing position, rather than a superficial attack that only shows your (plural) misunderstanding of the doctrine.

Link to post
Share on other sites
  • Independent Fundamental Baptist

It's a reference to Malachi 1:2-3

 

2“I have loved you,” says the Lord. But you say, “How have you loved us?” “Is not Esau Jacob’s brother?” declares the Lord. “Yet I have loved Jacob 3but Esau I have hated...

 

Malachi is a book in the Old Testament.

Yes, so how can it be a predetermined decree of God in eternity past when that quote actually takes place long after the deaths of both Jacob and Esau?

Edited by ASongOfDegrees
Link to post
Share on other sites
  • Independent Fundamental Baptist

Your post - to Auburn - is offensive to all of us. You assert that he (& I & others who hold the Reformed faith) are choosing to believe a lie. Not true (of course) - we all believe the Scriptures but disagree on interpretation; we've all got a lot to learn. (And that is not supporting the OP!)

 

Most contributors to the thread, apart from John, have posted in ways that do not contribute to a Scriptural discussion.

 

We do not mind disagreement, but we do look for consistent Scriptural arguments that show an understanding of the opposing position, rather than a superficial attack that only shows your (plural) misunderstanding of the doctrine.

 

 

The truth is both cannot be right, one has to be wrong while one has to be right.

 

I would not stand against the TULIP, Calvin's doctrine if I though it was correct, so obliviously I think your wrong, & that I'm right.

 

And its oblivious you think your correct while thinking I'm wrong.

 

By defending the doctrine of Calvin you actually believe that I believe a lie & I do not proclaim God's truths that are inside of the Bible.

 

I'm just being honest & upfront about it, I'm not trying to be a goody good do gooder person who is scared to stand on my beliefs. 

 

Now that is the problem with the SBC, there trying to be goody good do gooders fearing to offend anyone while stating both sides are correct & we can have unity. I refuse to be a coward doing things in that manner.

 

But I will compliment you, as far as I know you have always been upfront on this issue & any other issue we have disagreed on unlike some who takes jab after jab when this subject comes us. For that I respect you, & I respect you for taking a stand on what you believe is correct. But I think your 100% wrong in your stand.

 

But the one your defending at the moment has not acted the least bit like you.

Link to post
Share on other sites
  • Advanced Member

Nothing more can be learned from this thread. It should be closed IMO.

This is the reason that I am advocating for ignoring those who just simply accuse us of being idiots. The purpose of trolling is to not only cause trouble, but to shut down the conversations they don't like, and if I shut it down, I'm giving them what they want.

 

Calvinism is a major issue among the churches right now, and is beginning to infect even some IFB churches, so it needs to be discussed. There are those who are purposely trying to derail conversations about it, and once you start shutting down all the threads that they do this on, it sets a precedent for them to do it everywhere else.

 

Thus we can ignore them, or petition for administrators to remove them. 

Link to post
Share on other sites

When we get to the end of life, or Jesus comes to meet up with His own in the clouds, the only thing that will matter is if we are right in our relationship with God.

 

We all have a death sentence, we all have the opportunity to be saved, and we all will answer for our life and beliefs, or doubts held.

 

So, it matters not what any of us form as an opinion regarding Calvinism.  It is the truth of scripture that matters.  

 

Only those who have been enlightened by the Holy Spirit and have their spiritual eyes open have the spiritual understanding from God necessary to know the truth.  

 

Unsaved individuals cannot know the truth and only God knows an individual heart, but God's children can be known by their fruit or lack thereof.

 

This forum is no longer honoring to God and should be closed to further comments.

Link to post
Share on other sites
  • Independent Fundamental Baptist

All sides of this argument have been putting forth their points for centuries. All sides cite Scripture to support their view. The main disagreement comes down to how the sides interpret the related verses. Men greatly used of God have held to all these sides so it's clear if one has a heart to serve God the Lord can and will use them for His glory and honour no matter which side of this argument they hold to.

 

Is it likely anyone here will say anything new concerning this debate? Will someone here suddenly discover a verse that all others have overlooked which will clear this all up? Are any here who already have studied this out and made their choice as to what they believe about this matter really likely to change their mind now?

 

All of the personal stuff should be left out of these discussions. They are not beneficial to the debate and they are not edifying. If each side simply put forth the Scripture they believe supports their view and let it stand, that should suffice. If anyone undecided were to have questions, that would be a good place for them to raise their questions. All the rabbit trails are unbecoming and lead only to briars.

Interpretation of related verses has nothing to do with it. It comes down to whether you will believe what the scriptures say as they stand in simple English or if you will interject what a man teaches in that particular scripture.

 

The most difficult thing to do is approach a passage of scripture free of the theology that has been pounded into your mind over the years. If we can learn to read the scripture free of this mindset things will become much more clearer.

 

I gave an example in Acts 13:48. Most, if not all, people will read that verse with a preconceived mindset that the ordination which takes place in that verse occurred in eternity past. But there is nothing in the verse that suggests that. A good lawyer could beat that belief in court by simply asking for proof within the passage as to when the ordination to place. This is why it's important to read a verse as is in a passage free of all theological leanings. We are suppose to build our theology on scripture not the other way around. Unfortunately, this is the way most Calvinists (or Reformed) do it.

Link to post
Share on other sites
  • Independent Fundamental Baptist

Interpretation of related verses has nothing to do with it. It comes down to whether you will believe what the scriptures say as they stand in simple English or if you will interject what a man teaches in that particular scripture.

 

The most difficult thing to do is approach a passage of scripture free of the theology that has been pounded into your mind over the years. If we can learn to read the scripture free of this mindset things will become much more clearer.

 

I gave an example in Acts 13:48. Most, if not all, people will read that verse with a preconceived mindset that the ordination which takes place in that verse occurred in eternity past. But there is nothing in the verse that suggests that. A good lawyer could beat that belief in court by simply asking for proof within the passage as to when the ordination to place. This is why it's important to read a verse as is in a passage free of all theological leanings. We are suppose to build our theology on scripture not the other way around. Unfortunately, this is the way most Calvinists (or Reformed) do it.

Interpretation has a great deal to do with it. For centuries, including centuries before Calvin, men have interpreted the corresponding verses differently. Whitefield and Wesley worked together and were mightily used of God yet they both held to different interpretations of these verses. The same could be said for countless others.

Link to post
Share on other sites
  • Advanced Member

When we get to the end of life, or Jesus comes to meet up with His own in the clouds, the only thing that will matter is if we are right in our relationship with God.

 

We all have a death sentence, we all have the opportunity to be saved, and we all will answer for our life and beliefs, or doubts held.

 

So, it matters not what any of us form as an opinion regarding Calvinism.  It is the truth of scripture that matters.  

 

Only those who have been enlightened by the Holy Spirit and have their spiritual eyes open have the spiritual understanding from God necessary to know the truth.  

 

Unsaved individuals cannot know the truth and only God knows an individual heart, but God's children can be known by their fruit or lack thereof.

 

This forum is no longer honoring to God and should be closed to further comments.

At some point I am going to post another thread on why it matters. Although what you said was true, until we get there, we are to earnestly contend for the faith. Not only does Calvinism demean the gospel, but it discourages soul winning. If the only people that have a chance to get saved are the elect, then why even bother witnessing? That is the result of what happens in Calvinistic systems. They claim to be evangelistic, but they turn into a lifestyle evangelistic church instead of a confrontational personal soul winning church and therefore less people get saved. So it IS important.

Link to post
Share on other sites
  • Advanced Member

At some point I am going to post another thread on why it matters. Although what you said was true, until we get there, we are to earnestly contend for the faith. Not only does Calvinism demean the gospel, but it discourages soul winning. If the only people that have a chance to get saved are the elect, then why even bother witnessing? That is the result of what happens in Calvinistic systems. They claim to be evangelistic, but they turn into a lifestyle evangelistic church instead of a confrontational personal soul winning church and therefore less people get saved. So it IS important.

 

A foolish post.

 

Most of the great soul winners in the past have been what you call Calvinists.

Link to post
Share on other sites
  • Advanced Member

A foolish post.

 

Most of the great soul winners in the past have been what you call Calvinists.

Thanks for your kind words about my post.

 

Calvinism was still being debated and devoloped among those who were ALREADY soul winners before they adopted Calvinism. And the fact that Calvinists always refer to ministries that are hundreds of years old as evidence that Calvinists are evangelistic should tell everyone something.

Edited by Dr James Ach
Link to post
Share on other sites
  • Independent Fundamental Baptist

Interpretation has a great deal to do with it. For centuries, including centuries before Calvin, men have interpreted the corresponding verses differently. Whitefield and Wesley worked together and were mightily used of God yet they both held to different interpretations of these verses. The same could be said for countless others.

John, I don't think you are getting what I'm saying. Maybe I should have been clearer in my use of the word "interpretation".

 

Today, you hear people say "that's your interpretation" whenever you quote the bible on a subject. In other words, that the bible can be interpreted in many different ways and they all can be valid. But the truth is if you just simply read the bible following the grammatical laws of English you will come up with the true meaning of the scripture. There is only one true "interpretation" and that is what the bible SAYS.

 

Both Wesley and Whitefield can't be right when they disagree on something.

 

The old saying is:

 

There is only one interpretation, but many applications.

Link to post
Share on other sites
  • Independent Fundamental Baptist

At some point I am going to post another thread on why it matters. Although what you said was true, until we get there, we are to earnestly contend for the faith. Not only does Calvinism demean the gospel, but it discourages soul winning. If the only people that have a chance to get saved are the elect, then why even bother witnessing? That is the result of what happens in Calvinistic systems. They claim to be evangelistic, but they turn into a lifestyle evangelistic church instead of a confrontational personal soul winning church and therefore less people get saved. So it IS important.

This is part of the problem, we make statements that aren't in agreement with reality.

 

Read some of the history of missions and evangelism and "Calvinists" were in the forefront. Spurgeon, Edwards, Whitefield and so many others were "Calvinist" and they were also great soul winners. The most soul winningest church in this general area is a "Calvinist" church. They are continually door knocking, going out to events passing out tracts, presenting the Gospel, going around town and other areas inviting folks to Christ and church, etc.

 

No doubt, there are some "Calvinists" out there who hold to the idea that no soul winning is necessary. Unfortunately, the same is true among many non-Calvinists.

 

We do far better to simply put forth the Scripture pertaining to why some hold to "Calvinism" and some don't, and leave the side issues, rabbit trails and accusations out of the discussion. The arguments of both sides are weakened when all these other things are dumped into the discussion because it seems like the shotgun approach, giving the impression there is no way to hit their point with a bullet so they shoot out everything possible hoping something will hit for someone.

 

What saith the Word? That should be our focus.

Link to post
Share on other sites
  • Independent Fundamental Baptist

John, I don't think you are getting what I'm saying. Maybe I should have been clearer in my use of the word "interpretation".

 

Today, you hear people say "that's your interpretation" whenever you quote the bible on a subject. In other words, that the bible can be interpreted in many different ways and they all can be valid. But the truth is if you just simply read the bible following the grammatical laws of English you will come up with the true meaning of the scripture. There is only one true "interpretation" and that is what the bible SAYS.

 

Both Wesley and Whitefield can't be right when they disagree on something.

 

The old saying is:

 

There is only one interpretation, but many applications.

I agree, only one interpretation can be right, but greater minds than ours have battled over this for more centuries than I can count. No doubt, Wesley and Whitefield couldn't both be right on this topic, yet they were willing to work together based upon their common salvation and the Lord used them both mightily.

 

There are some who view this issue differently that we know are our brothers/sisters in Christ and we can stand in Christ with them, yet there are also some who make this such an overwhelming issue, or take their side to an extreme, and there can be no getting along there.

Link to post
Share on other sites
  • Independent Fundamental Baptist

At some point I am going to post another thread on why it matters. Although what you said was true, until we get there, we are to earnestly contend for the faith. Not only does Calvinism demean the gospel, but it discourages soul winning. If the only people that have a chance to get saved are the elect, then why even bother witnessing? That is the result of what happens in Calvinistic systems. They claim to be evangelistic, but they turn into a lifestyle evangelistic church instead of a confrontational personal soul winning church and therefore less people get saved. So it IS important.

 

If only as the Calvinist implies the "elect" are saved (this would not make God a very loving God) then it seems to me having His Son die on the cross would be a futile endeavor.  Why would Jesus need to go to the Cross if God has already predestined who is going to Heaven.  To forgive the sins of those who are already predestined to go to heaven?

 

Romans 6:23  For the wages of sin is death; but the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord.
Link to post
Share on other sites
  • Independent Fundamental Baptist

Thanks for your kind words about my post.

 

Calvinism was still being debated and devoloped among those who were ALREADY soul winners before they adopted Calvinism. And the fact that Calvinists always refer to ministries that are hundreds of years old as evidence that Calvinists are evangelistic should tell everyone something.

You are spot on. 

 

Again, if anyone hasn't read Laurence Vance's excerpt of Calvinism and Baptists they really should. The Calvinists of today are nothing like the Calvinists of the past. No more than a member of the Salvation Army is like a member of the Salvation Army of the past.

 

Their heresy has taken its toll.

Edited by ASongOfDegrees
Link to post
Share on other sites
  • Advanced Member

The majority of those few Calvinistic churches that go door to door were not originally Calvinist. Bob Jones University USED to produce soul winning Baptist churches, but was not Calvinist until years later. Once people start realizing the implications of Calvinism as they learn all 5 points, they stop soul winning or reject Calvinism. Once a person gets in their head, "Why am I spending 2 hours talking to a person about the gospel who might not be elected? I'll just wait for God to lead me to someone that is", the soul winning gets diminished. I have seen this happen to NUMEROUS Calvinist churches.

Link to post
Share on other sites
  • Independent Fundamental Baptist

At some point I am going to post another thread on why it matters. Although what you said was true, until we get there, we are to earnestly contend for the faith. Not only does Calvinism demean the gospel, but it discourages soul winning. If the only people that have a chance to get saved are the elect, then why even bother witnessing? That is the result of what happens in Calvinistic systems. They claim to be evangelistic, but they turn into a lifestyle evangelistic church instead of a confrontational personal soul winning church and therefore less people get saved. So it IS important.

I am no calvinist.....

but I have known some who were great soulwinners.

it is my opinion that they do so because they misunderstand the theory behind cavinism, but it is nonetheless a fact that not all cavinist churches are as you describe.
the trouble with generalised statements I guess.

In theory, if God has determined absolutely who will be saved and who will not, then there is no purpose to witnessing. Whether they do or not will not affect God's plans.
Many Calvinist find ways to explain away that fact and DO go about actively soulwinning.

edited to say that half a dozen posts happened between me starting and then finishing my post......... :D Edited by DaveW
Link to post
Share on other sites
  • Independent Fundamental Baptist

I am no calvinist.....

but I have known some who were great soulwinners.

it is my opinion that they do so because they misunderstand the theory behind cavinism, but it is nonetheless a fact that not all cavinist churches are as you describe.
the trouble with generalised statements I guess.

In theory, if God has determined absolutely who will be saved and who will not, then there is no purpose to witnessing. Whether they do or not will not affect God's plans.
Many Calvinist find ways to explain away that fact and DO go about actively soulwinning.

The GARB churches are Calvinist in doctrine and some do soul win occasionally. I was a member of one for a while. I would go soul winning with another member who was a missionary evangelist within the church and we would bring another brother from a different GARB church along with us. We really were the only ones who went though. Not once did the pastor or any of the deacons go with us. We did convince the pastor to put up some gospel tract racks around the area that promoted his church yet I had to pay for the tracks out of my own pocket. 

 

Neither I nor my missionary evangelist friend attend GARB churches anymore and that church doesn't do any soul winning now nor even give altar calls. I don't know if the heresy of Calvinism can be totally blamed for this apathy but it sure didn't help.

Link to post
Share on other sites
  • Independent Fundamental Baptist

I am no calvinist.....

but I have known some who were great soulwinners.

it is my opinion that they do so because they misunderstand the theory behind cavinism, but it is nonetheless a fact that not all cavinist churches are as you describe.
the trouble with generalised statements I guess.

In theory, if God has determined absolutely who will be saved and who will not, then there is no purpose to witnessing. Whether they do or not will not affect God's plans.
Many Calvinist find ways to explain away that fact and DO go about actively soulwinning.

edited to say that half a dozen posts happened between me starting and then finishing my post......... :D

Spurgeon said he was content to accept the fact that he wasn't as smart as God. Spurgeon simply said that God said we are to witness and He somehow uses this to bring about His perfect will so that's what he did, he didn't have to understand it all.

 

As you point out, not all "Calvinists" are the same, some take different views. We run into trouble when we try telling them what they believe because it depends on what "Calvinism" they are as to what they do and don't believe.

Link to post
Share on other sites
  • Independent Fundamental Baptist

The GARB churches are Calvinist in doctrine and some do soul win occasionally. I was a member of one for a while. I would go soul winning with another member who was a missionary evangelist within the church and we would bring another brother from a different GARB church along with us. We really were the only ones who went though. Not once did the pastor or any of the deacons go with us. We did convince the pastor to put up some gospel tract racks around the area that promoted his church yet I had to pay for the tracks out of my own pocket. 

 

Neither I nor my missionary evangelist friend attend GARB churches anymore and that church doesn't do any soul winning now nor even give altar calls. I don't know if the heresy of Calvinism can be totally blamed for this apathy but it sure didn't help.

What does giving and altar call have to do with it? Many of our churches either don't give altar calls or only do so occasionally. One can be born again in Christ with or without an altar call.

Link to post
Share on other sites
  • Independent Fundamental Baptist

I agree, only one interpretation can be right, but greater minds than ours have battled over this for more centuries than I can count. No doubt, Wesley and Whitefield couldn't both be right on this topic, yet they were willing to work together based upon their common salvation and the Lord used them both mightily.

 

There are some who view this issue differently that we know are our brothers/sisters in Christ and we can stand in Christ with them, yet there are also some who make this such an overwhelming issue, or take their side to an extreme, and there can be no getting along there.

 

John, You should know this, follow God, keeping to His word, is not about who is the smartest, who has the greatest mind, who is the most intelligent, who knows the most about the Bible, its all about who will submit to His, & God's truth is the most important thing to a follower of Jesus Christ.

 

Ro 1:22 Professing themselves to be wise, they became fools,

 

1Co 1:19 For it is written, I will destroy the wisdom of the wise, and will bring to nothing the understanding of the prudent.
1Co 1:20 Where is the wise? where is the scribe? where is the disputer of this world? hath not God made foolish the wisdom of this world?
1Co 1:21 For after that in the wisdom of God the world by wisdom knew not God, it pleased God by the foolishness of preaching to save them that believe.

 

1Co 1:27 But God hath chosen the foolish things of the world to confound the wise; and God hath chosen the weak things of the world to confound the things which are mighty;

 

Col 2:8 Beware lest any man spoil you through philosophy and vain deceit, after the tradition of men, after the rudiments of the world, and not after Christ.

 

Mt 15:9 But in vain they do worship me, teaching for doctrines the commandments of men.
Mr 7:7 Howbeit in vain do they worship
 
Joh 4:23 But the hour cometh, and now is, when the true worshippers shall worship the Father in spirit and in truth: for the Father seeketh such to worship him.
Joh 4:24 God is a Spirit: and they that worship him must worship him in spirit and in truth.

 

So it matters not what some people taught the past, or even now, nor how smart, wise, intelligent, nor their IQ score, its all about following Jesus.

Link to post
Share on other sites

To all,

 

I'd like to take a minute to apologize for my behavior in this thread. It's never a good idea to let your pride speak for you. I did and caused a trainwreck.

 

To all I have offended, I am truly sorry.

 

I will try to do better in the future.

 

Mike (aka "Auburn88")

Edited by Auburn88
Link to post
Share on other sites
  • Independent Fundamental Baptist

To all,

 

I'd like to take a minute to apologize for my behavior in this thread. It's never a good idea to let your pride speak for you. I did and caused a trainwreck.

 

To all I have offended, I am truly sorry.

 

I will try to do better in the future.

 

Mike (aka "Auburn88")

 

Forgiven, & forgotten to the best of my ability, & I will not bring it up. 

Link to post
Share on other sites
  • Moderators

Let's try something different for a moment: Let's look at our agreements on the issue, and see where we go from there.

 

As I understand, we agree that:

 

1: Except a man be born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God. So, we must be born again.

 

2: God is not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to eternal life. Let's, just for the moment, set aside whether this is ALL or all elect. Let's just go with the verse.

 

3: Jesus has promised "I will never leave thee nor forsake thee if we are are His, He will never leave us, nor forsake us-if saved, we can be secure in that salvation

 

  Now, there are diffeent ways we may understand these verses, between Reformed, Non-Reformed, (we'll leave Calvin and Arminus out of it for the moment), as well as others. Some believe only certain are destined to salvation, others that anyone according to ther decision; some believe we can sin and lose slavation or turn away, and others that we can't ever lose it once we have it, bu we all believe that Jesus has prmised never to leave us or forsake us.  we ALL believe, essentially, these three things, in one form or another.

 

 

So, how about this: Does it matter between Reformed/Non-reformed? Seriously? We know that to be saved, whether because the Lord has elected/pre-destined salvation, or we choose, we must all agree that the path is the same: Whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved. We know we must call, we know we must repent, we know we must admit and seek forgiveness-so does it matter if the Lord MAKES us do it, or we choose to do it, the bottom line is, we MUST do it! If we are to see the kingdom of God, we MUST be born again, born of the flesh and the Spirit.

 

Does it matter if the Lord predestines, or not, if we ALL believe that the scripture makes us accountable to be witnesses of Jesus and His gospel of salvation? We are told to go, so we go, and whatever the mechanism that brings the soul to salvation, does it matter, so long as we are obedient? We do what we are called to do and let the Lord bring the results.

 

Does it matter if we can sin and lose salvation, or walk away? After all if we are HIS then we should be seeking to live a life according to His ways, trusting in Him to take care of our salvation. Not that we go about hoping to maintain our salvation, but if we LIVE in a way that we seek to be honoring and obedient to our Saviour, it should really not matter.

 

I agree this last point stands on shaky ground-I don't intend it to be solid doctrine, but to make a point. IF we live in obedience to God's word as best as we can, seeking His strength, His will, His guidance, through prayer, through the word, through obedience, saved by His grace through faith, why should we spend our time making and arguing the tiny specifics? Obviously we'll never come to an agreement-presonally I find both sides of the argument flawed and incomplete, but both having merit-the problem being, they are men's placing the immortal, omnipotent, eternal things of God into a nice, neat little packet, and I really don't think we can do it.

 

Spurgeon said, (this is not a quote, but the best I remember), essentially that the Bible clearly teaches the sovereignty of God, as well as the accountability of man-things which on this side of Heaven may always seem to be two separate roads, yet which both must join as one at the throne of God in Heaven.  Nowhere does the Bible say we'll have perfect understading of His ways and thoughts-rather, that we will NOT, that it isn't possible, for His thoughts and ways are above our thoughts and ways, as high as the heavens are above the earth. 

 

   So why not just obey the things we know, and leave the rest in God's more-than-capable hands to handle the details?

Link to post
Share on other sites
  • Advanced Member

I hope the positive aspect of the discussion will prevail, despite the attitude of the OP.

 

The arguments against "calvinism" tend to be "if that aspect of calvinism is true then ..... therefore calvinism is false." Such futile arguments are easily rejected from Scripture. Human logic (man's wisdom) can NEVER stand against the Word of God.

 

The proponents of such arguments forget the FIRST principle of calvinism, that Christian doctrine must be wholly derived from Scripture. Scripture commands evangelism & declares the faith comes by hearing the Gospel of Jesus Christ. All Christians must seek to make Christ known. We have many examples of both personal & group evangelism, leading sinners to Christ.

 

If people who claim to be calvinists fail to evangelise, or even deny the command to evangelise, then they do not believe the Bible. That applies to modernists, and those who reject calvinism. The Scripture MUST define & guide us in everything.

 

Our calling as Christians is to make Christ known.

John 30:30 And many other signs truly did Jesus in the presence of his disciples, which are not written in this book:

31 But these are written, that ye might believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God; and that believing ye might have life through his name.

Link to post
Share on other sites
  • Independent Fundamental Baptist

To all,

 

I'd like to take a minute to apologize for my behavior in this thread. It's never a good idea to let your pride speak for you. I did and caused a trainwreck.

 

To all I have offended, I am truly sorry.

 

I will try to do better in the future.

 

Mike (aka "Auburn88")

 

I would apologize to Mike (Auburn88) and say we all need forgiveness and may we move forward in fellowship.

Link to post
Share on other sites
  • Independent Fundamental Baptist

John, You should know this, follow God, keeping to His word, is not about who is the smartest, who has the greatest mind, who is the most intelligent, who knows the most about the Bible, its all about who will submit to His, & God's truth is the most important thing to a follower of Jesus Christ.

 

Ro 1:22 Professing themselves to be wise, they became fools,

 

1Co 1:19 For it is written, I will destroy the wisdom of the wise, and will bring to nothing the understanding of the prudent.
1Co 1:20 Where is the wise? where is the scribe? where is the disputer of this world? hath not God made foolish the wisdom of this world?
1Co 1:21 For after that in the wisdom of God the world by wisdom knew not God, it pleased God by the foolishness of preaching to save them that believe.

 

1Co 1:27 But God hath chosen the foolish things of the world to confound the wise; and God hath chosen the weak things of the world to confound the things which are mighty;

 

Col 2:8 Beware lest any man spoil you through philosophy and vain deceit, after the tradition of men, after the rudiments of the world, and not after Christ.

 

Mt 15:9 But in vain they do worship me, teaching for doctrines the commandments of men.
Mr 7:7 Howbeit in vain do they worship
 
Joh 4:23 But the hour cometh, and now is, when the true worshippers shall worship the Father in spirit and in truth: for the Father seeketh such to worship him.
Joh 4:24 God is a Spirit: and they that worship him must worship him in spirit and in truth.

 

So it matters not what some people taught the past, or even now, nor how smart, wise, intelligent, nor their IQ score, its all about following Jesus.

I agree with all this. Which is my point, some folks have a different understanding of some verses of Scripture. It's not just in this area, but in several others as well. For those who have made up their mind, whatever their position, it's no point in continually going over this again and again because neither one is open to correction or new learning.

 

If there were one, or some, who were not yet decided and seeking to learn about a matter, whether this matter, the end times, spiritual gifts or whatever, then these are good to share with.

Link to post
Share on other sites
  • 3 weeks later...

According to the Westminster Confession of Faith: "NON Elect infants, dying in infancy, are NOT regenerated, and NOT saved by Christ, through the Spirit, who worketh when, and where, and how he pleaseth: so also are all other NON elect persons who are incapable of being outwardly called by the ministry of the Word."

 

If a Calvinist is honest the he or she will have to admit that their system of theology teaches that there are babies in hell.

Do you have a source for this? I'm pretty familiar with the WCF and have never seen this.

Link to post
Share on other sites
  • Independent Fundamental Baptist

Scripture doesn't say there are babies in heaven or hell and neither does Scripture say there are teens or octogenarians in heaven or hell. Does one remain for eternity in the state they were when they died? God doesn't tell us about these matters because it's not for us to know at this time. Why speculate rather than trusting God with the matter?

Link to post
Share on other sites

Join the conversation

You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.
Note: Your post will require moderator approval before it will be visible.

Guest
Reply to this topic...

×   Pasted as rich text.   Paste as plain text instead

  Only 75 emoji are allowed.

×   Your link has been automatically embedded.   Display as a link instead

×   Your previous content has been restored.   Clear editor

×   You cannot paste images directly. Upload or insert images from URL.

  • Recently Browsing   0 members

    No registered users viewing this page.

  • Who's Online   0 Members, 0 Anonymous, 26 Guests (See full list)

    There are no registered users currently online

×
×
  • Create New...