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New Argument Against Calvinism

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  • Advanced Member

Thank you for the correction.

Did you really come up with the idea for the Atomic Bomb! I've been curious about that rumor for years :)

 

Furthermore, I see nothing wrong with Calvin's "tenants" not being in the Bible: He was not a very good landlord of the Scriptures!

Edited by Dr James Ach
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As a newer ( 14 months) IFB member, I'm really enjoying this thread so don't move on yet. I've learned more about Calvinism in this thread than the past year trying to figure it out on my own. Reading actual doctrinal statements on Calvinism is confusing. But to have it explained by followers and verses really helps and I appreciate the IFB's answers with verses also, much appreciated!

 

Now can someone give me a EASY definition of arminianism?

 

Great to hear the discussion has helped you, Lefton!

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  • Independent Fundamental Baptist

Did you really come up with the idea for the Atomic Bomb! I've been curious about that rumor for years :)

 

Furthermore, I see nothing wrong with Calvin's "tenants" not being in the Bible: He was not a very good landlord of the Scriptures!

 

LOL, I needed this laugh before I started this day, thank you!   :clapping:

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 We need to stress who the Gospel is - a command to repent & trust Jesus as LORD & Saviour, with a promise of new life through the Holy Spirit. See Acts 2 & throughout the NT.

It is conditional in the sense that faith is required for salvation. However, though God foresees the future, He does not necessarily ACT based on His foreknowledge.

 

Israel had a specific purpose which was to be a light to the world. They reject it. Then God offered salvation exclusively to the Gentiles (Romans 11) and the attention will go back the Jews during the tribulation. (Matthew 23:39, Romans 11:26, Hosea 3:5, Ezekiel 37)

 

Election is thus DEscriptive of the destiny God has planned for the believer, not PREscriptive where God determines a person to be saved simply because He knows ahead of time that they will choose Him.

W agree God foresees the future. You'll have to expand on "ACT based on His foreknowledge." with Scriptural examples. He knew Adam & Eve would sin, but he still allowed Satan to tempt. Acting on that foreknowledge, he would have not created Satan. Somehow we have a great problem of evil arising from a GOOD creation.

 

Where do you read "Israel had a specific purpose which was to be a light to the world?" And where, "God offered salvation exclusively to the Gentiles?" Certainly NOT Romans 11. Paul turns to the Gentiles when the Jews reject Christ, but he moves on the the synagogue in the next town. The Jews are NEVER excluded from the Gospel. However, under the new covenant, Israel comprises all & only genuine believers, both Jew & Gentile. Jews are welcome.

Rom. 11:23 And they also, if they abide not still in unbelief, shall be grafted in: for God is able to graft them in again.

God hath not cast away his people which he foreknew.....

But what saith the answer of God unto him? I have reserved to myself seven thousand men, who have not bowed the knee to the image of Baal.

Even so then at this present time also there is a remnant according to the election of grace.

 

I usually know (informed foreknowledge) who will be elected locally, so, of course I elected him my choice (usually the best of a bad lot.) In the last 30 years my election has failed.

 

Why would God mislead us by using "election" or "choose" the way it appears in Scripture? And did God choose Israel, knowing that the nation would be obedient to his purposes?

Deut. 7:The Lord did not set his love upon you, nor choose you, because ye were more in number than any people; for ye were the fewest of all people:

But because the Lord loved you, and because he would keep the oath which he had sworn unto your fathers, hath the Lord brought you out with a mighty hand, and redeemed you out of the house of bondmen, from the hand of Pharaoh king of Egypt.

 

Some of these camps on both sides view election as a functional force in salvation, rather than what election really is which is a description of God's choosing a person ahead of time for a specific purpose once that person has come to Christ in faith.

You need to justify that with Scripture.

 

 

To quote the OP:

My theory is that if God forced salvation against our wills, and Jesus affirmed that if any man will do His will he shall KNOW of the doctrine, then would it make sense that God would impose salvation, but not uniformity in doctrine among Calvinists? If God forces salvation, then why wouldn't He logically force ones belief system? If God is the author of sin, He would be the author of heresy as well.

You are not very good at creating straw men, nor even at refuting your own wrong ideas about the belief of others. You can only attack the doctrines nicknamed "calvinism" AFTER you have understood both the tenets, and the underlying Scriptures. Refuting your own silly conclusions is not helpful to your cause.

 

God does not act against our wills but he renews them by his Holy Spirit.

Ezek. 36:24 For I will take you from among the heathen, and gather you out of all countries, and will bring you into your own land.

25 Then will I sprinkle clean water upon you, and ye shall be clean: from all your filthiness, and from all your idols, will I cleanse you.

26 A new heart also will I give you, and a new spirit will I put within you: and I will take away the stony heart out of your flesh, and I will give you an heart of flesh.

27 And I will put my spirit within you, and cause you to walk in my statutes, and ye shall keep my judgments, and do them.

 

Heb. 8:10 For this is the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel after those days, saith the Lord; I will put my laws into their mind, and write them in their hearts: and I will be to them a God, and they shall be to me a people:

11 And they shall not teach every man his neighbour, and every man his brother, saying, Know the Lord: for all shall know me, from the least to the greatest.

 

 

 

 

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Covenanter,

 

And he said, It is a light thing that thou shouldest be my servant to raise up the tribes of Jacob, and to restore the preserved of Israel: I will also give thee for a light to the Gentiles, that thou mayest be my salvation unto the end of the earth" Isaiah 49:6

 

I the Lord have called thee in righteousness, and will hold thine hand, and will keep thee, and give thee for a covenant of the people, for a light of the Gentiles; Isaiah 42:6

 

And I am not saying that a Jew can not be saved during this dispensation, but salvation is not OFFERED to the Jews by specific exclusion which is clearly taught in Romans 11, Acts 18:6, and Acts 28:28.

 

I will respond to the rest later.

Edited by Dr James Ach
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ON second thought, nevermind:

 

"You are not very good at creating straw men, nor even at refuting your own wrong ideas about the belief of others"

 

I've grown weary of these pejorative ad homimen jabs. 

 

If anyone else wants an answer to something Covenanter says, you may repost it, because from here on out, I will not be viewing anything he has to say.

 

If you think I'm an idiot, then talk to yourself.

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  • Independent Fundamental Baptist

Predestined according to foreknowledge.

Whosoever still means whosoever.......

 

The Word is clear on predestination and God's elect. He knew us in the womb, He knew/knows all born of water and all born of the Spirit before He carved the universe.

 

We don't understand it fully and we ain't supposed to understand it yet. But God does clearly refer to all born of the Spirit as His elect, period. Simply because He knew who would be and who would not. He is also clear that He WOULD THAT ALL WERE HIS ELECT.

 

So, whoever this Calvin and Hobbs fella is - he is wrong

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I understand the fall from grace doctrine.

 

I asked about the conditional election. That doesn't sound right.

 

I know I'm covering more than what you asked about, but one needs to study the whole thing out for him self, & if you have not done so I just hope this will help you with that. And I believe that if a person will they will find its whosoever will.

 

One thing to remember, whatever the issue be one needs to gather all verses that may contribute to that issue. Yet your should not let any obscure verse overrule a verse that is very plain, especially when you have many very plain verses that teaches an issue such as who can be saved. For instances, on who can be saved there’s many very plain verses that declares whosoever, all, God wishes that none should perish, that who ever calls on the name of the Lord can be saved. For instants these verses I have previously posted. However these are not the only verses, there’s more, some quite clear, the others not as clear that anyone can be saved.
 
Ac 8:37 And Philip said, If thou believest with all thine heart, thou mayest. And he answered and said, I believe that Jesus Christ is the Son of God.
 
Ac 16:30 And brought them out, and said, Sirs, what must I do to be saved?
Ac 16:31 And they said, Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ, and thou shalt be saved,
 
Ro 5:1 ¶ Therefore being justified by faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ:
Ro 5:2 By whom also we have access by faith into this grace wherein we stand, and rejoice in hope of the glory of God.
 
Ro 10:9 That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved.
Ro 10:10 For with the heart man believeth unto righteousness; and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation.
 
Ro 10:13 For whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved.
 
Heb 7:25 Wherefore he is able also to save them to the uttermost that come unto God by him, seeing he ever liveth to make intercession for them.
 
1Jo 5:1 ¶ Whosoever believeth that Jesus is the Christ is born of God: and every one that loveth him that begat loveth him also that is begotten of him.
 
Ac 10:43 To him give all the prophets witness, that through his name whosoever believeth in him shall receive remission of sins.
 
Ac 2:21 And it shall come to pass, that whosoever shall call on the name of the Lord shall be saved.
 
1Ti 2:4 Who will have all men to be saved, and to come unto the knowledge of the truth.
 
2Pe 3:9 ¶ The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance.
 
Yet on top of that there’s some more thoughts that proves Calvin's doctrine is not true. I want cover all of them, just a few of them.
 
God keeps us saved, we do not keep our self saved by persevering.
 
God gives each person free choice, He makes, forces, no one accept Jesus as Savior forces no one to end up in Hell.
 
The Bible states that who ever finds their self in Hell will not have an excuse. If Calvin's teachings were true, God picked some to be saved, picked other not to be saved, those who wind up in Hell could say, “Its God’s fault, He would not lets us believe on Jesus Christ, Jesus did not die for our sins, but only for those who enter Heaven.” And it would be God’s fault if Calvin was correct, yet we know Calvin is wrong, they who find their self in Hell will have no one to blame but self, & that is because they rejected Jesus.
 
The best way is to study in out for your self, take these points listed below & go to your Bible.  
 
Five Point TULIP doctrine
 
Total depravity (Original Sin)
Unconditional election (God's Election)
Limited atonement (Particular Redemption)
Irresistible grace (Effectual Calling)
Perseverance of the Saints
 
Why is it some hold to this teaching & some do not, I have no answer, yet its also true all of us decide if we accept God's truth or not.
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It is conditional in the sense that faith is required for salvation. However, though God foresees the future, He does not necessarily ACT based on His foreknowledge. Some of these camps on both sides view election as a functional force in salvation, rather than what election really is which is a description of God's choosing a person ahead of time for a specific purpose once that person has come to Christ in faith.

 

Israel had a specific purpose which was to be a light to the world. They reject it. Then God offered salvation exclusively to the Gentiles (Romans 11) and the attention will go back the Jews during the tribulation. (Matthew 23:39, Romans 11:26, Hosea 3:5, Ezekiel 37)

 

Election is thus DEscriptive of the destiny God has planned for the believer, not PREscriptive where God determines a person to be saved simply because He knows ahead of time that they will choose Him.

 

Thanks for the response. I have a question though. God has a plan for each person once they believe and have faith in him, right? Not that he knows WHO will respond and become a believer? But God knows everything so I'm really confused? Wouldn't that belief mean that God knows which people will go to hell and still let them born knowing they will go to hell? That doesn't make sense either.

Or does it mean he knows the plan he has for them once they believe but they choose whether to believe or not and if they don't their life isn't in God's will by their own choosing and will go to hell because of their choice?

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Covenanter,

 

And he said, It is a light thing that thou shouldest be my servant to raise up the tribes of Jacob, and to restore the preserved of Israel: I will also give thee for a light to the Gentiles, that thou mayest be my salvation unto the end of the earth" Isaiah 49:6

 

I the Lord have called thee in righteousness, and will hold thine hand, and will keep thee, and give thee for a covenant of the people, for a light of the Gentiles; Isaiah 42:6

 

And I am not saying that a Jew can not be saved during this dispensation, but salvation is not OFFERED to the Jews by specific exclusion which is clearly taught in Romans 11, Acts 18:6, and Acts 28:28.

 

I will respond to the rest later.

The Isaiah quotes are referring to the LORD Jesus Christ - prophecy.

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ON second thought, nevermind:

 

"You are not very good at creating straw men, nor even at refuting your own wrong ideas about the belief of others"

 

I've grown weary of these pejorative ad homimen jabs. 

 

If anyone else wants an answer to something Covenanter says, you may repost it, because from here on out, I will not be viewing anything he has to say.

 

If you think I'm an idiot, then talk to yourself.

James, the point I am making is that you started the thread with a novel argument against "calvinism."

 

People have been arguing against the Reformed doctrines of grace for over 400 years. Do you consider what will be the Scriptural refutation of your ideas? And before you refute aspects of the doctrine, have you considered whether the aspect you are refuting is what we teach, or is it your own deduction from a misunderstanding of what we teach?

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Thanks for the response. I have a question though. God has a plan for each person once they believe and have faith in him, right? Not that he knows WHO will respond and become a believer? But God knows everything so I'm really confused? Wouldn't that belief mean that God knows which people will go to hell and still let them born knowing they will go to hell? That doesn't make sense either.

Or does it mean he knows the plan he has for them once they believe but they choose whether to believe or not and if they don't their life isn't in God's will by their own choosing and will go to hell because of their choice?

It's kind of like what people refer to as "self fulfilled prophecy". You have an idea of what you believe is going to happen in the future, and then you take your own steps to MAKE it happen.

 

This is what the Calvinist does with election and predestination. They have God FORCING events to happen because He knows them ahead of time, and it's not just forcing the foreknown events, in Calvinism He forces ALL of the events, including sin and heresy.

 

When a person is elected, he is elected to be saved by grace through faith, and then God gives certain gifts to some to edify the body of Christ. Election is like you plan ahead of time what your kids will get if they clean their room. Those who clean their room, get icecream, those who do not get grounded. God may have elected a certain person to become a minister after he gets saved, but if he never comes to Christ, he never receives everything that God had elected him for, including eternal life, and gets permanently grounded.

 

Yes God knows who will end up in hell, but His allowing those to be born is precisely why the Calvinist argument against free moral agency is invalid. God often permits things that He does not desire. As in 2 Peter 3:9, God is not WILLING that any should perish, but He does want all to come to repentance. That some choose not to and reject Him is not His desire, but because His nature demands justice for unpaid debts, the sinner who rejects Christ must pay his own penalty by suffering eternally.

 

The Calvinist system not only has God determining sinners to hell, but also DESIRING their damnation, and that is the core problem with Calvinism because before God was sovereign, He was/is loving. Now a Calvinist will argue that sovereignty is an eternal attribute of God, but the word sovereign means to rule over, God did not rule over anything until creation, and God was love before anything was created. Thus because Gods nature is love, to claim that God desires the damnation of sinners is to defy the nature of God.

Edited by Dr James Ach
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James, the point I am making is that you started the thread with a novel argument against "calvinism."

 

 

You say "novel", I say "blatantly dishonest". Like the Catholics who come to Christian websites to argue against Christianity, those here who are arguing  against Reformed theology must use straw men and outright false claims in order to paint in it the most unflattering and diabolical light possible, because they know that if they were honest about what Reformed theology is and is not, their Finney-ism wouldn't stand a chance.

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You say "novel", I say "blatantly dishonest". Like the Catholics who come to Christian websites to argue against Christianity, those here who are arguing  against Reformed theology must use straw men and outright false claims in order to paint in it the most unflattering and diabolical light possible, because they know that if they were honest about what Reformed theology is and is not, their Finney-ism wouldn't stand a chance.

You can go back to the Baptist Board anytime now.

 

And I'm encouraging everyone else not to engage with these folks because it doesn't matter what the truth is, I'm a little tired of seeing other Christian brothers slandered personally as a premise for debate. The block function is an amazing feature.

Edited by Dr James Ach
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You say "novel", I say "blatantly dishonest". Like the Catholics who come to Christian websites to argue against Christianity, those here who are arguing  against Reformed theology must use straw men and outright false claims in order to paint in it the most unflattering and diabolical light possible, because they know that if they were honest about what Reformed theology is and is not, their Finney-ism wouldn't stand a chance.

I repeat my former offer: please show in my posts, as well as James', where we were blatantly dishonest" in what we said. If I am in error, that's one thing, and if proven in error, I am happy to admit to it and publically so. Blatant dishonety is another thing entirely-where have we lied, willingly and knowingly? Give my examples of the straw men.

 

I ahve replayed all of your posts, showing your unwillingness to actually answer anything with biblical evidence. You compare us to your board of preachers and teachers who question you about what you have taught for the past couple weeks-but I don't see what we are doing here as any different: we lay out scripture showing our point of view, what we believe to be truth, and refuting a reformed position-that is what I refute, not Auburn88-I don't know you from Adam, so how can I direct ad hominem attacks toward you or your character when I don't know them? I refute what I perceive to be an error in doctrine-that's all. And that is all anyone here has asked of you-one can't come into a board like this and just say, essentially, "Nuh-uh, you're wrong, cuz I say so!", which is whay you are doing, my friend. It may not be what you are intending to do, but it is what is coming across to everyone else. So again, I encourage you to give a biblically-based foundation for your position, or relegate yourself to an inactive observer.

 

I have held off saying this until now, because I DON'T want to appear unkind, but there comes a time one must say, "Put up, or shut up."

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You say "novel", I say "blatantly dishonest". Like the Catholics who come to Christian websites to argue against Christianity, those here who are arguing  against Reformed theology must use straw men and outright false claims in order to paint in it the most unflattering and diabolical light possible, because they know that if they were honest about what Reformed theology is and is not, their Finney-ism wouldn't stand a chance.

 

Straw-man, no, yet of course the Calvinist believes the only way we can defend our position is by a straw-man statement, for they refuse the truths that comes forth from the Bible which has been shown under this topic several times

 

I feel free to use that word straw-man, & saying those who hold to Calvin's doctrine refuse Bible truths because I'm doing only that which you just did only using it in a different direction without being sassy or mocking.

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Straw-man, no, yet of course the Calvinist believes the only way we can defend our position is by a straw-man statement, for they refuse the truths that comes forth from the Bible which has been shown under this topic several times

 

I feel free to use that word straw-man, & saying those who hold to Calvin's doctrine refuse Bible truths because I'm doing only that which you just did only using it in a different direction without being sassy or mocking.

 

You see, that's exactly the sort of childishness I'm talking about.

 

We don't see you as "ignoring the truths that  come forth from the Bible". We assume that you're sincere, and that you merely came away from your study of the Bible with a different conclusion than we did and we'd like to discuss it with you.

 

You immediately assume the worst about us, that we know that Reformed theology is Unbiblical, but that we ignore the Bible's teaching so we can hang on to it in spite of what the Bible says.

 

What happened to charity? What happened to giving somebody the benefit of the doubt?

 

This is precisely why I'm so reluctant to talk to you. No matter what I say, you're going to assign some underhanded motive to it.

 

Why can't you give us the same benefit of the doubt we give you and that you would demand  for yourself?

 

Grow up.

Edited by Auburn88
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It is conditional in the sense that faith is required for salvation. 

 

I mentioned in another thread that even our faith that we, of our own free will, place in Christ is a gift of God. Eph. 2:8

 

This is why it is called "the faith of Christ". Gal. 2:16; Phil 3:9  

 

To those willing God gives the faith to believe on his Son.

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I have done a huge amount of study on reformed theology and have discovered a few things:
Those who hold to calvanism are rarely swayed.
Despite what they say Calvins God is not the God described in the Bible.

keeping it simple, the Bible throughout describes men being offered genuine choices, and specifically the Bible is consistent that salvation is offered to all men.
redefine terms all you like but whosoever really does mean absolutely anyone. Election and predestination are clearly subject to God's foreknowledge, and foreknowledge simply means that God knew before.

and there are not only two sides to this argument - anyone who not a calvanist is NOT automatically an arminian.

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You see, that's exactly the sort of childishness I'm talking about.

We don't see you as "ignoring the truths that come forth from the Bible". We assume that you're sincere, and that you merely came away from your study of the Bible with a different conclusion than we did and we'd like to discuss it with you.

You immediately assume the worst about us, that we know that Reformed theology is Unbiblical, but that we ignore the Bible's teaching so we can hang on to it in spite of what the Bible says.

What happened to charity? What happened to giving somebody the benefit of the doubt?

This is precisely why I'm so reluctant to talk to you. No matter what I say, you're going to assign some underhanded motive to it.

Why can't you give us the same benefit of the doubt we give you and that you would demand for yourself?

Grow up.


forgive me if I'm wrong here but wasn't it you that used the phrase "blatantly dishonest"?
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