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New Argument Against Calvinism


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...thus, those who did not obey are not included and "whosoever" doesn't mean everybody.

Now, do you want to debate me or not?


wrong.
whosoever relates to the offer.
The acceptance of the offer is different.
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IN a nutshell, this is the basics of Calvinism: TULIP   Total Depravity: that man is so depraved and dead in sin  that he can not even hear the voice or respond to the gospel without God regeneratin

Let's try something different for a moment: Let's look at our agreements on the issue, and see where we go from there.   As I understand, we agree that:   1: Except a man be born again, he cannot

The Word is clear on predestination and God's elect. He knew us in the womb, He knew/knows all born of water and all born of the Spirit before He carved the universe.   We don't understand it fully

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These are my thoughts on Calvinism for everyone to read.  This was a series of sermons taught by a good IFB Pastor.

 

http://www.onlinebaptist.com/home/blog/49/entry-354-calvinism-a-closer-look-part-1/

 

http://www.onlinebaptist.com/home/blog/49/entry-355-calvinism-a-closer-look-part-2/

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So, are you just going to copy and paste or are you going to try to answer me, yourself?

 

Are you at least going to give credit to the person who did the work?

 

You have posted your thought, now I have posted my thoughts on Calvinism.  I have not debated about what I believe, nor will I.  

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OK. So, Dave and Ukulelemike aren't willing to discuss it. Anybody else?

 

Come on! You mean not one of your wonderful, brilliant Finney-ites wants to put the big, bad, mean ol' Calvinist in his place?

 

If I'm really the moronic heretic you all claim I am, then this should be simple for you.

 

It does not matter what anyone's personal opinion on Calvinism is, yours included.  What matters is what God says in the Bible about Calvinism.  He is the only one all persons will answer to regarding this so it is His Word that matters.

 

 

John 3:16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life. Whosoever means whoever, period.

 

The Bible is the complete word of God for anyone.  2 Peter 3:9 The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance.

 

He is not willing that anyone should perish wanting all to have eternal life, all means all.

 

If you have peace with your understanding of God's word concerning Calvinism and feel confident to stand before God someday to answer for your beliefs then you should have no more questions regarding this and feel no need to debate or argue this issue further.

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You have posted your thought, now I have posted my thoughts on Calvinism.  I have not debated about what I believe, nor will I.  

 

Actually, you didn't post your thoughts. You posted somebody else's work without crediting them, thus allowing people to assume they were your thoughts. That's called plagiarism.

 

But I will say this, plagiarism or not, at least you had the guts to respond. That's a heck of a lot better than I can say for your fellow Finney-ites.

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It does not matter what anyone's personal opinion on Calvinism is, yours included.  What matters is what God says in the Bible about Calvinism.  He is the only one all persons will answer to regarding this so it is His Word that matters.

 

 

John 3:16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life. Whosoever means whoever, period.

 

The Bible is the complete word of God for anyone.  2 Peter 3:9 The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance.

 

He is not willing that anyone should perish wanting all to have eternal life, all means all.

 

If you have peace with your understanding of God's word concerning Calvinism and feel confident to stand before God someday to answer for your beliefs then you should have no more questions regarding this and feel no need to debate or argue this issue further.

 

I don't want to debate because I'm unsure. I want to debate because my beliefs have been deliberately misrepresented by those here who wish to slander those of us who adhere to Reformed theology and I want to set the record straight.

Edited by Auburn88
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Actually, you didn't post your thoughts. You posted somebody else's work without crediting them, thus allowing people to assume they were your thoughts. That's called plagiarism.

 

No, these my exact thought on Calvinism and I am not posting the author due to respect.  I don't mind being attacked but don't wish to have a friend attacked.

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Clearly you did not see that I stated this was a sermon taught by a good IFB Pastor, which I am not. I did not claim the writings as my own only that I completely agree with the content.  

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You see, that's exactly the sort of childishness I'm talking about.

 

We don't see you as "ignoring the truths that  come forth from the Bible". We assume that you're sincere, and that you merely came away from your study of the Bible with a different conclusion than we did and we'd like to discuss it with you.

 

You immediately assume the worst about us, that we know that Reformed theology is Unbiblical, but that we ignore the Bible's teaching so we can hang on to it in spite of what the Bible says.

 

What happened to charity? What happened to giving somebody the benefit of the doubt?

 

This is precisely why I'm so reluctant to talk to you. No matter what I say, you're going to assign some underhanded motive to it.

 

Why can't you give us the same benefit of the doubt we give you and that you would demand  for yourself?

 

Grow up.

 

Yes, I understand you now, you give your self a free pass, doing & saying whatever you wish, yet when someone does as you have done just as I have done.

 

So now I understand, >your really here to fight, & putting down those you disagree with, calling them childish, liars, ignores of the truth, & dishonest.

 

Don't act like Mr. Nice Guy, that does not fit you. Yet I refuse to fall for it, I'm not going to stoop down as you have.

 

And thank you very much for showing your true colors.

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Apparently not to everyone, since he's obviously ignoring me. He calls me "hostile, dishonest, and, frankly, obnoxious", in how I have dealt with him. I kindly referenced ALL of his posts to that point, showing his lack of any scriptural argument on his own behalf, and the fact that he could nothing but disagree, and invited him to repeat the posts where I have been obnoxious, dishonest or hostile to him. Since then, he has ingnored any post I have made, which, frankyl have been few.  So, apparently he really has no desire to actually "debate" anything at all, and, going from his history in the line so far, disrespect and impolite refers to 'disagree with me and expect a scriptural reply."

 

Seriously, someone, anyone, show us ANY of his postings that actually referred to the Bible. Please. I have given scripture, Covenanter has given scripture, Dr. James has given scripture. THIS is debate. What Mr Auburn88 is doing is not debate, and as such, I doubt his sincerity for such.  

 

If he has you on ignore, maybe your post will show up in my post & he will read it.

 

That is the problem with those that follow Calvin, they will always stir things up while claiming to be Mr. Nice Guy.

 

Your probably aware that a big disturbance is taking place in the SBC over this very issue while they're trying to hold everyone together. I think its a big mistake, I feel by doing this in the long run it will bring even more damage to the SBC than it would if they would deal with it right now.

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If he has you on ignore, maybe your post will show up in my post & he will read it.

 

That is the problem with those that follow Calvin, they will always stir things up while claiming to be Mr. Nice Guy.

 

Your probably aware that a big disturbance is taking place in the SBC over this very issue while they're trying to hold everyone together. I think its a big mistake, I feel by doing this in the long run it will bring even more damage to the SBC than it would if they would deal with it right now.

Yes, that's what I figured. I was just hoping maybe someone else would look at my posts and see if I was really being dishonest, hostile and obnoxious. My primary issue has been that he is really acting lke a troll-not a vulgar type but he's stirring up trouble-he acts like he wants to debate, but refuses to do it when challenged. He complains of being disrespected and insulted, then insults and disrespects others. Not sure why anyone's even dealing with him, but that's for eeryone else to decide for themselves.

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Yes, that's what I figured. I was just hoping maybe someone else would look at my posts and see if I was really being dishonest, hostile and obnoxious. My primary issue has been that he is really acting lke a troll-not a vulgar type but he's stirring up trouble-he acts like he wants to debate, but refuses to do it when challenged. He complains of being disrespected and insulted, then insults and disrespects others. Not sure why anyone's even dealing with him, but that's for eeryone else to decide for themselves.

 

Actually, the only person who's even responded is Ohio Patriot. Even though I called him out for plagiarism, plagiarism or not, at least he had the guts to try to engage me. That's a lot better than I can say for you. You were content to just sit back and bad mouth me. And yes, I realize you believe it doesn't really count, since you believe I did it to you.

 

If I'm really the scumbag lowlife you say I am, why don't you be the example for me to follow?

 

Better yet, let's just have it out right now. Keep in mind that I was perfectly willing to accept you as a brother in Christ and extend the liberty to you to disagree over these non-essential doctrines. But you're the ones who repeatedly called us heretics. Just keep that in mind.

 

Let's start with this:

 

According to Acts 13:48, which comes first: belief or ordination to eternal life?

 

I realize you're going to dismiss as mere "prooftexting" but, thanks to the analogy of scripture, I can provide scripture to back this verse up.

Edited by Auburn88
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Actually, the only person who's even responded is Ohio Patriot. Even though I called him out for plagiarism, plagiarism or not, at least he had the guts to try to engage me. That's a lot better than I can say for you. You were content to just sit back and bad mouth me. And yes, I realize you believe it doesn't really count, since you believe I did it to you.

If I'm really the scumbag lowlife you say I am, why don't you be the example for me to follow?

Better yet, let's just have it out right now. Keep in mind that I was perfectly willing to accept you as a brother in Christ and extend the liberty to you to disagree over these non-essential doctrines. But you're the ones who repeatedly called us heretics. Just keep that in mind.

Let's start with this:

According to Acts 13:48, which comes first: belief or ordination to eternal life?

I realize you're going to dismiss as mere "prooftexting" but, thanks to the analogy of scripture, I can provide scripture to back this verse up.


I don't I now if you realise it or not but the tone of your posts is aggressive
And obnoxious.

You have stated several times that you are being treated meanly and unfairly and yet you do that exactly to others here.
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I don't I now if you realise it or not but the tone of your posts is aggressive
And obnoxious.

You have stated several times that you are being treated meanly and unfairly and yet you do that exactly to others here.

Once again, I'm giving you an opportunity to correct me, to go through the scriptures with me, and yet, you insist on just hurling personal jabs.

 

This thread is about arguing against Calvinism. Do you plan to tell me why you disagree with Calvinism, or are you just going to keep on sniping at me?

Edited by Auburn88
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Yes, that's what I figured. I was just hoping maybe someone else would look at my posts and see if I was really being dishonest, hostile and obnoxious. My primary issue has been that he is really acting lke a troll-not a vulgar type but he's stirring up trouble-he acts like he wants to debate, but refuses to do it when challenged. He complains of being disrespected and insulted, then insults and disrespects others. Not sure why anyone's even dealing with him, but that's for eeryone else to decide for themselves.

 

Generally those who hold to Calvin's teachings are trying to gain converts. And when resisted it aggravates them & their tone changes. Plus if you happen to do something they do, your childish, yet they are not. The pot & kettle thing.

 

Plus, everyone needs to go back looking at Auburn88 post, he has offered no verses to back up his belief in at least the last 15 or more post, 3 pages of post, although he says everyone that disagrees with him is wrong.

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Acts 13:48 And when the Gentiles heard this, they were glad, and glorified the word of the Lord: and as many as were ordained to eternal life believed.  

 

The word translated as ordained has the sense of ‘determining’ or ‘choosing.’ The thought could just as accurately be translated, ‘and as many as had chosen eternal life believed.’ There is not predestination or election implied. Rather, the thought simply is that upon hearing the gospel, those who had chosen to receive eternal life in fact believed. There is far more of a ‘whosoever will’ implied than sovereign grace. 

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Acts 13:48 And when the Gentiles heard this, they were glad, and glorified the word of the Lord: and as many as were ordained to eternal life believed.  

 

The word translated as ordained has the sense of ‘determining’ or ‘choosing.’ The thought could just as accurately be translated, ‘and as many as had chosen eternal life believed.’

 

And your evidence for this is...? How do you get that from the text? 

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Generally those who hold to Calvin's teachings are trying to gain converts. And when resisted it aggravates them & their tone changes. Plus if you happen to do something they do, your childish, yet they are not. The pot & kettle thing.

 

Plus, everyone needs to go back looking at Auburn88 post, he has offered no verses to back up his belief in at least the last 15 or more post, 3 pages of post, although he says everyone that disagrees with him is wrong.

 

Once again, I'm giving you every opportunity to correct me and you'd rather just made snide little ad homs.

 

This thread is about arguing against Calvinism. Do you plan to tell us why you disagree with Reformed theology? Or do you just plan to keep on derailing the thread with your little personal vendetta?

 

Incidentally, I find it really interesting that you feign offense at being told you're being dishonest, but then turn around and tell everybody I haven't cited scripture in "fifteen or more posts" when I just cited Acts 13:48 two posts ago.

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Once again, I'm giving you an opportunity to correct me, to go through the scriptures with me, and yet, you insist on just hurling personal jabs.

This thread is about arguing against Calvinism. Do you plan to tell me why you disagree with Calvinism, or are you just going to keep on sniping at me?


it is not a personal jab nor is it sniping.

the tone of your posts is aggressive. If you modify your tone and post with gentleness and grace you might find you get different responses.

you have said several times that you are bring treated with meanness.
I was trying to advise you on something that may help to remedy that.

If you want a civil discussion you should do your best to be civil.

I was not trying to be mean. If I was I would not have begun with "I don't know if you realise.....".
How could I have given you such advice in a more gentle fashion?
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Many experts translate the verse this way a couple below as examples:

 

Dr. David Sorenson Understanding the Bible - The word translated as ordained (τασσω tasso) has the sense of ‘determining’ or ‘choosing.’ 

 

Matthew Pool - As many as were ordained to eternal life, believed; God, who ordered the end, ordereth the means, and gives them opportunities to hear the word, and by it graciously worketh faith in them whom he hath appointed to eternal life; without which faith, purging the heart, there is no hope of life eternal. 

 

Dozens of verses in the bible that tells us that God saves anybody who asks.  You can not build doctrine from a single verse in scripture even if this verse were about election, scripture taken as a whole proves we are saved by faith in Christ.  The process is very simple and just as written in dozens of verses.  Everyone, you and I included have the same opportunity.  

 

1 Corinthians 15:1-4  Moreover, brethren, I declare unto you the gospel which I preached unto you, which also ye have received, and wherein ye stand;  (2)  By which also ye are saved, if ye keep in memory what I preached unto you, unless ye have believed in vain.  (3)  For I delivered unto you first of all that which I also received, how that Christ died for our sins according to the scriptures;  (4)  And that he was buried, and that he rose again the third day according to the scriptures:
 
1 Peter 2:24  Who his own self bare our sins in his own body on the tree, that we, being dead to sins, should live unto righteousness: by whose stripes ye were healed.
 
Romans 5:1  Therefore being justified by faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ:
 
John 3:15-16  That whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have eternal life.  (16)  For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.
 
Romans 3:22  Even the righteousness of God which is by faith of Jesus Christ unto all and upon all them that believe: for there is no difference:
 
Romans 3:24  Being justified freely by his grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus:
 
Romans 3:28-30  Therefore we conclude that a man is justified by faith without the deeds of the law.  (29)  Is he the God of the Jews only? is he not also of the Gentiles? Yes, of the Gentiles also:  (30)  Seeing it is one God, which shall justify the circumcision by faith, and uncircumcision through faith.
 
Romans 4:3  For what saith the scripture? Abraham believed God, and it was counted unto him for righteousness.
 
Romans 4:5  But to him that worketh not, but believeth on him that justifieth the ungodly, his faith is counted for righteousness.
 
Romans 4:11  And he received the sign of circumcision, a seal of the righteousness of the faith which he had yet being uncircumcised: that he might be the father of all them that believe, though they be not circumcised; that righteousness might be imputed unto them also:
 
Romans 4:16  Therefore it is of faith, that it might be by grace; to the end the promise might be sure to all the seed; not to that only which is of the law, but to that also which is of the faith of Abraham; who is the father of us all,
 
Romans 5:9  Much more then, being now justified by his blood, we shall be saved from wrath through him.
 
Romans 9:33  As it is written, Behold, I lay in Sion a stumblingstone and rock of offence: and whosoever believeth on him shall not be ashamed.
 
Romans 10:4  For Christ is the end of the law for righteousness to every one that believeth.
 
Romans 10:9-10  That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved.  (10)  For with the heart man believeth unto righteousness; and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation.
 
Romans 11:6  And if by grace, then is it no more of works: otherwise grace is no more grace. But if it be of works, then is it no more grace: otherwise work is no more work.
 
Galatians 2:16  Knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the law, but by the faith of Jesus Christ, even we have believed in Jesus Christ, that we might be justified by the faith of Christ, and not by the works of the law: for by the works of the law shall no flesh be justified.
 
Galatians 3:5-6  He therefore that ministereth to you the Spirit, and worketh miracles among you, doeth he it by the works of the law, or by the hearing of faith?  (6)  Even as Abraham believed God, and it was accounted to him for righteousness.
 
Galatians 3:8  And the scripture, foreseeing that God would justify the heathen through faith, preached before the gospel unto Abraham, saying, In thee shall all nations be blessed.
 
Galatians 3:14  That the blessing of Abraham might come on the Gentiles through Jesus Christ; that we might receive the promise of the Spirit through faith.
 
Galatians 3:22  But the scripture hath concluded all under sin, that the promise by faith of Jesus Christ might be given to them that believe.
 
Galatians 3:24  Wherefore the law was our schoolmaster to bring us unto Christ, that we might be justified by faith.
 
Ephesians 1:13  In whom ye also trusted, after that ye heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation: in whom also after that ye believed, ye were sealed with that holy Spirit of promise,
 
Ephesians 2:8  For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:
 
Philippians 3:9  And be found in him, not having mine own righteousness, which is of the law, but that which is through the faith of Christ, the righteousness which is of God by faith:
 
1 Timothy 1:16  Howbeit for this cause I obtained mercy, that in me first Jesus Christ might shew forth all longsuffering, for a pattern to them which should hereafter believe on him to life everlasting.
 
James 2:23  And the scripture was fulfilled which saith, Abraham believed God, and it was imputed unto him for righteousness: and he was called the Friend of God.
 
Edited by The Ohio Patriot
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Acts 13:48 And when the Gentiles heard this, they were glad, and glorified the word of the Lord: and as many as were ordained to eternal life believed.  

 

The word translated as ordained has the sense of ‘determining’ or ‘choosing.’ The thought could just as accurately be translated, ‘and as many as had chosen eternal life believed.’ There is not predestination or election implied. Rather, the thought simply is that upon hearing the gospel, those who had chosen to receive eternal life in fact believed. There is far more of a ‘whosoever will’ implied than sovereign grace. 

The question should be asked, "When exactly did God ordain these saints to eternal life?". The assumption is in eternity past but nothing in the verse says when the ordaining took place. When a Calvinist approaches the verse he sees an ordination that happened before the creation of Adam but this is because his mind is already programmed to read the verse this way. But again nothing in the verse says the ordination took place before the foundation of the world. So when did the ordination take place? You have to be careful when you set the time of ordination. This is why I asked the question in a previous post about Romans 9:13. The election in Romans 9:11 did NOT take place before the foundation of the world. This is how a Calvinist reads the verse because his theology has already established it in his mind for the verse to read as such. The election took place while the children were in the womb.

 

A deeper understanding of Romans 2:5-10; John 3:18-21 and the case of Cornelius will clear up when the ordination took place.

 

Even if the verse did say that the ordination took place in eternity past that does not nullify man's free will and responsibility to believe. Especially if the ordination is based on foreknowledge. There is nothing in the verse that suggests a man's responsibility is voided. You have to read that into the verse to come up with that.

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Once again, I'm giving you every opportunity to correct me and you'd rather just made snide little ad homs.

 

This thread is about arguing against Calvinism. Do you plan to tell us why you disagree with Reformed theology? Or do you just plan to keep on derailing the thread with your little personal vendetta?

 

Incidentally, I find it really interesting that you feign offense at being told you're being dishonest, but then turn around and tell everybody I haven't cited scripture in "fifteen or more posts" when I just cited Acts 13:48 two posts ago.

 

Anyone here can go back & look at your post & find your lack scriptures in the number of post I stated even though you deny it. 

 

However, I did not say that you did not post scriptures beyond that number of post.

 

By the way, go back & look, you will find that I showed evidence that the doctrine of Calvin is not found in the Bible, I also stated it is false teaching.> Right here.> Right here. >Right here. >Right here. >And right here I stated it was false doctrine.

 

If you don't know where I stand on this issues its because you've paid no attention to my post.

 

Seems all your doing for the last 15 post counting back from my previous post that you just replied to is mostly taking jabs at those you disagree with.

 

Being as this in this direction, I'm finished with it. >I tried to be nice to you, yet you failed to return it, & this is going no where that is good so why should any of us keep on replying?

 

Have a great Saturday, catch you somewhere else on OB.

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it is not a personal jab nor is it sniping.

the tone of your posts is aggressive. If you modify your tone and post with gentleness and grace you might find you get different responses.

you have said several times that you are bring treated with meanness.
I was trying to advise you on something that may help to remedy that.

If you want a civil discussion you should do your best to be civil.

I was not trying to be mean. If I was I would not have begun with "I don't know if you realise.....".
How could I have given you such advice in a more gentle fashion?

 

The purpose of this thread is for you to explain why you disagree with Calvinism. Do you plan to tell us why you disagree with Calvinism or do you plan to continue trying to derail the thread with your personal diatribes against me?

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[seems all your doing for the last 15 post counting back from my previous post that you just replied to is mostly taking jabs at those you disagree with.

 

Then you haven't been reading my posts. I've been trying in vain to get somebody to talk to me about Calvinism.

 

Being as this in this direction, I'm finished with it. >I tried to be nice to you, yet you failed to return it, & this is going no where that is good so why should any of us keep on replying?

 

First of all, go back and read your words in post #3. You called us closed minded, proud, stuck up, and false teachers. That's being nice?

 

Second, when you say "why should any of us keep on replying", keep in mind that, so far, only one of you has actually replied and even he had to plagiarize somebody else's work. But, plagiarism, or not, at least he had the guts to try. That's a lot more than I can say for you.

 

Now, since the purpose of this thread is to discuss arguing against Calvinism, do you plan to discuss Calvinism, or do you plan  to just keep on telling how awful the mean ol' Calvinist is being to you? 

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All sides of this argument have been putting forth their points for centuries. All sides cite Scripture to support their view. The main disagreement comes down to how the sides interpret the related verses. Men greatly used of God have held to all these sides so it's clear if one has a heart to serve God the Lord can and will use them for His glory and honour no matter which side of this argument they hold to.

 

Is it likely anyone here will say anything new concerning this debate? Will someone here suddenly discover a verse that all others have overlooked which will clear this all up? Are any here who already have studied this out and made their choice as to what they believe about this matter really likely to change their mind now?

 

All of the personal stuff should be left out of these discussions. They are not beneficial to the debate and they are not edifying. If each side simply put forth the Scripture they believe supports their view and let it stand, that should suffice. If anyone undecided were to have questions, that would be a good place for them to raise their questions. All the rabbit trails are unbecoming and lead only to briars.

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Question for a Calvinist.

 

Where is Romans 9:13 located in the OT?

 

It's a reference to Malachi 1:2-3

 

2“I have loved you,” says the Lord. But you say, “How have you loved us?” “Is not Esau Jacob’s brother?” declares the Lord. “Yet I have loved Jacob 3but Esau I have hated...

 

Malachi is a book in the Old Testament.

Edited by Auburn88
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In a debate, if one party uses an example to make a point, the other party has every right to use that same example.

the point is, if you stand in the middle of the room and say "Whosoever will go out that door on the right shall receive a cookie", the offer is made to all who hear it, but only those who choose to obey the call actually get the cookie.

 

.Auburn88

thus, those who did not obey are not included and "whosoever" doesn't mean everybody.

 

Now, do you want to debate me or not?

I disagree with that argument, Auburn. All God's offers, invitations, whosoevers, etc, do not question total depravity.  The response that I make (& have made a few pages ago) is that the Gospel call IS to "whosoever will." We need not add, "you've got to be elect before before you believe, though if we do, it should be to impress on our hearers their desperate lost situation - as Jesus himself does in the following verses.

 

John 3:14 And as Moses lifted up the serpent in the wilderness, even so must the Son of man be lifted up:

15 That whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have eternal life.

16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.

17 For God sent not his Son into the world to condemn the world; but that the world through him might be saved.

18 He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.

19 And this is the condemnation, that light is come into the world, and men loved darkness rather than light, because their deeds were evil.

20 For every one that doeth evil hateth the light, neither cometh to the light, lest his deeds should be reproved.

21 But he that doeth truth cometh to the light, that his deeds may be made manifest, that they are wrought in God.

 

Why should that be considered an embarrassment to the "calvinist" or need explaining away? Remember that John said in the opening verses:

John 1:That was the true Light, which lighteth every man that cometh into the world.

10 He was in the world, and the world was made by him, and the world knew him not.

11 He came unto his own, and his own received him not.

12 But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name:

13 Which were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God.

 

3:Jesus answered and said unto him, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God.

Nicodemus saith unto him, How can a man be born when he is old? can he enter the second time into his mother's womb, and be born?

Jesus answered, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God.

That which is born of the flesh is flesh; and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit.

Marvel not that I said unto thee, Ye must be born again.

 

If you have studied Reformed doctrine - to oppose or accept - you will be familiar with such Scriptures & how to understand them. The teaching is basically simple. Read & understand. We have no wish to argue against our Saviour God.

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All sides of this argument have been putting forth their points for centuries. All sides cite Scripture to support their view. The main disagreement comes down to how the sides interpret the related verses. Men greatly used of God have held to all these sides so it's clear if one has a heart to serve God the Lord can and will use them for His glory and honour no matter which side of this argument they hold to.

 

Is it likely anyone here will say anything new concerning this debate? Will someone here suddenly discover a verse that all others have overlooked which will clear this all up? Are any here who already have studied this out and made their choice as to what they believe about this matter really likely to change their mind now?

 

All of the personal stuff should be left out of these discussions. They are not beneficial to the debate and they are not edifying. If each side simply put forth the Scripture they believe supports their view and let it stand, that should suffice. If anyone undecided were to have questions, that would be a good place for them to raise their questions. All the rabbit trails are unbecoming and lead only to briars.

 

Brother, I could not agree any more or have said this any better.  I think we all have the desire to have these people repent of their ways but in the end so much time is wasted that could be used for God in better ways.  You are also exactly correct that the personal "stuff" should be left out.  I am now going to do something more productive with God's time!

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Brother, I could not agree any more or have said this any better.  I think we all have the desire to have these people repent of their ways but in the end so much time is wasted that could be used for God in better ways.  You are also exactly correct that the personal "stuff" should be left out.  I am now going to do something more productive with God's time!

 

Seriously??? Do you have any idea how hypocritical you're being, after being the  one to  make it personal, insisting that it shouldn't be personal?

 

Is this what they teach you in your church?

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Seriously??? Do you have any idea how hypocritical you're being, after being the  one to  make it personal, insisting that it shouldn't be personal?

 

Is this what they teach you in your church?

If he now says he's going to move on from such, that's a good thing, not something to target.

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I don't think running away when you don't get your way is a good thing.

 

If he had said that he realized he was wrong and was contributing to a volitile situation, then that would have been a noble thing.

 

But that isn't what he said. He said he's moving on because "those people" (i.e. "Auburn88") will not repent of the sin of disagreeing with him.

 

That's not noble. It's just childish.

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I don't think running away when you don't get your way is a good thing.

 

If he had said that he realized he was wrong and was contributing to a volitile situation, then that would have been a noble thing.

 

But that isn't what he said. He said he's moving on because "those people" (i.e. "Auburn88") will not repent of the sin of disagreeing with him.

 

That's not noble. It's just childish.

 

Your very good at bating people along with name calling.

 

According to the Bible a person that believes a lie is in the wrong, & you chose to believe a lie, for the doctrine of Calvin is not in the pages of the Bible. So its clearly a lie, & it is not of God. So your misrepresenting God, trying to convince people to accept a false doctrine. I would not allow this teaching in our church, yet I also know for a fact that our members would not allow it either.

 

I have fully stated my opinion, & you have called me as well as many others that disagrees with you on this issue dishonest, childish & many other names. Nothing good come of debating a person that does these things.

 

Yet I do not expect you to understand.

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