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New Argument Against Calvinism

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  • Independent Fundamental Baptist

I don't care what anyone says, but Calvinism is false, and it is not necessary to defend why, simply refer the arguer to read the Bible without any denominational bias or in the light of men's books they have read. The doctrine of salvation is one of the simplest doctrines in the Bible!

 

Have you not noticed, I agree with you, & or you agree with me, I've stated many times its not in the Bible.

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  • Independent Fundamental Baptist

This has been hashed and rehashed for centuries and typically it's only those who have not yet made up their mind about such that may be swayed. It seems all here have made their choice so what is the point of continuing with this?

 

At least here on OB it seems clear there are those born again in Christ, our brothers/sisters in Christ, who hold to Calvinism and who don't. Is it more edifying to continue to debate when no one on either side has any inkling of changing their view or might it not be better to move on to an edifying topic?

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This has been hashed and rehashed for centuries and typically it's only those who have not yet made up their mind about such that may be swayed. It seems all here have made their choice so what is the point of continuing with this?

 

At least here on OB it seems clear there are those born again in Christ, our brothers/sisters in Christ, who hold to Calvinism and who don't. Is it more edifying to continue to debate when no one on either side has any inkling of changing their view or might it not be better to move on to an edifying topic?

Yes, John. The doctrines nicknamed "calvinism" have been held by many great Christians in the past, including those very active in evangelism. It is strange that many seems determined to "disprove" the doctrine & discredit those who believe it.

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This has been hashed and rehashed for centuries and typically it's only those who have not yet made up their mind about such that may be swayed. It seems all here have made their choice so what is the point of continuing with this?

 

At least here on OB it seems clear there are those born again in Christ, our brothers/sisters in Christ, who hold to Calvinism and who don't. Is it more edifying to continue to debate when no one on either side has any inkling of changing their view or might it not be better to move on to an edifying topic?

 

As a newer ( 14 months) IFB member, I'm really enjoying this thread so don't move on yet. I've learned more about Calvinism in this thread than the past year trying to figure it out on my own. Reading actual doctrinal statements on Calvinism is confusing. But to have it explained by followers and verses really helps and I appreciate the IFB's answers with verses also, much appreciated!

 

Now can someone give me a EASY definition of arminianism?

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"And when they were come to Capernaum, they that received tribute money came to Peter, and said, Doth not your master pay tribute? He saith, Yes. And when he was come into the house, Jesus prevented him, saying, What thinkest thou, Simon? of whom do the kings of the earth take custom or tribute? of their own children, or of strangers? Peter saith unto him, Of strangers. Jesus saith unto him, Then are the children free" Matthew 17:24-26

Jesus is making a comparative analogy here to the children of Israel. The children of the Kings house were considered FREE. According to Calvinist thought, the only free person, by Calvinism's self-made definition of freedom, is that a person is a slave to Christ. This only describes positional freedom AFTER one has been saved. It is not descriptive of freedom as it relates to desire, choice and consequences. Calvinist freedom is a paradoxical Hobson's Choice.

The children of Israel were free, yet in their freedom they rejected Christ. The Calvinist will argue "they were not REALLY free". Well it's their word against God's:

".........Then are the children free"

"O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, thou that killest the prophets, and stonest them which are sent unto thee, how often would I have gathered thy children together, even as a hen gathereth her chickens under her wings, and ye would not!" Matthew 23:39

"Ye stiffnecked and uncircumcised in heart and ears, ye do always resist the Holy Ghost: as your fathers did, so do ye." Acts 7:51

You can not resist against what you do not have the freedom to oppose.

Edited by Dr James Ach
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As a newer ( 14 months) IFB member, I'm really enjoying this thread so don't move on yet. I've learned more about Calvinism in this thread than the past year trying to figure it out on my own. Reading actual doctrinal statements on Calvinism is confusing. But to have it explained by followers and verses really helps and I appreciate the IFB's answers with verses also, much appreciated!

 

Now can someone give me a EASY definition of arminianism?

  • Human Free Will - This states that though man is fallen, he is not incapacitated by the sinful nature and can freely choose God.  His will is not restricted and enslaved by his sinful nature.
  • Conditional Election - God chose people for salvation based on his foreknowledge where God looks into the future to see who would respond to the gospel message.
  • Universal Atonement - The position that Jesus bore the sin of everyone who ever lived.
  • Resistable Grace - The teaching that the grace of God can be resisted and finally beaten so as to reject salvation in Christ.
  • Fall from Grace - The Teaching that a person can fall from grace and lose his salvation. 
  • I can't get rid of that dot. The actual meaning behind these have various interpretations as well, but the last point, Fall from Grace, is the primary reason the IFB rejects Arminianism, and why we do not refer to ourselves as Arminian nor Calvinist.
Edited by Dr James Ach
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  • Independent Fundamental Baptist

As a newer ( 14 months) IFB member, I'm really enjoying this thread so don't move on yet. I've learned more about Calvinism in this thread than the past year trying to figure it out on my own. Reading actual doctrinal statements on Calvinism is confusing. But to have it explained by followers and verses really helps and I appreciate the IFB's answers with verses also, much appreciated!

 

Now can someone give me a EASY definition of arminianism?

I'm glad you have gained something from the discussion. That makes it worthwhile.

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I clearly said that I believe in the biblical model of predestination.  To say that I don't believe it would be to say that I don't believe the bible, which would be an abomination.

 

Yes I know what you said, But I have met people before who say that but what they do is not believe the teachings of the Bible that they don't like, but explain them away.  I don't know what Calvin teaches, but the scripture teaching is clear.

 

Joh 17:24  Father, I will that they also, whom thou hast given me, be with me where I am; that they may behold my glory, which thou hast given me: for thou lovedst me before the foundation of the world.

 
Eph 1:4  According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love:
 
Re 13:8  And all that dwell upon the earth shall worship him, whose names are not written in the book of life of the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world.
 
Eph 1:5  Having predestinated us unto the adoption of children by Jesus Christ to himself, according to the good pleasure of his will,
Eph 1:11  In whom also we have obtained an inheritance, being predestinated according to the purpose of him who worketh all things after the counsel of his own will:
 
1Pe 2:9  But ye are a chosen generation, a royal priesthood, an holy nation, a peculiar people; that ye should shew forth the praises of him who hath called you out of darkness into his marvellous light:

 

The promises to the church are exactly the same s=as those to the Jews.

 

De 14:2  For thou art an holy people unto the LORD thy God, and the LORD hath chosen thee to be a peculiar people unto himself, above all the nations that are upon the earth.
De 26:18  And the LORD hath avouched thee this day to be his peculiar people, as he hath promised thee, and that thou shouldest keep all his commandments;

 

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Yes, John. The doctrines nicknamed "calvinism" have been held by many great Christians in the past, including those very active in evangelism. It is strange that many seems determined to "disprove" the doctrine & discredit those who believe it.

 

I've noticed when something comes up you think is wrong, you will usually try & disprove it. Being as you do this don't you believe its right for the other person if something comes up they believe is wrong to try & disprove it?

 

Calvinism is easily disproved, for its not in the Bible. Yet I don't expect you to accept that statement nor any verses that I point out that proves its wrong.

 

One thing is for sure, both sides cannot be correct.

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  • Human Free Will - This states that though man is fallen, he is not incapacitated by the sinful nature and can freely choose God.  His will is not restricted and enslaved by his sinful nature.
  • Conditional Election - God chose people for salvation based on his foreknowledge where God looks into the future to see who would respond to the gospel message.
  • Universal Atonement - The position that Jesus bore the sin of everyone who ever lived.
  • Resistable Grace - The teaching that the grace of God can be resisted and finally beaten so as to reject salvation in Christ.
  • Fall from Grace - The Teaching that a person can fall from grace and lose his salvation. 
  • I can't get rid of that dot. The actual meaning behind these have various interpretations as well, but the last point, Fall from Grace, is the primary reason the IFB rejects Arminianism, and why we do not refer to ourselves as Arminian nor Calvinist.

 

 

I can easily see rejecting fall from grace but what about condition election? Is that biblical? Doesn't sound right either.

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Just a thought, to me fall from grace is a person who is saved, yet they have fallen into sin, & of course that can have a bad effect on the Christian in more ways than one.

 

Isaiah 59:2 But your iniquities have separated between you and your God, and your sins have hid his face from you, that he will not hear.
 
Ps 66:18 If I regard iniquity in my heart, the Lord will not hear me:

 

Plus one who is in such a state & refuses to repent, confess their sin, is open to God chastening, & it could be God may call him or her hone early if the refuse to repent, confess.

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Just a thought, to me fall from grace is a person who is saved, yet they have fallen into sin, & of course that can have a bad effect on the Christian in more ways than one.

 

Isaiah 59:2 But your iniquities have separated between you and your God, and your sins have hid his face from you, that he will not hear.
 
Ps 66:18 If I regard iniquity in my heart, the Lord will not hear me:

 

Plus one who is in such a state & refuses to repent, confess their sin, is open to God chastening, & it could be God may call him or her hone early if the refuse to repent, confess.

The biblical concept of fallen from grace is a person who thought they were saved by following the law.

 

"Christ is become of no effect unto you, whosoever of you are justified by the law; ye are fallen from grace." Galations 5:4

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Yes I know what you said, But I have met people before who say that but what they do is not believe the teachings of the Bible that they don't like, but explain them away.  I don't know what Calvin teaches, but the scripture teaching is clear.

 

Joh 17:24  Father, I will that they also, whom thou hast given me, be with me where I am; that they may behold my glory, which thou hast given me: for thou lovedst me before the foundation of the world.

 
Eph 1:4  According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love:
 
Re 13:8  And all that dwell upon the earth shall worship him, whose names are not written in the book of life of the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world.
 
Eph 1:5  Having predestinated us unto the adoption of children by Jesus Christ to himself, according to the good pleasure of his will,
Eph 1:11  In whom also we have obtained an inheritance, being predestinated according to the purpose of him who worketh all things after the counsel of his own will:
 
1Pe 2:9  But ye are a chosen generation, a royal priesthood, an holy nation, a peculiar people; that ye should shew forth the praises of him who hath called you out of darkness into his marvellous light:

 

The promises to the church are exactly the same s=as those to the Jews.

 

De 14:2  For thou art an holy people unto the LORD thy God, and the LORD hath chosen thee to be a peculiar people unto himself, above all the nations that are upon the earth.
De 26:18  And the LORD hath avouched thee this day to be his peculiar people, as he hath promised thee, and that thou shouldest keep all his commandments;

 

 

 

I believe every word that is in the bible, exactly as it is written.  You mention Calvin, I will just say since the tenants that Calvin taught are not in the Bible I clearly would NOT believe or agree with any of them.

Edited by The Ohio Patriot
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I believe every word that is in the bible, exactly as it is written.  You mention Calvin, I will just say since the tenants that Calvin taught are not in the Bible I clearly would NOT believe or agree with any of them.

 

 

 

Which tenet, specifically, do you believe isn't in the Bible?

 

After thinking about it, I'm tired of this. If you guys want to fight, then bring it on.

Edited by Auburn88
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I understand the fall from grace doctrine.

 

I asked about the conditional election. That doesn't sound right.

It is conditional in the sense that faith is required for salvation. However, though God foresees the future, He does not necessarily ACT based on His foreknowledge. Some of these camps on both sides view election as a functional force in salvation, rather than what election really is which is a description of God's choosing a person ahead of time for a specific purpose once that person has come to Christ in faith.

 

Israel had a specific purpose which was to be a light to the world. They reject it. Then God offered salvation exclusively to the Gentiles (Romans 11) and the attention will go back the Jews during the tribulation. (Matthew 23:39, Romans 11:26, Hosea 3:5, Ezekiel 37)

 

Election is thus DEscriptive of the destiny God has planned for the believer, not PREscriptive where God determines a person to be saved simply because He knows ahead of time that they will choose Him.

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