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New Argument Against Calvinism

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I have recently pondered a new argument against Calvinism that I would like your thoughts on. It is regarding the Calvinist belief that God controls all things based upon predestination and sovereignty, and the lack of uniformity among Calvinists and John Calvin's own beliefs.

 
My theory is that if God forced salvation against our wills, and Jesus affirmed that if any man will do His will he shall KNOW of the doctrine, then would it make sense that God would impose salvation, but not uniformity in doctrine among Calvinists? If God forces salvation, then why wouldn't He logically force ones belief system? If God is the author of sin, He would be the author of heresy as well. 
 
There is no uniformity among Calvinists as to sovereignty, TULIP, eschatology, and I see that as a flaw in the entire system of Calvinism if God's sovereignty dictates all future actions against the will of man and even nature itself. How could God control their salvation, and not control their belief in baby sprinkling, amillennialism, not to mention that Calvin was a murderer. 
 
Although Reformed theology attempts to distance itself from John Calvin, if such sovereignty is accurate even according to the Reformist views, there should not have even been a disagreement from Calvin to Reformed Theology.
 
Maybe this isn't new, and I simply haven't found any other discourse on it, but would love to your thoughts on this approach.
 
*******************

This is my initial thesis on the matter about the uniformity of belief

 

 

According to Calvinist determinism God could establish everyone's belief system if He wanted to. That much must be admitted by the honest Calvinist. Therefore:
 
THE CALVINIST UNIFORMITY CONUNDRUM
 
1. God can determine belief systems and cause uniformity among believers if He wanted to.
 
2. God wants uniformity among believers. Philippians 2:2-5
 
3. God determines all things, and God especially determines all things that He wants.
 
4. Therefore all belief systems of the elect should be uniform and all Calvinists of one mind.
 
Subjectively, the arrogance of the Calvinists proves that they themselves believe that all belief systems should be uniform. The fact that they consistently condescend to anyone that does not agree with is proof of that. Calvinists themselves argue for uniformity of belief.
 
If a Calvinist was honest with his theology, he would say that all who disagree with him are not saved. After all, if "Calvinism IS the] gospel" then anyone who disagrees with it is not saved. Mark 1:15 ("Repent and believe the gospe]")
 
So even in a Calvinists own attempt to convince others of their position, if the Calvinist wholeheartedly believes he is right, then he is effectually arguing that uniformity of beliefs are predetermined. If the Calvinist does not admit this, he would have to admit there's a possibility that he could be wrong, but if there is a possibility he could be wrong, then that would cast doubt on his election, because 1 Peter 1:4 says to make your calling and election SURE.
 
Not all Calvinists are uniform. Not all Reformers are uniform. Reformers won't readily admit they are Calvinists and Calvinists won'd admit they are Augustinians. 
 
The lack of uniformity in the belief system of Calvinism according to Calvinist determinism destroys the entire system. The Calvinist must either admit that God can NOT determine all things, or that God does not WANT to detemine all things, or that He does NOT determine all things to escape the conundrum.

 

Edited by Dr James Ach
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  • Independent Fundamental Baptist

The true blue followers of Calvin will not budge off of their TULIP doctrine no matter what argument you may put up. They're stuck on, they think its a fact, that they're special, that they've been picked out of all the rest of the people that has lived or ever will live, they've got proud hearts  because they feel they are the elect, chosen by God, that is they very highly of self.

 

I figure with the SBC trying to be accepting, tolerant, of the TULIP people, trying to have unity that is not there, letting false doctrine come into the SBC, in the end it will split wide open. If they would only rid of it right now, nip it before it grows in number it would not be so bad, yet if they put it off, Which is exactly what they're doing, the TULIP people will gain many converts & in the end the SBC will suffer tremendously because of letting the false doctrine stay & build up gaining numbers. They fail to understand a little leaven will leaven the whole loaf.

 

All the SBC is doing is helping the TULIP people, helping the teaching of false doctrine that is not found in the pages of the Holy Bible that God has supplied us with, having given it to us as our instruction Book, to be used for doctrine, reproof, correction, & instructions in righteously.

 

I read one of their sites & the TULIP doctrine comes up very often & they have some amazing argument on the subject. They have many problems over this doctrine, but hardly any of them will admit their problem comes from false teachings of the TULIP. Perhaps none of them, or perhaps only a very few, have the faith to stand on God's truth & they're outnumbered.

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  • Independent Fundamental Baptist

I did have one Calvinist admit to me that God does send babies to hell. At least he was consistent with the teachings of Calvin.

 

Anyone ever read Laurence Vance's book The Other Side Of Calvinism? I've heard it's the best thing out there exposing the pitfalls of Calvin's TULIP teachings.

 

He touches on this inconsistency among Baptists who hold to Calvin's tenets.

 

http://www.vancepublications.com/calvinism%20baptists.htm

Edited by ASongOfDegrees
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The true blue followers of Calvin will not budge off of their TULIP doctrine no matter what argument you may put up. They're stuck on, they think its a fact, that they're special, that they've been picked out of all the rest of the people that has lived or ever will live, they've got proud hearts  because they feel they are the elect, chosen by God, that is they very highly of self.

 

 

Firstly, those who believe in the scriptural doctrine of predestination, that I have met do not consider themselves as special.  They understand that all believers, even you are the elect.

 

Secondly they are not proud, but humble that God has chosen them.

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Firstly, those who believe in the scriptural doctrine of predestination, that I have met do not consider themselves as special.  They understand that all believers, even you are the elect.

 

Secondly they are not proud, but humble that God has chosen them.

 

If they feel they've been picked out of a ll the billions of people that's been born into the world by God to be saved, & its not by their choice, & all others have been picked to be born into this world without the opportunity to accept Christ as their Savior. Yes, they're a very proud bunch of people, & they do not understand the Word of God.

 

2Pe 3:9 The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance.

 

God is not slack concerning His promise, He does not wish any should perish, yet they teach some are born only to be sent to Hell at their death.

 

And God teaches us.

 

Ro 1:20 For the invisible things of him from the creation of the world are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even his eternal power and Godhead; so that they are without excuse:

 

That those who find them self in Hell will be without and excuse, it due to them rejecting Christ as Savior, that is its their onw fault.

 

Yet with what they teach, its God's fault, that God did not even give them an opportunity to be saved.

 

So yes, they've got a proud heart, the feel very special.

 

And remember this.

 

Mt 15:9 But in vain they do worship me, teaching for doctrines the commandments of men.
Mr 7:7 Howbeit in vain do they worship me, teaching for doctrines the commandments of men.
 
Joh 4:23 But the hour cometh, and now is, when the true worshippers shall worship the Father in spirit and in truth: for the Father seeketh such to worship him.
Joh 4:24 God is a Spirit: and they that worship him must worship him in spirit and in truth.

 

They, those that teach the TULIP doctrine, the doctrine that Calvin taught, followers of Calvinism, are teaching for doctrines the commandments of men in place of the true doctrine contained in the Bible, & God is quite clear, those who worship Him must worship Him in Spirit & truth.

 

So yes, again, the true blues of the TULIP doctrine has a proud heart, & feel special among all men. Even to the point that they believe & teach that can't even refuse God, that they have no choice in the matter, for they believe that the elect are given so much grace, & keeping getting it, until they accept Jesus as Savior, that its impossible for them not to be saved, impossible for them to be sent to Hell.

 

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Firstly, those who believe in the scriptural doctrine of predestination, that I have met do not consider themselves as special.  They understand that all believers, even you are the elect.

 

Secondly they are not proud, but humble that God has chosen them.

When was the last time you talked to a real Calvinist! LOL

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James:

This is my initial thesis on the matter about the uniformity of belief

 

 

According to Calvinist determinism God could establish everyone's belief system if He wanted to. That much must be admitted by the honest Calvinist. Therefore:
............

 

There is a fundamental fallacy in your reasoning:= Because you believe abc...., by MY reasoning, you must  also believe def....  

 

No. because we believe Scripture, we believe God is sovereign, & man by nature is a lost & guilty sinner, already condemned for his sin, yet unable in his fallen state to turn to God for salvation apart from the grace of God giving life.

John 1:10 He was in the world, and the world was made by him, and the world knew him not.

11 He came unto his own, and his own received him not.

12 But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name:

13 Which were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God.

 

 

3:16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.

17 For God sent not his Son into the world to condemn the world; but that the world through him might be saved.

18 He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.

19 And this is the condemnation, that light is come into the world, and men loved darkness rather than light, because their deeds were evil.

 

6:44 No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw him: and I will raise him up at the last day.

45 It is written in the prophets, And they shall be all taught of God. Every man therefore that hath heard, and hath learned of the Father, cometh unto me.

 

Calvinists - Bible-believing Christians - acknowledge that we cannot of ourselves understand all mysteries  & need the Holy Spirit first to give us life with the Word of truth, so making us his spiritual children. We do not instantly have a right understanding of every truth. God has ordained means by which we learn, first the Gospel of salvation by the LORD Jesus Christ, then how that must affect our lives as children of God.

 

As children (both as human children & children of God) we learn from our parents & teachers. And as teachers & parents we teach what we have learned. Sadly many believe error which cause them to reject truths plainly taught in Scripture.

 

I would count you as believing & propagating error, including anti-calvinism & premil PTR dispensationalism. No doubt you would list my firmly held beliefs as errors. Happily, in the providence of God our wrong understandings do not negate our salvation as brothers in Christ. But our wrong beliefs do have consequences. Keeping searching the Scriptures, & listening to other believers with whom we presently disagree. One day we will come to perfect unity. Hallelujah, PTL!

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  • Independent Fundamental Baptist

2 Peter 3:9
9
The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance.

I believe this is true! If it is true, God would not create people predestined to hell with no chance to repent.

God is merciful he gave his son for all who would repent.

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2 Peter 3:9
9
The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance.

I believe this is true! If it is true, God would not create people predestined to hell with no chance to repent.

God is merciful he gave his son for all who would repent.

 

That verse proves the TULIP doctrine is false, but believes of the flower doctrine adds to it by saying that verse only means them.

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That verse proves the TULIP doctrine is false, but believes of the flower doctrine adds to it by saying that verse only means them.

Yes, I have spoken to many concerning this particular verse, and they claim it MEANS "...God is not willing that any (of the elect) should perish, but that all (the elect) should come to repentance." For God so love the (elect of) the world that He gave His only begotten Son, that whosoever (of the elect) believeth in Him ..."

 

this is what they believe-from the proverbial horse's mouth.

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  • Independent Fundamental Baptist
Joh 3:15 That whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have eternal life.
Joh 3:16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.

 

And that whosoever in the above two verses does not really mean whosoever.

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Yes, I have spoken to many concerning this particular verse, and they claim it MEANS "...God is not willing that any (of the elect) should perish, but that all (the elect) should come to repentance." For God so love the (elect of) the world that He gave His only begotten Son, that whosoever (of the elect) believeth in Him ..."

this is what they believe-from the proverbial horse's mouth.


Heard that from their own mouths too.
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Yes, I have spoken to many concerning this particular verse, and they claim it MEANS "...God is not willing that any (of the elect) should perish, but that all (the elect) should come to repentance." For God so love the (elect of) the world that He gave His only begotten Son, that whosoever (of the elect) believeth in Him ..."

 

this is what they believe-from the proverbial horse's mouth.

 

We are actually considering James' wonderful new insight into "calvinism" rather than all the old objections tossed out on every occasion.

 

2 Peter 3:

Knowing this first, that there shall come in the last days scoffers, walking after their own lusts,

And saying, Where is the promise of his coming? for since the fathers fell asleep, all things continue as they were from the beginning of the creation.

For this they willingly are ignorant of, that by the word of God the heavens were of old, and the earth standing out of the water and in the water:

Whereby the world that then was, being overflowed with water, perished:

But the heavens and the earth, which are now, by the same word are kept in store, reserved unto fire against the day of judgment and perdition of ungodly men.

But, beloved, be not ignorant of this one thing, that one day is with the Lord as a thousand years, and a thousand years as one day.

The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance.

 

That's a handy "proof-text" to disprove Reformed doctrine. It's also convenient to label Reformed doctrine "calvinism" as if we followed a man, rather than the teaching of Scripture. This "calvinist" rejects infant baptism & Presbyterian ecclesiology.  Not every "calvinist" is well-versed in Scripture, nor is every defence of "calvinism" valid. We must look carefully  at Scriptures that appear to be in conflict with other Scriptures.

 

Peter was writing in the 60s, the "last days" before the destruction. At that time the "scoffers" were the Jewish leaders who rejected the Apostolic Gospel, and, knowing Jesus' prophecies against them were scoffing at his unfulfilled prophecies.  Meanwhile the Gospel was proclaimed to them - read the sermons of Acts & you will see that repentance and salvation in the name of Jesus were freely preached. Warnings for rejection of God's salvation were also given, in very clear language. He is looking beyond the imminent destruction to the final judgement, & the NH&NE.

 

All people are responsible for their behaviour, though sadly, none of us can behave acceptably to God. We are all guilty sinners. God's Gospel call is without preconditions. But by nature, without the Holy Spirit quickening us, we would all reject the Gospel. It's is OUR will that we reject the Gospel. Can anyone at the judgement seat say, "It's your fault, God; I am only condemned because you didn't elect me." We are condemned for our sin, but saved by grace, through faith in Christ.

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Joh 3:15 That whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have eternal life.
Joh 3:16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.

 

And that whosoever in the above two verses does not really mean whosoever.

 

In what way do those verses question Reformed doctrine? We preach salvation by repentance and faith, and whosoever repents & believes in the Son begins eternal life.

 

And remember that Jesus was teaching a narrow minded Pharisee that God's love extends to the world, not just the Jews. He went to to teach:

 

17 For God sent not his Son into the world to condemn the world; but that the world through him might be saved.

18 He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.

19 And this is the condemnation, that light is come into the world, and men loved darkness rather than light, because their deeds were evil.

.......

36 He that believeth on the Son hath everlasting life: and he that believeth not the Son shall not see life; but the wrath of God abideth on him.

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I did have one Calvinist admit to me that God does send babies to hell. At least he was consistent with the teachings of Calvin.

 

The Westminster Confession of Faith states: "Elect infants, dying in infancy, are regenerated, and saved by Christ, through the Spirit, who worketh when, and where, and how he pleaseth: so also are all other elect persons who are incapable of being outwardly called by the ministry of the Word."

 

According to the Westminster Confession of Faith: "NON Elect infants, dying in infancy, are NOT regenerated, and NOT saved by Christ, through the Spirit, who worketh when, and where, and how he pleaseth: so also are all other NON elect persons who are incapable of being outwardly called by the ministry of the Word."

 

If a Calvinist is honest the he or she will have to admit that their system of theology teaches that there are babies in hell.

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The Westminster Confession of Faith states: "Elect infants, dying in infancy, are regenerated, and saved by Christ, through the Spirit, who worketh when, and where, and how he pleaseth: so also are all other elect persons who are incapable of being outwardly called by the ministry of the Word."

 

According to the Westminster Confession of Faith: "NON Elect infants, dying in infancy, are NOT regenerated, and NOT saved by Christ, through the Spirit, who worketh when, and where, and how he pleaseth: so also are all other NON elect persons who are incapable of being outwardly called by the ministry of the Word."

 

If a Calvinist is honest the he or she will have to admit that their system of theology teaches that there are babies in hell.

 

The Scriptures are our standard, NOT the Westminster Confession. What do the Scriptures say regarding babies that die, even born of adultery and before circumcision so with no claim to the covenant? A hint is given 2 Sam. 12, but is there any clear teaching?

 

I presume Arminians are comforted knowing that any baby that makes a conscious confession of repentance & faith in Jesus as LORD, is saved. But if they do not, they die without hope and hell is their place for eternity.

 

I would rather trust in an all-gracious God.

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I'm not much for ever recommending other authors, but since this video addresses more of the philosophical side of Calvinism, it is worth watching, and one of the best refutations I have seen against the core of Calvinism.

 

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Daomzm3nyIg

 

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