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    • By 1Timothy115 in Devotionals
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      Psalms 119:1-8                                         Sep. 5 - Oct. 2, 2019
      1 ALEPH. Blessed are the undefiled in the way, who walk in the law of the LORD.
      2 Blessed are they that keep his testimonies, and that seek him with the whole heart.
      3 They also do no iniquity: they walk in his ways.
      4 Thou hast commanded us to keep thy precepts diligently.
      5 O that my ways were directed to keep thy statutes!
      6 Then shall I not be ashamed, when I have respect unto all thy commandments.
      7 I will praise thee with uprightness of heart, when I shall have learned thy righteous judgments.
      8 I will keep thy statutes: O forsake me not utterly.
      The following verse stood out to me...
      5 O that my ways were directed to keep thy statutes!
      At first glance it seemed to me this person’s soul is poured out with intense desire to have God’s direction in keeping His Word.
      I made a small wood fire in our backyard for my granddaughter, Julia, since she would be staying overnight with us. My wife and Julia stayed outside at the fire for about half an hour. Then, I found myself alone to watch the fire die out on a particularly lovely evening. So I took my verse from above and began to repeat it for memorization. As I repeated the verse, I tried to contemplate the words and apply them to what I was seeing around me. 
      The moon and stars were out now peering through the scattered clouds above.
      [Genesis 1:16 And God made two great lights; the greater light to rule the day, and the lesser light to rule the night: he made the stars also. Genesis 1:17 And God set them in the firmament of the heaven to give light upon the earth, Genesis 1:18 And to rule over the day and over the night, and to divide the light from the darkness: and God saw that it was good.]
      Thought 1         
      The moon has stayed his course since the day God created him, also the stars, obeying the statutes directed by God from the first day they were created. Can you imagine God’s direction to the Moon and stars, “moon you will have a path through the sky above the earth, stars you will occupy the firmament above the moon and be clearly visible in the cloudless night sky.”
      Then, the trees, grass, even the air we breathe obey the statues God gave them from the beginning. None of these creations have souls, none have hearts, none have intelligence, but they all observe God’s statutes, His instructions for their limited time on earth.
      Thought 2
      What if we were like the moon, stars, trees, grass, or the other creations which have no soul? We would be directed to keep God’s statutes without choosing to keep them. This is not the image of God, there would be no dominion over other creatures, or over the earth. We would not be capable of experiencing the joy and peace of learning the love of God
      Genesis 1:26 And God said, Let us make man in our image, after our likeness: and let them have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the fowl of the air, and over the cattle, and over all the earth, and over every creeping thing that creepeth upon the earth.
      Philippians 4:7 And the peace of God, which passeth all understanding, shall keep your hearts and minds through Christ Jesus.
      Thought 3 (October 2, 2019)
      Is the psalmist pleading God to force God’s statutes to become the man’s ways? No, he is speaking of his own failure in keeping God’s statutes and his desire to keep them, very much like Paul in Romans 7:14-25.
      God doesn’t work through force to turn men from their ways that they would desire His statutes or desire God Himself. Men must reject (repent) put aside his own ways and voluntarily seek God and His statutes.

Ccm Being Used By Temple Baptist Church Powell, Tn (Pastor Clarence Sexton)

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brosmith
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Really????  My oh my, where do i draw this line in the sand?  Do I draw it here today? Nah, too contemporary.  Do I draw it in the 70's or  maybe the 50's?  How about the 1850's??  Nah, that would be too far back, old fashioned and I would ruffle too many feathers.  People do like their pianos and other musical instruments and we know most churches didn't have them back then  Next, people would expect me to draw the line on women wearing pants and we know that is old fashioned.  Hmm, ok, I know. Draw the line in good ole 1980.  We can still have our pianos and organs, that they called "compromise" 100 years ago, but I can still throw some rocks at those who use guitars and sing songs from groups that are too liberal.    

 

Yes, Satan truly is patient and it started a bit farther back then some today are willing to accept. 

A nice bit of sarcasm, there, but I think it shows your ignorance of the subject. And please, I don't use 'ignorance' as an insult, but rather, as my belief that you just don't understand it.

 It ultimately has nothing to do with time, with a tyle that matches some particular period. Hymns have historically been written in a style that is specific to hymns, and really nothing else, though at first it began as a somewhat folk-style, but was used for the hymns and has stuck. Its a style that has ben in use for over 500 years and it is, again, specific to hymns.  Thus, not a period-piece style.

 

"Contemporary" in music, has nothing to do specifically with WHEN a song was written-there a many good, godly hymns and songs written in various times, but are not seen as contemporary. Where music becomes contemporary, is when it seeks to emulate they current popular music styles of the day. The thing you see in CCM is a continual changing of they styles to remain contemporary with secular music styles. Thus, it must always be changing and shifting, always moving. Sure, some of the older songs are still appreciated, but in much the same manner as the nostalgic 'oldies' you might hear on a secular radio station. To be contemporary, it must be current, popular and faddish, all things which Christianity is opposed to, generally-speaking. While there is nothing wrong with many things of the current day, many wonderful tools and such brought by technology, trying to always be in fashion is not one of them.

 

Christianity is specifically about an unchanging attitude, to match an unchanging God and gospel. We read an old book, which, amazingly, in telsef, was written in a style that didn't even exist anywhere in earth when it was written-the KJV is not in the writing style of 1611-rather, it took portions of styles from many periods to more precisely present the meaning of the text. It was never truly 'contemporary' either.

 

We serve an unchanging God, read an unchanging book, preach an unchanging gospel and truth. We are told to seek the old paths, where are the good ways. Why should our music be any different? Why do we want it to fit ANY particular time? Why can't I sing "A Mighty Fortess Is Our God", written in the 16th century, along with 'A Passion For Souls' written in the 20th, and have them fit perfectly together?

 

As for instruments, most are basically neutral-how we use them is what matters. I play ukulele, but I play it in a godly manner as I play hymns. So a guitar, a piano, an organ, or a trumpet, can all be played in a godly manner, or to glorify the flesh. I would draw the line at drums, though in an orchestral setting, where it is not used to maintain a beat, but to accentuate music, I believe would be fine.

 

Yes, Satan is patient, and it began in the garden.

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A nice bit of sarcasm, there, but I think it shows your ignorance of the subject. And please, I don't use 'ignorance' as an insult, but rather, as my belief that you just don't understand it.

 It ultimately has nothing to do with time, with a tyle that matches some particular period. Hymns have historically been written in a style that is specific to hymns, and really nothing else, though at first it began as a somewhat folk-style, but was used for the hymns and has stuck. Its a style that has ben in use for over 500 years and it is, again, specific to hymns.  Thus, not a period-piece style.

 

"Contemporary" in music, has nothing to do specifically with WHEN a song was written-there a many good, godly hymns and songs written in various times, but are not seen as contemporary. Where music becomes contemporary, is when it seeks to emulate they current popular music styles of the day. The thing you see in CCM is a continual changing of they styles to remain contemporary with secular music styles. Thus, it must always be changing and shifting, always moving. Sure, some of the older songs are still appreciated, but in much the same manner as the nostalgic 'oldies' you might hear on a secular radio station. To be contemporary, it must be current, popular and faddish, all things which Christianity is opposed to, generally-speaking. While there is nothing wrong with many things of the current day, many wonderful tools and such brought by technology, trying to always be in fashion is not one of them.

 

Christianity is specifically about an unchanging attitude, to match an unchanging God and gospel. We read an old book, which, amazingly, in telsef, was written in a style that didn't even exist anywhere in earth when it was written-the KJV is not in the writing style of 1611-rather, it took portions of styles from many periods to more precisely present the meaning of the text. It was never truly 'contemporary' either.

 

We serve an unchanging God, read an unchanging book, preach an unchanging gospel and truth. We are told to seek the old paths, where are the good ways. Why should our music be any different? Why do we want it to fit ANY particular time? Why can't I sing "A Mighty Fortess Is Our God", written in the 16th century, along with 'A Passion For Souls' written in the 20th, and have them fit perfectly together?

 

As for instruments, most are basically neutral-how we use them is what matters. I play ukulele, but I play it in a godly manner as I play hymns. So a guitar, a piano, an organ, or a trumpet, can all be played in a godly manner, or to glorify the flesh. I would draw the line at drums, though in an orchestral setting, where it is not used to maintain a beat, but to accentuate music, I believe would be fine.

 

Yes, Satan is patient, and it began in the garden.

I do not feel insulted because you said you believe I am ignorant on a subject.  I am appreciative when someone calls me ignorant and then explains why they believe this, as you did.  I don't particularly like it when it is a hit and run.

 

Anyway, I liked the music being sung by the church choir.  You talk of a "spirit" that goes with the music and that is the spirit of compromise.  If I only hear the music by the church choir and I feel it glorifies God and I get it for my choir, how has my attitude changed?  How have I compromised if my intentions are to Glorify God and I am ignorant as to the roots of a song or who wrote it?  If I am not looking to have it appeal to the people in order to draw them in, but rather Glorifying God, have I compromised?  Should I research the beginnings of all songs in church and the author and try to find out his/her beliefs before we sing it?  That might cause me to throw out all Fanny Crosby stuff. 

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I do not feel insulted because you said you believe I am ignorant on a subject.  I am appreciative when someone calls me ignorant and then explains why they believe this, as you did.  I don't particularly like it when it is a hit and run.

 

Anyway, I liked the music being sung by the church choir.  You talk of a "spirit" that goes with the music and that is the spirit of compromise.  If I only hear the music by the church choir and I feel it glorifies God and I get it for my choir, how has my attitude changed?  How have I compromised if my intentions are to Glorify God and I am ignorant as to the roots of a song or who wrote it?  If I am not looking to have it appeal to the people in order to draw them in, but rather Glorifying God, have I compromised?  Should I research the beginnings of all songs in church and the author and try to find out his/her beliefs before we sing it?  That might cause me to throw out all Fanny Crosby stuff. 

Therein lies the problem and the danger. You like the music-it was re-arranged to more comfortably suit the IFB atmosphere. Many people will never do so much as to investigate who wrote the music, who they are, what they believe-I agree. But the danger lies in the musicians in charge, who are knowingly digging into known CCM work to use, rather than the massive amounts of already-godly music that need no rearrangement to be suitable for use.

 

Lemme give an example.  I have a friend, a preacher, who is a very smart man. He is also a businessman, and seeks to work his business in a manner that pleases and glorifies God. In the church where he serves as an associate pastor, he ad an email ministry for Christian leadership. He wrote articles, recommended books, and the like, for resources Christian leaders and businesspeople could use.

  Now, this man had used a few book from a person, and having read them he was hapy with them and found them godly and helpful. I don't know how much he knew about this man's actual faith and beliefs.  So, when he wrote another book, this preacher quickly recommended it, having had such good response from the earlier ones. He even included a few free pages that could be downloaded for review, a teaser, if you will. So I downloaded it.  

 

  Right in the beginning, there was a quote. I don't remember the actual quote, but I DO remember who was quoted: Lao-Tzu. Heard of him? he was actually Laozi-and he was the founder of Taoism, or Tao Buddhism. First thing, a Buddhist quote. In a book recommended for Christians. Seeing a problem?

 

Fortunately, my wife, before she was saved, was heavinly into the New Age, and while I wasn't familiar with Lao-Tzu, she was, and it set off a warning with her. I contacted the preacher, and wanrned him about it. Praise God he is a humble man, he quicky rescinded the book, and gave a warning about its use. He later admitted he just hadn't researched THAT book, since the others were so good.

 

My point being, just because someone is edified by something and is ignorant of the dangers, doesn't remove the dangers-it just makes them, really, more dangerous and subtle. Most people never look into the dangers o CCM or its adaptation-instead they just slowly begin to slide into an inevitable worldliness. Danger is still danger, even if we don't recognize it. Especially today, as we are in such an information age.

 

As for Fanny Crosby, no one felt they had to alter her music to use it in church-it was good from the day it was first played and sung; the very fact they feel the need to alter it for use should set off a warning bell. Its like taking all the dirty stuff out of a porn movie, because it has an otherwise nice storyline. Why alter the junk, when there are so many other good things out there without having to alter it?

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Fanny had many bad associations and wrote secular music as well, including music used in burlesque shows. As with most music, her music has been altered to suit churches from then to now, sometimes a little, sometimes a lot. The basis for some of her music, as well as many other songs in our hymnals, were from contemporary secular songs of the time and folk songs.

 

As we look back at the history of hymns we also see that for centuries the church only sang psalms and when the hymns first came on the scene many churches rejected them. That battle continued for a long while. The same is true with regards to musical instruments, from the organ and piano to the guitar and drum and other instruments.

 

Some place a higher standards upon modern song writers than they do upon past song writers, or even some who serve in the church.

 

We have no consistent standard when it comes to music. What was once battled over is now acceptable. Are we compromised because we accept what they didn't?

 

The great psalmist of Israel, David, had many issues, left a mixed legacy, yet was used of God and some of his songs are in Scripture. David used loud music, a wide variety of instruments, and danced vigorously before the Lord.

 

I expect I will actually be greatly surprised as to just what music is played in heaven, and what's not.

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John, while there are examples of hymns that used popular tunes, it was relatively rare.
The vast majority of Fanny Crosby's songs used purpose written tunes. I am hesitant to say all as I don't know that for certain, but she worked with musicians to make the tunes.

Also she was saved as an adult - did she write secular music after her salvation?
I genuinely don't know.

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Seems like if we want to be consistent with the other forum where everyone jumped on BlessedSongs we should allow Temple Baptist and Dr. Sexton to answer these statements......

 

Actually MANY videos were provided. With David Cloud pretty much no information was given. Big difference.

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Actually MANY videos were provided. With David Cloud pretty much no information was given. Big difference.

You can make any argument with a video.  I don't suppose anyone has attended any of these services or asked Dr. Sexton how he feels about CCM?

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You can make any argument with a video.  I don't suppose anyone has attended any of these services or asked Dr. Sexton how he feels about CCM?

 

It is his church and he's allowing it. Using your reasoning if someone posted 3 videos of a Catholic, an emergent and a homosexual preaching at his church we couldn't sound an alarm for that. As long as the information for a person to make a reasonable judgement is being presented it isn't gossip. It's pretty clear what is going on in his church.

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It is pretty clear what is going on.

The real question is "Is his use of this music wrong?"

Personally I see no point in posting more of these videos. A few to show the point, but more and more simply exposed any who care to click on them to music which you are condemning.
I would suggest rather post their version and post the name of the writer/artist, but not the associated video. The first two or three display the.point.

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Well, I have been to the church.  Why are some so eager to pass judgment.  Why are some always so eager to attack good men who are doing "great" work for God?  A great church, day care, school,  great soul winning ministry, a great college.  I guess we will have the opportunity to answer for that someday.

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It is his church and he's allowing it. Using your reasoning if someone posted 3 videos of a Catholic, an emergent and a homosexual preaching at his church we couldn't sound an alarm for that. As long as the information for a person to make a reasonable judgement is being presented it isn't gossip. It's pretty clear what is going on in his church.

This is not even a rational, equivalent comparison, sorry Brother I will not attack a man, church or school that does more for God than most of us.

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One of the problems we have in IFB is our tendency to attack and accuse, or give almost blind support, rather than to discuss.

 

We quickly declare one person/church being wicked for something while ignoring the same thing in another or even defending them.

 

This is unproductive and not biblical conduct.

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Well, I have been to the church.  Why are some so eager to pass judgment.  Why are some always so eager to attack good men who are doing "great" work for God?  A great church, day care, school,  great soul winning ministry, a great college.  I guess we will have the opportunity to answer for that someday.

 

A "great" church doesn't compromise. I know of to many schools and churches going to CCM. This is just another example.

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This is not even a rational, equivalent comparison, sorry Brother I will not attack a man, church or school that does more for God than most of us.

 

I find it to be a good comparison. Don't think you can just say it isn't and that makes it so. The videos clearly show the compromise just as videos of false teachers would show the compromise.

 

That is your choice to not expose compromise. That isn't Biblical.

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It is pretty clear what is going on.

The real question is "Is his use of this music wrong?"

Personally I see no point in posting more of these videos. A few to show the point, but more and more simply exposed any who care to click on them to music which you are condemning.
I would suggest rather post their version and post the name of the writer/artist, but not the associated video. The first two or three display the.point.

 

We have several things to consider when judging music:

 

#1 - Who does it identify me with?

#2 - Do the song writers, musicians, and singers portray godliness?

#3 - Is this a psalm, a hymn, or a spiritual song?

#4 - Would it be good to listen to the song as it is in its original form?

 

When it comes to these videos, the answers to the questions is:

 

#1 - They identify the church with CCM (because that's what these songs are)

#2 - The song writers, musicians, and singers are not portraying godliness (godliness requires a separation from evil)

#3 - They are neither psalms, hymns, nor spiritual songs because they are a product of carnality.

#4 - No, it is not good to listen to these songs in their original form (but if your going to listen to a revised rendition of it then why not listen to the real thing?)

 

The reason why I posted so many is to offer proof that this was not a quirk or a once in a while thing. With Temple Baptist Church, CCM is used quite frequently and has been used for many years. When our son went to Crown College (2005-2006) we found that much of the music that was made available on Temple Baptist Church's website was either CCM or charismatic. And by the way, there are a lot of youtube videos showing charismatic music being used by Temple Baptist Church. I could start a thread posting them as well.

 

As a side note: I believe that our independent fundament Baptist churches are in danger of losing the fight against carnality and many have already lost the fight because of adopting CCM in their services. We were shocked to find Harvest Baptist Church in Ft Dodge, Iowa (Pastor Marvin Smith) had become a contemporary church. Our son and his wife are members there and we were passing through about a month ago. We visited the church at their midweek service. Here are some things that we observed during the service: in the pews there is a booklet of 60 contemporary worship choruses and they sang many of those contemporary worship choruses that night, there was a round of applause after the offertory (the offertory was a hymn done in a swing/waltz style), a soloist sang "Lord I Believe In You" written by Crystal Lewis as a special with lots of amens and raising of hands and then there was a round of applause after the special (look up the video of Crystal Lewis singing this song if you want to), and lastly the invitational hymn was done in swing/waltz style. During the message, Pastor Smith mentioned how that he listens to worship music and then he demonstrated how he grooves to the music (he jokingly stated that he knew it was carnal). The crazy part about this whole thing is that Pastor Marvin Smith travels around the country preaching in other churches and each year Harvest Baptist Church holds a missions conference as well as a spiritual warfare conference. And he has written at least two books on spiritual warfare. We walked away from the service grieved in our spirits.

Edited by brosmith
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I have no problem with your posting them, or with your assessment.

My point was that after posting the first.... Say three, you could have.posted the video from the church and not promoted the.original artists by giving their video also.
Their name.would be enough to point out the association.

Other than that......... Go for it.

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One of the problems we have in IFB is our tendency to attack and accuse, or give almost blind support, rather than to discuss.

 

We quickly declare one person/church being wicked for something while ignoring the same thing in another or even defending them.

 

This is unproductive and not biblical conduct.

Yes, John but it seems like many on this website only are one sided.  What they are now doing to Temple Baptist is akin to what David Cloud would do.  

 

Not a single person attacking this church has first hand knowledge of Temple Baptist or Clarence Sexton.  I prefer to stand with good men.  

 

I have made it clear in the past what I think of CCM music, and it has become common for people to take a video and make claims about a church.  Should we allow this issue to cancel what Clarence Sexton, Temple Baptist, and Crown College has done.  If that is your choice so be it, but I will stand with God's men.  

 

At the rate some are attacking other people for issues they disagree with, when they are finished it will be a few pious people standing with David Cloud.   

Edited by The Ohio Patriot
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Yes, John but it seems like many on this website only are one sided.  What they are now doing to Temple Baptist is akin to what David Cloud would do.  

 

Not a single person attacking this church has first hand knowledge of Temple Baptist or Clarence Sexton.  I prefer to stand with good men.  

 

I have made it clear in the past what I think of CCM music, and it has become common for people to take a video and make claims about a church.  Should we allow this issue to cancel what Clarence Sexton, Temple Baptist, and Crown College has done.  If that is your choice so be it, but I will stand with God's men.  

 

At the rate some are attacking other people for issues they disagree with, when they are finished it will be a few pious people standing with David Cloud.   

I agree. We have a bad habit of shooting our own. We often publically lash out at a pastor/church and basically push them into a corner, which rarely ever results in something good. We point at one issue yet rather than target just that, we choose full auto and begin attacking character, making assumptions, and sometimes even questioning salvation.

 

We need better communication among ourselves. We need to be able to address an issue without making personal attacks. If we feel the need to separate ourselves from a particular pastor/church we need to do so respectfully as we declare the actual reason, and leave it at that, no personal attacks or attempts to stretch one problem area into meaning the whole is corrupt. In most cases it would be best to move on from there rather than belaboring the matter over and over again...until the next thing comes along.

 

It would be helpful if we also took into consideration how much most of us don't like the idea of outsiders telling our Independent pastor/church how bad they are, especially when not put forth in a good manner. Such assaults, especially public ones, tend to raise folks defenses, not open a door for discussion or serious consideration of a matter.

 

Along these lines we might also want to ask where is the perfect church and who is the perfect pastor? What about those Christians we admire from the past, were they perfect? If they were alive today would we still be quoting them or might we be thinking we needed to separate from them?

 

No doubt there are issues that sometimes need to be addressed, but they need to be addressed in the right manner, with the right attitude and motive, and in a way that one hopes may lead to benefit, understanding or restoration to the glory of God.

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brosmith,

 

I couldn't have put it any better. What you mention is in my part of the country. Schools and churches I know personally are being influenced by CCM left and right. A school well known in IFB circles up here called Northland took Baptist out of their name and are now really big into CCM. They also now are teaming up with charismatic churches. There are also churches here in Minnesota and Wisconsin that are no longer practicing separation as they once have and now support CCM. I am blessed to be in a church that still takes a stand against CCM and holds to the King James Bible. My fear though is it is going to be harder and harder to find churches like these. That is why it is important we take stand. Even if is against churches and schools that were once sound and have done a lot of good in the past. This whole issue grieves my heart.

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