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Can Believers Go To Hell?

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The Greek word for "repentance", when applied to manrepenting, is the word "metanoia".  It is defined in the Strongs as a "compunction (for guilt, including reformation)

The turning from sin is included in one's repentance.  If one does not turn from sin, one has not repented.

Notice Revelation 2, Jezebel was given a space to repent of her deeds, not of her idea about who God was.  God wants us to feel so remorseful for our sins that we are repulsed at the thought that we even commited (or commit) them.

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"Repentance is a supernatural work of God whereby a responsive sinner, being convicted by the Holy Spirit of his rebellion, turns to God from his sinful ways and trusts Jesus Christ for salvation.  .....  Bible repentance means a turning to God and a change of mind toward God that results in a change of life." ... David Cloud (Way of Life Encyclopedia of the Bible: Repentance)

 

2 Timothy 2:25 In meekness instructing those that oppose themselves; if God peradventure will give them repentance to the acknowledging of the truth;

 

Acts 11:18 When they heard these things, they held their peace, and glorified God, saying, Then hath God also to the Gentiles granted repentance unto life.

 

Acts 17:30 And the times of this ignorance God winked at; but now commandeth all men every where to repent:

 

Acts 20:21 Testifying both to the Jews, and also to the Greeks, repentance toward God, and faith toward our Lord Jesus Christ.

 

Acts 26:20 But shewed first unto them of Damascus, and at Jerusalem, and throughout all the coasts of Judaea, and then to the Gentiles, that they should repent and turn to God, and do works meet for repentance.

 

Repentance does not mean that we become "sinless", but our desire will be to "sin less" and strive to "walk in the Spirit", and not "after the flesh".

Edited by LindaR

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"Repentance is a supernatural work of God whereby a responsive sinner, being convicted by the Holy Spirit of his rebellion, turns to God from his sinful ways and trusts Jesus Christ for salvation.  .....  Bible repentance means a turning to God and a change of mind toward God that results in a change of life." ... David Cloud (Way of Life Encyclopedia of the Bible: Repentance)

 

Yah, David Cloud is one side of the definitions issue too. I'm tired of hearing rehashed men's definitions - I want to find what the Bible says precisely.

 

Repentance does not mean that we become "sinless", but our desire will be to "sin less" and strive to "walk in the Spirit", and not "after the flesh".

 

That is the result of, and follows, repentance. But is it really repentance itself?

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The Greek word for "repentance", when applied to manrepenting, is the word "metanoia".  It is defined in the Strongs as a "compunction (for guilt, including reformation)

 

That's only a small part of the definition of metanoia. It is "to think differently or afterwards, i.e. reconsider (morally, feel compunction). That idea of reformation for guilt is NOT present in the Strong's.  If man reforms himself, is that not a work? Is the reformation not what God accomplished in us after salvation?
 

The turning for sin is included in one's repentance. If one does not turn from sin, one has not repented.

If one does not turn from sin, that proves that one has not repented. But to what extent to you define the 'turning'? A mental turning from sin to God - which is reflected in the above definition? Or are you saying that the physical turning from - ceasing to - sin is itself part of repentance?  Again, would that not be a work?

 

Don't judge me too hardly, I'm still figuring this out. 

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I happen to like David Cloud's definition of repentance because I believe it to be the best biblical definition I've found that describes what takes place when one trusts Christ for his/her salvation.  I've had members of my lost Jewish family ask me why they need to be "saved".  None of them believed they were lost.  None of them believed they were sinners because they were all into "good works" and those "good works" would get them into heaven....right?  Jesus Christ did not die for our unbelief...He died for our sins!  It is sin that separates man from God...and it is a 180 degree turn around from our sin and rebellion to God. Repentance and faith are two sides of the same coin.  Read Acts 20:21 again:

 

Acts 20:21 Testifying both to the Jews, and also to the Greeks, repentance toward God, and faith toward our Lord Jesus Christ.

 

What brought the Philippian jailor to the point of asking Paul and Silas what he must do to be saved?  I believe he already had a repentant heart because he was ready to kill himself.  He thought that the prisoners had escaped. 

 

Salvation is not a license to sin....and salvation does not make us sinlessly perfect.  Biblical repentance is not Lordship salvation.

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The Bible says all drunkards will have their part in the lake that burneth with fire and brimstone. My brother lived and died a drunkard.

And your interpretation of repentance is a dangerous one. It allows one to make a profession, live like the devil the rest of one's life, and still walk into heaven accepted.

 

by the way, the two examples you gave of repentance do not mean the same thing, no matter how much you want them to.

In the Hebrews reference, the word is taken from the Greek #3341.  In the other, from Greek #276.  Two totally different words with totally different meanings.  Yet you are trying to make them mean the same thing.

 

You are wrong again sir. You are no Greek or Hebrew scholar sir (not even a shade tree one).

 

The multiple doctorate alleged greek and hebrew scholars are ANYTHING BUT THAT. Puffed up with ignorant pride is all they are-wise fools at best. You nor they have any clue what script/manuscript/copy/forgery you are referencing when spouting that nonsense.

 

Don't attempt to change or correct the KJV in my presence buddy, ever.

 

Besides all that, you miss the real point. The real point is that puffed up knowledge (I call it ignorance) is the same as strong drinking in God's eyes. Who are we to place weights on anyone else's sins?

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I did not change, nor correct the KJV. Since the KJV was translated from the Hebrew and Greek, there is nothing wrong with going to the Greek for a definition of a New Testament word.

It is not I that is wrong. No drunkard will inherit the kingdom of God, but will have their part in the lake that burns with fire and brimstone. Don't try to change or correct the KJV in my presence ever

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I happen to like David Cloud's definition of repentance because I believe it to be the best biblical definition I've found that describes what takes place when one trusts Christ for his/her salvation.  I've had members of my lost Jewish family ask me why they need to be "saved".  None of them believed they were lost.  None of them believed they were sinners because they were all into "good works" and those "good works" would get them into heaven....right?  Jesus Christ did not die for our unbelief...He died for our sins!  It is sin that separates man from God...and it is a 180 degree turn around from our sin and rebellion to God. Repentance and faith are two sides of the same coin.  Read Acts 20:21 again:

 

Acts 20:21 Testifying both to the Jews, and also to the Greeks, repentance toward God, and faith toward our Lord Jesus Christ.

 

What brought the Philippian jailor to the point of asking Paul and Silas what he must do to be saved?  I believe he already had a repentant heart because he was ready to kill himself.  He thought that the prisoners had escaped. 

 

Salvation is not a license to sin....and salvation does not make us sinlessly perfect.  Biblical repentance is not Lordship salvation.

 

I concur. It just seems that a lot of times the fact that true repentance will result in a change of action somehow gets mixed up into the act of repentance itself.

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A drunkard who has made repentance towards God and accepted Christ as Savior will now look upon drinking as an affront to God, something he shouldn't do and be ashamed of doing.  That doesn't mean he won't still do it.  The drunkard saved by God and possessed by the Holy Spirit will try to stop drinking.  Hebrews 6 supports this point.  However, that doesn't mean the drunkard or any other sinner will ever completely forsake any and all sin; such is impossible in these wretched bodies.

 

A drunkard who claims Christ while happily drinking is doomed to hell, just as the whoremongers, liars and murderers are.

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You are wrong again sir. You are no Greek or Hebrew scholar sir (not even a shade tree one).

 

The multiple doctorate alleged greek and hebrew scholars are ANYTHING BUT THAT. Puffed up with ignorant pride is all they are-wise fools at best. You nor they have any clue what script/manuscript/copy/forgery you are referencing when spouting that nonsense.

 

Don't attempt to change or correct the KJV in my presence buddy, ever.

 

Besides all that, you miss the real point. The real point is that puffed up knowledge (I call it ignorance) is the same as strong drinking in God's eyes. Who are we to place weights on anyone else's sins?

 

Read it again guy. You nor any fool who attempts to refer to some greek word has zero clue what manuscript copy they are referencing. It is complete man-dependent conjecture who provided, copied, recopied, altered the final greek text you are trying to sound smarter from.

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Thanx, swathdiver.

I'm used to it.  When one cannot prove a doctrine wrong using Scripture, that one naturally will try to attack the person who holds that doctrine.

Same ol', same ol'.

The thing is, wretched accuses me of trying to change or correct Scripture, when it is quite clear he himself is attempting to change Scripture.  I have pointed out that the two Scriptures he referenced used entirely different words for repentance, yet he is attempting to push them off as the same.

Also, the Bible says all drunkards will have their part in the lake of fire, (paraphrased) yet wretched says not all drunks will. 

Who's right?  wretched? or the Bible?

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A drunkard who has made repentance towards God and accepted Christ as Savior will now look upon drinking as an affront to God, something he shouldn't do and be ashamed of doing.  That doesn't mean he won't still do it.  The drunkard saved by God and possessed by the Holy Spirit will try to stop drinking.  Hebrews 6 supports this point.  However, that doesn't mean the drunkard or any other sinner will ever completely forsake any and all sin; such is impossible in these wretched bodies.

 

A drunkard who claims Christ while happily drinking is doomed to hell, just as the whoremongers, liars and murderers are.

 

Well put IMO

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Relax a little Wretched and knock off the name calling.

 

No, now wait a minute. You don't know which fool in greek I am referencing. Maybe it was the hocuspocus fool or maybe the abbacadaba fool. Or just maybe I was referencing the swedish greek hippitydippity word for fool.

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No, now wait a minute. You don't know which fool in greek I am referencing. Maybe it was the hocuspocus fool or maybe the abbacadaba fool. Or just maybe I was referencing the swedish greek hippitydippity word for fool.

 

No, Swath is right, let's not go there. :sign0113:

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So then in God's eyes is drunkedness a greater sin than lust in your heart?

you can see a drunk in sin. You can't always see a lustful person.

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So then in God's eyes is drunkedness a greater sin than lust in your heart?

you can see a drunk in sin. You can't always see a lustful person.

That's an important point. We can't see the heart, we don't know if a saved person has fallen back into sin and there is a battle going on inside them, or if a person caught up in a particular sin is yet a lost sinner.

 

Scripture speaks of besetting sins and these must be dealt with through the Lord's help, but there is no time limit set upon one or several besetting sins being brought under the Lordship of Christ.

 

Were all of us here walking as close with the Lord, having all sins under the heel of Christ 5 years ago, or 10, or 20 or 30?

 

Haven't most of us seen, or experienced ourselves, one or more sins that cling tightly and take much more time than some others to be rid of?

 

Then we come back to the heart of the matter. Whether we can see a particular sin in another's life or not, we can't see their heart and know what battle may or may not be going on there.

 

If a man claims Christ as his Saviour and has a dozen obvious sins to deal with and he battles these and gets 11 of them cast off but has yet to do the same with the 12th and he dies, does that mean he wasn't saved and went to hell?

 

We already know from Scripture it's possible for a saved person to be caught up in sin, not turn from it after being prompted and chastised by the Spirit, and the Lord ends his life here because of that. Even so, they are saved, just the same as those who were saved and had nothing to survive the fire, yet they themselves were saved.

 

We have to be careful when treading upon this ground.

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I happen to like David Cloud's definition of repentance because I believe it to be the best biblical definition I've found that describes what takes place when one trusts Christ for his/her salvation.  I've had members of my lost Jewish family ask me why they need to be "saved".  None of them believed they were lost.  None of them believed they were sinners because they were all into "good works" and those "good works" would get them into heaven....right?  Jesus Christ did not die for our unbelief...He died for our sins!  It is sin that separates man from God...and it is a 180 degree turn around from our sin and rebellion to God. Repentance and faith are two sides of the same coin.  Read Acts 20:21 again:

 

Acts 20:21 Testifying both to the Jews, and also to the Greeks, repentance toward God, and faith toward our Lord Jesus Christ.

 

What brought the Philippian jailor to the point of asking Paul and Silas what he must do to be saved?  I believe he already had a repentant heart because he was ready to kill himself.  He thought that the prisoners had escaped. 

 

Salvation is not a license to sin....and salvation does not make us sinlessly perfect.  Biblical repentance is not Lordship salvation.

 

What is Lordship salvation?

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What is Lordship salvation?

Well, there is true Lordship salvation, which simply means when one accepts Christ they accept Him as Lord AND Saviour, because that's who He is; He's both, not one or the other.

 

There is a false form which many like to talk about, but since it's false and few even think like that, what's the point of focusing on them rather than what Scripture says?

 

The reason some bother to even point out what should be obvious, that Jesus is Lord AND Saviour, is because there are those out there who say one can say a prayer and have Jesus as their Saviour, but not as Lord. That's unbiblical, but popular because so many folks like the idea of thinking they are going to heaven, but they don't like the idea of being expected to actually having Jesus as Lord, expecting His followers to actually follow Him.

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I happen to like David Cloud's definition of repentance because I believe it to be the best biblical definition I've found that describes what takes place when one trusts Christ for his/her salvation.  I've had members of my lost Jewish family ask me why they need to be "saved".  None of them believed they were lost.  None of them believed they were sinners because they were all into "good works" and those "good works" would get them into heaven....right?  Jesus Christ did not die for our unbelief...He died for our sins!  It is sin that separates man from God...and it is a 180 degree turn around from our sin and rebellion to God. Repentance and faith are two sides of the same coin.  Read Acts 20:21 again:

 

Acts 20:21 Testifying both to the Jews, and also to the Greeks, repentance toward God, and faith toward our Lord Jesus Christ.

 

What brought the Philippian jailor to the point of asking Paul and Silas what he must do to be saved?  I believe he already had a repentant heart because he was ready to kill himself.  He thought that the prisoners had escaped. 

 

Salvation is not a license to sin....and salvation does not make us sinlessly perfect.  Biblical repentance is not Lordship salvation.

I find the last sentence odd since what your husband is putting forth in his reasoning regarding his brother is exactly what Lordship salvation says. That simply being that if one is saved they will not continue in a life of habitual sin, the same repentance factor your husband raises is in agreement with Lordship salvation.

 

For some reason there is much confusion as to what Lordship salvation is, and isn't.

 

If anyone wishes, the article here helps clear that up.

http://www.rapidnet.com/~jbeard/bdm/BookReviews/gospel.htm

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His sheep hear His voice and they follow Him.

One can claim that such a thing as a "saved drunkard", but it is a doctrine foreign to the truth.

One cannot make a profession of faith, live like the devil, die in that state, and hear "Enter in, thou good and faithful servant."


1Cor. 6:9 Know ye not that the unrighteous shall not inherit the kingdom of God? Be not deceived: neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor effeminate, nor abusers of themselves with mankind,

10 Nor thieves, nor covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor extortioners, shall inherit the kingdom of God.

Gal. 5:19 Now the works of the flesh are manifest, which are these; Adultery, fornication, uncleanness, lasciviousness,

20 Idolatry, witchcraft, hatred, variance, emulations, wrath, strife, seditions, heresies,

21 Envyings, murders, drunkenness, revellings, and such like: of the which I tell you before, as I have also told you in time past, that they which do such things shall not inherit the kingdom of God.

Edited by Standing Firm In Christ

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Romans 6:1 What shall we say then? Shall we continue in sin, that grace may abound?
Romans 6:2 God forbid. How shall we, that are dead to sin, live any longer therein?

 

Galatians 5:13 For, brethren, ye have been called unto liberty; only use not liberty for an occasion to the flesh, but by love serve one another.

 

There are exhortations in Scripture that teach the believer not to live in continual, habitual, and willful sin.  This doesn't mean that the believer will never sin again and become sinless (1 John 1:8-10).  If there is no Holy Spirit conviction of sin, then perhaps the believer should "examine" himself/herself:

 

2 Corinthians 13:5 Examine yourselves, whether ye be in the faith; prove your own selves. Know ye not your own selves, how that Jesus Christ is in you, except ye be reprobates?

 

The Lord will chastise His children.  If one receives no chastisement from the Lord, Scripture says that person is not a "son":

 

Hebrews 12:5 And ye have forgotten the exhortation which speaketh unto you as unto children, My son, despise not thou the chastening of the Lord, nor faint when thou art rebuked of him:
Hebrews 12:6 For whom the Lord loveth he chasteneth, and scourgeth every son whom he receiveth.
Hebrews 12:7 If ye endure chastening, God dealeth with you as with sons; for what son is he whom the father chasteneth not?
Hebrews 12:8 But if ye be without chastisement, whereof all are partakers, then are ye bastards, and not sons.
Hebrews 12:9 Furthermore we have had fathers of our flesh which corrected us, and we gave them reverence: shall we not much rather be in subjection unto the Father of spirits, and live?

Edited by LindaR

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I think it may help to read David Cloud's response to clarify what some think was a 'Lordship Salvation' stance http://www.wayoflife.org/database/repentancerevisited.html

 

I believe this is a short and accurate description of what repentance is and what it is not. 

 

The best advise I could give since this issue is such a conflict among IFB, is to take a concordance and look up EVERY reference to repentance in the Bible and see how it is used in context with every passage, and then study all of the conversions in the 4 gospels and Acts with focus on the word "believed".and "saved". 

 

You can even take all the references for repent, and put them on a word doc and print them out to review all of them. You will find different applications for repentance toward salvation, and different usages in regards to the Christian walk AFTER salvation (as in 2 Cor 7). It would be wise to this first before to get a good comprehension of the Biblical usage and how the Bible defines it so that one can  have a discerning mind when it comes to reading other articles on it (even before reading the Cloud article, and especially before reading an article from the Calvinistic McArthur because repentance has an entirely different meaning in that system of theology.)

Edited by Dr James Ach

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What is Lordship salvation?

It's another attempt by Calvinists to back door their theology into Baptist churches. A Lordship salvationist will over emphasis repentance to the point that you'll become an Arminian for all practical purposes. John MacArthur's mess of a book The Gospel According to Jesus is what really popularized the heresy.

 

Check out Charles Ryrie's book So Great Salvation. He's not KJVO but it's still a good read.

 

 I was a staff member on a Christian camp for rebelious teens for about six years where the preacher got swept up in Lordship salvation. I seen many young Christians hurt by this pernicious doctrine. Especially if they began to again struggle with certain sins. Some would be accepting Christ over and over and over trying to convince the Lord they really mean to repent and make him Lord of all this time.

 

Once you get to this place you lose your joy of salvation and will doubt even if you are one of the elect. Ultimately it leads to "faith shipwreck" (I Tim. 1:19).

 

Our pastor himself eventually fell into grevious sin and ended up out of the ministry.

 

I think the reason this heresy began was because of all the professing Christians that were being put out via "The Romans Road" and "Sinners Prayer" that would never produce any fruit. Some of them you couldn't even get into church which is usually one of the first steps in discipleship. So some preachers ended up going from one extreme to the other in their theology which is usually what happens.

Edited by ASongOfDegrees

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