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seaglass772

Can Believers Go To Hell?

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I personally follow Pauline Epistles for all doctrine applicable to me as a Gentile. That is what the Holy Spirit revealed directly to me in November, 2010 and not as a result of any man's teaching.
With Paul as "foundational" I came to realize that the Gospels were not written TO me, but they were still of some value FOR me. I do not even refer to the Hebrew Epistles for my doctrine as a Gentile.
The Old Testament will be of tremendous value to those true Israelites that are in the Tribulation, as will the New Testament and any other major documents that lay undiscovered (like the Dead Sea Scrolls).
Using parables from the Gospels to guide your life or using portions that pertain to the Millennium Age will surely lead you into false doctrine as a Gentile "Bride of Christ" member.

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Joh 3:15 That whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have eternal life.
Joh 3:16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.
 
So your not a whosoever?

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I personally follow Pauline Epistles for all doctrine applicable to me as a Gentile. That is what the Holy Spirit revealed directly to me in November, 2010 and not as a result of any man's teaching.
With Paul as "foundational" I came to realize that the Gospels were not written TO me, but they were still of some value FOR me. I do not even refer to the Hebrew Epistles for my doctrine as a Gentile.
The Old Testament will be of tremendous value to those true Israelites that are in the Tribulation, as will the New Testament and any other major documents that lay undiscovered (like the Dead Sea Scrolls).
Using parables from the Gospels to guide your life or using portions that pertain to the Millennium Age will surely lead you into false doctrine as a Gentile "Bride of Christ" member.

 

Truthfully, the Gospel of John was written for a Gentile audience as well.  Also, Luke was written TO a Gentile, Theophilus, as was Acts.  Therefore you have both the spiritual Gospel and one of the synoptic Gospels specifically written for a Gentile audience.  Your argument is a based on a false premise.

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Truthfully, the Gospel of John was written for a Gentile audience as well.  Also, Luke was written TO a Gentile, Theophilus, as was Acts.  Therefore you have both the spiritual Gospel and one of the synoptic Gospels specifically written for a Gentile audience.  Your argument is a based on a false premise.

While John's Gospel transcends the period where Israel could have received their Messiah in 70 AD and the destruction of the Temple, it is not sufficiently focused to systematically address the Gentiles who have absolutely no knowledge of the Law or had any "scripture" of any sort.

The Gospel of Luke and (2nd Luke) Acts were specifically written to be presented at Caesar's court in defense of the Apostle Paul and not "designed" to address specifically the Gentile believers who may or may not have any access to any of the Old Testament or the Law of Moses.

The Holy Spirit inserted in three places that Paul was THE Apostle TO the Gentiles and also inserted that Paul was the "masterbuilder" as well as other phrases that would lead Gentile believers to understand (especially in these "latter days") the necessity of using Paul's Epistles as our guide.

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While John's Gospel transcends the period where Israel could have received their Messiah in 70 AD and the destruction of the Temple, it is not sufficiently focused to systematically address the Gentiles who have absolutely no knowledge of the Law or had any "scripture" of any sort.

The Gospel of Luke and (2nd Luke) Acts were specifically written to be presented at Caesar's court in defense of the Apostle Paul and not "designed" to address specifically the Gentile believers who may or may not have any access to any of the Old Testament or the Law of Moses.

The Holy Spirit inserted in three places that Paul was THE Apostle TO the Gentiles and also inserted that Paul was the "masterbuilder" as well as other phrases that would lead Gentile believers to understand (especially in these "latter days") the necessity of using Paul's Epistles as our guide.

 

That's quite an interesting interpretation with a lot of logical leaps.  Do you have anything to support your claims (Scriptural or otherwise)?  Everything I have found directly contradicts your theory.  I won't argue that Paul was the Apostle to the Gentiles, but using that as a justification to elevate his writings over and above the rest of Scripture is nonsensical, especially in light of 2 Timothy 3:16-17 which says that ALL Scripture is profitable for doctrine.  It's like saying Timothy or Titus (Pauline epistles) aren't doctrinally binding for me because they were written to pastors and I'm not one.  

 

It seems that I'm unlikely to sway you on this, but if you want to provide evidence to support your claims then I'm happy to engage in a thougtful discussion.  Otherwise I don't see much point in continuing this line of thought because it flies in the face of two millennia of application and interpretation.

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A saved person going to hell is like an unrepentant sinner being in Heaven.

 

Think about it! :scratchchin:

 

 

Dr. Roberson :knuppel:

All or whosoever who believe in the name of Jesus Christ will go to heaven the Bible gives us full assurance of our salvation.

 

1 John 5:13 - These things have I written unto you that believe on the name of the Son of God; that ye may know that ye have eternal life, and that ye may believe on the name of the Son of God.

 

Ephesians 1:13-14 In whom ye also trusted, after that ye heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation: in whom also after that ye believed, ye were sealed with that holy Spirit of promise, Which is the earnest of our inheritance until the redemption of the purchased possession, unto the praise of his glory. 

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All or whosoever who believe in the name of Jesus Christ will go to heaven the Bible gives us full assurance of our salvation.
 
1 John 5:13 - These things have I written unto you that believe on the name of the Son of God; that ye may know that ye have eternal life, and that ye may believe on the name of the Son of God.
 
Ephesians 1:13-14 In whom ye also trusted, after that ye heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation: in whom also after that ye believed, ye were sealed with that holy Spirit of promise, Which is the earnest of our inheritance until the redemption of the purchased possession, unto the praise of his glory.

i can't agree with you.

My oldest brother believed in Jesus. He talked about Jesus more when he was drunk than anytime else. I use the word 'was' because my brother died a drunkard a few years back.

Drunkards believe in Jesus, yet will not be in heaven.

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Standing firm in Christ said

 

i can't agree with you.

My oldest brother believed in Jesus. He talked about Jesus more when he was drunk than anytime else. I use the word 'was' because my brother died a drunkard a few years back.

 

Drunkards believe in Jesus, yet will not be in heaven.  

 

 

 

The Bible says:
James 2:19 Thou believest that there is one God; thou doest well: the devils also believe, and tremble. 

 

There is a difference in intellectual knowlege of Christ and knowing Him in your heart.

 

Having faith in Christ unto salvation of the soul and knowing Him eternally in truth and spirit. When you know about God and believe in your heart you can know you  eternal salvation. 

 

1 John 5:13 These things have I written unto you that believe on the name of the Son of God; that ye may know that ye have eternal life, and that ye may believe on the name of the Son of God. 

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I knew that. Just wanted to point out there needed to be clarification. One can believe from now to eternity, yet if there has been no change, his belief is in vain.

17 Therefore if any man be in Christ, he is a new creature: old things are passed away; behold, all things are become new.

17 Even so faith, if it hath not works, is dead, being alone

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That's quite an interesting interpretation with a lot of logical leaps.  Do you have anything to support your claims (Scriptural or otherwise)?  Everything I have found directly contradicts your theory.  I won't argue that Paul was the Apostle to the Gentiles, but using that as a justification to elevate his writings over and above the rest of Scripture is nonsensical, especially in light of 2 Timothy 3:16-17 which says that ALL Scripture is profitable for doctrine.  It's like saying Timothy or Titus (Pauline epistles) aren't doctrinally binding for me because they were written to pastors and I'm not one.  

 

It seems that I'm unlikely to sway you on this, but if you want to provide evidence to support your claims then I'm happy to engage in a thougtful discussion.  Otherwise I don't see much point in continuing this line of thought because it flies in the face of two millennia of application and interpretation.

All of scripture is His Word and The Truth.  Amen brother!

 

John 8:31-32 Then said Jesus to those Jews which believed on him, If ye continue in my word, then are ye my disciples indeed; And ye shall know the truth, and the truth shall make you free. 

 

1 John 1:4-5 And these things write we unto you, that your joy may be full. This then is the message which we have heard of him, and declare unto you, that God is light, and in him is no darkness at all. 

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Joh 3:36 He that believeth on the Son hath everlasting life: and he that believeth not the Son shall not see life; but the wrath of God abideth on him.

 

The Scriptures are clear, he that believes hath everlasting life, he who does not believe hath only the wrath of God.

 

And as Paul stated.

 

2Ti 1:12 For the which cause I also suffer these things: nevertheless I am not ashamed: for I know whom I have believed, and am persuaded that he is able to keep that which I have committed unto him against that day.

 

Yes, I'm like Paul, I believe Jesus is fully able to keep that which I trusted to Him.

 

For you see, its God who keeps us saved, we cannot keep our self.

 

Joh 6:37 All that the Father giveth me shall come to me; and him that cometh to me I will in no wise cast out.
Joh 6:38 For I came down from heaven, not to do mine own will, but the will of him that sent me.
Joh 6:39 And this is the Father's will which hath sent me, that of all which he hath given me I should lose nothing, but should raise it up again at the last day.
 
Joh 17:12 While I was with them in the world, I kept them in thy name: those that thou gavest me I have kept, and none of them is lost, but the son of perdition; that the scripture might be fulfilled.
 
Joh 10:28 And I give unto them eternal life; and they shall never perish, neither shall any man pluck them out of my hand.
Joh 10:29 My Father, which gave them me, is greater than all; and no man is able to pluck them out of my Father's hand
 
2Ti 1:12 For the which cause I also suffer these things: nevertheless I am not ashamed: for I know whom I have believed, and am persuaded that he is able to keep that which I have committed unto him against that day.
 
Jude 1:24 Now unto him that is able to keep you from falling, and to present you faultless before the presence of his glory with exceeding joy,
 
1Pe 1:5 Who are kept by the power of God through faith unto salvation ready to be revealed in the last time.
 
So its true, once saved, always saved, its what the Bible teaches, not man!

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On Sat., while out soulwinning we encountered two drunks sitting outside drinking name brand liquor and smoking. Their first question was " what do you have available for the destitute?".  Anyway, one of them stated that yes he was saved, the other lady I was with asked him when, he stated since his baptism as an infant. (Catholic stronghold area) also high rates of alcoholism. This was about 10 a.m. by the way. The lady I was with is much more patient than I, they cursed throughout our interaction and the rock music blared in the background (right behind us) as they took swigs many times. 

Not sure my point, but that he assumed he was saved. But she was able to clearly present the gospel and she said after," I was going to leave them with clean hands." And she did.

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I've had members of the Methodist Church say that baptizing infants does not saved them, yet if an infant has been baptized & in later years dies they will say that person was saved.

 

No doubt, if one is baptized as an infant more than likely when they get older they will count on the baptizing to save them.

 

Of course usually its not baptizing, its usually sprinkling or pouring & they call it baptizing.

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Several years ago I saw a couple of college age soul winners taking tracts around an area where high schoolers and some college age folks gathered to hang out, listen to loud music and drink booze even though it was in the middle of the town. Most just ignored them and they moved on but for some reason a group of drunks started tossing bear on them and then throwing bear cans at them until they finally had to leave.

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i can't agree with you.

My oldest brother believed in Jesus. He talked about Jesus more when he was drunk than anytime else. I use the word 'was' because my brother died a drunkard a few years back.

Drunkards believe in Jesus, yet will not be in heaven.

 

 

Acts 20:21, the drunkard never made repentance towards God.

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True, swath diver. But he did believe. Many are of the mindset that they can live in continual sin and still believe they can enter heaven because they believe in Jesus. They are in for a rude awakening.

Edited by Standing Firm In Christ

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True, swath diver. But he did believe. Many are of the mindset that they can live in continual sin and still believe they can enter heaven because they believe in Jesus. They are in for a rude awakening.

Do you mean he was saved but then went back to drinking and he lost his salvation?

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No John. I do not believe he was ever saved. And the fact that he died a drunkard pretty much proves it.

 

Dying a drunkard proves nothing my friend.

 

Careful with this line of thinking folks. Many pious IFBs die with jealousy and envy over other Christians, pastors, preachers, etc.. in their hearts. It is a mistake to place weight on sin. Sin is sin so be careful who you judge and what sin you judge others who profess salvation just because their sin is on your "list of what is sin". Those born again and who tasted of the Spiritual Gift of God cannot be renewed again unto repentance for the Gift of God is WITHOUT REPENTANCE (God will not change His Heart on the once saved sinner) for the Lord would have to die all over again for them. AND YES, we can all fall into sin whether envy rooted in your heart, lust of possessions or secret hatred or disdain or becoming a drunkard BUT we cannot fall from Grace. Sure the former folks aren't easily found out by other church members but those sins of the heart are NO LESS SIN than strong drinking.

 

Yes, the word repentance is used in context with God Himself so I recommend we stop equating it to a work such as "turning from sin". It is a Spiritual change of heart, not a natural change of heart. It cannot be explained to the flesh or in the flesh.

 

On a side note: them happy drunks that speak of the Lord constantly are many times nicer folks than the pious :) NOT CONDONING drinking, just making an observation.

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The Bible says all drunkards will have their part in the lake that burneth with fire and brimstone. My brother lived and died a drunkard.

And your interpretation of repentance is a dangerous one. It allows one to make a profession, live like the devil the rest of one's life, and still walk into heaven accepted.

 

by the way, the two examples you gave of repentance do not mean the same thing, no matter how much you want them to.

In the Hebrews reference, the word is taken from the Greek #3341.  In the other, from Greek #276.  Two totally different words with totally different meanings.  Yet you are trying to make them mean the same thing.

Edited by Standing Firm In Christ

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So then, what is repentance - ceasing to sin? Cause if it is, that's a work.  

 

True repentance does not allow one to 'make a profession & live like the devil.' True repentance, IMO, is a change of mind and heart that results in clinging to Christ for salvation. That's not at all a mere profession. The person who has been so saved will sin again, but that sin is not held to their account (good thing, cause I know I've sinned since I've been saved. I've lied. Does that put me in the lake of fire, too?). They are considered in God's eyes as righteous, not as drunks or liars or whatever else. The Christian who sins cannot do so with impunity - they cannot enjoy their sin as they once would have, and they will be chastised of the Lord.

 

Not trying to make a point in your brother's case, as I don't know him. It just sounds like you're trying to define repentance as an action rather than a heart/mind change. I guess this hits close to home right now as this question is being addressed in my church right now - what exactly does repentance entail. I'm still trying to figure out a clear, Biblical way of defining it myself. It almost seems that people want to 'clarify' the definition of repentance based on their own life experience, whether saved as an adult from a life of gross sin (and thus emphasizing the turning from sin - which will follow repentance, but is not necessarily part of the repentance itself), or saved as a child and growing up with a misunderstanding of repentance based on the reactive definitions of others (a lot of young people I know have struggled with doubts of their salvation based on a misunderstanding of repentance - was I truly sorry for my sin? did I hate it like God hates it? did I repent enough?). I see these two sides in disagreement with each other, and I'm not convinced that they truly disagree, or that either is actually wrong. It just seems that in the attempt to clarify repentance, they are actually complicating what should be simple. Or perhaps combining discipleship with repentance.  This subject is so terribly important, but just makes me :icon_sad: right now.   :badday:

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