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Can Believers Go To Hell?

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Matthew 5

21 Ye have heard that it was said of them of old time, Thou shalt not kill; and whosoever shall kill shall be in danger of the judgment:

22 But I say unto you, That whosoever is angry with his brother without a cause shall be in danger of the judgment: and whosoever shall say to his brother, Raca, shall be in danger of the council: but whosoever shall say, Thou fool, shall be in danger of hell fire.

 

 

 

when it says that someone who says "thou fool" shall be in danger of hell fire, does that mean that believers are in danger of going to hell if they talk like that?

 

 

 

 

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The context is of a person that hates their brother without a cause. A person that hates their brother is someone that shows evidence of never having been saved. 1 John 3:15. Matthew here is describing different levels of ire, and the last which demonstrates that type of full blown hatred that shows that that man is not saved. 

 

It must be remembered that intent are expressed from the heart. Matthew 15:19, and thus this is a  person who degrades to what in the OT was considered an extraordinary declaration of hatred towards ones kinsmen. The escalation showed that there were certain words that brought on judgment of the counsel (such as libel and slander), but the latter were words that would incite a murderous response that could lead to a fight resulting in death (Prov 18:6), and at least showed the original person's intent, but the heart issue is not one that could be judged by an earthly court.

 

But the Bible is clear in many places that a believer can not lose salvation. 2 Timothy 1:12, 1 Peter 1:5, Eph 1:13, John 5:24, 2 Cor 1:22, John 10:28, John 6:37, 1 John 5:13, John 3:36, Phil 1:6, Romans 11:6, Jude 24.

Edited by Dr James Ach

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when it says that someone who says "thou fool" shall be in danger of hell fire, does that mean that believers are in danger of going to hell if they talk like that?

 

A saved person cannot go to hell.

 

Welcome aboard, would you like to share your testimony with us please?

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Matthew 5

21 Ye have heard that it was said of them of old time, Thou shalt not kill; and whosoever shall kill shall be in danger of the judgment:

22 But I say unto you, That whosoever is angry with his brother without a cause shall be in danger of the judgment: and whosoever shall say to his brother, Raca, shall be in danger of the council: but whosoever shall say, Thou fool, shall be in danger of hell fire.

 

 

 

when it says that someone who says "thou fool" shall be in danger of hell fire, does that mean that believers are in danger of going to hell if they talk like that?

 

What you also have to consider here is that this was a moment where Jesus was explaining to the people that the source of sin is not in literal actions but in the heart.  This was in contrast to what the scribes and Pharisees (see v. 20) practiced in the outward show of righteousness that was in discord with what they actually felt and thought.  The crux of the explanation in this passage is that even such a seemingly benign thought, feeling, or phrase puts one in danger of judgement the same as if murder had been committed.  The entirety of Jesus' sermon here in Matthew 5 centers on the fact that thoughts and feelings carry as much weight as actions in terms of being guilty of sin before a righteous and holy God and therefore in danger of judgement/hell fire.  This point is neatly summed up in verse 48.

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No, its not written to the person that's truly saved.

 

Te person who is truly saved.

 

Ro 4:8 Blessed is the man to whom the Lord will not impute sin.

 

Ro 4:22 And therefore it was imputed to him for righteousness.

 

Christ righteousness is imputed into him, & he is not saved because of his own righteousness, but by the righteousness of Christ.

 

If, that is if, we were saved by our own righteousness that would actually be being saved by our good works, that God owed us a debt for our works, & salvation would not be by grace.

 

 

Ro 4:3 For what saith the scripture? Abraham believed God, and it was counted unto him for righteousness.
Ro 4:4 Now to him that worketh is the reward not reckoned of grace, but of debt.
Ro 4:5 But to him that worketh not, but believeth on him that justifieth the ungodly, his faith is counted for righteousness.
 
 
Just as Abraham, his belief, his faith, so that Christ was counted as his righteousness, not of his own righteousness.
.

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Matthew 5-7 is the "constitution" of the millennial kingdom. It was preached during the time when the kingdom of heaven (i.e. the literal, physical, Abrahamic, Davidic kingdom of Jesus Christ upon the earth) was being offered to Israel. During the kingdom a man can wind up in hell for calling his brother a fool. 

 

You have to watch out for the kingdom doctrine in Matthew-Luke. This is why John's gospel is so different then the other two because it was written after the destruction of Jerusalem when the kingdom would be postponed.

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Matthew 5-7 is the "constitution" of the millennial kingdom. It was preached during the time when the kingdom of heaven (i.e. the literal, physical, Abrahamic, Davidic kingdom of Jesus Christ upon the earth) was being offered to Israel. During the kingdom a man can wind up in hell for calling his brother a fool.

You have to watch out for the kingdom doctrine in Matthew-Luke. This is why John's gospel is so different then the other two because it was written after the destruction of Jerusalem when the kingdom would be postponed.


So you're saying that you believe that the kingdom of heaven Christ spoke about was an earthly kingdom that would have come about immediately if the Jews had accepted Him then? To the exclusion of the Church Age?

Edited by salyan

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Matthew 5-7 is the "constitution" of the millennial kingdom. It was preached during the time when the kingdom of heaven (i.e. the literal, physical, Abrahamic, Davidic kingdom of Jesus Christ upon the earth) was being offered to Israel. During the kingdom a man can wind up in hell for calling his brother a fool. 

 

You have to watch out for the kingdom doctrine in Matthew-Luke. This is why John's gospel is so different then the other two because it was written after the destruction of Jerusalem when the kingdom would be postponed.

 

I have to disagree with your interpretation here.  If this were the case then Matthew 5-7 (and paralell passages in Mark and Luke) would have no application for the church age believer and thus there is no point to talking about them right now.  In the millennial Kingdom, Christ will be present and there will be no confusion regarding their interpretation so any discourse on them would totally futile. 

 

Also, the destruction of the temple was not the turning point from Jews to Gentiles.  We see in Acts where Peter was sent to Cornelius and when Paul is told to take the Gospel specifically to the Gentiles.  Acts was written well before 70 AD when the temple was destroyed.  The implementation of the Kingdom of Heaven came at Pentecost.  The Kingdom of God encompasses all of creation and the Millenial Kingdom marks Christs earthly reign after the Tribulation.

 

This is my understanding anyway.

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I have to disagree with your interpretation here.  If this were the case then Matthew 5-7 (and paralell passages in Mark and Luke) would have no application for the church age believer and thus there is no point to talking about them right now.  In the millennial Kingdom, Christ will be present and there will be no confusion regarding their interpretation so any discourse on them would totally futile. 

 

Also, the destruction of the temple was not the turning point from Jews to Gentiles.  We see in Acts where Peter was sent to Cornelius and when Paul is told to take the Gospel specifically to the Gentiles.  Acts was written well before 70 AD when the temple was destroyed.  The implementation of the Kingdom of Heaven came at Pentecost.  The Kingdom of God encompasses all of creation and the Millenial Kingdom marks Christs earthly reign after the Tribulation.

 

This is my understanding anyway.

 

Them you totally disagree, Now your professing that a saved person can lose their salvation. Which contradicts the very teachings of the Bible. That makes simple verses such as, John 3:16 a lie, as well as many others.

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Them you totally disagree, Now your professing that a saved person can lose their salvation. Which contradicts the very teachings of the Bible. That makes simple verses such as, John 3:16 a lie, as well as many others.

 

I'm not at all saying a person can lose their salvation.  If that's the way you read it that wasn't my intent.  I was saying I disagreed with Song's interpretation of Matthew 5-7 as referring only to the Millennial Kingdom.  I don't at all think that if a saved person calls his brother a fool that he'll go to hell.  My assertion is that the verses referenced in the OP are expounding on the depth of sin in contrast to what the scribes and Pharisees were teaching.

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So you're saying that you believe that the kingdom of heaven Christ spoke about was an earthly kingdom that would have come about immediately if the Jews had accepted Him then? To the exclusion of the Church Age?

Christ offered the kingdom promised to Israel first. When they rejected it the Church Age began which coincides with the "times of the Gentiles".

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I have to disagree with your interpretation here.  If this were the case then Matthew 5-7 (and paralell passages in Mark and Luke) would have no application for the church age believer and thus there is no point to talking about them right now.  In the millennial Kingdom, Christ will be present and there will be no confusion regarding their interpretation so any discourse on them would totally futile. 

 

Also, the destruction of the temple was not the turning point from Jews to Gentiles.  We see in Acts where Peter was sent to Cornelius and when Paul is told to take the Gospel specifically to the Gentiles.  Acts was written well before 70 AD when the temple was destroyed.  The implementation of the Kingdom of Heaven came at Pentecost.  The Kingdom of God encompasses all of creation and the Millenial Kingdom marks Christs earthly reign after the Tribulation.

 

This is my understanding anyway.

Matthew 5-7 still has application to Christians but you can't apply it in the strictest doctrinal sense. Jesus was preaching to the Jews offering them the kingdom of heaven. If you start trying to apply some of those verses doctrinally to the church you will end up with a heretical mess like the Catholic Church has on it's hands.

 

All scripture can be applied to the believer (II Tim. 3:16) but not all scripture can be doctrinal applied to the church. You can make a devotional or spiritual application with Matthew 5-7 but once you start establishing NT doctrine you are on dangerous grounds.

 

The rule of thumb is to use Paul's writings as the measure of what doctrinally applies in Matthew 5-7 and what doesn't.

 

God turned from the Jews in Acts 28:25-28. This was the THIRD and final time where Paul said God turned from the Jews to the Gentiles. 70 AD was just the final coup de gras delivered to the nation of Israel.

Edited by ASongOfDegrees

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A saved person will not go to hell...eternal separation from God for the believing isn't possible.

You are dealing with a different situation here. During the 1000 yr. kingdom of God a rebellious man can still end up in hell. In fact, he will be judged by his works at the Great White Throne judgment. 

 

This is NOT the case now.

Edited by ASongOfDegrees

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Matthew 5-7 still has application to Christians but you can't apply it in the strictest doctrinal sense. Jesus was preaching to the Jews offering them the kingdom of heaven. If you start trying to apply some of those verses doctrinally to the church you will end up with a heretical mess like the Catholic Church has on it's hands.

 

All scripture can be applied to the believer (II Tim. 3:16) but not all scripture can be doctrinal applied to the church. You can make a devotional or spiritual application with Matthew 5-7 but once you start establishing NT doctrine you are on dangerous grounds.

 

The rule of thumb is to use Paul's writings as the measure of what doctrinally applies in Matthew 5-7 and what doesn't.

 

God turned from the Jews in Acts 28:25-28. This was the THIRD and final time where Paul said God turned from the Jews to the Gentiles. 70 AD was just the final coup de gras delivered to the nation of Israel.

 

Salvation and citizenship were always intended to extend to the Gentiles (Gen 18:18, 22:18; Gal 3:8). It was not contingent upon the Jews accepting their Messiah.  Additionally, the Jews were not offered the Kingdom itself, for the Kingdom belongs only to God.  Rather they were offered entrance first.  References to the Kingdom of Heaven/God are not talking about an earthly reign (John 18:36), whereas the Millennial Kingdom is a literal earthly reign by Jesus for 1000 years following the tribulation until great white throne judgement (Rev 20).

 

However, I'm willing to consider your viewpoint if you can present a convincing Biblical argument.

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You are dealing with a different situation here. During the 1000 yr. kingdom of God a rebellious man can still end up in hell.

 

In fact, he will be judged by his works at the Great White Throne judgment. 

 

This is NOT the case now.

 

 

 

During the millennium kingdom, an unbelieving, unsaved man can still end up in hell, yes. But it is because he is a sinner that has not accepted his Savior.  The answer goes to dispensations. We see from Hebrews 11 the list of saints from all dispensations that had faith, without which it is impossible to please God. We are told in Romans 5 that Abraham was saved by his faith. Rev. 5:9 & 7:14 speaks to the martyrs of the Tribulation period who have been washed and redeemed to God by the blood of Christ. In each of these dispensations mankind is saved by faith in the sacrifice of Christ - why should it be any different in the last period?  

 

 

 

Revelation 20:11-15

"And I saw a great white throne, and him that sat on it, from whose face the earth and the heaven fled away; and there was found no place for them. And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is the book of life: and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works.
And the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works. And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death. And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire."

 

 

The Great White Throne Judgement judges all the dead - those that had not been resurrected previously  as believers. This would include the unsaved dead of all ages. If your reasoning were correct, that would make all men of all time to be judged by their works - not just those of the millennium.  We see here, too, that the criteria for their doom - being cast into the lake of fire - will not be their works. It will be that their name is not written in the book of life.

 

 

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During the millennium kingdom, an unbelieving, unsaved man can still end up in hell, yes. But it is because he is a sinner that has not accepted his Savior.  The answer goes to dispensations. We see from Hebrews 11 the list of saints from all dispensations that had faith, without which it is impossible to please God. We are told in Romans 5 that Abraham was saved by his faith. Rev. 5:9 & 7:14 speaks to the martyrs of the Tribulation period who have been washed and redeemed to God by the blood of Christ. In each of these dispensations mankind is saved by faith in the sacrifice of Christ - why should it be any different in the last period?  

 

 

 

The Great White Throne Judgement judges all the dead - those that had not been resurrected previously  as believers. This would include the unsaved dead of all ages. If your reasoning were correct, that would make all men of all time to be judged by their works - not just those of the millennium.  We see here, too, that the criteria for their doom - being cast into the lake of fire - will not be their works. It will be that their name is not written in the book of life.

 

 

 

 

Correct, right on, amen.

 

And the saved will not be judged in order to enter Heaven, that is they want be judged if they are saved or not, they will be judged to determined if they receive rewards, or lose rewards, & of course some will have no rewards at all, yet they're still saved.

 

 

1Co 3:12 Now if any man build upon this foundation gold, silver, precious stones, wood, hay, stubble;
1Co 3:13 Every man's work shall be made manifest: for the day shall declare it, because it shall be revealed by fire; and the fire shall try every man's work of what sort it is.
1Co 3:14 If any man's work abide which he hath built thereupon, he shall receive a reward.
1Co 3:15 If any man's work shall be burned, he shall suffer loss: but he himself shall be saved; yet so as by fire.
1Co 3:16 ¶ Know ye not that ye are the temple of God, and that the Spirit of God dwelleth in you?
1Co 3:17 If any man defile the temple of God, him shall God destroy; for the temple of God is holy, which temple ye are.
1Co 3:18 ¶ Let no man deceive himself. If any man among you seemeth to be wise in this world, let him become a fool, that he may be wise.

 

Some people get that all mixed up, & proclaim all types of ideas that do not match what the Bible proclaims. There's some strange preachers out there preaching some strange things with many people believing every word they proclaim & rebroadcasting it to others.

 

A Bible fact, your either saved by grace alone are your lost, no in betweens, & saved people will never lose their salvation being doomed for Hell.

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Salvation and citizenship were always intended to extend to the Gentiles (Gen 18:18, 22:18; Gal 3:8). It was not contingent upon the Jews accepting their Messiah.  Additionally, the Jews were not offered the Kingdom itself, for the Kingdom belongs only to God.  Rather they were offered entrance first.  References to the Kingdom of Heaven/God are not talking about an earthly reign (John 18:36), whereas the Millennial Kingdom is a literal earthly reign by Jesus for 1000 years following the tribulation until great white throne judgement (Rev 20).

 

However, I'm willing to consider your viewpoint if you can present a convincing Biblical argument.

Salvation and citizenship was intended to the Gentiles through the Jews. This is made very clear by Paul. Unto the Jews were the promises, law, covenants, etc. and unto the Jews was the kingdom of heaven offered and unto the Jews was the gospel we preach today first offered. We are wild olive branches grafted into the the olive tree.

 

You better run some of those verses again on the kingdom of heaven because you have UNSAVED people residing in it. Therefore, the kingdom of heaven is much more than the kingdom of God which a man enters through the new birth. Also, don't get the church confused with the kingdom. They are not the same. This is what the RCC has done in order to justify ruling over the kingdoms of the world.
 

 

Matthew 5:9-  Blessed are the peacemakers: for they shall be called the children of God.

 

Nobody is called a child of God by becoming a peacemaker. You are called a child of God by accepting Jesus Christ as your Savior. There are plenty of peacemakers who are children of the devil while many who cause division who are children of God (Matthew 10:34-37). In fact, if anything, most of the world's peacemakers are children of the devil.

 

Now you can find a devotional application for a believer in this age (ex. being a peaceful person will manifest Christ's spirit in you) in that verse but doctrinally speaking if you preach that a man becomes a child of God (or is even called one) by being a peacemaker you'd have every Pope stamping "Nihil obstat" upon what you teach. This will be true during the kingdom age but now it is a heresy.

 

The problem with many Baptists is the same problem with everyone of every denomination; they force the scripture to fit their Baptist beliefs and refuse to rightly divide the word of truth. The reason there are so many verses that teach a man can lose his salvation or a man needs an element of works in order to be saved is because it's true. Just not in this age. 

Edited by ASongOfDegrees

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During the millennium kingdom, an unbelieving, unsaved man can still end up in hell, yes. But it is because he is a sinner that has not accepted his Savior.  The answer goes to dispensations. We see from Hebrews 11 the list of saints from all dispensations that had faith, without which it is impossible to please God. We are told in Romans 5 that Abraham was saved by his faith. Rev. 5:9 & 7:14 speaks to the martyrs of the Tribulation period who have been washed and redeemed to God by the blood of Christ. In each of these dispensations mankind is saved by faith in the sacrifice of Christ - why should it be any different in the last period?  

 

 

 

The Great White Throne Judgement judges all the dead - those that had not been resurrected previously  as believers. This would include the unsaved dead of all ages. If your reasoning were correct, that would make all men of all time to be judged by their works - not just those of the millennium.  We see here, too, that the criteria for their doom - being cast into the lake of fire - will not be their works. It will be that their name is not written in the book of life.

 

 

 

No, salvation in the millennium will be by works. Pure obedience to God. How can it be by faith when Christ is right there sitting on the throne in plain sight? This is why you have those at the Great White Throne judgement being judged by their works. If they are saved or lost depending on accepting Jesus by faith then why judge them based on works? 

 

And yes, the unsaved dead Jews and Gentiles before the cross will be judged on the basis of works. Paul makes this clear in Romans 2:6-10. Unless you want to say they will all be tossed in hell for rejecting Christ which would be unjust seeing they never had a chance and, in fact, the gospel was not revealed until the NT. The Jews had to follow the law and the Gentiles had to follow their consciences.

 

This is why the gospel was, and still is, good news. Sinners in this age don't need to labor in good works and follow their consciences just to wind up in Abraham's bosom anymore. This would also explain why Jesus talked about judging ALL the "quick and the dead" in the "last day". That sure doesn't apply to anyone in this age who accepts him as their Savior. 

Edited by ASongOfDegrees

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Salvation and citizenship was intended to the Gentiles through the Jews. This is made very clear by Paul. Unto the Jews were the promises, law, covenants, etc. and unto the Jews was the kingdom of heaven offered and unto the Jews was the gospel we preach today first offered. We are wild olive branches grafted into the the olive tree.

 

You better run some of those verses again on the kingdom of heaven because you have UNSAVED people residing in it. Therefore, the kingdom of heaven is much more than the kingdom of God which a man enters through the new birth. Also, don't get the church confused with the kingdom. They are not the same. This is what the RCC has done in order to justify ruling over the kingdoms of the world.
 

 

Matthew 5:9-  Blessed are the peacemakers: for they shall be called the children of God.

 

Nobody is called a child of God by becoming a peacemaker. You are called a child of God by accepting Jesus Christ as your Savior. There are plenty of peacemakers who are children of the devil while many who cause division who are children of God (Matthew 10:34-37). In fact, if anything, most of the world's peacemakers are children of the devil.

 

Now you can find a devotional application for a believer in this age (ex. being a peaceful person will manifest Christ's spirit in you) in that verse but doctrinally speaking if you preach that a man becomes a child of God (or is even called one) by being a peacemaker you'd have every Pope stamping "Nihil obstat" upon what you teach. This will be true during the kingdom age but now it is a heresy.

 

The problem with many Baptists is the same problem with everyone of every denomination; they force the scripture to fit their Baptist beliefs and refuse to rightly divide the word of truth. The reason there are so many verses that teach a man can lose his salvation or a man needs an element of works in order to be saved is because it's true. Just not in this age. 

 

!00 % wrong. well nearly 100% wrong, even us Baptist have people that go by the name Baptist they teach falsely. With that said we Baptist go to the bible to see what God tells us to believe  not to defend what we believe. Seems you know little about us Baptist saying such words at this.

 

And no, there is no verses in the Bible that teaches a saved person can lose their salvation. Although there are verses that are used out of context to teach saved people can be lost. But that is expected, lost people have a very difficult time understanding the Word of God, they do not have the Holy Spirit within them to teach them.

 

Its so sad that your so mixed up on this subject.

 

So would you kindly tell us who your associate with? We now know how you truly feel about us Baptist, I underlined & place it in bold letter above, you made that known very plain in this post I'm replying to.

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