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Eric Stahl

Can You Explain This?

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John - I downloaded a (the?) chart of the same 4 views from Rose Publishing - who also have a discussion forum.  It does, of course, omit my understanding - a very serious omission.

 

It's in PDF format. I redid in DOC format, comparing the Preterist view, the Preterist-Premil view (my understanding) with the Disp Premil view. If I knew how to upload a DOC file, I would post it here. I'll try it as a sermon, & link if it works. 

 

 

 

I've not read the book myself, but others have recommended this book so I may read it sometime this year. In any event, some here might be interested so that's why I'm sharing this.

 

The Meaning of the Millennium: Four Views

 

Edited by Robert G. Clouse

 

Book Description
Publication Date: July 23, 1996 | Series: Spectrum Multiview Book
Christ is coming again.

Since the first century, Christians have agreed that Christ will return. But since that time there have also been many disagreements. How will Christ return? When will he return? What sort of kingdom will he establish? What is the meaning of the millennium? These questions persist today.

Four major views on the millennium have had both a long history and a host of Christian adherents. In this book Robert G. Clouse brings together proponents of each view: George Eldon Ladd on historic premillenniallism, Herman A. Hoyt on dispensational premillennialism, Loraine Boettner on post-millennialism and Anthony A. Hoekema on amillennialism.

After each view is presented, proponents of the three competing views respond from their own perspectives. Here you'll encounter a lively and productive debate among respected Christian scholars that will help you gain clearer and deeper understanding of the different ways the church approaches the meaning of the millennium.

 

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Thanks Ian.  However I think all three views are false.  All invented by Jesuits.  Preterism by Alcazar and futurism by Ribera, Balamine and others.

Rubbish, David - challenge the positions from Scripture, NOT by foolish accusations. 

 

Is there ANYTHING I have written that indicates an RC origin?

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Matt 24-why this can't all be past.

 

   vs 22: "And except those days should be shortened, there should no flesh be saved: but for the elect's sake those days shall be shortened."

 

   Vs. 24: "For there shall arise false Christs, and false prophets, and shall shew great signs and wonders; insomuch that, if [it were] possible, they shall deceive the very elect"

 

  vs. 31: "And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other."

 

Question: Who are the 'elect' being spoken of here? Israel, still living unsaved as Jews, or the born-again? If Jews, how are they elect, if they have rejected the Lord? How are they to be gathered by the angels., if not born-again? Or are they elect agthered together for destruction in Jerusalem?

 

If they are Israel, and are being agthered for salvation, again, why if they have rejected the Lord? And when did this gathering take place?

 

If the elect are the saved, they were never gathered, nor even in Jerusalem at that time, or in Israel-most of the Christians had been dispersed before 70AD due to the great persecution against them, thus finally obeying the Lord who told them to preach to the whole world, not just Jerusalem and Israel.

 

"And Saul was consenting unto his death. And at that time there was a great persecution against the church which was at Jerusalem; and they were all scattered abroad throughout the regions of Judaea and Samaria, except the apostles." Acts 8:1

 

"Therefore they that were scattered abroad went every where preaching the word."Acts 8:4

 

"Now they which were scattered abroad upon the persecution that arose about Stephen travelled as far as Phenice, and Cyprus, and Antioch, preaching the word to none but unto the Jews only."  Acts 11:19

 

Being scattered, there would be no reason for the elect to be concerned if what was happening was only to effect Israel and specifically, Jerusalem.

 

 

Next, the Bible tells us, in Matt 24:21, that there would be such great tribulation as had never been seen, nor that ever would be. Soooo, the destruction of Solomon's temple and the enslavement of both the kingdoms, Israel and Judah, was nowhere near as bad? The murders of 6 milion Jews in WWII was nothing compared? Certainly what happened in AD70 was terrible, but actually, Jews continued to live there for the next couple hundred years, unlike when they were all taken captive by Babylon.  And what about what Antiochus Epiphanies did in Jerusalem? he committed many atrocities, including the ceasing of the sacrifices, even sacrificing unclean animals on the altar. He murdered 40,000 in three days, and sent to slaverey as many. Just because he didn't destroy the temple physically, means it wasn't as bad?   No, much worse had happened before, and worse has happened since.

 

As well, the entire earth is in view in Matt 24, not just Israel and Judea.

 

"For nation shall rise against nation, and kingdom against kingdom: and there shall be famines, and pestilences, and earthquakes, in divers places." 

    We don't read of a major uptick in wars of nation against nation between 33AD and 70AD-nor the massive natural disasters mentioned. Neither biblically nor historically.

 

"And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory"

   So far as I know, the entire earth has not seen Christ coming in the clouds. This doesn't sound metaphorical, but literal. ALL tribes of the EARTH, not israel or Judah. And this corresponds to Zechariah 14, when Jesus lands on the mount of Olives, and splits it in two, when they people of Israel will see him whom they have pierced and mourn for Him as for an only son. These things haven't occurred yet.

 

Great Scott! It seems an awful lot of plain things need to be explained away and allegorized to fit a preterist/partial-preterist view.

 

I could go on, but I have things to do.

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Matt 24-why this can't all be past.

 

   vs 22: "And except those days should be shortened, there should no flesh be saved: but for the elect's sake those days shall be shortened."

 

   Vs. 24: "For there shall arise false Christs, and false prophets, and shall shew great signs and wonders; insomuch that, if [it were] possible, they shall deceive the very elect"

 

  vs. 31: "And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other."

 

Question: Who are the 'elect' being spoken of here? Israel, still living unsaved as Jews, or the born-again? If Jews, how are they elect, if they have rejected the Lord? How are they to be gathered by the angels., if not born-again? Or are they elect agthered together for destruction in Jerusalem?

Reading the Olivet prophecies, & other last week discourses & prophecies, the obvious understanding is that Jesus is referring to the judgement of the generation that rejected him. The temple & the city were destroyed within the lifetime of this generation, & the unbelieving Jews scattered. Malachi's prophecy was fulfilled.  

 

The "elect" are believers, chosen by God (we won't get sidetracked by "Calvinism".)  The days were shortened by a break in the siege allowing the Jewish believers to escape the city, as Jesus had warned.   

 

If they are Israel, and are being agthered for salvation, again, why if they have rejected the Lord? And when did this gathering take place?

 

If the elect are the saved, they were never gathered, nor even in Jerusalem at that time, or in Israel-most of the Christians had been dispersed before 70AD due to the great persecution against them, thus finally obeying the Lord who told them to preach to the whole world, not just Jerusalem and Israel.

 

"And Saul was consenting unto his death. And at that time there was a great persecution against the church which was at Jerusalem; and they were all scattered abroad throughout the regions of Judaea and Samaria, except the apostles." Acts 8:1

 

"Therefore they that were scattered abroad went every where preaching the word."Acts 8:4

 

"Now they which were scattered abroad upon the persecution that arose about Stephen travelled as far as Phenice, and Cyprus, and Antioch, preaching the word to none but unto the Jews only."  Acts 11:19

 

Being scattered, there would be no reason for the elect to be concerned if what was happening was only to effect Israel and specifically, Jerusalem.

So you think the believing Jews had no interest the their fellow Jews left in the land. Read Romans 9-11. Note also Acts 21:20 Thou seest, brother, how many thousands of Jews there are which believe;

 

Next, the Bible tells us, in Matt 24:21, that there would be such great tribulation as had never been seen, nor that ever would be. Soooo, the destruction of Solomon's temple and the enslavement of both the kingdoms, Israel and Judah, was nowhere near as bad? The murders of 6 milion Jews in WWII was nothing compared? Certainly what happened in AD70 was terrible, but actually, Jews continued to live there for the next couple hundred years, unlike when they were all taken captive by Babylon.  And what about what Antiochus Epiphanies did in Jerusalem? he committed many atrocities, including the ceasing of the sacrifices, even sacrificing unclean animals on the altar. He murdered 40,000 in three days, and sent to slaverey as many. Just because he didn't destroy the temple physically, means it wasn't as bad?   No, much worse had happened before, and worse has happened since.

Jesus tells us about the severity of the great tribulation, in the context of the destruction. Do you doubt his word? The fact is that God was destroying a nation that had seen their Messiah & his miracles, & further had rejected the Gospel freely proclaimed to them, both by unbelief & by persecution. This wasn't the hatred of a man like Hitler, but the days of vengeance of a Holy God. The curse Malachi warned. 

 

As well, the entire earth is in view in Matt 24, not just Israel and Judea.

 

"For nation shall rise against nation, and kingdom against kingdom: and there shall be famines, and pestilences, and earthquakes, in divers places." 

    We don't read of a major uptick in wars of nation against nation between 33AD and 70AD-nor the massive natural disasters mentioned. Neither biblically nor historically.

We do read of earthquakes & famines, & false christs in Acts. But note, these were not signs of the end:

Mat. 24:6 And ye shall hear of wars and rumours of wars: see that ye be not troubled: for all [these things] must come to pass, but the end is not yet.


 

"And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory"

   So far as I know, the entire earth has not seen Christ coming in the clouds. This doesn't sound metaphorical, but literal. ALL tribes of the EARTH, not israel or Judah. And this corresponds to Zechariah 14, when Jesus lands on the mount of Olives, and splits it in two, when they people of Israel will see him whom they have pierced and mourn for Him as for an only son. These things haven't occurred yet.

 

We need to be aware that words like "earth" & "world" have multiple meanings depending on context, & the Gk word. "Tribes" normally refers to the tribes of Israel (tribes of the land) so that prophecy quoted in Rev. 1, is not necessarily global. A straightforward reading of Rev. 1 leads us to expect John's readers to see the fulfilment of the prophecies. Read the OT for God coming in clouds, e.g. fire & cloud in the wilderness, &

1 Kings 8:10 And it came to pass, when the priests were come out of the holy [place], that the cloud filled the house of the LORD, So that the priests could not stand to minister because of the cloud: for the glory of the LORD had filled the house of the LORD.

 

 

Great Scott! It seems an awful lot of plain things need to be explained away and allegorized to fit a preterist/partial-preterist view.

No allegories, & no explaining away. Just read & compare Scripture with Scripture.

 

I could go on, but I have things to do.

We can all list problems with the understanding of others - but try to look at my basic Covenant/Preterist/Amil position & you will see that it is a consistent understanding of Scripture. You may not agree with everything (anything???) but we write to teach & to learn.

 

 

 

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Matt 24-why this can't all be past.

 

   vs 22: "And except those days should be shortened, there should no flesh be saved: but for the elect's sake those days shall be shortened."

 

   Vs. 24: "For there shall arise false Christs, and false prophets, and shall shew great signs and wonders; insomuch that, if [it were] possible, they shall deceive the very elect"

 

  vs. 31: "And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other."

 

Question: Who are the 'elect' being spoken of here? Israel, still living unsaved as Jews, or the born-again? If Jews, how are they elect, if they have rejected the Lord? How are they to be gathered by the angels., if not born-again? Or are they elect agthered together for destruction in Jerusalem?

 

If they are Israel, and are being agthered for salvation, again, why if they have rejected the Lord? And when did this gathering take place?

 

If the elect are the saved, they were never gathered, nor even in Jerusalem at that time, or in Israel-most of the Christians had been dispersed before 70AD due to the great persecution against them, thus finally obeying the Lord who told them to preach to the whole world, not just Jerusalem and Israel.

 

"And Saul was consenting unto his death. And at that time there was a great persecution against the church which was at Jerusalem; and they were all scattered abroad throughout the regions of Judaea and Samaria, except the apostles." Acts 8:1

 

"Therefore they that were scattered abroad went every where preaching the word."Acts 8:4

 

"Now they which were scattered abroad upon the persecution that arose about Stephen travelled as far as Phenice, and Cyprus, and Antioch, preaching the word to none but unto the Jews only."  Acts 11:19

 

Being scattered, there would be no reason for the elect to be concerned if what was happening was only to effect Israel and specifically, Jerusalem.

 

 

Next, the Bible tells us, in Matt 24:21, that there would be such great tribulation as had never been seen, nor that ever would be. Soooo, the destruction of Solomon's temple and the enslavement of both the kingdoms, Israel and Judah, was nowhere near as bad? The murders of 6 milion Jews in WWII was nothing compared? Certainly what happened in AD70 was terrible, but actually, Jews continued to live there for the next couple hundred years, unlike when they were all taken captive by Babylon.  And what about what Antiochus Epiphanies did in Jerusalem? he committed many atrocities, including the ceasing of the sacrifices, even sacrificing unclean animals on the altar. He murdered 40,000 in three days, and sent to slaverey as many. Just because he didn't destroy the temple physically, means it wasn't as bad?   No, much worse had happened before, and worse has happened since.

 

As well, the entire earth is in view in Matt 24, not just Israel and Judea.

 

"For nation shall rise against nation, and kingdom against kingdom: and there shall be famines, and pestilences, and earthquakes, in divers places." 

    We don't read of a major uptick in wars of nation against nation between 33AD and 70AD-nor the massive natural disasters mentioned. Neither biblically nor historically.

 

"And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory"

   So far as I know, the entire earth has not seen Christ coming in the clouds. This doesn't sound metaphorical, but literal. ALL tribes of the EARTH, not israel or Judah. And this corresponds to Zechariah 14, when Jesus lands on the mount of Olives, and splits it in two, when they people of Israel will see him whom they have pierced and mourn for Him as for an only son. These things haven't occurred yet.

 

Great Scott! It seems an awful lot of plain things need to be explained away and allegorized to fit a preterist/partial-preterist view.

 

I could go on, but I have things to do.

You're not going to get anywhere with Covenator or Invicta in this matter. You might as well just beat your head against a brick wall 'cause you'll get farther doing that than getting through to these two when it comes to matters of eschatology. You see, if a man believes that God is through with the nation of Israel and will never deal with them again then he'll steal all the promises from Israel that he can and apply them to the church. This is quite common in Europe where I believe these two brothers are from. I'm not saying they don't believe that Jews can't be saved but when it comes to corporate Israel they both believe that none of the biblical promises belong to Israel anymore except the promises of judgement and cursings . Those they make sure are still left alone for Israel. The positive promises? They hijack them all and puff themselves up against the root (Romans 11:18). 

 

If you doubt this just ask them if the modern day nation of Israel has the right to the land of Palestine.

Edited by ASongOfDegrees

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You're not going to get anywhere with Covenator or Invicta in this matter. You might as well just beat your head against a brick wall 'cause you'll get farther doing that than getting through to these two when it comes to matters of eschatology. You see, if a man believes that God is through with the nation of Israel and will never deal with them again then he'll steal all the promises from Israel that he can and apply them to the church. This is quite common in Europe where I believe these two brothers are from. I'm not saying they don't believe that Jews can't be saved but when it comes to corporate Israel they both believe that none of the biblical promises belong to Israel anymore except the promises of judgement and cursings . Those they make sure are still left alone for Israel. The positive promises? They hijack them all and puff themselves up against the root (Romans 11:18). 

 

If you doubt this just ask them if the modern day nation of Israel has the right to the land of Palestine.

Oftentimes in these sort of discussions it's the audience that learns and grows regardless of whether the main debaters come to a point of changing their views on something. So long as we don't resort to personal attacks, but keep the debates aimed at making biblical points, they can benefit others.

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You're not going to get anywhere with Covenator or Invicta in this matter. You might as well just beat your head against a brick wall 'cause you'll get farther doing that than getting through to these two when it comes to matters of eschatology. You see, if a man believes that God is through with the nation of Israel and will never deal with them again then he'll steal all the promises from Israel that he can and apply them to the church. This is quite common in Europe where I believe these two brothers are from. I'm not saying they don't believe that Jews can't be saved but when it comes to corporate Israel they both believe that none of the biblical promises belong to Israel anymore except the promises of judgement and cursings . Those they make sure are still left alone for Israel. The positive promises? They hijack them all and puff themselves up against the root (Romans 11:18). 

 

If you doubt this just ask them if the modern day nation of Israel has the right to the land of Palestine.

 

Not everything we have learned is truly Biblical - we are taught by men who have a limited understanding. We learn as we read the Scriptures, & our own understanding develops.

 

When you read posts like mine you may not agree, but you will (hopefully) see the reasoning that leads to my position, as I do yours.

 

Is there ANYTHING in the teaching of Jesus & his Apostles that suggests that "the modern day nation of Israel has the right to the land of Palestine." Teach me.

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Not everything we have learned is truly Biblical - we are taught by men who have a limited understanding. We learn as we read the Scriptures, & our own understanding develops.

 

When you read posts like mine you may not agree, but you will (hopefully) see the reasoning that leads to my position, as I do yours.

 

Is there ANYTHING in the teaching of Jesus & his Apostles that suggests that "the modern day nation of Israel has the right to the land of Palestine." Teach me.

 

 

The fulfillment of the following prophecy proves that God believes the present nation of Israel are some of the true people for the land of Israel which Rome called Palestine.

 

ISRAEL TODAY

 

The Lord judged Israel in 70 AD

 

Isaiah 30:18-27

18 And therefore will the LORD wait, that he may be gracious unto you, and therefore will he be exalted, that he may have mercy upon you: for the LORD is a God of judgment: blessed are all they that wait for him.

 

(Israel has been given another chance to repent. They have destroyed their idols so God has given them rain for their crops and leadership again. They were allowed back in the land in 1948 and given Jerusalem in 1967)

 

 

 

19 For the people shall dwell in Zion at Jerusalem: thou shalt weep no more: he will be very gracious unto thee at the voice of thy cry; when he shall hear it, he will answer thee.

20 And though the Lord give you the bread of adversity, and the water of affliction, yet shall not thy teachers be removed into a corner any more, but thine eyes shall see thy teachers:

21 And thine ears shall hear a word behind thee, saying, This is the way, walk ye in it, when ye turn to the right hand, and when ye turn to the left.

22 Ye shall defile also the covering of thy graven images of silver, and the ornament of thy molten images of gold: thou shalt cast them away as a menstruous cloth; thou shalt say unto it, Get thee hence.

23 Then shall he give the rain of thy seed, that thou shalt sow the ground withal; and bread of the increase of the earth, and it shall be fat and plenteous: in that day shall thy cattle feed in large pastures.

24 The oxen likewise and the young asses that ear the ground shall eat clean provender, which hath been winnowed with the shovel and with the fan.

 

(Israel’s time is running out! Judgment is coming soon. (Zephaniah 1:14-2:3)

 

 

25 And there shall be upon every high mountain, and upon every high hill, rivers and streams of waters in the day of the great slaughter, when the towers fall.

26 Moreover the light of the moon shall be as the light of the sun, and the light of the sun shall be sevenfold, as the light of seven days, in the day that the LORD bindeth up the breach of his people, and healeth the stroke of their wound.

27 Behold, the name of the LORD cometh from far, burning with his anger, and the burden thereof is heavy: his lips are full of indignation, and his tongue as a devouring fire:

28 And his breath, as an overflowing stream, shall reach to the midst of the neck, to sift the nations with the sieve of vanity: and there shall be a bridle in the jaws of the people, causing them to err.

29 Ye shall have a song, as in the night when a holy solemnity is kept; and gladness of heart, as when one goeth with a pipe to come into the mountain of the LORD, to the mighty One of Israel.

30 And the LORD shall cause his glorious voice to be heard, and shall shew the lighting down of his arm, with the indignation of his anger, and with the flame of a devouring fire, with scattering, and tempest, and hailstones.

31 For through the voice of the LORD shall the Assyrian be beaten down, which smote with a rod.

32 And in every place where the grounded staff shall pass, which the LORD shall lay upon him, it shall be with tabrets and harps: and in battles of shaking will he fight with it.

33 For Tophet is ordained of old; yea, for the king it is prepared; he hath made it deep and large: the pile thereof is fire and much wood; the breath of the LORD, like a stream of brimstone, doth kindle it.

 

(Judgment by nuclear fire will come soon to Israel and the world. It will be sent by God see

 Jeremiah 25:15-38)

Edited by Eric Stahl

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Not everything we have learned is truly Biblical - we are taught by men who have a limited understanding. We learn as we read the Scriptures, & our own understanding develops.

 

When you read posts like mine you may not agree, but you will (hopefully) see the reasoning that leads to my position, as I do yours.

 

Is there ANYTHING in the teaching of Jesus & his Apostles that suggests that "the modern day nation of Israel has the right to the land of Palestine." Teach me.

Very true-too often the teachings of men cloud our views. Let's explore that, shall we?

 

You said in your reply to my post, "We need to be aware that words like "earth" & "world" have multiple meanings depending on context," and "Tribes" normally refers to the tribes of Israel"

 

 This is true. So, the context says, "All the tribes of the earth" Yes, often tribes refers to the tribes of Israel-roughly 60 times in the Bible it says "tribes of Israel". In this case, it says "tinbes of the earth". It seems to me that the bulk of the evidence says that if it means tribes of Israel, it normally SAYS tribes of Israel. Out of 112 ocurances in the Bible of the word 'tribes", all but three are clearly referencing Israel in the context-those other three are clearly referencing something else: Isaiah 19:13, referencing the tribes, or people of Egypt, and the other two, Hab 3:9 and Matt 24:30, with a clear context of the whole earth.

 

My point in this being, the context when speaking f the tribes of Israel are extremely clear that it is Israel-why now, in this place, use 'earth' to refer to Israel? And don't tell me that it is because, since He is speaking to Israel, they would automatically reference it to themselves and so should we, because virtually each time it is used otherwise, it is being spoken to Israel,    Because of this, I believe the cear refence MUST be found in the context of 'earth', and that being a view of the entire planet, all the people everywhere. The context is clearly not the dirt, nor the dry land, but the earth as a whole. The Bible is clear, and anything else assumed outside of the clear context MUST be a teaching of man clouding the issue.

 

As for the Lord coming in the clouds to take His people out, the Bible is also cleaqr that it should be taken literally. Rev 1:7; Rev 14:14; 1Thes 4:17, all speak of a literal occurance, and two speak clearly of a physical removal, a physical resurrection, where we will be taken and join the Lord in the cloud. An event which has not yet occurred. And the reference you gave me from 1Kings 8:10 is an example of a literal occurance.

 

You said, "We do read of earthquakes & famines, & false christs in Acts. But note, these were not signs of the end:"

 

Yes, and we still read of them But what we don't read about are wars, rumors of war and nations rising against nations. Al these things might have been occurring, but not such as to make one sit up and take notice. The Bible doesn't say they are not signs of the end, just that they are not the end, in and of themselves. thus, everytime we see a war in the Middle East, we shouldn't say, "Oh! This is it! Here comes Jesus!" Just because there are disasters, man-made or natural, doesn't mean its the end.  Which is, in fact, what you say-that the attack on Jerusalem and destruction of the temple were the end-yet Jesus said this was NOT the end when such things happened. No, in fact, we are told to beware of peace. "For when they shall say, Peace and safety; then sudden destruction cometh upon them, as travail upon a woman with child; and they shall not escape." (1Thes 5:3). As far as I know fom history, the desuction of the temple did not occur because of a false peace: there WAS no peace.

 

On top of this, Titus ordered them NOT to destroy the temple, but to allow it to stand, most likely to beter maintain order after the defeat of Jerusalem. It was, however, the soldiers who, disobeying his orders, that destryed it in anger for the Jews' resistance. Titus also never stood in the temple delcaring himself to be God.

 

So, the events of AD70 could not be what Jesus is speaking of in the bulk of Matt 24, nor could the book of the Revelation be referring to the events around and of AD 70. Jesus DID declare the destruction of the temple, but the Antichrist, at the end, will have it rebuilt, and then stand in the holiest place and declare himself god. Thisw hasn't hapened-not with Antiochus Epiphanies, not with Titus.

 

 

As for Israel-the modern-day nation. I absolutely believe it is their land, as the Lord declared it always would be, that when He returns, (physically) to earth, (the planet), He will return to the Mount of Olives, whch will split and all those being destroyed inside to escape through it, (Zech 14:3-6). This has not occurred, so we can't say it is past. This is declared to be when Jesus will reign from Jerusalem on the throne of David, and that all the earth will come and worship at Jerusalem, which has also not yet occurred. During that time, all the animals and all the pts will be holiness unto the Lord, not just those which were holy under the law, (Zech 14:17-21).

 

Since none of these things have yet occurred, as far as I know, then it must be referencing future events-thus Israel is seen in the land until the end, the coming of the Lord Jesus Christ as King of kings.

 

The current state of Israel can be understood in the prophecy of Ezekiel about the valley of dry bones, (Eze 37). Israel is currently at the point of the bones which have been covered in flesh, but are without life. Physically, Israel is present in the land, but spiritually, they are dead; at some point he Lord will return and they will mourn for Him when they se Him and know Him for who He is, and they will believe and repent, and then, the breath of life will be restored to them.

Edited by Ukulelemike

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Oftentimes in these sort of discussions it's the audience that learns and grows regardless of whether the main debaters come to a point of changing their views on something. So long as we don't resort to personal attacks, but keep the debates aimed at making biblical points, they can benefit others.

If you want to call a rebuke an personal attack than have at it.

 

The bottomline is men like Covenantor, as godly as he may be in some matters,  would have no problem with Israel being driven out of Palestine by the Muslims. Yea, they may even support the Muslims in the process.

 

Just ask him. If I'm wrong I'll apologize.

Edited by ASongOfDegrees

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You're not going to get anywhere with Covenator or Invicta in this matter. You might as well just beat your head against a brick wall 'cause you'll get farther doing that than getting through to these two when it comes to matters of eschatology. You see, if a man believes that God is through with the nation of Israel and will never deal with them again then he'll steal all the promises from Israel that he can and apply them to the church. This is quite common in Europe where I believe these two brothers are from. I'm not saying they don't believe that Jews can't be saved but when it comes to corporate Israel they both believe that none of the biblical promises belong to Israel anymore except the promises of judgement and cursings . Those they make sure are still left alone for Israel. The positive promises? They hijack them all and puff themselves up against the root (Romans 11:18). 

 

If you doubt this just ask them if the modern day nation of Israel has the right to the land of Palestine.

 

 Yes I believe in the restoration of Israel, a restoration to salvation in the gospel.

 

 

If you doubt this just ask them if the modern day nation of Israel has the right to the land of Palestine.

 

 

 

Yes I do.

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Very true-too often the teachings of men cloud our views. Let's explore that, shall we?

 

You said in your reply to my post, "We need to be aware that words like "earth" & "world" have multiple meanings depending on context," and "Tribes" normally refers to the tribes of Israel"

 

 This is true. So, the context says, "All the tribes of the earth" Yes, often tribes refers to the tribes of Israel-roughly 60 times in the Bible it says "tribes of Israel". In this case, it says "tinbes of the earth". It seems to me that the bulk of the evidence says that if it means tribes of Israel, it normally SAYS tribes of Israel. Out of 112 ocurances in the Bible of the word 'tribes", all but three are clearly referencing Israel in the context-those other three are clearly referencing something else: Isaiah 19:13, referencing the tribes, or people of Egypt, and the other two, Hab 3:9 and Matt 24:30, with a clear context of the whole earth.

 

My point in this being, the context when speaking f the tribes of Israel are extremely clear that it is Israel-why now, in this place, use 'earth' to refer to Israel? And don't tell me that it is because, since He is speaking to Israel, they would automatically reference it to themselves and so should we, because virtually each time it is used otherwise, it is being spoken to Israel,    Because of this, I believe the cear refence MUST be found in the context of 'earth', and that being a view of the entire planet, all the people everywhere. The context is clearly not the dirt, nor the dry land, but the earth as a whole. The Bible is clear, and anything else assumed outside of the clear context MUST be a teaching of man clouding the issue.

 

As for the Lord coming in the clouds to take His people out, the Bible is also cleaqr that it should be taken literally. Rev 1:7; Rev 14:14; 1Thes 4:17, all speak of a literal occurance, and two speak clearly of a physical removal, a physical resurrection, where we will be taken and join the Lord in the cloud. An event which has not yet occurred. And the reference you gave me from 1Kings 8:10 is an example of a literal occurance.

 

You said, "We do read of earthquakes & famines, & false christs in Acts. But note, these were not signs of the end:"

 

Yes, and we still read of them But what we don't read about are wars, rumors of war and nations rising against nations. Al these things might have been occurring, but not such as to make one sit up and take notice. The Bible doesn't say they are not signs of the end, just that they are not the end, in and of themselves. thus, everytime we see a war in the Middle East, we shouldn't say, "Oh! This is it! Here comes Jesus!" Just because there are disasters, man-made or natural, doesn't mean its the end.  Which is, in fact, what you say-that the attack on Jerusalem and destruction of the temple were the end-yet Jesus said this was NOT the end when such things happened. No, in fact, we are told to beware of peace. "For when they shall say, Peace and safety; then sudden destruction cometh upon them, as travail upon a woman with child; and they shall not escape." (1Thes 5:3). As far as I know fom history, the desuction of the temple did not occur because of a false peace: there WAS no peace.

 

On top of this, Titus ordered them NOT to destroy the temple, but to allow it to stand, most likely to beter maintain order after the defeat of Jerusalem. It was, however, the soldiers who, disobeying his orders, that destryed it in anger for the Jews' resistance. Titus also never stood in the temple delcaring himself to be God.

 

So, the events of AD70 could not be what Jesus is speaking of in the bulk of Matt 24, nor could the book of the Revelation be referring to the events around and of AD 70. Jesus DID declare the destruction of the temple, but the Antichrist, at the end, will have it rebuilt, and then stand in the holiest place and declare himself god. Thisw hasn't hapened-not with Antiochus Epiphanies, not with Titus.

 

 

As for Israel-the modern-day nation. I absolutely believe it is their land, as the Lord declared it always would be, that when He returns, (physically) to earth, (the planet), He will return to the Mount of Olives, whch will split and all those being destroyed inside to escape through it, (Zech 14:3-6). This has not occurred, so we can't say it is past. This is declared to be when Jesus will reign from Jerusalem on the throne of David, and that all the earth will come and worship at Jerusalem, which has also not yet occurred. During that time, all the animals and all the pts will be holiness unto the Lord, not just those which were holy under the law, (Zech 14:17-21).

 

Since none of these things have yet occurred, as far as I know, then it must be referencing future events-thus Israel is seen in the land until the end, the coming of the Lord Jesus Christ as King of kings.

 

The current state of Israel can be understood in the prophecy of Ezekiel about the valley of dry bones, (Eze 37). Israel is currently at the point of the bones which have been covered in flesh, but are without life. Physically, Israel is present in the land, but spiritually, they are dead; at some point he Lord will return and they will mourn for Him when they se Him and know Him for who He is, and they will believe and repent, and then, the breath of life will be restored to them.

They've been told these things millions of time and nobody has budged on anything.

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 Yes I believe in the restoration of Israel, a restoration to salvation in the gospel.

 

 

Yes I do.

Wait a minute, I just reread what you typed. 

 

Do you believe they have right to the land? Do you believe they will eventually be restored nationally to God as the chosen nation of God whom shall fulfill the promises of Abraham and David to them?

Edited by ASongOfDegrees

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Rubbish, David - challenge the positions from Scripture, NOT by foolish accusations. 

 

Is there ANYTHING I have written that indicates an RC origin?

 

Hello Ian

 

How are you doing?

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If you want to call a rebuke an personal attack than have at it.

 

The bottomline is men like Covenantor, as godly as he may be in some matters,  would have no problem with Israel being driven out of Palestine by the Muslims. Yea, they may even support the Muslims in the process.

 

Just ask him. If I'm wrong I'll apologize.

I spoke in general terms for a reason, I wasn't addressing anyone here, only making a general point about such matters.

 

With regards to Israel, it doesn't matter what you, I or another think, God will plant and/or remove as He pleases.

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"Earth" (Gk "ge") is often translated "land"  - AVearth 188, land 42, ground 18, country 2, world 1

 

The first occurrence in Mat. is And thou Bethlehem, [in] the land1093 of Juda so tribes of the earth may in context mean tribes of the land. To insist on "earth" meaning the planet is unsound. What does it mean in context? The translation is ambiguous. As "tribes" normally refers to the tribes of Israel, "tribes of the land" is a reasonable understanding of the phrase translated "tribes if the earth." [That is NOT arguing with the KJV, but understanding it in context.]

 

I asked, "Is there ANYTHING in the teaching of Jesus & his Apostles that suggests that "the modern day nation of Israel has the right to the land of Palestine." Teach me." Both Eric & Uk-mike only quoted the OT prophets. I repeat, are there any occasions when Jesus & his Apostles taught that Israel would be reinstated in the land? NT only please. The OT prophets relate to the return from the Babylon captivity. In fact even the OT prophets warned those who rejected their Messiah:

 

Acts 3:22 For Moses truly said unto the fathers, A prophet shall the Lord your God raise up unto you of your brethren, like unto me; him shall ye hear in all things whatsoever he shall say unto you.

23 And it shall come to pass, that every soul, which will not hear that prophet, shall be destroyed from among the people.

24 Yea, and all the prophets from Samuel and those that follow after, as many as have spoken, have likewise foretold of these days.

25 Ye are the children of the prophets, and of the covenant which God made with our fathers, saying unto Abraham, And in thy seed shall all the kindreds of the earth be blessed.

26 Unto you first God, having raised up his Son Jesus, sent him to bless you, in turning away every one of you from his iniquities.

 

 Malachi 4:Behold, I will send you Elijah the prophet before the coming of the great and dreadful day of the Lord:

And he shall turn the heart of the fathers to the children, and the heart of the children to their fathers, lest I come and smite the earth with a curse.

 

Mat. 3:But when he saw many of the Pharisees and Sadducees come to his baptism, he said unto them, O generation of vipers, who hath warned you to flee from the wrath to come?

Bring forth therefore fruits meet for repentance:

And think not to say within yourselves, We have Abraham to our father: for I say unto you, that God is able of these stones to raise up children unto Abraham.

10 And now also the axe is laid unto the root of the trees: therefore every tree which bringeth not forth good fruit is hewn down, and cast into the fire.

 

1 Thes. 2:

14 For ye, brethren, became followers of the churches of God which in Judaea are in Christ Jesus: for ye also have suffered like things of your own countrymen, even as they have of the Jews:

15 Who both killed the Lord Jesus, and their own prophets, and have persecuted us; and they please not God, and are contrary to all men:

16 Forbidding us to speak to the Gentiles that they might be saved, to fill up their sins alway: for the wrath is come upon them to the uttermost.

 

We all come to Christ in repentance, for salvation as individuals, & the Jews are called to repentance, & they are welcome (regrafted) if the abide not in unbelief. National deliverance, & national judgement occur throughout the OT, but personal salvation - heart circumcision - a living faith - was always called for.

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Wait a minute, I just reread what you typed. 

 

Do you believe they have right to the land? Do you believe they will eventually be restored nationally to God as the chosen nation of God whom shall fulfill the promises of Abraham and David to them?

 

I believe that the time they were to exiled was limited.  Lu 21:24  And they shall fall by the edge of the sword, and shall be led away captive into all nations: and Jerusalem shall be trodden down of the Gentiles, until the times of the Gentiles be fulfilled.

 

As they are back in the land, I believe that the times  of the gentiles has been fulfilled.I believe there will be a mass conversion of the Jews when the fullness of the gentiles is come in.

 

21  For if God spared not the natural branches, take heed lest he also spare not thee.
22  Behold therefore the goodness and severity of God: on them which fell, severity; but toward thee, goodness, if thou continue in his goodness: otherwise thou also shalt be cut off.
23  And they also, if they abide not still in unbelief, shall be graffed in: for God is able to graff them in again.
24  For if thou wert cut out of the olive tree which is wild by nature, and wert graffed contrary to nature into a good olive tree: how much more shall these, which be the natural branches, be graffed into their own olive tree?
25  For I would not, brethren, that ye should be ignorant of this mystery, lest ye should be wise in your own conceits; that blindness in part is happened to Israel, until the fulness of the Gentiles be come in.
26  And so all Israel shall be saved: as it is written, There shall come out of Sion the Deliverer, and shall turn away ungodliness from Jacob:
27  For this is my covenant unto them, when I shall take away their sins.
 
I do not believe that the church has replaced Israel, but that it is part of Israel as the above verses show.  I believe that there will  be a mass conversion of Jews when the fulness of the Gentiles be come in.

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I believe that the time they were to exiled was limited.  Lu 21:24  And they shall fall by the edge of the sword, and shall be led away captive into all nations: and Jerusalem shall be trodden down of the Gentiles, until the times of the Gentiles be fulfilled.

 

As they are back in the land, I believe that the times  of the gentiles has been fulfilled.I believe there will be a mass conversion of the Jews when the fullness of the gentiles is come in.

 

21  For if God spared not the natural branches, take heed lest he also spare not thee.
22  Behold therefore the goodness and severity of God: on them which fell, severity; but toward thee, goodness, if thou continue in his goodness: otherwise thou also shalt be cut off.
23  And they also, if they abide not still in unbelief, shall be graffed in: for God is able to graff them in again.
24  For if thou wert cut out of the olive tree which is wild by nature, and wert graffed contrary to nature into a good olive tree: how much more shall these, which be the natural branches, be graffed into their own olive tree?
25  For I would not, brethren, that ye should be ignorant of this mystery, lest ye should be wise in your own conceits; that blindness in part is happened to Israel, until the fulness of the Gentiles be come in.
26  And so all Israel shall be saved: as it is written, There shall come out of Sion the Deliverer, and shall turn away ungodliness from Jacob:
27  For this is my covenant unto them, when I shall take away their sins.
 
I do not believe that the church has replaced Israel, but that it is part of Israel as the above verses show.  I believe that there will  be a mass conversion of Jews when the fulness of the Gentiles be come in.

 

Isaiah 4:1-6

1 And in that day seven women shall take hold of one man, saying, We will eat our own bread, and wear our own apparel: only let us be called by thy name, to take away our reproach.

2 In that day shall the branch of the LORD be beautiful and glorious, and the fruit of the earth shall be excellent and comely for them that are escaped of Israel.

3 And it shall come to pass, that he that is left in Zion, and he that remaineth in Jerusalem, shall be called holy, even every one that is written among the living in Jerusalem:

 

(Only holy Jews will survive the tribulation judgment by fire!)

 

 

4 When the Lord shall have washed away the filth of the daughters of Zion, and shall have purged the blood of Jerusalem from the midst thereof by the spirit of judgment, and by the spirit of burning.

 

(God will rescue the holy Jews.)

 

5 And the LORD will create upon every dwelling place of mount Zion, and upon her assemblies, a cloud and smoke by day, and the shining of a flaming fire by night: for upon all the glory shall be a defence.

6 And there shall be a tabernacle for a shadow in the day time from the heat, and for a place of refuge, and for a covert from storm and from rain.

 

Zechariah 13:7-9

7 Awake, O sword, against my shepherd, and against the man that is my fellow, saith the LORD of hosts: smite the shepherd, and the sheep shall be scattered: and I will turn mine hand upon the little ones.

8 And it shall come to pass, that in all the land, saith the LORD, two parts therein shall be cut off and die; but the third shall be left therein.

9 And I will bring the third part through the fire, and will refine them as silver is refined, and will try them as gold is tried: they shall call on my name, and I will hear them: I will say, It is my people: and they shall say, The LORD is my God.

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Very true-too often the teachings of men cloud our views. Let's explore that, shall we?

......

We need to look at principles - I've replied to a lot of arguments in detail, but we must be clear in our thinking, & the hermeneutic we use. In particular, the emphasis on OT prophecy to establish our doctrine concerning modern Israel is questionable.  Especially as such teaching is not supported in the NT.

.....

As for Israel-the modern-day nation. I absolutely believe it is their land, as the Lord declared it always would be, that when He returns, (physically) to earth, (the planet), He will return to the Mount of Olives, whch will split and all those being destroyed inside to escape through it, (Zech 14:3-6). This has not occurred, so we can't say it is past. This is declared to be when Jesus will reign from Jerusalem on the throne of David, and that all the earth will come and worship at Jerusalem, which has also not yet occurred. During that time, all the animals and all the pts will be holiness unto the Lord, not just those which were holy under the law, (Zech 14:17-21).

 

So you believe Israel is back as promised in the land, only for 2/3 of them to be slaughtered at Armageddon when Eric & his mates move in wielding their 2-edged swords. And that glorious millennium of perfect peace will end in world-wide rebellion & only fire from heaven (not Eric & his mates wielding their 2-edged swords) will save the situation.

 

PLEEEEEEEZ think through your thinking. Question what you have been taught.

 

Since none of these things have yet occurred, as far as I know, then it must be referencing future events-thus Israel is seen in the land until the end, the coming of the Lord Jesus Christ as King of kings.

 

The current state of Israel can be understood in the prophecy of Ezekiel about the valley of dry bones, (Eze 37). Israel is currently at the point of the bones which have been covered in flesh, but are without life. Physically, Israel is present in the land, but spiritually, they are dead; at some point he Lord will return and they will mourn for Him when they se Him and know Him for who He is, and they will believe and repent, and then, the breath of life will be restored to them.

 

No. Ezekiel prophesied to the exiles, to encourage them. Their state of mind is seen in Lamentations. They were restored, & the temple rebuilt. Maybe not in all the detail, but if that temple is a future glorious temple, of which it can be said "the LORD is there" then it will be a gross afront to our LORD Jesus as animal sacrifices for sin are resumed.

 

When Peter preached the risen LORD Jesus, & the fulfilment of prophecy, the Jews in their thousands did mourn for their sins, & repent & call on the name of Jesus for salvation. And they did receive the breath of life, as the Holy Spirit was poured out on them.

 

You must seek to understand the OT  by the NT, & not take up the Galatian heresy.  

 

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We need to look at principles - I've replied to a lot of arguments in detail, but we must be clear in our thinking, & the hermeneutic we use. In particular, the emphasis on OT prophecy to establish our doctrine concerning modern Israel is questionable.  Especially as such teaching is not supported in the NT.

 

"For I would not, brethren, that ye should be ignorant of this mystery, lest ye should be wise in your own conceits; that blindness in part is happened to Israel, until the fulness of the Gentiles be come in. And so all Israel shall be saved: as it is written, There shall come out of Sion the Deliverer, and shall turn away ungodliness from Jacob: For this [is] my covenant unto them, when I shall take away their sins. As concerning the gospel, [they are] enemies for your sakes: but as touching the election, [they are] beloved for the fathers' sakes. For the gifts and calling of God [are] without repentance. For as ye in times past have not believed God, yet have now obtained mercy through their unbelief: Even so have these also now not believed, that through your mercy they also may obtain mercy. For God hath concluded them all in unbelief, that he might have mercy upon all.

O the depth of the riches both of the wisdom and knowledge of God! how unsearchable [are] his judgments, and his ways past finding out!"  (Rom 11:25-33)

 

I believe this passage makes it clear that God is not through with Israel, on a national level. The Deliverer will STILL come out of Sion and will turn ungodliness from Jacob, (Not us, as spiritual Israel, but Jacob, national Israel). Remember when the Lord made His covenant with Abraham, only the Lord passed through the blood. In the normal cutting of a covenant, both parties involved in the covenant would walk up and down in the blood of the animal/s killed and declare the terms of the covenant. In this case, only God did, meaning He understood that only He could keep the covenant . He made Himself the only one who had to keep the covenant. That Israel had broken it did not make it null and void-the bottom line of it still stands, for it stands in God, not man, (like our salvation), as Paul says here, "For this is my covenant unto them, when I shall take away their sins."

 

So you believe Israel is back as promised in the land, only for 2/3 of them to be slaughtered at Armageddon when Eric & his mates move in wielding their 2-edged swords. And that glorious millennium of perfect peace will end in world-wide rebellion & only fire from heaven (not Eric & his mates wielding their 2-edged swords) will save the situation.

 

PLEEEEEEEZ think through your thinking. Question what you have been taught.

 

These are not things I have been 'taught', but have come to understand through study. And no, 2/3 will not be slaughtered when Eric and his mates come in-I absolutely disagree with his description, as well. Only Jesus as King will wield the sword of Hs mouth. The 2/3 killed will be killed by the armies of the nations.

 

"Awake, O sword, against my shepherd, and against the man [that is] my fellow, saith the LORD of hosts: smite the shepherd, and the sheep shall be scattered: and I will turn mine hand upon the little ones. And it shall come to pass, [that] in all the land, saith the LORD, two parts therein shall be cut off [and] die; but the third shall be left therein.

And I will bring the third part through the fire, and will refine them as silver is refined, and will try them as gold is tried: they shall call on my name, and I will hear them: I will say, It [is] my people: and they shall say, The LORD [is] my God." (Zech 13:7-9)

 

Remember, they are still rejecting Christ up to this point, so some are allowed to die at the hands, not of Christians, but the armies of the nations that will come against Israel. It is at this point that the Lord will return to the Mount of Olives, bring the 1/3 through and destroy the armies of the nations. Even Paul agrees that the deliverer out of Sion is yet to come, and when He dies, it will not be as in AD70, with their destruction and ruin, but with their forgiveness and salvation.

This is why the events in Zechariah 12 -14 are so important to understand-they are the fulfillment of this covenant, when the Lord will return TO Jerusalem to redeem His people. When they see Him they will mourn for Him whom they pierced, (must be a reference to Jesus Christ). and thus, those left will be saved. Sometimes we can still learn a lot from the Old Testament.

 

And yes, the milennium WILL end in the destruction of the army of Satan. However, if you beleve it is a milennium of perfect peace, you misunderstand what it is. The Bible tells us that Jesus will rule, not with a feather, but with a rod of iron-a theocratic dictatorship, if you will. And we will sit as judges to judge the nations under Him. If there are judges and a rod of iron, it tells me there will still be sin and trouble, as there will still be those in the natural flesh living. We won't have the problems that come with corrupt governments and rulers, but there will still be flesh, thus, sinAnd yes, Satan will be let out of his prison and rally followers-because some will still be in the flesh and subject to sin, and I suspect there will be groups who see this reign of Jesus as a terrible affront to their rights and wants and will oppose Him.

My opinion as to why, and yes, I clarify that this is my opinion, is so that all will be without excuse at the judgment-many will perish in their sins and be cast into the lake of fire, even after seeing Christ in the flesh, after witnessing His perfect rule and haing every opportuity to receive Him as Saviour and Lord, yet they will willingly and knowingly reject Him, just as the Pharisees did. Every mouth will be stopped before Him at the judgment.  But again, this is my opinion.

When Peter preached the risen LORD Jesus, & the fulfilment of prophecy, the Jews in their thousands did mourn for their sins, & repent & call on the name of Jesus for salvation. And they did receive the breath of life, as the Holy Spirit was poured out on them.

 

So they did-yet later, Paul still speaks of the redeemer coming to forgive the sns of Israel, which means it was yet future. This is not what happened in AD70. As well, you can't point to one small part of the prophecy in Zechariah and say the whole was fulfiled, while ignoring the rest.

 

You must seek to understand the OT  by the NT, & not take up the Galatian heresy.

 

The Galatian heresey wasn't learning from prophecy, but holding to the law. This isn't what I am suggesting. I am saying that prophecy of Israel in the end times is still good-The Lord has not cast them off, even if they have cast Him off, for the covenant laid not in them,but in God. After the fullness of the Gentiles has come, as Paul said, the blindness will be taken away and a remnant will be saved.

Edited by Ukulelemike

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Thanks, David, for responding to my challenge to provide NT support for a future for national Israel.

 

Invicta:

 

I believe that the time they were to exiled was limited.  Lu 21:24  And they shall fall by the edge of the sword, and shall be led away captive into all nations: and Jerusalem shall be trodden down of the Gentiles, until the times of the Gentiles be fulfilled.

 

What does Jesus say comes after the times of the Gentiles?" Further judgements & warning signs, but he does not prophesy a reinstatement & glorious future for national Israel. Why should he? He has repeatedly warned them throughout the last week of the consequences of their rejection of him.

 

You then indicate that Paul prophesies what comes after:

 


Invicta:

As they are back in the land, I believe that the times  of the gentiles has been fulfilled.I believe there will be a mass conversion of the Jews when the fullness of the gentiles is come in.

 

21  For if God spared not the natural branches, take heed lest he also spare not thee.
22  Behold therefore the goodness and severity of God: on them which fell, severity; but toward thee, goodness, if thou continue in his goodness: otherwise thou also shalt be cut off.
23  And they also, if they abide not still in unbelief, shall be graffed in: for God is able to graff them in again.
24  For if thou wert cut out of the olive tree which is wild by nature, and wert graffed contrary to nature into a good olive tree: how much more shall these, which be the natural branches, be graffed into their own olive tree?
25  For I would not, brethren, that ye should be ignorant of this mystery, lest ye should be wise in your own conceits; that blindness in part is happened to Israel, until the fulness of the Gentiles be come in.
26  And so all Israel shall be saved: as it is written, There shall come out of Sion the Deliverer, and shall turn away ungodliness from Jacob:
27  For this is my covenant unto them, when I shall take away their sins.
 
I do not believe that the church has replaced Israel, but that it is part of Israel as the above verses show.  I believe that there will  be a mass conversion of Jews when the fulness of the Gentiles be come in.

 

 

Paul has made it clear that salvation is on an individual basis, & he teaches salvation at this present time also there is a remnant according to the election of grace. Throughout Romans he has stressed the faith aspect of salvation, & taught that believing Gentiles are truly Jews, whereas unbelieving Jews are NOT Jews. "All Israel" therefore is made up of believing Jew & Gentile as one redeemed people of God.

 

He is here teaching the grafting in of Gentiles into the Israel olive tree, so repeating with a different metaphor that believing Gentiles truly comprise Israel, together with believing Jews. Paul then makes the statement: blindness in part is happened to Israel, until the fulness of the Gentiles be come in. And so all Israel shall be saved:

 

I've looked very carefully at that statement, and I cannot see a prophecy that Israel as a nation will be restored to the promised land. Its about salvation. Paul then quotes Isaiah & Jeremiah:

26  And so all Israel shall be saved: as it is written, There shall come out of Sion the Deliverer, and shall turn away ungodliness from Jacob:
27  For this is my covenant unto them, when I shall take away their sins.

 

Isaiah was prophesying before the captivity and is here prophesying Christ. Jeremiah is prophesying the New Covenant, inaugurated at Jesus' last supper & ratified by his death & resurrection. 

 

It would be wonderful if there were a great revival of the Jews - but given their continuing rejection of their Messiah, & determination to establish a Jewish state, I do not see the supposed return to the land as fulfilment of any NT prophecy. God is well able to save them anywhere on earth - as Paul found through his missionary preaching. Israel comprises all the redeemed people of God, saved by our LORD Jesus by the blood of the everlasting covenant.

 

 

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We need to look at principles - I've replied to a lot of arguments in detail, but we must be clear in our thinking, & the hermeneutic we use. In particular, the emphasis on OT prophecy to establish our doctrine concerning modern Israel is questionable.  Especially as such teaching is not supported in the NT.

 

"For I would not, brethren, that ye should be ignorant of this mystery, lest ye should be wise in your own conceits; that blindness in part is happened to Israel, until the fulness of the Gentiles be come in. And so all Israel shall be saved: as it is written, There shall come out of Sion the Deliverer, and shall turn away ungodliness from Jacob: For this [is] my covenant unto them, when I shall take away their sins. As concerning the gospel, [they are] enemies for your sakes: but as touching the election, [they are] beloved for the fathers' sakes. For the gifts and calling of God [are] without repentance. For as ye in times past have not believed God, yet have now obtained mercy through their unbelief: Even so have these also now not believed, that through your mercy they also may obtain mercy. For God hath concluded them all in unbelief, that he might have mercy upon all.

O the depth of the riches both of the wisdom and knowledge of God! how unsearchable [are] his judgments, and his ways past finding out!"  (Rom 11:25-33)

 

I believe this passage makes it clear that God is not through with Israel, on a national level. The Deliverer will STILL come out of Sion and will turn ungodliness from Jacob, (Not us, as spiritual Israel, but Jacob, national Israel). Remember when the Lord made His covenant with Abraham, only the Lord passed through the blood. In the normal cutting of a covenant, both parties involved in the covenant would walk up and down in the blood of the animal/s killed and declare the terms of the covenant. In this case, only God did, meaning He understood that only He could keep the covenant . He made Himself the only one who had to keep the covenant. That Israel had broken it did not make it null and void-the bottom line of it still stands, for it stands in God, not man, (like our salvation), as Paul says here, "For this is my covenant unto them, when I shall take away their sins."

 

So you believe Israel is back as promised in the land, only for 2/3 of them to be slaughtered at Armageddon when Eric & his mates move in wielding their 2-edged swords. And that glorious millennium of perfect peace will end in world-wide rebellion & only fire from heaven (not Eric & his mates wielding their 2-edged swords) will save the situation.

 

PLEEEEEEEZ think through your thinking. Question what you have been taught.

 

These are not things I have been 'taught', but have come to understand through study. And no, 2/3 will not be slaughtered when Eric and his mates come in-I absolutely disagree with his description, as well. Only Jesus as King will wield the sword of Hs mouth. The 2/3 killed will be killed by the armies of the nations.

 

"Awake, O sword, against my shepherd, and against the man [that is] my fellow, saith the LORD of hosts: smite the shepherd, and the sheep shall be scattered: and I will turn mine hand upon the little ones. And it shall come to pass, [that] in all the land, saith the LORD, two parts therein shall be cut off [and] die; but the third shall be left therein.

And I will bring the third part through the fire, and will refine them as silver is refined, and will try them as gold is tried: they shall call on my name, and I will hear them: I will say, It [is] my people: and they shall say, The LORD [is] my God." (Zech 13:7-9)

 

Remember, they are still rejecting Christ up to this point, so some are allowed to die at the hands, not of Christians, but the armies of the nations that will come against Israel. It is at this point that the Lord will return to the Mount of Olives, bring the 1/3 through and destroy the armies of the nations. Even Paul agrees that the deliverer out of Sion is yet to come, and when He dies, it will not be as in AD70, with their destruction and ruin, but with their forgiveness and salvation.

This is why the events in Zechariah 12 -14 are so important to understand-they are the fulfillment of this covenant, when the Lord will return TO Jerusalem to redeem His people. When they see Him they will mourn for Him whom they pierced, (must be a reference to Jesus Christ). and thus, those left will be saved. Sometimes we can still learn a lot from the Old Testament.

 

And yes, the milennium WILL end in the destruction of the army of Satan. However, if you beleve it is a milennium of perfect peace, you misunderstand what it is. The Bible tells us that Jesus will rule, not with a feather, but with a rod of iron-a theocratic dictatorship, if you will. And we will sit as judges to judge the nations under Him. If there are judges and a rod of iron, it tells me there will still be sin and trouble, as there will still be those in the natural flesh living. We won't have the problems that come with corrupt governments and rulers, but there will still be flesh, thus, sinAnd yes, Satan will be let out of his prison and rally followers-because some will still be in the flesh and subject to sin, and I suspect there will be groups who see this reign of Jesus as a terrible affront to their rights and wants and will oppose Him.

My opinion as to why, and yes, I clarify that this is my opinion, is so that all will be without excuse at the judgment-many will perish in their sins and be cast into the lake of fire, even after seeing Christ in the flesh, after witnessing His perfect rule and haing every opportuity to receive Him as Saviour and Lord, yet they will willingly and knowingly reject Him, just as the Pharisees did. Every mouth will be stopped before Him at the judgment.  But again, this is my opinion.

When Peter preached the risen LORD Jesus, & the fulfilment of prophecy, the Jews in their thousands did mourn for their sins, & repent & call on the name of Jesus for salvation. And they did receive the breath of life, as the Holy Spirit was poured out on them.

 

So they did-yet later, Paul still speaks of the redeemer coming to forgive the sns of Israel, which means it was yet future. This is not what happened in AD70. As well, you can't point to one small part of the prophecy in Zechariah and say the whole was fulfiled, while ignoring the rest.

 

You must seek to understand the OT  by the NT, & not take up the Galatian heresy.

 

The Galatian heresey wasn't learning from prophecy, but holding to the law. This isn't what I am suggesting. I am saying that prophecy of Israel in the end times is still good-The Lord has not cast them off, even if they have cast Him off, for the covenant laid not in them,but in God. After the fullness of the Gentiles has come, as Paul said, the blindness will be taken away and a remnant will be saved.

 

 

Mike you make me smile. It is like telling someone on the end of a pew some thing and telling them to pass it on. the message changes till it gets to the other end of the pew. You need to read my posts again.

 

Habakkuk 3:11-13

11The sun and moon stood still in their habitation: at the light of thine arrows they went,(((notice))) and at the shining of thy glittering spear.

12 Thou didst march through the land in indignation, thou didst thresh the heathen in anger.

13 Thou wentest forth for the salvation of thy people, even for salvation with thine anointed; thou woundedst the head out of the house of the wicked, by discovering the foundation unto the neck. Selah.

 

(((We saints will go to Armageddon to save the survivors of Israel.)))

 

(((The 2/3 of the Jews that die will be killed by war and fire sent by God to ethnicly clense Israel. Isaiah 4:1-4.)))

 

 

Isaiah 4:1-6

1 And in that day seven women shall take hold of one man, saying, We will eat our own bread, and wear our own apparel: only let us be called by thy name, to take away our reproach.

2 In that day shall the branch of the LORD be beautiful and glorious, and the fruit of the earth shall be excellent and comely for them that are escaped of Israel.

3 And it shall come to pass, that he that is left in Zion, and he that remaineth in Jerusalem, shall be called holy, even every one that is written among the living in Jerusalem:

 

(Only holy Jews will survive the tribulation judgment by fire!)

 

 

4 When the Lord shall have washed away the filth of the daughters of Zion, and shall have purged the blood of Jerusalem from the midst thereof by the spirit of judgment, and by the spirit of burning.

Edited by Eric Stahl

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