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Eric Stahl

Can You Explain This?

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I would have no problem with the text saying a 2 edged sword, there is certainly precedent for using it as such, but we must keep the word of God in context because for whatever reason, God did not spell it out the way that you are explaining this.

 

Revelation 14 says that the sickle was used to gather the vines, but verse 20 tells you why blood came out of the winepress: because the grapes were trodden. 

 

If you have studied how wine was made in the winepresses, they gathered clusters of grapes and put them in one area and then the grapes were stomped on. This is also the meaning behind Romans 16:20, "And the God of peace shall bruise Satan under your feet shortly".

 

It is certainly possible that it could be both; Christ slaying them with His word, and us "trampling out the vintage", but it is Christ that uses the word, and us doing the stomping. Whatever is coming from the mouth of Christ is something that Christ has specifically prepared from Him to Satan for that occasion. 

 

We are still participating in the marriage supper of the Lamb which includes being part of the slaughter of the heathen. As long as Jesus Christ gets the credit for His part in it, I don't think it is really necessary to debate how anyone carries out any collateral damage.

 

Dr James,

 

I would be interested in your understanding of Psalm 149:4-9

 

 

Psalm 149:4-9

4 For the LORD taketh pleasure in his people: he will beautify the meek with salvation.

5 Let the saints be joyful in glory: let them sing aloud upon their beds.

6 Let the high praises of God be in their mouth, and a two-edged sword in their hand;

7 To execute vengeance upon the heathen, and punishments upon the people;

8 To bind their kings with chains, and their nobles with fetters of iron;

9 To execute upon them the judgment written: this honour have all his saints. Praise ye the LORD.

 

 

 

and

 

Amos 8:9-9:1

9 And it shall come to pass in that day, saith the Lord GOD, that I will cause the sun to go down at noon, and I will darken the earth in the clear day:

 10 And I will turn your feasts into mourning, and all your songs into lamentation; and I will bring up sackcloth upon all loins, and baldness upon every head; and I will make it as the mourning of an only son, and the end thereof as a bitter day.

11 Behold, the days come, saith the Lord GOD, that I will send a famine in the land, not a famine of bread, nor a thirst for water, but of hearing the words of the LORD:

12 And they shall wander from sea to sea, and from the north even to the east, they shall run to and fro to seek the word of the LORD, and shall not find it.

13 In that day shall the fair virgins and young men faint for thirst.

14 They that swear by the sin of Samaria, and say, Thy god, O Dan, liveth; and, The manner of Beersheba liveth; even they shall fall, and never rise up again.

 

9:1

1 I saw the LORD standing upon the altar: and he said, Smite the lintel of the door, that the posts may shake: and cut them in the head, all of them; and I will slay the last of them with the sword: he that fleeth of them shall not flee away, and he that escapeth of them shall not be delivered.

Edited by Eric Stahl

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To all,

 

The two-edged swords will cause real bleeding!

 

The Scriptures also use the image of a  "Two-edged sword" in Hebrews 4: 12 to describe the Word of God....Even Going so far as saying it "pierces" and "divides"

For the word of God [is] quick, and powerful, and sharper than any twoedged sword, piercing even to the dividing asunder of soul and spirit, and of the joints and marrow, and [is] a discerner of the thoughts and intents of the heart

But I think it is obvious that in THAT context, the Scriptures are not implying a physical "bleeding".  Similarly, we see the same image in the book of Revelation, wherein the "sword" which will indeed slay (and physically) proceeds from the MOUTH of Jesus...the "Word made flesh" slays with his "word" which is indeed a sword.

 

But, I still see no Scriptures where the Saints wield such a sword with the purpose of slaying the wicked in a physical manner. 

Edited by Heir of Salvation

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The Scriptures also use the image of a  "Two-edged sword" in Hebrews 4: 12 to describe the Word of God....Even Going so far as saying it "pierces" and "divides"

For the word of God [is] quick, and powerful, and sharper than any twoedged sword, piercing even to the dividing asunder of soul and spirit, and of the joints and marrow, and [is] a discerner of the thoughts and intents of the heart

But I think it is obvious that in THAT context, the Scriptures are not implying a physical "bleeding".  Similarly, we see the same image in the book of Revelation, wherein the "sword" which will indeed slay (and physically) proceeds from the MOUTH of Jesus...the "Word made flesh" slays with his "word" which is indeed a sword.

 

But, I still see no Scriptures where the Saints wield such a sword with the purpose of slaying the wicked in a physical manner. 

 

It was the first post.

 

Psalm 149:4-9

4 For the LORD taketh pleasure in his people: he will beautify the meek with salvation.

5 Let the saints be joyful in glory: let them sing aloud upon their beds.

6 Let the high praises of God be in their mouth, and a two-edged sword in their hand;

7 To execute vengeance upon the heathen, and punishments upon the people;

8 To bind their kings with chains, and their nobles with fetters of iron;

9 To execute upon them the judgment written: this honour have all his saints. Praise ye the LORD.

 

Also

 

Amos 8:9-9:1

9 And it shall come to pass in that day, saith the Lord GOD, that I will cause the sun to go down at noon, and I will darken the earth in the clear day:

 10 And I will turn your feasts into mourning, and all your songs into lamentation; and I will bring up sackcloth upon all loins, and baldness upon every head; and I will make it as the mourning of an only son, and the end thereof as a bitter day.

11 Behold, the days come, saith the Lord GOD, that I will send a famine in the land, not a famine of bread, nor a thirst for water, but of hearing the words of the LORD:

12 And they shall wander from sea to sea, and from the north even to the east, they shall run to and fro to seek the word of the LORD, and shall not find it.

13 In that day shall the fair virgins and young men faint for thirst.

14 They that swear by the sin of Samaria, and say, Thy god, O Dan, liveth; and, The manner of Beersheba liveth; even they shall fall, and never rise up again.

 

9:1

1 I saw the LORD standing upon the altar: and he said, Smite the lintel of the door, that the posts may shake: and cut them in the head, all of them; and I will slay the last of them with the sword: he that fleeth of them shall not flee away, and he that escapeth of them shall not be delivered.

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282Mikado, on 18 May 2013 - 11:43 AM, said:snapback.png


I disagree. I would think that their are many who do not have a clear understanding of the various interpretations presented here (myself included) and wouuld benefit from getting all the questions posed, answered. Dr. James again asked very pertinent questions/statements in posts # 67 and #68 that would seem to shake the preterist view. I would think that the only reason further discussion would be futile is because you have no answer to those questions/statements.

John81, on 18 May 2013 - 2:52 PM, said:

While some such discussions do fall into the futile category, I do like reading and studying the differing viewponts on these matters. It helps to hear each sides view put forth and then read the questions, answers and rebuttals which follow.

There are some who claim their view on the matter is 100% solid, but so far I've not seen anyone who can put forth any view at 100%. There are holes, gaps and some varying possibilities involved that seem to make 100% impossible to achieve.

That said, I do believe one or two views come far closer to 100% than the others. Even so, I keep in mind how certain most Jews were, including the religious leaders, as to who the coming Messiah would be, what He would do, and how He would go about things. As it turned out, most were very wrong.

The main point of the fact Jesus will be returning soon should be as motivation for each of us to pursue growing in Christ and being about the Father's business as if we may be with Him today. AMEN!

I have answered point by point, & am accused of missing the odd point, & there my answers are rejected.

The covenant/amil/preterist position I hold needs to be made positively, as a stated way of reading Scripture, so here goes:

Covenant
At the last supper, Passover time, Jesus states: Likewise also the cup after supper, saying, This cup [is] the new testament in my blood, which is shed for you. Luke 22:20 Testament & covenant are the same word, with the same meaning in Scripture. What is a covenant? A promise by God to protect & bless his people, on condition of obedience, but with penalties for disobedience.

Lev. 26:3 If ye walk in my statutes, and keep my commandments, and do them;
....
9 For I will have respect unto you, and make you fruitful, and multiply you, and establish my covenant with you.
10 And ye shall eat old store, and bring forth the old because of the new.
11 And I set my tabernacle among you: and my soul shall not abhor you.
12 And I will walk among you, and will be your God, and ye shall be my people.


There follows the consequences of disobedience, & a promise of ultimate restoration. Paul in 2 Cor. 6 establishes the Gentile believers are counted into the covenant promise, & Rev. 21 sees the covenant perfectly ratified in the NH&NE.

Why a NEW covenant in Jesus' blood? Because all mankind are guilty of disobedience - covenant breaking, & Jesus took our nature, & as man, suffered the penalty our sins against the covenant. The new covenant in his blood is better, unbreakable. See Heb. 8, quoting Jer. 31.

Preterist
God's dealings with mankind are centred of Jesus - Son of God & Son of man. OT prophecy focuses on Jesus, so that many times Jesus refers to OT prophecy, & even deliberately engineers it, as in his triumphal entry, rejection, death & resurrection. After his resurrection he explains,
25 Then he said unto them, O fools, and slow of heart to believe all that the prophets have spoken:
26 Ought not Christ to have suffered these things, and to enter into his glory? 27 And beginning at Moses and all the prophets, he expounded unto them in all the scriptures the things concerning himself.


The NC focus is on Jesus, not national Israel, & we see in the last week warnings & parables that there is a dreadful end coming on those who rejected him, within a generation, therefore within 40 years - AD 70. The Apostles knew they were living in the end times or last days. Acts 2 shows the Joel 2 prophecy fulfilled.

The KJV translates at least 4 different Gk words as "world" so we need to examine the context & usage to see whether "world" refers to the Roman Empire, the age, or creation (all in Mat 24) so we cannot assume "the end of the world" is yet future, when it concerns the prophesied destruction, declared to take place before that generation passes.

A simple reading of Rev. 1 shows that it is written for its readers. NOT for a people living in a future age. The seals - the 4 horsemen - are prophesied in Jer. 15 & Eze. 14 as 4 judgements against Jerusalem. And why should Jesus explain in terms of Antichrist & his activities. God is bringing about the judgements - notice in the Gk the prevailing (nike) Lion-Lamb as the white horseman goes forth conquering & to conquer. (nike, nike) The victory Jesus won on the cross against Satan continues as he triumphs over his enemies who rejected him. He IS King of kings & Lord of lords.

And in Rev. 11 we see the destruction of temple & Jerusalem prophesied. There is no doubt that Rev. was written before the destruction. We do not need Irenaeus & co to tell us otherwise.

Amil
OT prophecy looks for an idyllic & unbroken eternal kingdom. 9 They shall not hurt nor destroy in all my holy mountain: for the earth shall be full of the knowledge of the Lord, as the waters cover the sea. Isaiah 11:9 The Rev. 20 millennium is not like that. John sees the souls of the martyrs, living & reigning with Christ, enjoying the first resurrection. (Salvation - see John 5:24 ff) They've died, & are enjoying heavenly life, awaiting resurrection to the NH&NE.

Jesus bound Satan, the "strong man" at the cross, & proceeded to destroy those still in his power - particularly the Jewish leaders. 44 Ye are of your father the devil, and the lusts of your father ye will do. John 8 That victory allowed time for repentance of the rebels, as the Apostles constantly preached. Their satanic hatred was finally silenced with the destruction. Specifically Satan was bound so that he could no longer deceive the nations, for whom there had been no Gospel prior to Pentecost. Some were saved by repentance & faith, but the Jews did not have a commission, nor a Gospel for the nations. Satan & his human minions were silenced with the destruction. 16 Forbidding us to speak to the Gentiles that they might be saved, to fill up their sins alway: for the wrath is come upon them to the uttermost. (1 Thes. 2) The question is to whether the hatred & persecution experienced by believers down the ages is generated by a free Satan or by wicked men without the direct activity of Satan.

[Firefox had to close at this point - PLT I found the autosaved content.]

Note Rev. 17:And the angel said unto me, Wherefore didst thou marvel? I will tell thee the mystery of the woman, and of the beast that carrieth her, which hath the seven heads and ten horns.

The beast that thou sawest was, and is not; and shall ascend out of the bottomless pit, and go into perdition: and they that dwell on the earth shall wonder, whose names were not written in the book of life from the foundation of the world, when they behold the beast that was, and is not, and yet is.

 

Amil teaches that Satan is bound, but the wickedness of men deceived by Satan continues. The gates of hell are opened, & cannot hold back one redeemed sinner. We are living in the millennium in a world where Christ reigns, but he is longsuffering, so the wicked live on, with the Gospel of salvation for all who repent.

 

Before Jesus returns, there will be a final short-lived rebellion when the saints will be beleaguered. That rebellion will end with the return of Christ who will destroy the wicked in the fire of hell.

Rev. 20:And they went up on the breadth of the earth, and compassed the camp of the saints about, and the beloved city: and fire came down from God out of heaven, and devoured them. See also 2 Thes, 1.

 

No, we will not be given 2-edged swords to slay the wicked. Jesus will return to raise the dead, destroy the wicked, & glorify his saints.

 

Which is a manifest token of the righteous judgment of God, that ye may be counted worthy of the kingdom of God, for which ye also suffer:

Seeing it is a righteous thing with God to recompense tribulation to them that trouble you;

And to you who are troubled rest with us, when the Lord Jesus shall be revealed from heaven with his mighty angels, In flaming fire taking vengeance on them that know not God, and that obey not the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ: Who shall be punished with everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord, and from the glory of his power;

10 When he shall come to be glorified in his saints, and to be admired in all them that believe (because our testimony among you was believed) in that day.

 

Amen!! Hallelujah!!

 

That, in outline, shows the way to understand Scripture. There are, of course, lots of questions & challenges, but we must look for the answers in Scripture, not in the writings of Tim & Jerry & their ilk, nor in Scofield & those who repeat his teachings.

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Not having studied this very thoroughly in the past it may take me a while to come up to speed, but the first issue I guess I would have is the whole millennium period if we state that Satan was bound at the cross or in 70 AD. Bear with me as I write as I think (this could get scary! :bigshock: )

 

First, the word millennium is found nowhere in the Bible, but "a thousand years" is and it would be this that our term millennium refers to.

 

Revelation 20:2-3 states:  And he laid hold on the dragon, that old serpent, which is the Devil, and Satan, and bound him a thousand years, 3 And cast him into the bottomless pit, and shut him up, and set a seal upon him, that he should deceive the nations no more, till the thousand years should be fulfilled: and after that he must be loosed a little season.

 

...so Satan was bound for 1,000 years. That is pretty specific. Now you stated that Jesus bound Satan at the cross, yet Revelation 20:1-2 states And I saw an angel come down from heaven, having the key of the bottomless pit and a great chain in his hand. 2 And he laid hold on the dragon, that old serpent, which is the Devil, and Satan, and bound him a thousand years,

 

This opens several questions in my mind.

 

1. Who bound Satan, Jesus or an angel?

2. Was Satan bound at the cross, or in 70 AD?

3. If he was bound for 1000 years the latest he could have been released is 1070 AD upon which time he would have gathered his army. I don't recall anything that would match this even remotely until you come to WWI and you don't sound like someone that follows the teaching of C.T. Russell so I won't go there.

 

Revelation 20:6-8 Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years. 7 And when the thousand years are expired, Satan shall be loosed out of his prison, 8 And shall go out to deceive the nations which are in the four quarters of the earth, Gog and Magog, to gather them together to battle: the number of whom is as the sand of the sea.

 

In the first seven verses of Revelation 20 "thousand years" is stated six times. That makes it sound to me like it should be taken literally, yet I see no historical evidence to support this period ever ending.

 

Then I read:

 

Revelation 20:4-5 And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years. 5 But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection. 6 Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years.

 

4. Who are these people that did not receive the mark, and who are the people in history that did receive this mark?

5. If those that did not receive the mark were resurrected then that would mean that their bodies would no longer be buried here on earth. Do we know this to be true?

6. Where did they reign? Certainly not here on earth as their return and impact would have been obvious.

7. It is rather obvious that Revelation 20:9 and beyond certainly has not happened yet. How does this get resolved seeing we are now nearly 2,000 years past the time when Satan was bound and the millennium began?

 

Again, I am not attacking or maligning, I am honestly in the process of coming up to speed on this topic. It is very interesting, but there is an awful lot to wrap one's mind around.

Edited by 282Mikado

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It was the first post.

 

Psalm 149:4-9

4 For the LORD taketh pleasure in his people: he will beautify the meek with salvation.

5 Let the saints be joyful in glory: let them sing aloud upon their beds.

6 Let the high praises of God be in their mouth, and a two-edged sword in their hand;

7 To execute vengeance upon the heathen, and punishments upon the people;

8 To bind their kings with chains, and their nobles with fetters of iron;

9 To execute upon them the judgment written: this honour have all his saints. Praise ye the LORD.

 

Also

 

Amos 8:9-9:1

9 And it shall come to pass in that day, saith the Lord GOD, that I will cause the sun to go down at noon, and I will darken the earth in the clear day:

 10 And I will turn your feasts into mourning, and all your songs into lamentation; and I will bring up sackcloth upon all loins, and baldness upon every head; and I will make it as the mourning of an only son, and the end thereof as a bitter day.

11 Behold, the days come, saith the Lord GOD, that I will send a famine in the land, not a famine of bread, nor a thirst for water, but of hearing the words of the LORD:

12 And they shall wander from sea to sea, and from the north even to the east, they shall run to and fro to seek the word of the LORD, and shall not find it.

13 In that day shall the fair virgins and young men faint for thirst.

14 They that swear by the sin of Samaria, and say, Thy god, O Dan, liveth; and, The manner of Beersheba liveth; even they shall fall, and never rise up again.

 

9:1

1 I saw the LORD standing upon the altar: and he said, Smite the lintel of the door, that the posts may shake: and cut them in the head, all of them; and I will slay the last of them with the sword: he that fleeth of them shall not flee away, and he that escapeth of them shall not be delivered.

I will give a better response later to this as I have a full weekend. But to keep things in perspective, often times there are prophecies embedded in the explanation of events that were contemporary to the passage. The temptation can be sometimes to recognize that a passage is prophetical, and then explain the entire context in light of the prophecy which makes the entire context future, instead of seeing the passage in its historical context with a prophecy mentioned in the midst of it.

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I've not read the book myself, but others have recommended this book so I may read it sometime this year. In any event, some here might be interested so that's why I'm sharing this.

 

The Meaning of the Millennium: Four Views

 

Edited by Robert G. Clouse

 

Book Description
Publication Date: July 23, 1996 | Series: Spectrum Multiview Book
Christ is coming again.

Since the first century, Christians have agreed that Christ will return. But since that time there have also been many disagreements. How will Christ return? When will he return? What sort of kingdom will he establish? What is the meaning of the millennium? These questions persist today.

Four major views on the millennium have had both a long history and a host of Christian adherents. In this book Robert G. Clouse brings together proponents of each view: George Eldon Ladd on historic premillenniallism, Herman A. Hoyt on dispensational premillennialism, Loraine Boettner on post-millennialism and Anthony A. Hoekema on amillennialism.

After each view is presented, proponents of the three competing views respond from their own perspectives. Here you'll encounter a lively and productive debate among respected Christian scholars that will help you gain clearer and deeper understanding of the different ways the church approaches the meaning of the millennium.

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Not having studied this very thoroughly in the past it may take me a while to come up to speed, but the first issue I guess I would have is the whole millennium period if we state that Satan was bound at the cross or in 70 AD. Bear with me as I write as I think (this could get scary! :bigshock: )

 

First, the word millennium is found nowhere in the Bible, but "a thousand years" is and it would be this that our term millennium refers to.

 

Revelation 20:2-3 states:  And he laid hold on the dragon, that old serpent, which is the Devil, and Satan, and bound him a thousand years, 3 And cast him into the bottomless pit, and shut him up, and set a seal upon him, that he should deceive the nations no more, till the thousand years should be fulfilled: and after that he must be loosed a little season.

 

...so Satan was bound for 1,000 years. That is pretty specific. Now you stated that Jesus bound Satan at the cross, yet Revelation 20:1-2 states And I saw an angel come down from heaven, having the key of the bottomless pit and a great chain in his hand. 2 And he laid hold on the dragon, that old serpent, which is the Devil, and Satan, and bound him a thousand years,

 

This opens several questions in my mind.

 

1. Who bound Satan, Jesus or an angel?

2. Was Satan bound at the cross, or in 70 AD?

3. If he was bound for 1000 years the latest he could have been released is 1070 AD upon which time he would have gathered his army. I don't recall anything that would match this even remotely until you come to WWI and you don't sound like someone that follows the teaching of C.T. Russell so I won't go there.

 

Revelation 20:6-8 Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years. 7 And when the thousand years are expired, Satan shall be loosed out of his prison, 8 And shall go out to deceive the nations which are in the four quarters of the earth, Gog and Magog, to gather them together to battle: the number of whom is as the sand of the sea.

 

In the first seven verses of Revelation 20 "thousand years" is stated six times. That makes it sound to me like it should be taken literally, yet I see no historical evidence to support this period ever ending.

 

Then I read:

 

Revelation 20:4-5 And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years. 5 But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection. 6 Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years.

 

4. Who are these people that did not receive the mark, and who are the people in history that did receive this mark?

5. If those that did not receive the mark were resurrected then that would mean that their bodies would no longer be buried here on earth. Do we know this to be true?

6. Where did they reign? Certainly not here on earth as their return and impact would have been obvious.

7. It is rather obvious that Revelation 20:9 and beyond certainly has not happened yet. How does this get resolved seeing we are now nearly 2,000 years past the time when Satan was bound and the millennium began?

 

Again, I am not attacking or maligning, I am honestly in the process of coming up to speed on this topic. It is very interesting, but there is an awful lot to wrap one's mind around.

 

I second these questions. I think this is an interesting debate and I am open to understanding this preterist point of view but Mikado has brought up some very pointed MAJOR questions that I see critically important and yet unreconciled.

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I second these questions. I think this is an interesting debate and I am open to understanding this preterist point of view but Mikado has brought up some very pointed MAJOR questions that I see critically important and yet unreconciled.

Brother Rick who is a member in here has a great little booklet on Preterism. You can find it here:

 

http://www.amazon.com/Problems-Preterism-Revelation-Means-ebook/dp/B006WEHLH8/ref=cm_cr_pr_product_top

Edited by ASongOfDegrees

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I second these questions. I think this is an interesting debate and I am open to understanding this preterist point of view but Mikado has brought up some very pointed MAJOR questions that I see critically important and yet unreconciled.

About Satan

 

Satan is the prince of this world and the power of the air now.

 

Ephesians 2:1-5

1 And you hath he quickened, who were dead in trespasses and sins;

2 Wherein in time past ye walked according to the course of this world, according to the prince of the power of the air, the spirit that now worketh in the children of disobedience:

3 Among whom also we all had our conversation in times past in the lusts of our flesh, fulfilling the desires of the flesh and of the mind; and were by nature the children of wrath, even as others.

4 But God, who is rich in mercy, for his great love wherewith he loved us,

5 Even when we were dead in sins, hath quickened us together with Christ, (by grace ye are saved;)

 

Satan has freedom to come to earth and go to the throne of God now.

 

Revelation 12:6-14

6 Then jthe woman(Israel) fled into the wilderness, where she has a place prepared by God, that they should feed her there kone thousand two hundred and sixty days.(Last half of the tribulation)

7 And there was war in heaven: Michael and his angels fought against the dragon; and the dragon fought and his angels,

8 And prevailed not; neither was their place found any more in heaven.

9 And the great dragon was cast out, that old serpent, called the Devil, and Satan, which deceiveth the whole world: he was cast out into the earth, and his angels were cast out with him.

 10 And I heard a loud voice saying in heaven, Now is come salvation, and strength, and the kingdom of our God, and the power of his Christ: for the accuser of our brethren is cast down, which accused them before our God day and night.(Satan doing now!)

11 And they overcame him by the blood of the Lamb, and by the word of their testimony; and they loved not their lives unto the death.

12 Therefore rejoice, ye heavens, and ye that dwell in them. Woe to the inhabiters of the earth and of the sea! for the devil is come down unto you, having great wrath, because he knoweth that he hath but a short time.

13 And when the dragon saw that he was cast unto the earth, he persecuted the woman which brought forth the man child.

14 And to the woman were given two wings of a great eagle, that she might fly into the wilderness, into her place, where she is nourished for a time, and times, and half a time,(Last half of the tribulation) from the face of the serpent(Satan).

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Thanks Song

 

John81's book mentioned has great reviews but introduces two other points of view of the end times, YOU TRYING MAKE HEAD EXPLODE!

 

After rereading this thread and looking at previous discussions on here, I have lost interest on it. None of Mikado's or Doc James points are even close to reconciled.

 

Ends times falling away (obvious to me)

Rapture (clearly explained in the Word)

7 year tribulation (same)

Earthly return of Christ and Armageddon (same)

1000 year reign (same)

New Heaven and Earth (same)

 

the 2000-1000 year problem can't be overcome

The Rapture can't be reconciled

Our current world being reigned by Christ (ARE YOU KIDDING ME, you would have to live in a hole with a group of Godly christians-completely cut off from the world to even imagine that). The whole world is blind even more so than the garden serpent could have hoped for.

and several other issues with preterism discussed by severals folks on here.

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Another proble with a preterist point of view, is that it assumes everything is concerning Israel-nothing else, yet the Bile makes clear that the entire world and earth are in view. Yes, Israel plays a major role, but the whole earth is affected.

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Brother Rick who is a member in here has a great little booklet on Preterism. You can find it here:

 

http://www.amazon.com/Problems-Preterism-Revelation-Means-ebook/dp/B006WEHLH8/ref=cm_cr_pr_product_top

Have you read the outline, & the 1-star reviews?

 

"Poorly written & researched."  "Refuting his own misunderstanding."

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Not having studied this very thoroughly in the past it may take me a while to come up to speed, but the first issue I guess I would have is the whole millennium period if we state that Satan was bound at the cross or in 70 AD. Bear with me as I write as I think (this could get scary! :bigshock: )

 

First, the word millennium is found nowhere in the Bible, but "a thousand years" is and it would be this that our term millennium refers to.

 

Revelation IS in the Bible, not a separate prophecy book tacked on the end to be interpreted apart from the rest of Scripture. It is to be understood by other Scriptures & prophecies, particularly by Jesus & the Apostles. From the OT we can expect a glorious Messianic age - a reign of peace by the Prince of peace. An unending reign of peace:

Isaiah 9:For unto us a child is born, unto us a son is given: and the government shall be upon his shoulder: and his name shall be called Wonderful, Counsellor, The mighty God, The everlasting Father, The Prince of Peace.

Of the increase of his government and peace there shall be no end, upon the throne of David, and upon his kingdom, to order it, and to establish it with judgment and with justice from henceforth even for ever. The zeal of the Lord of hosts will perform this.

 

There are 3 refs. to 1,000 years in addition to Rev. 20:

Psalm 90:For a thousand years in thy sight are but as yesterday when it is past, and as a watch in the night.

 

Ecc. 6: Yea, though he live a thousand years twice told, yet hath he seen no good: do not all go to one place?

 

2 Peter 3:But the heavens and the earth, which are now, by the same word are kept in store, reserved unto fire against the day of judgment and perdition of ungodly men.

But, beloved, be not ignorant of this one thing, that one day is with the Lord as a thousand years, and a thousand years as one day.

The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance.

 

We are not intended to take 1000 years as an exact period of time, but as an indefinite long period. Peter sees it as a time of God's long-suffering - a time of Gospel preaching for the repentance & salvation of sinners.

 

I think Peter has two periods in mind, his own last days when the Jewish leaders were scoffing at the Lord's Olivet prophecy, but their destruction was about to take place,  and the age AFTER the destruction (the present age) when the Gospel would have no Jewish counter claims, while the temple remained in Jerusalem. 

 

Revelation 20:2-3 states:  And he laid hold on the dragon, that old serpent, which is the Devil, and Satan, and bound him a thousand years, 3 And cast him into the bottomless pit, and shut him up, and set a seal upon him, that he should deceive the nations no more, till the thousand years should be fulfilled: and after that he must be loosed a little season.

 

Notice deceive the nations no more - the antichristian Jews were deceiving the nations by opposing the Gospel. See 1 Thes. 2) The Rev. 20 millennium is NOT a time of peace. See below.

 

...so Satan was bound for 1,000 years. That is pretty specific. Now you stated that Jesus bound Satan at the cross, yet Revelation 20:1-2 states And I saw an angel come down from heaven, having the key of the bottomless pit and a great chain in his hand. 2 And he laid hold on the dragon, that old serpent, which is the Devil, and Satan, and bound him a thousand years,

 

This opens several questions in my mind.

 

1. Who bound Satan, Jesus or an angel?

Who is ruling USA - President or his ministers?

2. Was Satan bound at the cross, or in 70 AD?

He was defeated at the cross, but his Jewish children (John 8) still lived. His total defeat & incarceration was AD 70. But, of course, the whole lieth in wickedness as Satan's legacy. That continues as is evident as we read on the Rev. 20.

 

3. If he was bound for 1000 years the latest he could have been released is 1070 AD upon which time he would have gathered his army. I don't recall anything that would match this even remotely until you come to WWI and you don't sound like someone that follows the teaching of C.T. Russell so I won't go there.

I've answered that. Jesus made it very clear that TWO great future events were prophesied - his coming to destroy the generation that rejected him, & his coming to establish the NH&NE.

Mat. 21:40 When the lord therefore of the vineyard cometh, what will he do unto those husbandmen?

41 They say unto him, He will miserably destroy those wicked men, and will let out his vineyard unto other husbandmen, which shall render him the fruits in their seasons.

 

24:33 So likewise ye, when ye shall see all these things, know that it is near, even at the doors.

34 Verily I say unto you, This generation shall not pass, till all these things be fulfilled.

35 Heaven and earth shall pass away, but my words shall not pass away.

36 But of that day and hour knoweth no man, no, not the angels of heaven, but my Father only.

 

Don't jump on the ad 70 coming - just look for God coming to deliver Israel & just nations in the OT. "We" are conditioned t think of one final second coming for resurrection & judgement. But, of course, PTR premils have lots of future comings.   

 

Revelation 20:6-8 Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years. 7 And when the thousand years are expired, Satan shall be loosed out of his prison, 8 And shall go out to deceive the nations which are in the four quarters of the earth, Gog and Magog, to gather them together to battle: the number of whom is as the sand of the sea.

Now, where else do we read of a resurrection that now is and that protects against hell? And a resurrection to life or damnation?

John 5:21 For as the Father raiseth up the dead, and quickeneth them; even so the Son quickeneth whom he will.

22 For the Father judgeth no man, but hath committed all judgment unto the Son:

23 That all men should honour the Son, even as they honour the Father. He that honoureth not the Son honoureth not the Father which hath sent him.

24 Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that heareth my word, and believeth on him that sent me, hath everlasting life, and shall not come into condemnation; but is passed from death unto life.

25 Verily, verily, I say unto you, The hour is coming, and now is, when the dead shall hear the voice of the Son of God: and they that hear shall live.

26 For as the Father hath life in himself; so hath he given to the Son to have life in himself;

27 And hath given him authority to execute judgment also, because he is the Son of man.

28 Marvel not at this: for the hour is coming, in the which all that are in the graves shall hear his voice,

29 And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation.

 

In the first seven verses of Revelation 20 "thousand years" is stated six times. That makes it sound to me like it should be taken literally, yet I see no historical evidence to support this period ever ending.

I've answered that. But you will find historical evidence of the fulfilment of Jesus Olivet prophecy in AD 70.

 

Then I read:

 

Revelation 20:4-5 And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years. 5 But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection. 6 Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years.

 

4. Who are these people that did not receive the mark, and who are the people in history that did receive this mark?

Christians who resisted the Jewish hierarchy & religious persecution down the ages.

 

5. If those that did not receive the mark were resurrected then that would mean that their bodies would no longer be buried here on earth. Do we know this to be true?

No. read the verse again. I saw the souls of them that were beheaded.... The first resurrection is of SOULS, as Jesus explained in John 5. Not just martyrs - all believers who are now in glory & who live & reign with Christ.

 

Notice that they, like the Israelites of Ex. 19 & believers in 1 Peter 2, ARE kings and priests unto God and his Father; to him be glory and dominion for ever and ever. Amen. Rev. 1:6.

 

6. Where did they reign? Certainly not here on earth as their return and impact would have been obvious.

They, we. are kings and priests unto God and his Father; to him be glory and dominion for ever and ever. In a spiritual sense we, with Christ who stated: All power is given unto me in heaven and in earth. He, with us IS reigning. We should not see the present wickedness as proof that he is not reigning, but as proof that he is longsufferring, Do YOU want the commendation of blessed & holy? hear his word, and believeth on him that sent Jesus.

 

7. It is rather obvious that Revelation 20:9 and beyond certainly has not happened yet. How does this get resolved seeing we are now nearly 2,000 years past the time when Satan was bound and the millennium began?

The millennium of Rev. 20 is a time of trouble - persecution of the believers despite Satan being bound - the population of the world is in rebellion against a holy God. We see at the end of the millennium a vast insurgence against Christ & his people (the holy city, see Gal. 4) - an insurgence only put down, completely & finally by fire from heaven. See also 2 Thes. 1. The millennium is obviously not the fulfilment of the OT prophesies of a time of [peace, with Jesus ruling in person from Jerusalem.

 

The resurrection for judgement follows, & the eternal glory of the NH&NE.

 

And no, I do not look forward, nor expect, to being given a 2-edge sword to slaughter the ungodly. 

 

 

Again, I am not attacking or maligning, I am honestly in the process of coming up to speed on this topic. It is very interesting, but there is an awful lot to wrap one's mind around.

 

A question for those who see Joel 2 as yet future, despite Peter quoting it in Acts 2:

When in history was 31 The sun [shall be] turned into darkness, and the moon into blood, before the great and terrible day of the Lord come.

 

Hint: Mat. 27:45 Now from the sixth hour there was darkness over all the land unto the ninth hour.

 

 

 

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I'll let Mikado respond to this since it's his comment. Just 2 things to add:

 

There is more than one judgment. The first resurrection began with the saints resurrected with Christ (Matt 27:52) and continued to the end of the tribulation BEFORE the 1000 year reign begins. Rev 20:5-6.

 

The final judgment comes after the 1000 years (Rev 20:11).

 

Secondly, the quote from Joel 2 was a partial fulfillment. The events in Joel did not all occur at Pentecost  When Jesus quoted Isaiah 61 in the temple in Luke 4:21, He only quoted half of the verse, leaving out "and the day of vengeance of our God". Unless you believe that Pentecost was the great and terrible day of the Lord, it was not completely fulfilled.

 

The rest of the responses don't address Mikado's points, but I'll let him address that first.

Edited by Dr James Ach

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I'll let Mikado respond to this since it's his comment. Just 2 things to add:

 

There is more than one judgment. The first resurrection began with the saints resurrected with Christ (Matt 27:52) and continued to the end of the tribulation BEFORE the 1000 year reign begins. Rev 20:5-6.

 

No, it began with those who heard & believed Jesus -it's new life, aka being born again, & continues until the last sinner is saved before Jesus coming for resurrection & judgement. See John 5.

 

The final judgment comes after the 1000 years (Rev 20:11). Agreed

 

Secondly, the quote from Joel 2 was a partial fulfillment. The events in Joel did not all occur at Pentecost  When Jesus quoted Isaiah 61 in the temple in Luke 4:21, He only quoted half of the verse, leaving out "and the day of vengeance of our God". Unless you believe that Pentecost was the great and terrible day of the Lord, it was not completely fulfilled.

 

The 40-odd years between Calvary & the destruction represent a period of grace before the day of vengeance. God allowed that generation 40 years to repent & be saved by calling on the name of Jesus. See Heb. 3, quoting Psalm 95. But note:

Acts 2:20 The sun shall be turned into darkness, and the moon into blood, before the great and notable day of the Lord come:

21 And it shall come to pass, that whosoever shall call on the name of the Lord shall be saved.

 

The Jews of this untoward generation had repeated & fearful warnings:

Mal. 4:Behold, I will send you Elijah the prophet before the coming of the great and dreadful day of the Lord:

And he shall turn the heart of the fathers to the children, and the heart of the children to their fathers, lest I come and smite the earth with a curse.

 

Mat. 3:But when he saw many of the Pharisees and Sadducees come to his baptism, he said unto them, O generation of vipers, who hath warned you to flee from the wrath to come?

Bring forth therefore fruits meet for repentance:

And think not to say within yourselves, We have Abraham to our father: for I say unto you, that God is able of these stones to raise up children unto Abraham.

10 And now also the axe is laid unto the root of the trees: therefore every tree which bringeth not forth good fruit is hewn down, and cast into the fire.

 

Acts 3:22 For Moses truly said unto the fathers, A prophet shall the Lord your God raise up unto you of your brethren, like unto me; him shall ye hear in all things whatsoever he shall say unto you.

23 And it shall come to pass, that every soul, which will not hear that prophet, shall be destroyed from among the people.

 

.

 

 

 

The rest of the responses don't address Mikado's points, but I'll let him address that first.

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I'll let Mikado respond to this since it's his comment. Just 2 things to add:

 

There is more than one judgment. The first resurrection began with the saints resurrected with Christ (Matt 27:52) and continued to the end of the tribulation BEFORE the 1000 year reign begins. Rev 20:5-6.

 

The final judgment comes after the 1000 years (Rev 20:11).

 

Secondly, the quote from Joel 2 was a partial fulfillment. The events in Joel did not all occur at Pentecost  When Jesus quoted Isaiah 61 in the temple in Luke 4:21, He only quoted half of the verse, leaving out "and the day of vengeance of our God". Unless you believe that Pentecost was the great and terrible day of the Lord, it was not completely fulfilled.

 

The rest of the responses don't address Mikado's points, but I'll let him address that first.

Five Phases of the First Resurrection

 

The Five Phases of the First Resurrection
 

(1) Jesus took the Old Testament saints to Heaven at His ascension. Psalms 68:18KJV, Ephesians 4:8KJV
 

(2) The Holy Spirit and the church age saints are caught up to heaven before the antichrist is given power in the Christian nations. 2 Thessalonians 2:6-12KJV, and 1 Thessalonians 4:13-17KJV also see John16:7-8KJV the Comforter in the church will reprove sin.
 

(3) The mid tribulation catching up will include the two witnesses Revelation11:3, 7-14KJV, the 144,000 sealed Jews from Revelation chapter 7KJV who where redeemed from the earth. See Revelation 14:1-4KJV, and the redeemed dead saints from the first half of the Tribulation. See Revelation 15:1-4KJV
 

(4) The dead saints from the last half of the tribulation are redeemed from the earth after the tribulation. Revelation 20:4KJV
 

(5) The dead saints from the Kingdom age will be judged at the great white throne judgment along with the second resurrection sinners. Revelation 20:11-15KJV

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I'll let Mikado respond to this since it's his comment. Just 2 things to add:

 

Unfortunately I am on a business trip for the week and don't believe I'll have much time to respond to anything for the time. I do hope to read through the responses, but may not have the time to put together anything of my own.

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Eric - be guided by what Scripture actually says, not by your own private interpretations.

 

Jesus, in John 5 teaches that salvation, hearing & believing his Word, is life from the dead. A spiritual resurrection that protects from condemnation - the second death. Quite separate from the bodily resurrection taught in the same chapter.

 

John (Rev. 20) see the SOULS of martyrs living & reigning with Christ - not a bodily first resurrection.

 

The first resurrection is enjoyed by all believers at conversion - we do not fear condemnation, nor the second death in hell.

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Resurrection:  OKay, the Bible seems pretty clear here. there will be two resurrections: of the righteous and the lost.

 

The first will take place at Jesus' coming: "But every man in his own order: Christ the firstfruits; afterward they that are Christ's at his coming." (1Cor 15:23). Not in 5 parts-in one part, "at His coming". So forget a pre-trib rapture, because that's not 'at His coming', and it could not, then, include those saved during the Tribulation. Yes, there will be some saved during the tribulation, like the 144,000 Jews, and others, since their job seems to be to witness. As well, the invitation to repentance and salvation appears to be open during the GT, because we see four times in Revelation that it is mentioned, "they repented not" because of the tribulations occuring. So while few, if any, will repent, it is still possible

 

Okay, so when Jesus took the believers of the OT from Paradise to Heaven, that is not a resurrection, because resurrection is bodily, not the soul only. The 144,000 are nowhere seen as resurrected-yes they are in Heaven, but assumably, as the souls of the martyrs, they are there in spirit.

 

See, when you invent something like a pre-tribulation rapture, you have to take a single resurrection and turn it into a multipart single resurrection, which makes no sense. Two resurrections: the saved and the lost. Period. Whch is why it clearly occurs in Rev 14, immediately prior to the outpouring of God's wrath. NOwhere does the Bible even hint that Christians will be removed before the GT begins, and indeed, the Bible tells us that durng this time the dragon will be given power to overcome the saints-that's us. Not the church, mind you, since that is Christ, but the saints.

 

More later-gotta go to work now. Bye!

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I found a few minutes to set some thoughts/questions down.

 

I asked:

 

If those that did not receive the mark were resurrected then that would mean that their bodies would no longer be buried here on earth. Do we know this to be true?

 

Covenanter replied:

 

No. read the verse again. I saw the souls of them that were beheaded.... The first resurrection is of SOULS, as Jesus explained in John 5. Not just martyrs - all believers who are now in glory & who live & reign with Christ.

 

Notice that they, like the Israelites of Ex. 19 & believers in 1 Peter 2, ARE kings and priests unto God and his Father; to him be glory and dominion for ever and ever. Amen. Rev. 1:6.

 

So the way I understand this is that these are people that physically died for their faith. They DID die, right?

 

Then I asked:

 

Where did they reign? Certainly not here on earth as their return and impact would have been obvious.

 

To which Covenanter replied:

 

“They, we” are kings and priests unto God and his Father; to him be glory and dominion for ever and ever. In a spiritual sense we, with Christ who stated: All power is given unto me in heaven and in earth. He, “with us” IS reigning. We should not see the present wickedness as proof that he is not reigning, but as proof that he is longsufferring, Do YOU want the commendation of blessed & holy? hear his word, and believeth on him that sent Jesus.

 

Then I look at Revelation 20:4 again:

 

And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and THEY lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years. But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection.

 

These verses tell me that those that experienced the first resurrection are the ones that are reigning with Christ.

 

Covenanter states “They, WE”, and He, “WITH US” is reigning. As spelled out in verse 5 it is only those that were of the first resurrection that are reigning with Christ. How does this work. Have their spirits been continually coming to earth in new human bodies, the “we and us”, to reign? Would this not mean that they have been repeatedly experiencing natural death over the past 2000 years?

 

I thought we were only to die once?: Hebrews 9:27 And as it is appointed unto men once to die, but after this the judgment:

 

If this isn’t the case, how do you justify the "we and us" when the THEY in Rev. 20:4 is pretty specific?

 

One other point that has been gnawing at me is a statement Covenanter made in post #79:

 

Amil teaches that Satan is bound, but the wickedness of men deceived by Satan continues. The gates of hell are opened, & cannot hold back one redeemed sinner. We are living in the millennium in a world where Christ reigns, but he is longsuffering, so the wicked live on, with the Gospel of salvation for all who repent.

 

This tells me that Satan is bound and it is only the wickedness of men that we battle against.

 

The Bible tells us:

 

Ephesians 6:11-12 Put on the whole armour of God, that ye may be able to stand against the wiles of the devil. 12 For we wrestle not against flesh and blood, but against principalities, against powers, against the rulers of the darkness of this world, against spiritual wickedness in high places.

 

Now the only way I can see the preterist justifying these verses is to say they were written to those before 70 AD, but I’ll tell you what my simple mind tells me.

 

Every day I fight against temptation that seems to come directly from the center of my heart and mind. If Satan is bound and these sinful temptations come from those wicked men referred to above, then they were given an unfair advantage over us being able to get into our heads the way they do; especially if we are the ones that are ruling and reigning with Christ.

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I found a few minutes to set some thoughts/questions down.

I asked:

If those that did not receive the mark were resurrected then that would mean that their bodies would no longer be buried here on earth. Do we know this to be true?

Covenanter replied:

No. read the verse again. I saw the souls of them that were beheaded.... The first resurrection is of SOULS, as Jesus explained in John 5. Not just martyrs - all believers who are now in glory & who live & reign with Christ.

Notice that they, like the Israelites of Ex. 19 & believers in 1 Peter 2, ARE kings and priests unto God and his Father; to him be glory and dominion for ever and ever. Amen. Rev. 1:6.

So the way I understand this is that these are people that physically died for their faith. They DID die, right?

Then I asked:

Where did they reign? Certainly not here on earth as their return and impact would have been obvious.

To which Covenanter replied:

“They, we” are kings and priests unto God and his Father; to him be glory and dominion for ever and ever. In a spiritual sense we, with Christ who stated: All power is given unto me in heaven and in earth. He, “with us” IS reigning. We should not see the present wickedness as proof that he is not reigning, but as proof that he is longsufferring, Do YOU want the commendation of blessed & holy? hear his word, and believeth on him that sent Jesus.

Then I look at Revelation 20:4 again:

And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and THEY lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years. But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection.

These verses tell me that those that experienced the first resurrection are the ones that are reigning with Christ.

Covenanter states “They, WE”, and He, “WITH US” is reigning. As spelled out in verse 5 it is only those that were of the first resurrection that are reigning with Christ. How does this work. Have their spirits been continually coming to earth in new human bodies, the “we and us”, to reign? Would this not mean that they have been repeatedly experiencing natural death over the past 2000 years?

I thought we were only to die once?: Hebrews 9:27 And as it is appointed unto men once to die, but after this the judgment:

If this isn’t the case, how do you justify the "we and us" when the THEY in Rev. 20:4 is pretty specific?

One other point that has been gnawing at me is a statement Covenanter made in post #79:

Amil teaches that Satan is bound, but the wickedness of men deceived by Satan continues. The gates of hell are opened, & cannot hold back one redeemed sinner. We are living in the millennium in a world where Christ reigns, but he is longsuffering, so the wicked live on, with the Gospel of salvation for all who repent.

This tells me that Satan is bound and it is only the wickedness of men that we battle against.

The Bible tells us:

Ephesians 6:11-12 Put on the whole armour of God, that ye may be able to stand against the wiles of the devil. 12 For we wrestle not against flesh and blood, but against principalities, against powers, against the rulers of the darkness of this world, against spiritual wickedness in high places.

Now the only way I can see the preterist justifying these verses is to say they were written to those before 70 AD, but I’ll tell you what my simple mind tells me.

Every day I fight against temptation that seems to come directly from the center of my heart and mind. If Satan is bound and these sinful temptations come from those wicked men referred to above, then they were given an unfair advantage over us being able to get into our heads the way they do; especially if we are the ones that are ruling and reigning with Christ.


No, see, where you are going wrong is in reading simply what God wrote down.
That's what leads you to questions like these........

;)

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No, see, where you are going wrong is in reading simply what God wrote down.
That's what leads you to questions like these........

;)

Sorry if that offends you, but that we must do, before we impose any interpretation system on Scripture.

 

Compare Scripture with Scripture, consider how the NT writers used & interpreted Scripture.

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Mikado:

 

These verses tell me that those that experienced the first resurrection are the ones that are reigning with Christ.

 

Covenanter states “They, WE”, and He, “WITH US” is reigning. As spelled out in verse 5 it is only those that were of the first resurrection that are reigning with Christ. How does this work. Have their spirits been continually coming to earth in new human bodies, the “we and us”, to reign? Would this not mean that they have been repeatedly experiencing natural death over the past 2000 years?

 

I thought we were only to die once?: Hebrews 9:27 And as it is appointed unto men once to die, but after this the judgment:

 

If this isn’t the case, how do you justify the "we and us" when the THEY in Rev. 20:4 is pretty specific?

 

You don't appreciate your own position. No question of repeated deaths - we have eternal life that our mortality cannot end. We are NOW citizens of our Lord's eternal heaven kingdom. All the rulers of the world are subject to him. John, on Patmos, knew his privileged status in Christ, & encouraged his companions in tribulation: 

Rev. 1:John to the seven churches which are in Asia: Grace be unto you, and peace, from him which is, and which was, and which is to come; and from the seven Spirits which are before his throne;

And from Jesus Christ, who is the faithful witness, and the first begotten of the dead, and the prince of the kings of the earth. Unto him that loved us, and washed us from our sins in his own blood,

And hath made us kings and priests unto God and his Father; to him be glory and dominion for ever and ever. Amen.

 

I John, who also am your brother, and companion in tribulation, and in the kingdom and patience of Jesus Christ, was in the isle that is called Patmos, for the word of God, and for the testimony of Jesus Christ.

 

Your problem is thinking that to reign means to live on earth as a king (or for the king.) The OT Scriptures make it very clear that the LORD reigns from heaven. 

Psa. 97:1 The Lord reigneth; let the earth rejoice; let the multitude of isles be glad thereof.

 

Dan. 4:I thought it good to shew the signs and wonders that the high God hath wrought toward me.

How great are his signs! and how mighty are his wonders! his kingdom is an everlasting kingdom, and his dominion is from generation to generation.

 

17 This matter is by the decree of the watchers, and the demand by the word of the holy ones: to the intent that the living may know that the most High ruleth in the kingdom of men, and giveth it to whomsoever he will, and setteth up over it the basest of men.

 

I found a few minutes to set some thoughts/questions down.

 

I asked:

 

If those that did not receive the mark were resurrected then that would mean that their bodies would no longer be buried here on earth. Do we know this to be true?

 

Covenanter replied:

 

No. read the verse again. I saw the souls of them that were beheaded.... The first resurrection is of SOULS, as Jesus explained in John 5. Not just martyrs - all believers who are now in glory & who live & reign with Christ.

 

Notice that they, like the Israelites of Ex. 19 & believers in 1 Peter 2, ARE kings and priests unto God and his Father; to him be glory and dominion for ever and ever. Amen. Rev. 1:6.

 

So the way I understand this is that these are people that physically died for their faith. They DID die, right?

 

Then I asked:

 

Where did they reign? Certainly not here on earth as their return and impact would have been obvious.

 

To which Covenanter replied:

 

“They, we” are kings and priests unto God and his Father; to him be glory and dominion for ever and ever. In a spiritual sense we, with Christ who stated: All power is given unto me in heaven and in earth. He, “with us” IS reigning. We should not see the present wickedness as proof that he is not reigning, but as proof that he is longsufferring, Do YOU want the commendation of blessed & holy? hear his word, and believeth on him that sent Jesus.

 

Then I look at Revelation 20:4 again:

 

And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and THEY lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years. But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection.

 

These verses tell me that those that experienced the first resurrection are the ones that are reigning with Christ.

 

Covenanter states “They, WE”, and He, “WITH US” is reigning. As spelled out in verse 5 it is only those that were of the first resurrection that are reigning with Christ. How does this work. Have their spirits been continually coming to earth in new human bodies, the “we and us”, to reign? Would this not mean that they have been repeatedly experiencing natural death over the past 2000 years?

 

I thought we were only to die once?: Hebrews 9:27 And as it is appointed unto men once to die, but after this the judgment:

 

If this isn’t the case, how do you justify the "we and us" when the THEY in Rev. 20:4 is pretty specific?

 

One other point that has been gnawing at me is a statement Covenanter made in post #79:

 

Amil teaches that Satan is bound, but the wickedness of men deceived by Satan continues. The gates of hell are opened, & cannot hold back one redeemed sinner. We are living in the millennium in a world where Christ reigns, but he is longsuffering, so the wicked live on, with the Gospel of salvation for all who repent.

 

This tells me that Satan is bound and it is only the wickedness of men that we battle against.

 

The Bible tells us:

 

Ephesians 6:11-12 Put on the whole armour of God, that ye may be able to stand against the wiles of the devil. 12 For we wrestle not against flesh and blood, but against principalities, against powers, against the rulers of the darkness of this world, against spiritual wickedness in high places.

 

Now the only way I can see the preterist justifying these verses is to say they were written to those before 70 AD, but I’ll tell you what my simple mind tells me.

 

Every day I fight against temptation that seems to come directly from the center of my heart and mind. If Satan is bound and these sinful temptations come from those wicked men referred to above, then they were given an unfair advantage over us being able to get into our heads the way they do; especially if we are the ones that are ruling and reigning with Christ.

 

2 Cor. 2:11 Lest Satan should get an advantage of us: for we are not ignorant of his devices.

 

Sadly we are, in spite of God's warnings & advice. Proverbs is full of such warnings, & precious remedies. Scripture has plenty of examples of believers falling to temptation. But is temptation all external, from Satan in person? Books have been written on this so I can only  outline a reply.

 

You say temptations come "from the center of my heart and mind." James seems to agree:

1:13 Let no man say when he is tempted, I am tempted of God: for God cannot be tempted with evil, neither tempteth he any man:

14 But every man is tempted, when he is drawn away of his own lust, and enticed.

15 Then when lust hath conceived, it bringeth forth sin: and sin, when it is finished, bringeth forth death.

16 Do not err, my beloved brethren.

 

One of Satan's devices is to convince us that he doesn't exist. Another is to convince us that he has more power than he actually has. In Jesus' temptations, Satan claimed:

Luke 4:And the devil said unto him, All this power will I give thee, and the glory of them: for that is delivered unto me; and to whomsoever I will I give it.

If thou therefore wilt worship me, all shall be thine.

And Jesus answered and said unto him, Get thee behind me, Satan: for it is written, Thou shalt worship the Lord thy God, and him only shalt thou serve.

 

Jesus dismissed his claim with a word. As believers, we have the Holy Spirit within so that Satan has no access to our heart. We do still have a dual nature - redeemed but not perfected, so that we can and do both sin & resist sin. 

 

We need to recognise Satan is a defeated enemy:

Mark 3:27 No man can enter into a strong man's house, and spoil his goods, except he will first bind the strong man; and then he will spoil his house.

 

Heb. 2:14 Forasmuch then as the children are partakers of flesh and blood, he also himself likewise took part of the same; that through death he might destroy him that had the power of death, that is, the devil;

15 And deliver them who through fear of death were all their lifetime subject to bondage.

 

2 Peter 2:For if God spared not the angels that sinned, but cast them down to hell, and delivered them into chains of darkness, to be reserved unto judgment;

And spared not the old world, but saved Noah the eighth person, a preacher of righteousness, bringing in the flood upon the world of the ungodly;

And turning the cities of Sodom and Gomorrha into ashes condemned them with an overthrow, making them an ensample unto those that after should live ungodly;

And delivered just Lot, vexed with the filthy conversation of the wicked:

(For that righteous man dwelling among them, in seeing and hearing, vexed his righteous soul from day to day with their unlawful deeds;)

The Lord knoweth how to deliver the godly out of temptations, and to reserve the unjust unto the day of judgment to be punished:

10 But chiefly them that walk after the flesh in the lust of uncleanness, and despise government....

 

Rev 17:The beast that thou sawest was, and is not; and shall ascend out of the bottomless pit, and go into perdition: ...

 

20:1 And I saw an angel come down from heaven, having the key of the bottomless pit and a great chain in his hand.

And he laid hold on the dragon, that old serpent, which is the Devil, and Satan, and bound him a thousand years,

And cast him into the bottomless pit, and shut him up, and set a seal upon him, that he should deceive the nations no more, till the thousand years should be fulfilled: and after that he must be loosed a little season.

 

Satan is bound, so that the Gospel goes out to the nations, while before Calvary there was no Gospel for the nations, though it was promised to Abram (Gen. 12:3) & a few Gentiles were saved. Then salvation was through associating with the Israelite people of God so that even a despised Moabitess became an ancestor of Christ. Ruth declared:

1:16 And Ruth said, Intreat me not to leave thee, or to return from following after thee: for whither thou goest, I will go; and where thou lodgest, I will lodge: thy people shall be my people, and thy God my God:

 

Now that covenant promise (Lev. 26) claimed by Ruth is ours in Christ. (2 Cor. 6) without formal circumcision & the Law. Satan's devices during the Apostolic age, before the Abyss, were to try to centre the Gospel on Judaism, the slavery of the Law, rather than freedom in Christ. Now there is no Judaism to divert from Christ. Sadly there are plenty of false believers to lead true believers astray.

 

We must of course always be on the alert. Especially for the unspecified time when Satan is again released; when evil becomes rampant, when the Gospel is opposed everywhere; when evil is declared to be good, & good, evil. Is that what is happening in our day? We must oppose the evil we are faced with - almost universal acceptance of homosexuality; the absolute persecution of believers under pagan religions; the acceptance of all religions as valid; the promotion of Zionism; the materialism that robs and enslaves the poor; the callous disregard of human life, whether unborn, aged, ill or simply alien.

 

Watch and pray!   

 

 

 

 

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Resurrection:  OKay, the Bible seems pretty clear here. there will be two resurrections: of the righteous and the lost.

 

The first will take place at Jesus' coming: "But every man in his own order: Christ the firstfruits; afterward they that are Christ's at his coming." (1Cor 15:23). Not in 5 parts-in one part, "at His coming". So forget a pre-trib rapture, because that's not 'at His coming', and it could not, then, include those saved during the Tribulation. Yes, there will be some saved during the tribulation, like the 144,000 Jews, and others, since their job seems to be to witness. As well, the invitation to repentance and salvation appears to be open during the GT, because we see four times in Revelation that it is mentioned, "they repented not" because of the tribulations occuring. So while few, if any, will repent, it is still possible

 

Okay, so when Jesus took the believers of the OT from Paradise to Heaven, that is not a resurrection, because resurrection is bodily, not the soul only. The 144,000 are nowhere seen as resurrected-yes they are in Heaven, but assumably, as the souls of the martyrs, they are there in spirit.

 

See, when you invent something like a pre-tribulation rapture, you have to take a single resurrection and turn it into a multipart single resurrection, which makes no sense. Two resurrections: the saved and the lost. Period. Whch is why it clearly occurs in Rev 14, immediately prior to the outpouring of God's wrath. NOwhere does the Bible even hint that Christians will be removed before the GT begins, and indeed, the Bible tells us that durng this time the dragon will be given power to overcome the saints-that's us. Not the church, mind you, since that is Christ, but the saints.

 

More later-gotta go to work now. Bye!

 

Romans 8:21-23

21 Because the creature itself also shall be delivered from the bondage of corruption into the glorious liberty of the children of God.

22 For we know that the whole creation groaneth and travaileth in pain together until now.

23 And not only they, but ourselves also, which have the firstfruits of the Spirit, even we ourselves groan within ourselves, waiting for the adoption, to wit, the redemption of our body.

 

Our bodies will be changed and redeemed from the earth!

 

 

 

 

Revelation 14:1-4

1 And I looked, and, lo, a Lamb stood on the mount Sion, and with him an hundred forty and four thousand, having his Father's name written in their foreheads.

2 And I heard a voice from heaven, as the voice of many waters, and as the voice of a great thunder: and I heard the voice of harpers harping with their harps:

3 And they sung as it were a new song before the throne, and before the four beasts, and the elders: and no man could learn that song but the hundred and forty and four thousand, which were redeemed from the earth.

4 These are they which were not defiled with women; for they are virgins. These are they which follow the Lamb whithersoever he goeth. These were redeemed from among men, being the firstfruits unto God and to the Lamb.

 

Revelation 15:1-4

1 And I saw another sign in heaven, great and marvellous, seven angels having the seven last plagues(Middle of tribulation); for in them is filled up the wrath of God.

 

 

2 And I saw as it were a sea of glass mingled with fire: and them that had gotten the victory over the beast, and over his image, and over his mark, and over the number of his name, stand on the sea of glass, having the harps of God(these are tribulation saints).

 

 

 

3 And they sing the song of Moses the servant of God, and the song of the Lamb, saying, Great and marvellous are thy works, Lord God Almighty; just and true are thy ways, thou King of saints.

4 Who shall not fear thee, O Lord, and glorify thy name? for thou only art holy: for all nations shall come and worship before thee; for thy judgments are made manifest.

 

The church age saints are not redeemed at the middle of the tribulation.

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