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Eric Stahl

Can You Explain This?

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Joel is concerned with a plague of locusts NOT invading armies - 225 And I will restore to you the years that the locust hath eaten, the cankerworm, and the caterpiller, and the palmerworm, my great army which I sent among you. And there is a glorious fulfilment at Pentecost.

 

Revelation is concerned with AD 70. When we get to the second coming & the NH&NE, 21:And I heard a great voice out of heaven saying, Behold, the tabernacle of God is with men, and he will dwell with them, and they shall be his people, and God himself shall be with them, and be their God.

And God shall wipe away all tears from their eyes; and there shall be no more death, neither sorrow, nor crying, neither shall there be any more pain: for the former things are passed away.

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Joel is concerned with a plague of locusts NOT invading armies - 225 And I will restore to you the years that the locust hath eaten, the cankerworm, and the caterpiller, and the palmerworm, my great army which I sent among you. And there is a glorious fulfilment at Pentecost.

 

Revelation is concerned with AD 70. When we get to the second coming & the NH&NE, 21:And I heard a great voice out of heaven saying, Behold, the tabernacle of God is with men, and he will dwell with them, and they shall be his people, and God himself shall be with them, and be their God.

And God shall wipe away all tears from their eyes; and there shall be no more death, neither sorrow, nor crying, neither shall there be any more pain: for the former things are passed away.

 

I concur with the issue on Joel 2-I knew that, but it was late when I wrote last night and got lazy in my response.

 

However, I have to disagree with your view on Rev., for numerous reasons.

 

1-the Bible describes it as a time of trouble greater than there ever was, or ever will be, and there have been far greater times of trouble and tribulation since 70AD

 

2-The various judgments that are described would have to be extremely spiritualized and allegorized to come to that conclusion: a star called Wormwood falling and destroying so much, the burning mountain, the locusts from the pit that harm, though death is not allowed for 5 months, The physical return of Jesus Christ at Jerusalem, (which can be cross-referenced to Zechariah 14 & 12, the Jews have not yet looked upon Jesus whom they pierced and mourned for Him), we have yet to see a time where there is no more crying, sorrow or death. We have not seen the final judgment of the wicked and Satan cast into the lake of fire, and certainly, Satan was never bound for 1,000 years; rather he walks about as a roaring lion, seeking whom he may devour.

 

There are so many reasons that the Bible refutes a preterist view. Besides, all evidence points to a roughly 90AD writing of Revelation, well after the destruction of Jerusalem was a done deal.

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Joel is concerned with a plague of locusts NOT invading armies - 225 And I will restore to you the years that the locust hath eaten, the cankerworm, and the caterpiller, and the palmerworm, my great army which I sent among you. And there is a glorious fulfilment at Pentecost.

 

Revelation is concerned with AD 70. When we get to the second coming & the NH&NE, 21:And I heard a great voice out of heaven saying, Behold, the tabernacle of God is with men, and he will dwell with them, and they shall be his people, and God himself shall be with them, and be their God.

And God shall wipe away all tears from their eyes; and there shall be no more death, neither sorrow, nor crying, neither shall there be any more pain: for the former things are passed away.

 

Covenanter and Mike,

 

This is eternity after the 1000 year kingdom.

Revelation 21:1-8

1 And I saw a new heaven and a new earth: for the first heaven and the first earth were passed away; and there was no more sea.

2 And I John saw the holy city, new Jerusalem, coming down from God out of heaven, prepared as a bride adorned for her husband.

 

 

3 And I heard a great voice out of heaven saying, Behold, the tabernacle of God is with men, and he will dwell with them, and they shall be his people, and God himself shall be with them, and be their God.

 

4 And God shall wipe away all tears from their eyes; and there shall be no more death, neither sorrow, nor crying, neither shall there be any more pain: for the former things are passed away.

 

5 And he that sat upon the throne said, Behold, I make all things new. And he said unto me, Write: for these words are true and faithful.

6 And he said unto me, It is done. I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the end. I will give unto him that is athirst of the fountain of the water of life freely.

 7 He that overcometh shall inherit all things; and I will be his God, and he shall be my son.

8 But the fearful, and unbelieving, and the abominable, and murderers, and whoremongers, and sorcerers, and idolaters, and all liars, shall have their part in the lake which burneth with fire and brimstone: which is the second death.

 

 

This is the New Jerusalem during the 1000 year kingdom age.

Revelation 21:9-27

9 And there came unto me one of the seven angels which had the seven vials full of the seven last plagues, and talked with me, saying, Come hither, I will shew thee the bride, the Lamb's wife.

10 And he carried me away in the spirit to a great and high mountain, and shewed me that great city, the holy Jerusalem, descending out of heaven from God,

11 Having the glory of God: and her light was like unto a stone most precious, even like a jasper stone, clear as crystal;

12 And had a wall great and high, and had twelve gates, and at the gates twelve angels, and names written thereon, which are the names of the twelve tribes of the children of Israel:

13 On the east three gates; on the north three gates; on the south three gates; and on the west three gates.

14 And the wall of the city had twelve foundations, and in them the names of the twelve apostles of the Lamb.

15 And he that talked with me had a golden reed to measure the city, and the gates thereof, and the wall thereof.

16 And the city lieth foursquare, and the length is as large as the breadth: and he measured the city with the reed, twelve thousand furlongs. The length and the breadth and the height of it are equal.

17 And he measured the

 wall thereof, an hundred and forty and four cubits, according to the measure of a man, that is, of the angel. 18 And the building of the wall of it was of jasper: and the city was pure gold, like unto clear glass.

19 And the foundations of the wall of the city were garnished with all manner of precious stones. The first foundation was jasper; the second, sapphire; the third, a chalcedony; the fourth, an emerald;

20 The fifth, sardonyx; the sixth, sardius; the seventh, chrysolyte; the eighth, beryl; the ninth, a topaz; the tenth, a chrysoprasus; the eleventh, a jacinth; the twelfth, an amethyst.

21 And the twelve gates were twelve pearls: every several gate was of one pearl: and the street of the city was pure gold, as it were transparent glass.

22 And I saw no temple therein: for the Lord God Almighty and the Lamb are the temple of it.

(((The New Jerusalem will come down to earth and be suspended in the umbra shadow of the permanent solar eclipse over Israel so there will be no light of the sun or moon in it.)))

 

 

23 And the city had no need of the sun, neither of the moon, to shine in it: for the glory of God did lighten it, and the Lamb is the light thereof.

24 And the nations of them which are saved shall walk in the light of it: and the kings of the earth do bring their glory and honour into it.

25 And the gates of it shall not be shut at all by day: for there shall be no night there.

26 And they shall bring the glory and honour of the nations into it.

 

(((During the kingdom age there will still be sinners on earth)))

 

27 And there shall in no wise enter into it any thing that defileth, neither whatsoever worketh abomination, or maketh a lie: but they which are written in the Lamb's book of life.

Edited by Eric Stahl

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Dave,

Its is always true, now and then.


Never said it wasn't true, not that it would ever not be true.

It simply is irrelevant to them situation you trying to force it into.
It has nothing to do with physical battles. Never did, never will.

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I concur with the issue on Joel 2-I knew that, but it was late when I wrote last night and got lazy in my response.

 

However, I have to disagree with your view on Rev., for numerous reasons.

 

1-the Bible describes it as a time of trouble greater than there ever was, or ever will be, and there have been far greater times of trouble and tribulation since 70AD

 

2-The various judgments that are described would have to be extremely spiritualized and allegorized to come to that conclusion: a star called Wormwood falling and destroying so much, the burning mountain, the locusts from the pit that harm, though death is not allowed for 5 months, The physical return of Jesus Christ at Jerusalem, (which can be cross-referenced to Zechariah 14 & 12, the Jews have not yet looked upon Jesus whom they pierced and mourned for Him), we have yet to see a time where there is no more crying, sorrow or death. We have not seen the final judgment of the wicked and Satan cast into the lake of fire, and certainly, Satan was never bound for 1,000 years; rather he walks about as a roaring lion, seeking whom he may devour.

 

There are so many reasons that the Bible refutes a preterist view. Besides, all evidence points to a roughly 90AD writing of Revelation, well after the destruction of Jerusalem was a done deal.

Using the KJV ONLY, & not quoting Irenaeus, (whose dubious remarks about John are only known in a Latin translation from the Greek 200 years later) given the Biblical evidence for an AD 90 date for Revelation, & why the imminent events John prophesied relate to about AD 100 rather than AD 70..

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Using the KJV ONLY, & not quoting Irenaeus, (whose dubious remarks about John are only known in a Latin translation from the Greek 200 years later) given the Biblical evidence for an AD 90 date for Revelation, & why the imminent events John prophesied relate to about AD 100 rather than AD 70..

I don't know Iraneus from Irene Ryan, but I only use KJV, and for the stated other reasons I gave, it cannot be past because none of those things occurred.

 

 

Covenanter and Mike,

 

This is eternity after the 1000 year kingdom.

Revelation 21:1-8

1 And I saw a new heaven and a new earth: for the first heaven and the first earth were passed away; and there was no more sea.

2 And I John saw the holy city, new Jerusalem, coming down from God out of heaven, prepared as a bride adorned for her husband.

 

 

3 And I heard a great voice out of heaven saying, Behold, the tabernacle of God is with men, and he will dwell with them, and they shall be his people, and God himself shall be with them, and be their God.

 

4 And God shall wipe away all tears from their eyes; and there shall be no more death, neither sorrow, nor crying, neither shall there be any more pain: for the former things are passed away.

 

5 And he that sat upon the throne said, Behold, I make all things new. And he said unto me, Write: for these words are true and faithful.

6 And he said unto me, It is done. I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the end. I will give unto him that is athirst of the fountain of the water of life freely.

 7 He that overcometh shall inherit all things; and I will be his God, and he shall be my son.

8 But the fearful, and unbelieving, and the abominable, and murderers, and whoremongers, and sorcerers, and idolaters, and all liars, shall have their part in the lake which burneth with fire and brimstone: which is the second death.

 

 

This is the New Jerusalem during the 1000 year kingdom age.

Revelation 21:9-27

9 And there came unto me one of the seven angels which had the seven vials full of the seven last plagues, and talked with me, saying, Come hither, I will shew thee the bride, the Lamb's wife.

10 And he carried me away in the spirit to a great and high mountain, and shewed me that great city, the holy Jerusalem, descending out of heaven from God,

11 Having the glory of God: and her light was like unto a stone most precious, even like a jasper stone, clear as crystal;

12 And had a wall great and high, and had twelve gates, and at the gates twelve angels, and names written thereon, which are the names of the twelve tribes of the children of Israel:

13 On the east three gates; on the north three gates; on the south three gates; and on the west three gates.

14 And the wall of the city had twelve foundations, and in them the names of the twelve apostles of the Lamb.

15 And he that talked with me had a golden reed to measure the city, and the gates thereof, and the wall thereof.

16 And the city lieth foursquare, and the length is as large as the breadth: and he measured the city with the reed, twelve thousand furlongs. The length and the breadth and the height of it are equal.

17 And he measured the

 wall thereof, an hundred and forty and four cubits, according to the measure of a man, that is, of the angel. 18 And the building of the wall of it was of jasper: and the city was pure gold, like unto clear glass.

19 And the foundations of the wall of the city were garnished with all manner of precious stones. The first foundation was jasper; the second, sapphire; the third, a chalcedony; the fourth, an emerald;

20 The fifth, sardonyx; the sixth, sardius; the seventh, chrysolyte; the eighth, beryl; the ninth, a topaz; the tenth, a chrysoprasus; the eleventh, a jacinth; the twelfth, an amethyst.

21 And the twelve gates were twelve pearls: every several gate was of one pearl: and the street of the city was pure gold, as it were transparent glass.

22 And I saw no temple therein: for the Lord God Almighty and the Lamb are the temple of it.

(((The New Jerusalem will come down to earth and be suspended in the umbra shadow of the permanent solar eclipse over Israel so there will be no light of the sun or moon in it.)))

 

 

23 And the city had no need of the sun, neither of the moon, to shine in it: for the glory of God did lighten it, and the Lamb is the light thereof.

24 And the nations of them which are saved shall walk in the light of it: and the kings of the earth do bring their glory and honour into it.

25 And the gates of it shall not be shut at all by day: for there shall be no night there.

26 And they shall bring the glory and honour of the nations into it.

 

(((During the kingdom age there will still be sinners on earth)))

 

27 And there shall in no wise enter into it any thing that defileth, neither whatsoever worketh abomination, or maketh a lie: but they which are written in the Lamb's book of life.

Eric, Rev 21 refers to the period after the milennium, because prior to it, we see Satan and the Antichrist, as well as ALL who are not of Christ cast into the lake of fire. There will be no sinners there, because they are all in the lake of fire-that's why nothing unclean or abominable will enter into it. During the kingdom age, there will still be a sun and moon, and there will still be seasons, (Gen 8:22), thus a sun and a moon. As well there will be sinners upon the earth, which won't be there afterward.

Edited by Ukulelemike

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I don't know Iraneus from Irene Ryan, but I only use KJV, and for the stated other reasons I gave, it cannot be past because none of those things occurred.

 

 

Eric, Rev 21 refers to the period after the milennium, because prior to it, we see Satan and the Antichrist, as well as ALL who are not of Christ cast into the lake of fire. There will be no sinners there, because they are all in the lake of fire-that's why nothing unclean or abominable will enter into it. During the kingdom age, there will still be a sun and moon, and there will still be seasons, (Gen 8:22), thus a sun and a moon. As well there will be sinners upon the earth, which won't be there afterward.

Mike,

 

Revelation 21:1-8 are post milennium. But Revelation 21:9-27 are kingdom age.

 

Genesis 8:22

22 While the earth remaineth, seedtime and harvest, and cold and heat, and summer and winter, and day and night shall not cease.

 

Remaineth is strong’s #3117 which means long time (((not forever)))

 

2 Peter 3:

10 But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night; in the which the heavens shall pass away with a great noise, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat, the earth also and the works that are therein shall be burned up.

11 Seeing then that all these things shall be dissolved, what manner of persons ought ye to be in all holy conversation and godliness,

12 Looking for and hasting unto the coming of the day of God, wherein the heavens being on fire shall be dissolved, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat?

13 Nevertheless we, according to his promise, look for new heavens and a new earth, wherein dwelleth righteousness.

 

Isaiah 60:19-20

19 The sun shall be no more thy light by day; neither for brightness shall the moon give light unto thee: but the LORD shall be unto thee an everlasting light, and thy God thy glory.

20Thy sun shall no more go down; neither shall thy moon withdraw itself: for the LORD shall be thine everlasting light, and the days of thy mourning shall be ended.

21 Thy people also shall be all righteous: they shall inherit the land for ever, the branch of my planting, the work of my hands, that I may be glorified.

22A little one shall become a thousand, and a small one a strong nation: I the LORD will hasten it in his time.

 

The children are born sinners!

During the 1000 year kingdom age the sun and moon stay over Israel in a permanent solar eclipse and don’t give light but the glory of Jesus in the New Jerusalem will be the light over Israel. Notice that people still marry and have children in the kingdom age.

Edited by Eric Stahl

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I concur with the issue on Joel 2-I knew that, but it was late when I wrote last night and got lazy in my response.

 

However, I have to disagree with your view on Rev., for numerous reasons.

 

1-the Bible describes it as a time of trouble greater than there ever was, or ever will be, and there have been far greater times of trouble and tribulation since 70AD

 

2-The various judgments that are described would have to be extremely spiritualized and allegorized to come to that conclusion: a star called Wormwood falling and destroying so much, the burning mountain, the locusts from the pit that harm, though death is not allowed for 5 months, The physical return of Jesus Christ at Jerusalem, (which can be cross-referenced to Zechariah 14 & 12, the Jews have not yet looked upon Jesus whom they pierced and mourned for Him), we have yet to see a time where there is no more crying, sorrow or death. We have not seen the final judgment of the wicked and Satan cast into the lake of fire, and certainly, Satan was never bound for 1,000 years; rather he walks about as a roaring lion, seeking whom he may devour.

 

There are so many reasons that the Bible refutes a preterist view. Besides, all evidence points to a roughly 90AD writing of Revelation, well after the destruction of Jerusalem was a done deal.

OTOH there are even more reasons why the Bible teaches a Preterist view:

 

1. In his Olivet prophecy, Jesus predicts the destruction of the temple & Jerusalem; a destruction that would take place before the generation that rejected him would pass away.

Luke 21:31 So likewise ye, when ye see these things come to pass, know ye that the kingdom of God is nigh at hand.

32 Verily I say unto you, This generation shall not pass away, till all be fulfilled.

 

The Apostolic writings all refer to being in the last days. e.g. Heb. 1:1 God, who at sundry times and in divers manners spake in time past unto the fathers by the prophets, Hath in these last days spoken unto us by his Son...

 

The opening chapter of Revelation is written specifically to its first readers, companions in tribulation. 

 

Rev. 11 describes the destruction of the temple & the great city, which spiritually is called Sodom and Egypt, where also our Lord was crucified.

 

The seals describe the 4 horsemen, which repeat specifically the OT warnings, then of temporary judgment, but in Rev. a final judgment, using the same 4 instruments:

Jeremiah 15:1 Then said the Lord unto me, Though Moses and Samuel stood before me, yet my mind could not be toward this people: cast them out of my sight, and let them go forth.

And it shall come to pass, if they say unto thee, Whither shall we go forth? then thou shalt tell them, Thus saith the Lord; Such as are for death, to death; and such as are for the sword, to the sword; and such as are for the famine, to the famine; and such as are for the captivity, to the captivity.

And I will appoint over them four kinds, saith the Lord: the sword to slay, and the dogs to tear, and the fowls of the heaven, and the beasts of the earth, to devour and destroy.

And I will cause them to be removed into all kingdoms of the earth, because of Manasseh the son of Hezekiah king of Judah, for that which he did in Jerusalem.

 

Ezek. 14:21 For thus saith the Lord God; How much more when I send my four sore judgments upon Jerusalem, the sword, and the famine, and the noisome beast, and the pestilence, to cut off from it man and beast?

22 Yet, behold, therein shall be left a remnant that shall be brought forth, both sons and daughters: behold, they shall come forth unto you, and ye shall see their way and their doings: and ye shall be comforted concerning the evil that I have brought upon Jerusalem, even concerning all that I have brought upon it.

23 And they shall comfort you, when ye see their ways and their doings: and ye shall know that I have not done without cause all that I have done in it, saith the Lord God.

 

Rev. 6:And I looked, and behold a pale horse: and his name that sat on him was Death, and Hell followed with him. And power was given unto them over the fourth part of the earth, to kill with sword, and with hunger, and with death, and with the beasts of the earth.

 

Notice the close parallel, even the 2 witness in Jer. 15:1, & the deliverance of the remnant - whom Jesus warned to flee when they saw the signs, & correspond to the 144,000 servants of our God sealed before the 4 winds, 4 angels hurt the earth & sea.

 

Also in Rev. 6 we see the fulfilment of Jesus prophecy to the women of Jerusalem:

Luke 23:

27 And there followed him a great company of people, and of women, which also bewailed and lamented him.

28 But Jesus turning unto them said, Daughters of Jerusalem, weep not for me, but weep for yourselves, and for your children.

29 For, behold, the days are coming, in the which they shall say, Blessed are the barren, and the wombs that never bare, and the paps which never gave suck.

30 Then shall they begin to say to the mountains, Fall on us; and to the hills, Cover us.

31 For if they do these things in a green tree, what shall be done in the dry?

 

Rev. 6:

15 And the kings of the earth, and the great men, and the rich men, and the chief captains, and the mighty men, and every bondman, and every free man, hid themselves in the dens and in the rocks of the mountains;

16 And said to the mountains and rocks, Fall on us, and hide us from the face of him that sitteth on the throne, and from the wrath of the Lamb:

17 For the great day of his wrath is come; and who shall be able to stand?

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So when exactly did these two witnesses die in the sight of the whole world, and lay dead for three days before rising again before the whole world?

Sorry, but there is so much in Revelation that has not been fulfilled in history but the description of which would not have been missed by history.

History simply does not record the great and mighty events of Revelation. They are yet to come.

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So when exactly did these two witnesses die in the sight of the whole world, and lay dead for three days before rising again before the whole world?

Sorry, but there is so much in Revelation that has not been fulfilled in history but the description of which would not have been missed by history.

History simply does not record the great and mighty events of Revelation. They are yet to come.

The witnesses have the characteristics of Moses & Elijah - Law & Prophet. What did Jesus say?

 

Luke 16:

27 Then he said, I pray thee therefore, father, that thou wouldest send him to my father's house:

28 For I have five brethren; that he may testify unto them, lest they also come into this place of torment.

29 Abraham saith unto him, They have Moses and the prophets; let them hear them.

30 And he said, Nay, father Abraham: but if one went unto them from the dead, they will repent.

31 And he said unto him, If they hear not Moses and the prophets, neither will they be persuaded, though one rose from the dead.

 

 

The Jews utterly rejected their witness - & condemned those who simply read the Scriptures to them - see Stephen, Acts 7. As far as the rebellious Jews were concerned, the Scriptures were a dead letter, & anyone reminding them was persecuted. With the fulfilment of the Olivet prophecy & the Revelation prophecy, the Word of God was fully vindicated.

 

As for needing a world-wide fulfilment, on many occasion, "earth" refers to the promised land, or even to soil. You should not assume a scope that is not given in Scripture. Disasters affecting the fourth part of the earth occurred & are readily understandable when we realise that the deaths were inflicted on the Jews during their rebellion. Just as understandable as the event prophesied by Zechariah death & deliverance: 13:Awake, O sword, against my shepherd, and against the man that is my fellow, saith the Lord of hosts: smite the shepherd, and the sheep shall be scattered: and I will turn mine hand upon the little ones.

And it shall come to pass, that in all the land, saith the Lord, two parts therein shall be cut off and die; but the third shall be left therein.

And I will bring the third part through the fire, and will refine them as silver is refined, and will try them as gold is tried: they shall call on my name, and I will hear them: I will say, It is my people: and they shall say, The Lord is my God.

 

 

Jesus saw that prophecy beginning in his day. See in v. 9 the realisation of the great Covenant promise of our God to his people. A promise made many times in the OT, but fully realised in the New Covenant, both to Jews & Gentiles. We see it to perfection in the NH&NE.

 

Lev. 26:For I will have respect unto you, and make you fruitful, and multiply you, and establish my covenant with you.

10 And ye shall eat old store, and bring forth the old because of the new.

11 And I set my tabernacle among you: and my soul shall not abhor you.

12 And I will walk among you, and will be your God, and ye shall be my people.

 

2 Cor. 6:15 And what concord hath Christ with Belial? or what part hath he that believeth with an infidel?

16 And what agreement hath the temple of God with idols? for ye are the temple of the living God; as God hath said, I will dwell in them, and walk in them; and I will be their God, and they shall be my people.

17 Wherefore come out from among them, and be ye separate, saith the Lord, and touch not the unclean thing; and I will receive you.

18 And will be a Father unto you, and ye shall be my sons and daughters, saith the Lord Almighty.

 

Rev. 21:And I heard a great voice out of heaven saying, Behold, the tabernacle of God is with men, and he will dwell with them, and they shall be his people, and God himself shall be with them, and be their God.

And God shall wipe away all tears from their eyes; and there shall be no more death, neither sorrow, nor crying, neither shall there be any more pain: for the former things are passed away.

 

When you realise that what you call world-wide disasters are the fulfilment of Jesus' prophecy, you will see Jesus fully vindicated. Strangely dispensationalists focus on the land of Israel today, & see prophecy being fulfilled in the news, yet do not see the prophecies of Jesus fulfilled in the prophesied destruction of Jerusalem & the temple.

Edited by Covenanter

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Strangely, when I read the Bible I see prophecies that have not been fulfilled in Scripture no matter how much people try to explain them away.

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Mike,

 

Revelation 21:1-8 are post milennium. But Revelation 21:9-27 are kingdom age.

 

Wait, so you're telling me that we have the kingdom age beginning with Jesus' return in Rev 19:11, continuing through Rev 20, ad ending with the final judgment of the lost and Satan, death and hell being cast into the lake of fire. Then, 21 beings with the new heaven and new earth, thus, the beginning of, basicaly, eternity, the New Jerusalem coming down, the tebernacle is with men, etc, UNTIL verse 9, when suddenly we shift BACK to the milennial kingdom age? Yet, at the beginning of 21, we see the New Jerusalem come down, then in 9, JOhn begins to describe the New Jerusalem, which has just come down onto the new earth from the new heaven? Hwo, then, is this back to the kingdom age? As well, we see in 23 there is no sun nor moon here, a sign that this IS the new heaven and earth, because, as I said, the sun and moon will still be in place during the kingdom age, since, being the same earth, (eath still stands), Genesis tells us that as long as the earth stands, the seasons will continue. But on the new heaven/earth, there will be NO moon nor sun, because God and the Lamb are the light thereof.

 

I'm just not seeing how this has gone from tribulation to wrath to kingdom to new heaven/earth, the BACK to kingdom, while describing that which has just arrived on the new earth from the new heaven.

 

Genesis 8:22

22 While the earth remaineth, seedtime and harvest, and cold and heat, and summer and winter, and day and night shall not cease.

 

Remaineth is strong’s #3117 which means long time (((not forever)))

 

2 Peter 3:

10 But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night; in the which the heavens shall pass away with a great noise, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat, the earth also and the works that are therein shall be burned up.

11 Seeing then that all these things shall be dissolved, what manner of persons ought ye to be in all holy conversation and godliness,

12 Looking for and hasting unto the coming of the day of God, wherein the heavens being on fire shall be dissolved, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat?

13 Nevertheless we, according to his promise, look for new heavens and a new earth, wherein dwelleth righteousness.

 

Isaiah 60:19-20

19 The sun shall be no more thy light by day; neither for brightness shall the moon give light unto thee: but the LORD shall be unto thee an everlasting light, and thy God thy glory.

20Thy sun shall no more go down; neither shall thy moon withdraw itself: for the LORD shall be thine everlasting light, and the days of thy mourning shall be ended.

21 Thy people also shall be all righteous: they shall inherit the land for ever, the branch of my planting, the work of my hands, that I may be glorified.

22A little one shall become a thousand, and a small one a strong nation: I the LORD will hasten it in his time.

 

The children are born sinners!

During the 1000 year kingdom age the sun and moon stay over Israel in a permanent solar eclipse and don’t give light but the glory of Jesus in the New Jerusalem will be the light over Israel. Notice that people still marry and have children in the kingdom age.

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Mike,

Revelation 21:9-10

9 And there came unto me one of the seven angels which had the seven vials full of the seven last plagues, and talked with me, saying, Come hither, I will shew thee the bride, the Lamb's wife.

 

Notice that the vial is still full. It is the middle of the tribulation.

 

10 And he carried me away in the spirit to a great and high mountain, and shewed me that great city, the holy Jerusalem, descending out of heaven from God,

 

(((John saw it coming down at the beginning of the milinium)))

 

 

Isaiah 60:20

20Thy sun shall no more go down; neither shall thy moon withdraw itself: for the LORD shall be thine everlasting light, and the days of thy mourning shall be ended.

 

(((The sun and moon are still over Israel but not giving light. Why? I believe they are in a permanent solar eclipse.)))

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You'll have to explain. It's many years since I went camping.

 

Come on, you know Harold Camping? He is the preterist that ran family radio for years, kept setting dates, all wrong of course. I think he raptured himself a while back

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The issue of the date of Revelation has been covered on this site ad nauseum:

 

 

 

 

 

But since the issue has been raised again, I will post the response I gave to this from our website:

 

 

The Date of the Book of Revelation

Of the many objections I have against the 3 views, the early dating of the book of Revelation seems to me a blatantly dishonest and inconsistent interpretation of history and the Bible’s internal evidence for a late date (i.e. AD 95). Preterists such as Hank Haneggraff cherry-pick historians in that the “early fathers” are useful in supporting some of their apologetic claims for the validity of the Bible and early developed doctrines, but disgard them as reliable when their writings are in contradistinction to their eschatology.

If Revelation was written after AD 70, that destroys all eschatological views that view Daniels 70th week, Jesus Olivet discourse in Matthew 24, Mark 13, and Luke 21, and Revelation 1-19 as having been fulfilled in AD 70 and demonstrates that all of Revelation is yet future.

Evidence For the Late Date of  Revelation

*Iraneus (AD 120-202)who was a disciple of Polycarp who was a disciple of John. Iraneus holds that John wrote Revelation during the end of the reign of Domitian who did not begin his reign until 81 AD and was killed in AD 96.

*Clement of Alexandria (AD 150-215), Tertullian (AD 160-220), Victorinus (AD 304), Eusibius (AD 260-340), Jerome (AD 340-419).

Although these men were not always doctrinally correct, their citations of John writing Revelation while on the Isle of Patmos under Domitians reign is a matter of recorded history not doctrinal exegesis.

*The Laodiceans are prospersous in Rev 3:17. Laodecea was destroyed by an earthquake in AD 61, it is highly unlikely that they recovered to such economic prosperity in only 9 years.

*The church of Smyrna was not in existence prior to AD 70. It is only mentioned by John in Rev 1:11 and 2:8.

The Prophecies of Daniel and Revelation Were Not Fulfilled in AD 70

Preterists in particular lay heavy emphasis on the term “shortly come to pass” in Matthew 24 and Revelation 1:1 that shows the events described by Christ and John would have an immediate fulfillment. However, they are inconsistent in their application of these passages as Revelation 22:6, the counterpart to Rev 1:1 also states that the events the 3 views DO believe are yet future will also come to pass shortly. Furthermore, Paul states in Romans 16 that Satan would be bruised under our feet “shortly”. That has obviously not occurred. Therefore “shortly” is clearly not used to define an immediate fulfillment, at least from man’s perspective, but is a statement of an expecation of immanency.

Much of the futurist view and those who hold to a future fulfillment of Daniel’s 70th week are objected to by the other views as being fulfilled in Titus. It is almost a blasphemous interpretation of Daniel 9:26-27 where the text is clear that the “prince to come” is referring to the antichrist, and not Jesus (Not only is this fact clear in the text of Daniel 9, but also in Daniel 11:16-32). The other views attempt to squeeze Jesus baptism (which is not mentioned in Daniel), His ministry and crucifixion all in the final week of Daniel. However, Daniel makes it clear that the Messiah is “cut off” (crucified) BEFORE the one week is confirmed.

The other views attempt to allegorize the text claiming that Jesus rendered the oblations and sacrifices ineffective instead of as the text says, the prince would cause to cease. It is clear that the oblations and sacrifices did not cease until 40 years after Christ ascended, but their interpretation would require them to have ceased at Christ’s crucifixion if said event was the culmination of Daniel’s 70th week.

The other views point to the Olivet discourse where Jesus states “when ye see the armies compass Jerusalem about, flee into the mountains”. That never occured in AD 70. Titus surrounded Jerusalem and nobody was permitted exit from the city. What did happen in AD 70 after Titus regrouped was that the Jews were scattered throughout the world (“The Diaspora”), that is not quite the same as fleeing to the mountains “where the woman hath a place prepared of God that they shoud feed her a thousand two hundred and threescore days” Rev 12:6.

Other events that never occurred are as follows:

*Jesus never returned to the earth in VISIBLE fashion. Rev 1:7 (“every eye shall see him”).

*Nobody was subjected to the mark of the beast, or the number of his name. Although the other views attempt to ascribe this to Nero, 2 Thess makes it clear that the antichrist is destroyed by the brightness of Jesus’ coming, Nero committed suicide. Nero could only be considered a type of antichrist, but does not meet the requirements to be THE antichrist of Revelation 13, and Nero never had an image made that was to be worshipped and given life to (Rev 13:15). There is no historical evidence that anyone under Nero or Titus was prevented from buying or selling unless they had the mark of the beast or the number of his name, and there is no evidence that anyone was martyred because of rejecting such (Rev 15:1-3).

*The mount of olives did not split in two. Zechariah 14:4. Also, Revelation 6:14-15 states that every mountain and island were moved out of their places, and the heaven departed as a scroll.

*The Euphrates river was not dried up. Rev 9:14-15Rev 16:12

*The number of the armies in Rev 9:16 (200 million) far exceeds any amount of any army in existence at the time of Nero. Even today, the only army that could possibly fit that number would be China which fits Daniel and Revelation’s claim that this army comes from the East. This also brings up another fact that the armies gathered against Israel partly come from the East, Rome is WEST of Jerusalem. Therefore Titus and Nero could not possibly have fulfilled Daniel or Revelation.

*In AD 70, only ONE army attacked Jerusalem (Rome). Scripture indicates that God gathers ALL NATIONS against Jerusalem. Zech 12:314:2.

*The amount of the world’s population that is killed by the judgments never occurred in AD 70. Rev 6:8Rev 8:11Rev 9:15-20.

*The amount of physical destruction to the earth never occurred in AD 70. Rev 8:8-12.

Not only did these events not occur in AD 70, they have never occurred at any time since then. Historicists and some Covenanters attempt to explain they gradually occurred  through out history, but that is not only a gross interpretation of Scripture, but it defies all of the timelines given in Revelation that make it clear all of these events occur within a 7 year period. Rev 8:111:312:61413:5.

There are many more examples, but these should be enough to prove that the prophecies of Daniel and Revelation (among others) were not fulfilled in AD 70, nor at any other time in history to date.

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I was also waiting for someone to bring this passage up because I know it's familiar to everyone, but:

 

"And then shall that Wicked be revealed, whom the Lord shall consume with the spirit of his mouth, and shall destroy with the brightness of his coming:" 2 Thess 2:8. 

 

 

I would have to say this verse with Rev 19 is pretty clear and shows that Psalm 149 is a different context.

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Mike,

Revelation 21:9-10

9 And there came unto me one of the seven angels which had the seven vials full of the seven last plagues, and talked with me, saying, Come hither, I will shew thee the bride, the Lamb's wife.

 

Notice that the vial is still full. It is the middle of the tribulation.

 

10 And he carried me away in the spirit to a great and high mountain, and shewed me that great city, the holy Jerusalem, descending out of heaven from God,

 

(((John saw it coming down at the beginning of the milinium)))

 

 

Isaiah 60:20

20Thy sun shall no more go down; neither shall thy moon withdraw itself: for the LORD shall be thine everlasting light, and the days of thy mourning shall be ended.

 

(((The sun and moon are still over Israel but not giving light. Why? I believe they are in a permanent solar eclipse.)))

Except the vial had been poured out already. Notice "HAD the seven vials" He recognized him from his handling of a vial, now he was talking to him after it was all said and done-the verses here since at least Rev 19 have been timelined-happening in order-there's nothing to indicate it suddenly went back, especially since the New Jerusalem had not come down yet until the new heaven and new earth. John never mentions it as having seen it beforehand. He sees it when it comes down from heaven, apparently for the first time, since its the first time its mentioned.

 

If I said to you, "Hey! I remember you-you had the big bucket full of fish guts! How's it going?" Obviously I am referring to a time I had seen you before, not that you still have a bucket full of fish guts.

Edited by Ukulelemike

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Come on, you know Harold Camping? He is the preterist that ran family radio for years, kept setting dates, all wrong of course. I think he raptured himself a while back

No-one who sets dates is a Bible believer. Date setting is an absolute rejection of the words of Jesus:

Mark 13:31 Heaven and earth shall pass away: but my words shall not pass away.

32 But of that day and that hour knoweth no man, no, not the angels which are in heaven, neither the Son, but the Father.

33 Take ye heed, watch and pray: for ye know not when the time is.

34 For the Son of Man is as a man taking a far journey, who left his house, and gave authority to his servants, and to every man his work, and commanded the porter to watch.

35 Watch ye therefore: for ye know not when the master of the house cometh, at even, or at midnight, or at the cockcrowing, or in the morning:

36 Lest coming suddenly he find you sleeping.

37 And what I say unto you I say unto all, Watch.

If you want to associate me with a Preterist, try Gary DeMar.  "LAST DAYS MADNESS - Obsession of the Modern Church."
 

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My comments:

The issue of the date of Revelation has been covered on this site ad nauseum:

It is of paramount importance - especially to those who impose dispensational teaching on Scripture. You will see from your cut/paste quote below that "they" rely on cherry picking statements by early church fathers whose teachings they accept are suspect. Let us stay within Scripture & it will be clear that a late date requires the rejection of the words of Jesus & his Apostles. 

   

Note this statement below:

"If Revelation was written after AD 70, that destroys all eschatological views that view Daniels 70th week, Jesus Olivet discourse in Matthew 24, Mark 13, and Luke 21, and Revelation 1-19 as having been fulfilled in AD 70 and demonstrates that all of Revelation is yet future."

"IF" is of course critical. IF opens the way for non-Biblical interpretation - imposed interpretation NOT straightforward reading, & all the GARBAGE that today's heroes of prophecy spew out - the multi-million "Left Behind" fiction, the reissued prophecies centred on the land of Israel, the temple & the Jews, rather than the Lord Jesus Christ & his Gospel for all nations. That Israel-centred teaching has resulted in a rejection of the Gospel, & suffering for indigenous Christians throughout the Middle East. The Arabs naturally see the US military "crusades" as Christian wars against Muslims & Islam.

 

On the contrary:

If Revelation was written BEFORE AD 70, that destroys all eschatological views that view Daniels 70th week, Jesus Olivet discourse in Matthew 24, Mark 13, and Luke 21, and Revelation 1-19 as NOT having been fulfilled.

In fact, we see in AD 70 the fulfilment of prophecy, including most of Revelation. All that remains is Jesus final coming for resurrection & judgment. Our task is, in Jesus name, to serve him faithfully, not knowing when he will return. Rather that cut & paste, I will quote Jesus himself stating his own Preterist teaching:

Mark 13:28 Now learn a parable of the fig tree; When her branch is yet tender, and putteth forth leaves, ye know that summer is near:

29 So ye in like manner, when ye shall see these things come to pass, know that it is nigh, even at the doors.

30 Verily I say unto you, that this generation shall not pass, till all these things be done.

 

31 Heaven and earth shall pass away: but my words shall not pass away.

32 But of that day and that hour knoweth no man, no, not the angels which are in heaven, neither the Son, but the Father.

33 Take ye heed, watch and pray: for ye know not when the time is.

34 For the Son of Man is as a man taking a far journey, who left his house, and gave authority to his servants, and to every man his work, and commanded the porter to watch.

35 Watch ye therefore: for ye know not when the master of the house cometh, at even, or at midnight, or at the cockcrowing, or in the morning:

36 Lest coming suddenly he find you sleeping.

37 And what I say unto you I say unto all, Watch.

 

We need therefore to consider carefully the details of the Olivet prophecy, & Revelation & other Apostolic prophecies to see how they ARE fulfilled in the destruction of Jerusalem & the temple. Some aspects of the prophecies need careful study, comparison with OT prophecy & OT judgements, but you will find a clear fulfilment of the NT prophecy in the destruction of Jerusalem. Why "cherry pick" the dubious writings of the EFCs when we have Scripture? .

.............

But since the issue has been raised again, I will post the response I gave to this from our website:

 

The Date of the Book of Revelation

Of the many objections I have against the 3 views, the early dating of the book of Revelation seems to me a blatantly dishonest and inconsistent interpretation of history and the Bible’s internal evidence for a late date (i.e. AD 95). Preterists such as Hank Haneggraff cherry-pick historians in that the “early fathers” are useful in supporting some of their apologetic claims for the validity of the Bible and early developed doctrines, but disgard them as reliable when their writings are in contradistinction to their eschatology.

If Revelation was written after AD 70, that destroys all eschatological views that view Daniels 70th week, Jesus Olivet discourse in Matthew 24, Mark 13, and Luke 21, and Revelation 1-19 as having been fulfilled in AD 70 and demonstrates that all of Revelation is yet future.

Evidence For the Late Date of  Revelation

*Iraneus (AD 120-202)who was a disciple of Polycarp who was a disciple of John. Iraneus holds that John wrote Revelation during the end of the reign of Domitian who did not begin his reign until 81 AD and was killed in AD 96.

*Clement of Alexandria (AD 150-215), Tertullian (AD 160-220), Victorinus (AD 304), Eusibius (AD 260-340), Jerome (AD 340-419).

Although these men were not always doctrinally correct, their citations of John writing Revelation while on the Isle of Patmos under Domitians reign is a matter of recorded history not doctrinal exegesis.

.........

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My comments:

First of all, my "cut and paste" were my own writings. Would it have been any different had I manually typed out my own article to say what I would have said anyway?

 

And yet in response to someone that referred to your preterism, instead of referring to Jesus, you referred to Gary Demar.

 

When I wrote "IF", that was a rhetorical statement because everything that I wrote that followed that was based on the proven premise that Revelation was written after AD 90.

 

And no, I don't cherry pick early church fathers, I just know the difference between a historical statement and a doctrinal one. Just because some of the early church "fathers" were incorrect about their doctrine does not mean they were incorrect about dates, times and places. If a Jehovah's Witness tells me that someone is breaking in my house, I am not going to disregard the statement simply because his doctrine is off. But what preterists do is they refer to early church fathers when it supports their views on certain eschatology schemes doctrinally, and the disregard the very same "fathers" when they ALL verify the dates and times of events of history.

 

And the statement you making that belief in the rapture has somehow stifled the gospel is pretty bold consider that the majority of all independent Baptist churches believe it, and I defy you to show me one denomination on earth that has a greater emphasis on soul winning that the independent fundamental Baptists.

 

The Arabs are not the only ones see that see "Crusades" as "Christian". Read any 5th grade history book. Israel centered teaching has resulted in rejection of the gospel and caused suffering of indigenous Christians elsewhere? That is a loaded statement with absolutely no basis in fact.

 

And considering that I not only answered all 2 of your Biblical references, but posted my response as a preemptive rebuttal to any argument that I knew was coming about Revelation, none of the points in which you have refuted in this thread or any other, this is as far as I need to go with the rest of the response.

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I was also waiting for someone to bring this passage up because I know it's familiar to everyone, but:

 

"And then shall that Wicked be revealed, whom the Lord shall consume with the spirit of his mouth, and shall destroy with the brightness of his coming:" 2 Thess 2:8. 

 

 

I would have to say this verse with Rev 19 is pretty clear and shows that Psalm 149 is a different context.

Dr James,

 

Revelation 14:14-20

14 And I looked, and behold a white cloud, and upon the cloud one sat like unto the Son of man, having on his head a golden crown, and in his hand a sharp sickle.

15 And another angel came out of the temple, crying with a loud voice to him that sat on the cloud, Thrust in thy sickle, and reap: for the time is come for thee to reap; for the harvest of the earth is ripe.

 16 And he that sat on the cloud thrust in his sickle on the earth; and the earth was reaped.

17 And another angel came out of the temple which is in heaven, he also having a sharp sickle.

18 And another angel came out from the altar, which had power over fire; and cried with a loud cry to him that had the sharp sickle, saying, Thrust in thy sharp sickle, and gather the clusters of the vine of the earth; for her grapes are fully ripe.

19 And the angel thrust in his sickle into the earth, and gathered the vine of the earth, and cast it into the great winepress of the wrath of God.

20 And the winepress was trodden without the city, and blood came out of the winepress, even unto the horse bridles, by the space of a thousand and six hundred furlongs.

 

Fire doesn't cause bleeding but swords will. I believe Psalm 149 is talking about Armageddon because its saint in heaven who are given swords to kill the heathen as it is written.

 

Habakkuk 3:11-13

11 The sun and moon stood still in their habitation: at the light of thine arrows they went, and at the shining of thy glittering spear.

12 Thou didst march through the land in indignation, thou didst thresh the heathen in anger.

13 Thou wentest forth for the salvation of thy people, even for salvation with thine anointed(((Saints))); thou woundedst the head out of the house of the wicked, by discovering the foundation unto the neck. Selah. 1

Edited by Eric Stahl

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