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More Ohio Pastors Allow Armed Church Security

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As far as Christian's taking up arms against the state, as in the Roman Empire, isn't that what our

Christian Founding Fathers did to free themselves of the power of King George?

 

I don't believe for one second that the Christian's in Roman times, voluntarily walked upto Caesar

and said "Throw us to the lions." Caesar, like so many dictators today, including Obama, made

certain that Christian's didn't have any rights, or in the least, made it a goal to ultimately render

the legal rights and other protections of Christians.

 

I don't think persecution for the sake of Christ, and revolution against government for non-religious reasons, fall into the same category. :twocents:

 

I know your first question is rhetorical, but that's actually an issue I'd like to sort out. Was it correct for Christians to raise their hand against established authority? No matter how corrupt that authority was?

 

There seem to be several different categories of armed 'resistance' that need to be defined.  

1. Resistance against personal attack for non-religious reasons (i.e. self defense)

2. Armed resistance against persecution for the sake of Christ

3. Defense against aggressor nations

4. Revolution against corrupt government

 

The first appears to be allowed in Scripture, as it tells us that he that provideth not for the needs of his household is worse than an infidel. Protection & security is definitely a need.

 

The second - I don't think I believe this to be appropriate. If I had children... maybe I'd think differently and classify it more under #1. But for myself at least, it seems that if God has allowed persecution for His Name's sake, He will provide and protect - or give grace to endure. Makes me think about Peter striking off that servant's ear in the Garden of Gethsemane...

 

The third falls under honoring the king and self-defense. I believe it is completely appropriate to take up arms in the defense of your country. This is not the same thing as being the aggressor nation!

 

The fourth is what I'd like to figure out! Your heritage and culture (and our own, as we tend to adopt a good deal of American thought) has taught you that such rebellion, if undertaken for 'good' reasons, is appropriate and right. But is it, truly, Biblically?

 

As far as the OP, the question is whether that falls more under point 1 or 2.  I'm thinking that most gunmen that attack churches in this country are probably not seriously persecuting them for the sake of Christ - they've just gone kooky.  It would be rather uncomfortable to visit a church with visibly armed guards, though.  

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The only thing I will say in response to tech is that many men who called themselves Christians have done many things.
They are not our yardstick.
The Bible is.

I also don't think the early Christians sat by quietly.
I know that Jesus would not have been able to quietly walk up and turn over the money changers tables. The money changers surely would have resisted. How Jesus did that without sinning I do not know.

But appealing to history alone will not give Biblical justification to any position or stand.

Edited by DaveW

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I know that Jesus would not have been able to quietly walk up and turn over the money changers tables. The money changers surely would have resisted. How Jesus did that without sinning I do not know.
 

 

Righteous anger is not sin.

 

As for the money changers, Divine Providence likely kept them still or was it that brawler Peter?

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In the Old Testament, we see several examples of God telling the Israelites to commit genocide. Complete extermination of a people. Why? Because if they were permitted to remain, they would become as a thorn in the side of Israel and lead her astray, as history has proven. Now why would Jesus, being God, all of a sudden "change His mind" about the use of violence? Yes, the Lord said to turn the other cheek and to not return evil for evil, but was that a command to never again take up arms in defence of yourself and others?

 

I find it difficult to wrap my head around how God would just change His mind 2000 years ago. If a person is hateful to you, says mean and rude things, steals from you, lies to you, gossips about you; all these things we are to forgive, and not return evil for evil. If a person is intent on causing serious bodily harm or trying to actively kill you or another, yes we are to forgive them, but the fact still remains that actions will have consequences, in this case about 3-5 to the chest.

 

The Bible says that those who live by the sword, die by the sword. An armed robber, rapist, murderer, etc. live by the sword. That is all that occupies their minds. A Christian who carries, either open or concealed, is not living by the sword, he just has one ready for use if the need were to arise. And lets be realistic. The vast majority of the time (I dare say 9 out of 10, but I don't have any statistics to back that up) if you were to pull a gun in self defense you don't even have to use it. Usually the criminal runs off because he doesn't want to get killed either, and then goes off to find an easier target. I personally know a gentleman who has simply displayed (didn't draw, simply moved his coat to make his gun visible) his weapon, and the sketchy people circling the gas station eye-balling him and his wife and children immediately drove away. They didn't want any of that action.

 

So let's face the facts. Very few people are on the fence with this issue. They are either on one side or the other. Both sides use scripture to justify their position, and that is good. We should always use scripture to justify a stance we take. But is this not an issue of conscience and liberty? The person who uses their firearm knows that they will be held accountable for their actions in Heaven, just as the person who refuses to have anything to do with firearms. In the end, we must live our lives to the best of our ability, with the Bible serving as our guide.

Edited by Fixation

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Hello salyan.  You said (in part):

 

 "It would be rather uncomfortable to visit a church with visibly armed guards, though. "

 

That's a valid point. That's why our fellowship has armed parishoners with concealed carry. By arming ourselves (but

not advertising it) makes most bad guys think twice. And we rotate so a smart bad guy doesn't ultimately figure out a

pattern. I come form a law enforcement and military family, so I know a thing or two about security. A little too much.

 

I don't know if you've heard of  "Security Technology Executive" magazine, (which is among many law ennforcement and

military publications I get each month in the mail) the Apr. 2013 edition has a feature on "When Force Is Required" (p.28).

 

There are the "hands-on" security personnel who break up fights, tackle shoplifters and will not hesitate to use deadly

force aganist an active shooter walking into your church or mine.

 

The "hands-off" security try to use tactful but somewhat firm verbal persuasion to get people to comply with the rules.

Their uniforms can be blazers and slacks.

 

Our armed people wear everyday suits and ties but we do not look forward to shooting anybody. We will if they create a danger to all of us and escalation becomes necessary. We evacuate the others while closing the distance between the shooter and others.

 

Believe me when I tell you no one wants to see anyone get hurt or killed. We all hope to avoid this.

 

_________________________________________________________________________________________

 

"Everyone wants to be the tough guy, but no one wants to pay the price."

-Actor (and real life Reserve Sheriff's Deputy) Steven Seagal

 

 

 

 

Edited by Tech45ACP

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Saved up for three years (I also paid my bills while saving up and my

tithes) and I just purchased one of those horrible "assault" rifles, modern

but classic AR-15. One sqeeze. One shot. No rat-tat-tat-tat-tat-tat-tat....

as all the anti-gun types would have you believe. I already have the

corresponding 30-round magazines (mistaken for "clips") and a invitation

to an area range owned by a law enforcement officer who doesn't like Obama!

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